Game Thread: Knicks vs. Hawks- 4-11-08

by Seth on Apr 11, 2008 6:32 PM EDT in Game Threads

I gotta run. Knicks and Hawks. Bound to be epic. Later.

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Sons O Bitches

Now we remember how to lose... We're gonna need some Ewing-esque luck now!

by HUSTLE HARDER on Apr 11, 2008 9:53 PM EDT 0 recs

I'm sorry to say this, but I sincerely hope (!) that the lottery will play out like last year (even if no talent in the draft matches last year's potential of Oden, Durant or even Green) and that tanking and the "it's okay or even considered useful to loose"-mindset will come back and bite the collective fan-base in its broad rear.

Now you can start and hate on me, or curse me as a "non-fan" or some bulldrek like that, but to me it's about going out, giving it all and in the end hopefully GET SOME Ws!

Cya Wraith

by wraith on Apr 13, 2008 6:11 AM EDT up 0 recs

Madness!

I'm sure you believe your point of view reflects some sort of higher level of basketball integrity or whatever, but that makes ZERO sense from a practical perspective.

Would you have been happier this season if the Knicks had won say, 28 games instead of 23? Wins this late in this lost season are completely meaningless! Unless Walsh is able to fleece some other team this off-season, the only way our squad is going to get markedly better any time soon, is if we're lucky enough to draft a player that turns out to be a star. There are no guarantees with anything, but it goes without saying that the closer you are to the top of the draft, the more likely you are to pull something like that off.

We're all fans here, but I want the Knicks to get some W's CONSISTENTLY, not meaninglessly. 50 win seasons used to be the norm around here, now they're a distant memory. The ONLY way we're going to make that kind of improvement is with a talent transplant, these guys here now aren't making it happen it by themselves. This squad needs new blood in the WORST way!

The Draft Lottery exists for a reason, so that the league can achieve parity by strengthening the weaker teams. Ask San Antonio about using the lottery to your advantage after a lost season. There may be no apparent Tim Duncans in this draft, but (with the exception of a few nice brief stretches from Marbs) D Rose is a LOT better than what we've had in years from the PG position.

David Stern isn't handing out brownie points to losing teams that refused to examine young talent and played all their starters long minutes at the end of the season. No one's deliberately TRYING to lose (except maybe in Miami). You have to see the forest for the trees dude. I couldn't care less about getting a W at this point, I want the Knicks to become WINNERS again, I think we all do.

by HUSTLE HARDER on Apr 14, 2008 10:38 AM EDT up 0 recs

Madness? This! Is! NBA! ;)

Naw, you got some key points in your analysis wrong, first and foremost that I believe in any kind of integrity in any kind of business environment.

To understand the points I was trying to make, you have to leave your pu-pu-platter of an Knicks-NBA-season and look at leagues with a relegation system aka leagues where losers really lose something e.g. the rights to play on a high level.

I agree, that "new" blood is necessary. I disagree that by losing consistently the "new" blood of Collins, DLee, Dolph or any of the other "less than 3 years in the league"-grunts will do any better anytime soon anywhere. And that's where I'm taking my point to: You want young players to learn... but what they are learning right now is, that they and their actions don't matter anyway, AND THAT THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO LOSE!
Way to build a winning team... ('cause a winning team is MORE than one talented player and crap around him. Don't think so? Ask Seattle. Ask Memphis prior to dealing Gasol...)

The ONE, SOLE, thing drawing me to NBA basketball wasn't NYK winning vs the Heat or something like that. It was the HEART, the FEROCITY and the NEVER EVER EFFING GIVE UP, GIVE IN or GET OUT OF THE WAY. It was relentless, gutsy, "we're going to win this or going down trying really hard" basketball. Nothing you will see from this team anytime soon not least because of their losing is going to be helping mentality, groomed and harbored by the whole organization and its mentality. It's a loser mentality and it's hard to shake off.

Maybe my little rant came like 8 weeks to late... but it takes some time to get on my nerves enough so I type something as "aggressive" as these postings.

Cya Wraith

by wraith on Apr 14, 2008 1:35 PM EDT up 0 recs

So if it's not about integrity...

It's about the Knicks being The Little Engine That Could? I think I'm following you overall, but you've lost me in a few spots.

Firstly, we ARE talking about the NBA, not some other league with different rules, so I don't understand your point there.

Secondly, I think losing consistently is what we're trying to get AWAY from. This season fell in the toilet months ago, you think the players, young and old, don't understand that? That's why you see the half-assed efforts. Playing younger cats doesn't communicate that they don't matter, just the opposite. Giving the rooks some late season burn lets them know that the vets didn't get it done, and if they want to be part of the future, now's the time to show off that potential. Developing young talent isn't tanking, it's just conceeding that potential future large long-term gains outweigh small short-term ones. Now I personally want them to lose every game at this point, because I've got a boner for Derrick Rose, but it's not like they're out there not defending, missing shots, and turning the ball over on purpose. Besides, they hustled their behinds off and showed a ton of "heart" more or less last season, and where did that get us? 33 wins is where it got us, and I'm sick of it!

The NBA isn't like the NFL, where a team can use force of will and sheer determination to beat apparently superior opponents (see: SuperBowl XLII, New York Giants). There are too many games in the NBA, and over the course of the season the most talented and well coached teams are going to be the most successful 99 times out of 100. The Knicks are not losing because of any negative mentality they have (or lets just say it's WAY down the list of their issues). We're losing because we have a terribly flawed and mismatched roster with no on court leadership. No amount of positive thinking is going to turn these guys into contenders, the roster has to be changed.

I do think we have SOME talent here, the cupboard is not completely bare. We just need guys that can do some of the things that the guys we have can't or won't. Which is why I think adding one or two talented guys (and subtracting one or two others) and new leadership could turn this team into a 40 plus win unit in the not too distant future, unlike the situations in Seattle and Memphis. Every season is a potential new beginning, we can create a new mentality starting with training camp of the 09 season.

I dig the 300 reference, but remember all 300 of those never say die Spartans were slaughtered in the end by the Lakers, I mean the Persian army. We don't need a better attitude, NEARLY as much as we need better soldiers.

by HUSTLE HARDER on Apr 14, 2008 4:10 PM EDT up 0 recs

Force of will

My point with the "other league" reference was and is, that teams can't lose on purpose as in the NBA and that is a friggin' good thing. (Look at any football, 'scuse me, soccer league in europe).

For "the young uns" getting burn: Nothing against it, but they are supposed to lose. And hell they'd be too daft to be playing on a team I support if they don't get that idea and expectation.

I totally agree in the roster change departement. I just don't agree in the method. NYC is one of two places people'd "murder" to play basketball in. Even with the crap they call roster trades and free agents would, should and will be possible. As soon as those front office cancer are history as in bye-bye.

As you are tired of losing I am tired of "potential" / brink teams. It's like a March Madness Bubble dancing near a hot prick all the time. Bursting as soon as starting. Not my cup of tea.

as for the 300 ref: Who is remembered nowadays in history and regarded as heros? Or... what about the Alamo? Just askin' ;)

Cya Wraith

by wraith on Apr 14, 2008 6:46 PM EDT up 0 recs