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2010 or Bust?


From the moment Donnie Walsh arrived in New York, his mission statement has been to create cap space and pay a kings' ransom come the 2010 free agency season. Now most people agree that money alone isn't enough to attract a big time free agent, they'll have to at least have some potential stars on the time who the incoming free agents believe can help them win a title.

While the cap space has been cleared for 2010 .... who are the building blocks on this team, those potential stars of tomorrow? 

Before people go ahead and skip the rest of this post to start bashing Walsh and caps locking their chant of fire D'Antoni! Lets be real here a second. The task that Walsh and coach D'Less (as some like to label him) were given was near impossible to begin with. Not only did they have to rebuild this team into an enticing future contender, in order to attract free agents, but they had to clean up Isiah Thomas huge mess, and at the same time make the playoffs! 

Are you kidding me! 

Thomas's mess is so huge that no GM/Coach should be expected to come in here and be competitive &/or attract high profile free agents while they clean up the toxic waste that Thomas left behind. That's too much to ask of even guys like Pat Riley! 

Let's recap Thomas' career highlights before we delve into the weaknesses of the current regime. In his first year with the team, 2004, Isiah Thomas pulled the trigger on what shall always be remembered as the worst move of his (co-called) career, if not the worst move in Knicks' history. On January 5th, 2004, Thomas traded for Stephon Marbury, giving up not only New York's 2004 first-round pick, but their 2010 first-round pick as well.

The 2004 pick ended up being the 16th selection in the draft, exactly one spot ahead of where Josh Smith of the Atlanta Hawks was selected and four spots ahead of where Orlando's Jameer Nelson was drafted. While the draft order for 2010 is yet to be determined, all indications are that 6'4 star caliber point guard John Wall will be the #1 pick in what is expected to be a loaded draft! For those of you who keep complaining that the Knicks play no D, John Wall is an excellent shot blocker at the 1.

In 2005 Thomas chose to draft Channing Frye out of Arizona with the 8th pick, two picks ahead of Andrew Bynum. For those of you who complain that the Knicks have no center and lack height, that's why. Also of note is that Indiana's stat foward Danny Granger was taken with the 17th pick, a whopping 9 picks after Frye!

That season Thomas swapped picks with the Chicago Bulls in the Eddy Curry deal, this after Curry was found to have a heart condition that he refused to let the Bulls medical staff examine closely. That pick that he gave away ended up being the 2nd pick in the 2006 Draft. LaMarcus Aldridge of the Portland Trailblazers was taken with the pick but Brandon Roy and Rudy Gay could also have been drafted. With the 20th pick in the draft Thomas selected Renaldo Balkman, one pick ahead of Boston's Rajon Rondo. With the 29th pick Thomas selected Mardy Collins, eighteen spots ahead of Utah's Paul Millsap.

During Thomas' last draft with the New York, he swapped picks with Chicago again. The Bulls ended up having the 9th pick in the draft. With the 23th pick Thomas selected Wilson Chandler, one pick ahead of Portland's Rudy Fernandez and three picks ahead of Houston's Aaron Brooks.

On top of his failings in the draft, Thomas bloated the Knicks payroll to $130,000,000 dollars annually, with ugly contracts to Marbury, Curry, James, Jeffries, Randolph, etc. That much money was being payed for a team that never won more then 39 games in a single season. 

Based on the above evidence, the reason why this team had zero building blocks when Walsh arrived was because of Thomas' complete incompetence when it came to drafting, trading for, or signing talented players, not to mention his horrible coaching. 

So before you start burning images of Walsh/D'Antoni in effigy and spouting anything remotely close to praise for Thomas stop, because that man deserves none. Much of what is wrong with the Knicks is still Thomas' fault, though I agree with those who blame the owner for hiring and keeping the lousy guy. 

Now that we have established that Walsh and D'Antoni deserve a little slack because of the fowl state the franchise was in when they arrived, lets start picking their game plan apart to see why it does or doesn't work. 

First the good; so far so good with the Gallo selection, he has proven himself to be a potential match-up problem for teams, ala versatile foward Hedo. Douglas is showing lots of potential to be a capable PG for the team, the trade for Larry Hughes seems to have given New York a veteran ball distributer, who plays pretty good defense and is only 30 years old. 

While I don't like the straight up trade of Crawford for Harrington, Al does create more miss matches then Crawford could, plus they both score about the same. Al can take most front court players off the dribble and has long range, while Crawford wasn't strong enough to handle the bigger shooting guards in the league. The trade of Darko for Quentin was great, simply because Quentin was horrible and the Knicks need size and shot blocking down low.

While D'Antoni's defense coaching skills leave something to be desired, he has shown he is a brilliant offense coach, leading this terrible squad last year to high marks offensively, and getting more out of low draft picks David Lee, Nate Robinson and Wilson Chandler then anyone thought possible.

Now the bad; Despite all of D'Antoni's perceived brilliance in the offensive game, he has made decisions that just baffle the mind. Why in the world does he play Jarred Jeffries, at all, when he has no post moves, no jump shot, no ball handling skills to break defenders down, barely plays any defense and can't block shots? The man can't even handle a pass and D'Antoni complains that Darko has no offensive game. WHAT?!!

David Lee is undersized at the 4 and it shows as he can't stop opposing forwards from picking him apart down low. He has virtually no post moves, can't play defense and does not have a reliable jump shot with no 3 point range. Given the potential shown by draft picks Gallo and Douglas, I give a lot of credit to the talent scouts that Walsh is using and therefore have high hopes that Hill can play as well as Douglas and Gallo have.

If these three recent draft picks are to be the building blocks that New York has been lacking during the dark ages (2004-2007) when why in the heck is Hill not being given any playing time? D'Antoni's excuse for this has been that Hill has a lot to learn on the defensive end. Like David Lee is an all-defensive team selection? If Hill is lacking in defensive knowledge how is he supposed to learn keeping the bench seats warm?

From what we've seen, Hill has a good mid-range jumper, can rebound, at least showed shot blocking skills in college and hustles as much as Lee. So why play the much smaller Lee when you might have a better option in Hill? David Lee cannot be the PF of the future for New York for no other reason then Lee and his agent are asking for at least $10 mill a year, which is more money they any Knick is worth right now. Harrington is good for New York off the bench, he regularly takes opposing big men off the dribble, being much faster then most, and attacks the rim well with teams having to respect his 3 point range.

Gallo is proving himself to be a very good Small Forward, with the potential to be as effective as Hedo in the future, at the very least. Why then is D'Antoni not running the offense through Gallo? It's not like New York has a better option, with Gallo's skill/height combo creating miss matches that no other Knick can create. Why just leave him parked at the 3 point line all game long? Questionable coaching right there from Mike.

Lets face it, the Knicks have no other option at the 2 besides Larry Hughes. Nate Robinson is the Knicks best scorer and a true slashing shooting guard in skill/play style but his 5'9 frame is way to small for that position. Tony Douglas has ideal height for PG at 6'1 but is also far to small for the 2 spot. Duhon can't shoot, can't slash, can't play and is to small for the 2, so that just leaves the 6'5 Hughes as their only option so why does he not get more playing time?

Larry Hughes is their best option at the PG position, but if he plays the 1 then shooting guard is left vacant, so that leave Douglas as the starting 1 with Nate's great scoring ability as a nice boost off the bench at that position, though his Allen Iverson style of play does leave the rest of the team out of sync. Duhon is, in a word, horrible and should never take playing time away from Douglas, Hughes, or Nate. He routinely does not see the open man, unless he runs the pick and roll which he never runs enough, and he completely misses the open man in the fast break. He often pulls up for 3 pointers three or four feet beyond the arc, pulls up for three pointers off the fast break and seems unwilling to slash into the paint.  

Time for the ugly; New York's inability to move up during last years draft, knowing full well they do not have a pick in the first round of the up coming draft, is inexcusable. Wilson Chandler has proven himself to be a bad player. He has no 3 pointer, lacks a good jump shot, has no effective post moves, doesn't have the size or strength for PF, the height for Center, the shooting touch for SG, and he doesn't defend all that well. Gallo is a better option at the small forward spot so he's no good there ... why didn't they trade him for that 4th pick from the Wizards again? 

All they had to do was take an ugly contract from the Wiz, and give them Chandler and they could have drafted Curry, Rubio, whoever they wanted and still would have been able to draft Hill at 8! This plan to conserve cap space for a 2010 draft class that may or may not happen depending on the state of the cap space, when/if guys leave their current team and IF they even want to come play for a bad Knicks, is as dumb a strategy as I've ever heard because their are far to many if''s involved, while moving up to the 4th pick in the draft, while keeping the 8th, was a given. 

The play time Jeffries & Duhon are receiving is inexcusable, since neither player is any good. If D'Antoni is choosing to play them then he is a fool and I don't believe he is, so that means that Walsh is directing D'Antoni to play Jeffries, Duhon, Curry, etc., heavy minutes to drum up their trade value. That is insane since Jeffries and Duhon have no trade value to drum up and Curry's contract is far to large for his skill set.

Given everything I've said, and I known I just drowned you all in text but bare with me for the deluge is about to end. I think they should start Darko at the 5 for defense, Hill at the 4, Gallo 3, Hughes 2 and Douglas at the 1, with David Lee, Al Harrington, Nate Robinson and Eddy Curry playing heavy minutes off the bench.

Yea I know you all like Lee but he's too small, Hill is a better option at the 4. Yea I know you all hate Curry but he actually can score effectively in the low post, the only Knick who can in fact, and there is a snow balls chance in hell of trading him so might as well play him. 

Now I know you all want D'Antoni and Walsh to be fired, today in fact, but that won't change anything since this ship sank to the bottom of the ocean thanks to Thomas back in the early part of the decade and no one is bringing it back unless the Knicks have a good 2010 off season. So lets give them their chance and if the 2010 free agent experiment is a bust you can start chanting Fire Walsh, Fire D'Antonit to your hearts content, In fact I'll join you.

Poll
What should the starting 5 be?
Darko, Hill, Gallo, Hughes, Douglas
5 votes
Darko, Lee, Gallo, Hughes, Douglas
9 votes
Hill, Lee, Gallo, Hughes, Douglas
15 votes
Harrington, Lee, Gallo, Hughes, Douglas
5 votes
Lee, Harrington, Gallo, Nate, Duhon
0 votes
Jeffries, Lee, Harrington, Nate, Duhon
0 votes

34 votes | Poll has closed

1 recs  |  Comment 21 comments

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sigh....

thanx for rehashing the past 10 years…like we all need to know WHY this team sucks right now.

I personally don’t think its 2010 or bust.

I think they should take what’s there in 2010, whoever it may be, then even 2011 may be the year

I mean people look at the Celtics turnaround as a example of how it can be done. But they had Paul Pierce to start off. Also, they had Kendrick Perkins, who regardless of what you think of him (I think he’s a moron…argues every single call…) he’s a big C. And of course they have Rajon Rondo, who unlike what Boston fans want everyone to believe…is not a HOFer…but merely a very good PG.

The Knicks don’t have a Perkins, or a Rondo, or a Pierce.

Gallo is good, TD will be a good player, Jordan Hill possibly too. Who knows what they do with Nate, I hope they keep him cuz he’s a good scorer. I hope they trade David Lee for SOMETHING.

But 2010 might be another down year. I hope they find a way to get a whole team in 2010.

But the reality is they probably will not. They will probably have to get one player in 2010 and wait till 2011, when maybe Chris Paul will be available.

"It ain't over till its over"---

by FreeBradshaw on Nov 14, 2009 12:43 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Melo

will be a FA in 2011 if he declines his option. I actually think that he’s the most realistic shot we have at getting a real difference maker (i.e. someone who can be the top player on a championship team) over the next couple of years. Assuming, of course, that Donnie doesn’t blow every last bit of cap space that is available this summer on lesser players.

by Mount17 on Nov 14, 2009 7:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

yea that's my biggest concern...

I mean if he gets a Cav and a Heat……then OK. Even one of them and a Raptor…I’m good.

It would be even better if they got rid of Jeffires. Curry too…or maybe Curry shows a pulse getting back out on the court?

"It ain't over till its over"---

by FreeBradshaw on Nov 14, 2009 7:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Melo is a punk :\.

http://scribingaccountant.blogspot.com/
http://twitter.com/wmarv

by THEWILLY on Nov 15, 2009 11:53 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Absolutely!

      This is one of the most intelligent things someone has posted in a while. New Yorkers are supposed to be known for being the most knowledgeble fans. Well, lets not look like a bunch of morons when we agree to Walsh and D’Antoni’s plan and then exile them before they even have a chance to carry it out.
     I think this team sucks because it has sucky players on it. Our best players would only be bench guys on a contending team. We don’t even have a single player on our roster who would be a starter for a championship squad (maybe Gallo in the future, but not now). I love David Lee for all the crap that he’s put up with, and how he leaves it all on the floor, but he can’t be in our future. At the end of the day, you have to realize he’s only an awesome guy off the bench who wants starter type money. A starting power forward for a championship team can’t be horrible at defense, lack post moves, and have a suspect jumper. I’m sorry. He only looks like a starter because of all the other toilet bug players starting for the Knicks.
      Give Walsh the two or three years he needs to turn over the roster. Don’t say D’Antoni sucks because he’s losing right now. At least give him a chance to lose with NBA starter caliber players. Then we’ll see if he’s a good coach or not.
     Stop acting like a bunch impatient ignorant schmucks! If D’antoni and Walsh get fired, then Dolan is going to hire somebody who will go for the quick fix again, and we’ll be stuck in this wretched basketball purgatory forever. Stay the course, and wait till we get these bums off our roster.
     We’ve been waiting thirty six years for a championship!!! What? You can’t wait two or three years more to rebuild? Like if we fire them some guy in a white hat is going to ride through the door and coach these guys to a championship tomorrow! Idiots.
     Man, this should have been a fanpost. I think I will make it a fanpost. Sorry for the length.

by StarksMiddleFinger on Nov 14, 2009 1:09 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Excellent post. You get a rec.

As you can see I am a Bulls fan but love New York (not the Knicks). Walsh at least has a plan. It may not work but what can he do when Thomas traded away a possible 2010 #1 pick for a piece of garbage. Thomas did more damage to this franchise than any GM I can think of, even Kevin McHale. Giving away a #1 pick twice for a piece of garbage is beyond belief. The 2009-2010 Knick season will be the defining moment in Thomas’ legacy of ruining a great franchise.

by chgobr on Nov 14, 2009 1:37 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

we got no luck either

especially when it comes to the draft. I mean not only do stars get picked behind the Knicks’ pick…but they had a shot to get the #1 overall with Derrick Rose…and the Bulls got it.

"It ain't over till its over"---

by FreeBradshaw on Nov 14, 2009 1:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Agree

I understand and agree that luck is an important part of succeeding in the NBA. But you need to put yourself in a position to get lucky. Not having a pick this year is the poster-child of NBA GM stupidity. My opinion is that you should pretty much never give up a first round pick, no less an unprotected 1st round pick. San Antonio got Parker and Ginobli with late picks. This demonstrates both luck and good talent assessment by San Antonio. There are many other similar examples. I understand the strong temptation to trade first round picks when you are rebuilding. However, it is fool’s gold.

I think Knick fans are among the best and most knowledgeable. I believe this year will be the worst and after next year you will have a first round pick and the journey to respectability will be in full flight. I hope it is OK for me to join the fray.

by chgobr on Nov 14, 2009 2:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

oh no doubt...

what TOM did was ludicrous and obviously backfired in the worst way possible.

Every year before that, the guy thought that if he trades for Eddy Curry or marbury or Steve Francis…that it would somehow work and the 1st round pick in the trade would be a lower one anyway.

THe only time the Knicks started rebuilding was last year with Walsh and Pringles, that’s it. Every year before that, there was on ‘rebuilding’ plan, it was to get better on the fly.

"It ain't over till its over"---

by FreeBradshaw on Nov 14, 2009 4:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

About Stephon Marbury.

Its easy to look quickly at Marbury being the worst decision for this team. Hindshight is 20 fucking 20 though. If you remember beack when they announced the trade, keep in mind a few things…

Marbury’s dream was to play for NY. He was absolutely ape-shit excited. SO WAS NEW YORK. We couldn’t wait to see how a motivated Marbury would take over our team and lead us deep in the playoffs. He has always been a tough guard, though the previous teams had not really won with him. But NOW he was playing in his hometown and had ‘comeback’ tattooed all over.

Also… we gave up a 2004 1st rounder and the 2010 1st rounder. THAT WAS 6 GODDAMN YEARS LATER!!!!! You think New York meant to have a bottom barrel team 6 years from then?! Hell no. It was a gamble..and they had 6 years to not fuck it up. It so happens that Marbury didn’t work out (I will partly hold Larry Brown responsible, as well as Stephon’s eccentricity) and Isiah brought on some other shit moves. But at the time of that particular trade, it was fucking exciting as hell!

by Chris Child's Fist on Nov 14, 2009 3:36 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Stephon Marbury

I remember when Steph was the only fun Knick to watch, and yes he was an entertaining scorer. He gave us all some nice highlights to watch for a little while, but so did AI in Phili and how did that turn out? Hell at least Allen lead his team to the finals.

Blowing two first round draft picks for him, knowing his history of not winning in NJ, MN, PHX, was not a gamble, that was putting bullets in all six chambers of a gun and then playing Russian Roulette. Still it’s not Stephon’s fault the Knicks sucked, sure he played shooting guard at the 1 but he was just a player trying to play for his hometown. Thomas is the fool who dealt away the future for two magic beans (Curry, Marbury) then wasted years waiting for something to grow out of them.

I agree with what FreeBradshaw said, the Knicks cannot just put all their hopes on a single free agency class, not when Chris Paul is clearly on his way out of New Orleans.

They need to trade everyone on that roster, except Hill, Gallo, and Douglas, and get whatever affordable pieces they can get out of those deals. Rome wasn’t built in a day people and a contending Knicks team will not be built in one either.

by 2010-NYK on Nov 14, 2009 3:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Marbury was a cancer everywhere he went.

He was a cancer on the Knicks too. That ain’t hindsight…trading for Marbury was always a dumb idea.

The whole NY thing wore off pretty quickly too.

Was Marbury the sole reason for the downfall?? No, it was EVERYTHING else. But aside from him being a NYer…him playing basketball for the Knicks was a horrible idea.

"It ain't over till its over"---

by FreeBradshaw on Nov 14, 2009 5:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm still on board with the plan...

They don’t have to make the playoffs to entice free agents. They don’t even have to win that many games. What they have to show is some young, exciting players that play with balls and intensity. And they have to upset a few great teams. Like for example, they need to have a game in which they play LA down to the wire, down two with 30 seconds left, and Toney Douglas steals the ball and Gallo buries a three at the buzzer for the win. They need one of those, and they need to blow out another great team. They just need to show flashes.

I realize they suck right now. It’s a bit surprising because it didn’t seem like they sucked this much last year. But I think teams have figured them out and are attacking their weaknesses. But I’m not that upset about it because I think there’s promise with Toney, Gallo, and maybe Hill. If they can do some nice things maybe someone will sign with them. They have started off awful, but a strong finish can change the whole outlook pretty quickly.

by fuhry on Nov 14, 2009 4:04 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

All aboard the plan ....

All great points fuhry, I agree completely.

The way I figure it, the Knicks need to win about 42 games in order to steal the 8th seed. That means they have to go 41-31 the rest of the way, to finish 42-40. Now I know they have stunk so far, but most of the first ten were winnable games, only the Heat/Bucks games were blowouts from the onset. Maybe managing ten more wins then loses the rest of the way isn’t so impossible as it may initially seem.

They have 4 against Boston, 3 against the Magic and 2 against both the Lakers and Nuggets. These represent the toughest games on their schedule.

They have 4 against NJ, 3 against Indiana, 3 against the Bobcats, 2 against the Grizz, 2 against the Wolves, 2 against the Bucks, 2 against the Kings and 1 against the Hornets. These are games they have to have because the rest of the schedule gets a little dicey.

by 2010-NYK on Nov 14, 2009 5:43 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

take a step back

now name one nba team that won a ring without homegrown talent. the whole idea of outbidding to get a free agent is nice and all but you need to grow your own talent throught the draft. thats one reason why 2010 isnt as important as how weve been doing in the offseason in 08 09 n next yr 2010

by karamjitm9090 on Nov 15, 2009 2:59 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

the NBA isn't the MLB

very few teams ‘build’ through the draft. A draft choice is nice, but generally, you get 1 a year. The teams that have won with ‘homegrown’ talent, that talent is generally not the center focus. The Celtics didn’t win the title because of Rajon Rondo and Paul Pierce (sure they helped), but adding KG and Ray Allen pushed them over the top. The Lakers may have had Kobe for his career, but their championships were won when they added Shaquille O’Neal, Pau Gasol, Lamar Odom, and almost with Gary Payton and Karl Malone.
The only team that has won a championship without really signing big free agents was San Antonio. but they are a small market team and their fans are a far cry from the impatient New Yorkers.
You won’t draft a championship team. You need a balance of both.

by Chris Child's Fist on Nov 16, 2009 3:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Draft vs Free Agency

I agree that drafting well is needed but the Knicks have no other choice but to rely on free agency since Thomas flushed their 2010 lottery pick down the toilet.

Besides look at the names of the potential free agents, it’s just too much talent to pass up.

C. Amare Stoudemire
PF. Chris Bosh
SF. Rudy Gay
SF. Lebron James
SG. Dwayne Wade
SG Joe Johnson

2011 free agent??? PG. Chris Paul?

Lets say that the Knicks only have enough cap for one max free agent this off season, with Curry and Jeffries coming off the books for the potential free agency of CP3 they might end up with a starting five to compete in 2012, comprised of homegrown talent and mercenaries.

C. Jordan Hill
PF. David Lee??
SF. Danillo Gallinari
SG. Lebron James
PG. Chris Paul
6th man. Tony Douglas

by 2010-NYK on Nov 17, 2009 12:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i definitely agree that you need a balance

but like all the teams you named they all grew atleast some talent. its harder to build talent then signing it so im just saying that we should focus on the hard part but with no lottery pick next year were screwed.

by the way man lol you named the spurs as the only team. how could you forget detriot lol they never signed any big free agent

by karamjitm9090 on Nov 16, 2009 9:17 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I forgot about Detroit...

but they did sign Rip Hamilton and trade for Rasheed Wallace and Chauncey Billups….

Gotcha bitch!! They fit the bill. lol

by Chris Child's Fist on Nov 16, 2009 10:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I find it comforting that no one voted for Duhon or Jeffries to be in the starting 5. :-]

Now if only D’Antoni could see things our way. :-[

by 2010-NYK on Nov 19, 2009 4:19 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

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