How accountable is Mike D'Antoni?
by Seth on Nov 8, 2009 8:44 PM EST
in Miscellaneous
54 comments
I could recap last night's game, but it'd just be a mixture of the usual nonsense and disgust at Dan Gadzuric's beard. Instead, I'd like to turn our attention to the coach. I rarely question coaching and management in this space because so much of that takes place behind the scenes and out of earshot. One thing strikes me, though, and I think it's something you guys have picked up on as well. D'Antoni gets very hot; he nearly throttled a referee last night after a foul on David Lee went unnoticed. We haven't really seen him let loose on his players, though. It's hard to say what goes on in the locker room, but from what we see on TV, D'Antoni has yet to hold his guys accountable in the form of scolding. With a team that's 1-6 and can't find any semblance of chemistry, that probably shouldn't be the case. I understand that D'Antoni is a "player's coach" and cares deeply about his squad, but something has to give. It doesn't have to be the coach himself yelling and screaming. It could be a quicker trigger on calling timeouts, or it could be more willingness to bench guys who are a step slow (which, to be fair, made an appearance last night). D'Antoni could even preserve his camaraderie with the players by having an assistant play the role of bad cop, like Doc in Remember the Titans. Can't you picture Herb Williams yelling "you're lookin' like a bunch of BUMS out there!" after a huge opposing run?
Anyway, to put poorly what Tommy expressed quite well, I'm of the opinion that D'Antoni's at fault not for his system, but for his motivational techniques. Just like Tommy, I saw Coach passionately preach defense throughout training camp. I don't doubt that his intentions are pure. It just seems like his message lacks a punch, and that's where a little anger might help matters. But that's just me. How accountable do y'all think D'Antoni is for this woeful start? Is it a matter of strategy, motivation, or something else entirely? Discuss the 'stache in the comments.
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u can only
do so much to motivate dudes who have their own motives…like next years contract…
looks at harrington and duhon
altho to his credit he did bench duhon after he blew 2 assignments in a row. I mean think of it if your d’antoni. The team leaders, as much as we may dismay it, are not lee and gallo. It’s Harrington and Duhon and Hughes. The same people we hate. You can’t shit on your team leaders this early in the season , no matter what they do.
Eventually you do, but you can’t do it this early, in front of the rest of the team. Sucks, but I would make the same decision.
www.recruitzero.com
i agree
to some degree D’antoni is accountable but hes not problem and you kan see that, he wants to win but when you have players who are looking to make themselves look good instead of trying to win games, its hard to get the message across…fuck it tho they’ll be gone and probably wont find much after this just bekuz they look so sorry
by IB on Nov 8, 2009 9:22 PM EST up reply actions
man
this shit with the c-k’s is off the bench
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yeah, all the good points are ignored after I come to the "kan"s and bekuz"s
by Chris Child's Fist on Nov 9, 2009 4:32 PM EST up reply actions
what parent
would ever buy a Tyrone Hill acton figure? i consider that psychological abuse
by Chris Child's Fist on Nov 10, 2009 11:08 AM EST up reply actions
this is why we needed oakley as an assistant coach
David Lee would be scared to death to go back to the bench after a missed defensive assignment.
also might not have resigned in new york
ny wouldn’t be such a desirable destination of practices included coach oak chokeslamming people because they were a week late on paying him the 500 dollar “missed rebound tax” he instituted for every player on the court who didn’t get a rebound.
by Rodger Sherman on Nov 9, 2009 12:24 AM EST up reply actions
Fire D'Antoni
D’Antoni is the problem. The identity of the pre-millenium Knicks was defense and toughness. While these traits had been on the wane anyway, hiring D’An officially ended that era. D’Antoni preaching defense is akin to Ron Jeremy preaching abstinence. It doesn’t matter how passionate the invocation might be, the audience won’t be able to believe its ears.
With the reputation of The Garden and The Knickerbockers, we should be able to find a better helmsman. Let D’Antoni go back out West, where things tend to be all sizzle and no steak. Hopefully, he’ll take the Rooster, Dark Man SuX, and Doo-doo-hon with him.
nah
these guys would not be able to hang with a rough and tumble team. their theoretical defensive stopper is jared jeffries and that dude is mad homotional. way too soft. pause.
besides with the way the rules have changed in the past few years, it benefits deft guards. no more hand checking makes the game harder for bruisers and easier for quick guys.
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Can't Hang?
I agree about the rule changes, but those have not completely removed defense from the game. Just the other day, Chris Douglas-Roberts tried to shake the Nets out of their malaise by calling them out for not standing-up for him after he took a hard foul on his way through the lane. Skip added-on afterward, by saying that the Nets were not playing with intensity. They let other teams get to the cup at will without so much as a cursory wave, while the Nets themselves cravenly accepted all manner of abuse at the other end.
Those same criticisms resonate with these Knicks. Defense can be a barometer for effort. If we use it to gauge the Knicks’ attitude, it seems like D’Antoni has lost these guys.
The theory that makes the most sense to me is that being a “players’ coach” and a proponent of the SoL offense has robbed D’Antoni of credibility in teaching or advocating the finer points of the game. Until they take those aspects of basketball seriously, the Knicks will continue to lose even games they have the talent to win .
Chris Douglas-Roberts
Has H1N1 so it doesn’t count.
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i thought it didn't count
cus the nets don’t count.
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that's right.
can’t hang. this team is soft. the difference between my criticsm and yours is that i don’t see “softness” as a characteristic the coach can change. it’s the players. maybe their mom’s should be the coach’s. then the coach’s could change it.
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D'antoni is not the problem
He shares responsibility for the shitpile the Knicks are just by virtue of his title, but he’s not the root cause. And I don’t know if I just got elaborately trolled by chin8tao, but hard-nosed defense hasn’t been seen at the Mecca for a long while now.
How short are our memories here? The players we have now are all for the most part players Walsh got in return when he was busy purging most of our roster of Isiah’s guys. Other than Lee, Nate, Chandler and Jeffries(Curry counts in recent years as much as Pavano did for the Yankees) what we’re putting on the floor is what the rest of the NBA gave us for doing the favor of taking our crap. That doesn’t excuse the deflating performance we’ve seen so far this season, but that’s more on the players not executing a proven system than a poor coaching job. I can’t believe I’d almost rather have Lee take one from mid-range than Chandler.
The next P&T T-shirt should say “Van Gundy Was Right”.
The Squad Ain't Great...
Sorry. Not trying to troll you. I don’t really come here enough to know the regulars and their stances.
Still, I don’t see how the Knicks even have a shot at winning most games, given that ’Antoni only coaches half the floor.
Honestly, I see Houston (without Yao and T-Mac) as a squad comparable in talent to the Knicks. Is the difference Adelman? Being woefully underinformed, I might be tempted to say it is. Anyone else care to voice an opinion on that one?
Houston is much more talented than the Knicks. Carl Landry is better than anyone on the Knicks. Battier plays defense and is efficient. Ariza is about average, which is much better than what we’re playing at SF. Brooks and Hayes have been very solid. Brooks is comparable to Nate, maybe. Hayes and Scola both rebound a ton, which is very important for winning. Maybe if the Knicks had anyone other than David Lee who could rebound, they’d win a few more games. If you match up the Knicks top 4 with the Rockets top 4, it might seem similar (though Houston still has an edge defensively and with rebounding). But when you get to the other guys, the Knicks are blown out of the water. Harrington, Chandler, Duhon, Jeffries. Team killers. Nate Robinson, David Lee, Gallinari = similar overall to their Houston counterparts.
Team Killers
I can admit that Houston has ZERO such team killers on its roster. You’re right. That may be the difference.
I can’t go along with the assertion that Houston is more talented, though. While it might seem counterintuitive, I do not believe that the stats and results speak directly to the talent of the respective rosters. In my opinion, Adelman is just getting more out of his guys and implementing a gameplan that gives his team a reasonable chance of success on any given night. D’Antoni is failing at both tasks.
I know people probably want me to shut-up about the “good ol’ days”, but that Knicks team from the ‘90s wasn’t so talented either. The players on that team outworked and outfought their opponents. With a team that tends to be outclassed at three or more positions most of the time, I think that’s the only way to go. D’Antoni seems to disagree. He seems to advocate shooting volume as the great equalizer. For my money, that’s why he’ll never win here.
If Mark Jackson got hired we'd have the same topic going right now.
Or Ewing. Or Oakley or whoever else was in the running to get hired. If any of you find a secret potion or magic spell that turns your shit into gold then send D’Antoni the ingredients, he could use it on this team.
And it doesn’t matter what the knicks WERE built around. That was 10-15 years ago when we had people that could play defense. D’Antoni is playing to this team’s strength, which is offense. I loved the old Knicks but people need to let go.
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is very aPeople seem to forget that “defense wins championships” didn’t win it for us either. Would I gladly take the Ewing era Knicks back? Of course, it’s better than this depressing excuse of a decade. But it’s time to stop pretending we still have an identity to build on. Trash is trash regardless of what the coach preaches. Remember who the last defense-first coach was? Does anyone want that man back?
I’m not happy with D’antoni’s refusal to give the young players more time, and even with Phoenix his bench management was questioned. But we are better off sticking to the plan instead of panicking and starting over again for the 100th time. Miracles don’t happen.
futhermore the knicks that actually did win a championship
were phenomenal passers and efficient scorers. they happened to play defense, but that’s the key that seperates the best from the rest.
defense wins championships sure, but you can’t win if you don’t score. latest evidence would obviously be the lakers. anyone who wants to call them a defensive team is out of their mind. they are good on defense, but their specialty is offense.
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Not the same topic
Jackson does not come with all the accolades and the suffocating arrogance that trail behind D’Antoni.
It would be a totally different set-up for Mark Jax. There would be an acknowledgement that there is a learning curve for any new coach in the NBA and that his hiring required a certain amount of on-the-job training.
Also, I disagree that D’Antoni plays to the team’s strengths. Aside from Harrington, this bunch does not have a legitimate, proven top-tier scorer. Gallinari might blossom, but he is not yet considered a major threat.
Given that the current Knicks generally are NOT amazingly talented guys who can shoot the lights out, what are their strengths? When I look at this group, I see some pretty good athletes. For that reason, bringing-in someone who can coach a tough defensive system actually would be the best way to play to their strengths.
i would hesitate
to call harrington a legitimate proven top-teir scorer. actually i wouldn’t hesitate, i would just never ever, under any circumstance say that. but let me see if i can figure this out…
you think everything is the coach’s fault because he is full of himself and blind to reality. no?
yet, the only things that any reporter talked about during training camp and pre-season, was how d’antoni (the coach) was preaching defense as the key to the team’s chances. seems odd. but, maybe i’ve had too much to drink this morning.
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This is the New York Knicks
We don’t bring in inexperienced coaches in New York. Nothing against Marc Jackson, but he stays an analyst in my view. D’Antoni has had success and came pretty well regarded. He didn’t win the championship in Phoenix, but I don’t blame that necessarily on him. you can still be an excellent coach without winning a title.
NYs problem is cleaning up the mess that has been the last 10 years. The bad contracts can kill you. They are bad contracts for a reason. You can’t just dump the players, nor can you just trade them for better players. You take less to get rid of them if you can. Its a BAD contract.
The issue now is a lack of motivation. Hard to single out Pringles for that. it will get better as we saw with TD last night over Duhon in the 4th. These guys know they won’t be here a year from now.
BTW, Phoenix played good defense. You didn’t notice it because they scored a shit-ton of points. They gave up a lot of points because the running game allowed teams more possessions.
by Chris Child's Fist on Nov 10, 2009 11:22 AM EST up reply actions
thats true
they were not a top defensive team, but in terms of point differential and things like points-per-100 possesions the suns were always effective. but you know they were playing to try and have 115 possesions in a game, when the spurs were out there trying to play closer to 85. if that doesn’t skew the face-value of the numbers game, i don’t know what does.
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?
Where is D’Antoni’s suffocating arrogance?
There wouldn’t be a learning curve for Mark Jax, people would be getting on him just like people are getting on Pringles right now. Everyone… EVERYONE accepted that this would be a rebuilding project last summer and atleast 75% of the people that accepted it are now jumping ship and panicking. Why are people realizing now that this team is bad? IT’S BEEN THIS BAD FOR THE LAST SEVEN YEARS.
The only strengths on this team are young players like Gallo and Toney and the more time invested in them, the better.
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Rebuilding?
This project has taken on the air of a demolition, not a rebuilding.
If you don’t see clues to D’Antoni’s arrogance, then maybe it’s just me. He certainly strikes me as extremely smug in interviews. Also, his handling of certain matters has seemed rather heavy-handed. The Marbury situation seems to be the most glaring. He told Marbury to get lost, then tried to bring him back on an ad hoc basis at his own convenience. Was that just D’Antoni taking a shot at a miracle to try to do what was best for the team, or did he really see no reason whatsoever why Marbury might be disinclined to return for a lame duck term at point guard for a coach who openly degraded him?
You might not like it hear it but..
Maybe the return of Curry will bring at least SOME semblance of an inside game and stop with the jacking up of 3 point bricks time after time down the court. D’Antoni’s system, if you want to call it that, just does not work with a team of journeyman, scrubs, and guys that are too green.
Seems to me, quiet as it’s kept, this team may not be good enough to sign a Lebron, no matter how much cap space they have. If you were him, would you want to sign on with this disaster? If the Knicks do not get either Lebron, or Wade ALONG WITH someone like Chris Bosh, they’d better not try palming of some second tier FA as the next coming. After putting up with all of this losing, and having to watch perhaps the worst Knicks team in my lifetime (and I’ve been a fan since ‘73). We have all been holding our noses in the hopes of some pie in the sky cap space. They’d better deliver, especially with no number 1 pick next year.
lee and curry actually makes sense to me
curry and jamal crawford on the pick and roll was a real weapon for us in curry’s only good season with the knicks. if lee was able to come in from the weak side (pause) on that play, he might actually increase his rebounding average.
i really want eddy to make it back out there.
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Criticisms of D'antoni
May be justified – I am not real happy with the coaching right now. But keep in mind we are very thin on the interior and the teams we faced have had the personnel and the smarts to attack that weakness. Personally, I think Lee is a bit small at the 4, let alone the 5.
I think it’s time for some addition by subtraction. Either via the coach going for the rooks or the trade route. I’d trade Harrington for Iverson and Duhon for Adam Morrison.
And I’d also forget about the ‘showcase Jeffries/Curry to trade’ route. I don’t think it’s going to work – it puts the coach in a tough position and it’s a morale killer. Screw it. Let Jeffries ride the bench and honestly try to get Curry back so we can have some size and skill on the inside.
i mostly agree
but i think you have to push Jeffries until at least Dec 15th, when you can trade guys just signed.
I think he has been playing well enough to get himself traded. And then if you can do that, you can start giving Hill a bunch more minutes.
Curry though should only get burn (if he every is ready) if he proves he should get it.
bite your tongue
…Adam Morrison??!! Please please please no. The idea of a guy his size with a good shot is far far far better than actually him. He wouldn’t help the Knicks at all.
by Chris Child's Fist on Nov 9, 2009 1:42 PM EST up reply actions
hey, he’s played well in 15 minutes this year. Is there any way we could trick Orlando into taking him for J.J. Redick?
Redick
I actually have been silently waiting for JJ Redick to get big minutes. I think hes a solid player. He can shoot, and he spent 2 years being the most hated guy in college (other than at Duke) and he STILL scored his points even when teams knew he’d get the ball. He aint thrilled in Orlando cus they dont have minutes for him. Though, for some reason, they wont trade him. Hes an interesting piece….
by Chris Child's Fist on Nov 9, 2009 4:09 PM EST up reply actions
Wake up, guys
Three people are killing the team. Duhon, Jeffries, Harrington. It might not be immediately noticeable because of the numbers they put up, but they are the main cause of the losses.
When they are on the court, they are outscored by 20-30 points per 100 possessions. Jeffries is shooting under 40% and doesn’t rebound. Duhon is shooting 25%! He wouldn’t even be a backup point guard on most teams right now. He doesn’t rebound well either.
Harrington has some decent scoring numbers, but he doesn’t rebound or play defense, and he kills the offense around him. The Knicks get outscored when he plays, and it’s not even close.
Wilson Chandler is the most overrated basketball player I’ve ever heard of. He is shooting just 34%, rebounding less, and turning the ball over more. I can’t believe the Knicks were offered a draft pick in exchange for him and didn’t take it. He belongs in the NBDL along with Gerald Green.
Nearly every other Knick has positive numbers, but those four guys really drag the others down.
By the way, Jordan Hill looks good in practice (except for leaving all of the buttons open in his pants), and played well in limited time. He should be starting with David Lee.
at
least wilson chandler plays defense. and this his third year…im pretty sure hes going to start driving to the basket now instead of popping jumpers all day,…..
usually when someone drives the player can kick it out to an open jumper or down low to a big man (which the knicks arent utilizing since curry is chilling and jordan hill is getting used to the nba) for an easy dunk….Remember Crawford and Curry..Crawford would alley oop it to curry and youd hear Clyde Frazier droppin rhymes all over the place.
by TO. on Nov 9, 2009 1:22 PM EST up reply actions
I think the whole idea that chandler plays defense is inaccurate too. Sure, he gets a few steals and blocks, but his assignment always puts up great numbers. http://www.82games.com/0809/08NYK10.HTM
And once again, we keep expecting him to finally improve, but his numbers are down this year, and he’s never shown any improvement.
Some Thoughts.
D’Antoni can’t go on a tirade 7 games into the season because if he does and the team continues to suck (likely), he’s in danger of losing the team completely. That would be a particularly bad thing as much of the team knows they will be playing elsewhere next season and “get mine” ball will fully set in.
As currently constructed, the Knicks are filled with players who are the dictionary definition of ‘replaceable assets". Thats not exactly expert analysis as any team with a winning % under .200 is inherentley replaceable, but I would not be upset at the jettisoning on any player on that roster save Gallo. I’ve never been a big fan of Wil, but in a season where he has a great chance to be an impact player, he’s reverted to the same passive and boneheaded style that has been his calling card since he got into the lig. Dude shouldn’t should 3s, even when he’s wide open because teams will live with a 20% 3 point shooter trying to beat them.
Which brings me to my last thought. This team cannot simply “take what the defense gives them”, because they are not versatile enough. If I’m a Knick opponent, I slouch off every player except Gallo and dare them to be a jumpshooting team. Even when the Knicks do drive to the tin, they kick it out for a 3 ball. Teams are bodying us down low and making us work to shoot 28 footers. Theres no mystery to why we suck, no easy buckets on O for a team with little D = 1-7.
"But when he saw it, he just put his hands up and they couldn’t give it to him. It just fell to the ground, I-I don’t, you know … So, that showed me he had great experience..." - Jeff Van Gundy
by Anthony Bonner's Subpoena on Nov 9, 2009 11:21 AM EST reply actions
Let's get real
You can’t squeeze blood from a turnip. Most of the starters on the Knicks would be second-teamers on most teams. The only one who would crack the starting lineup is David Lee. If you looked up “back-up point guard” in the dictionary, you’d see an illustration of Chris Duhon. I’d just as soon go with a guy like Marcus Williams.
He really has to be given a free pass for now.
I mean, there is not a single coach walking in that door that would win this season after all the crap that this organization has put on the floor.
Simply not happening.
If by next year, however way they can do it, they assemble a team that just might look like it can contend…and they still suck, well they its Pringles fault.
I really don;t undestand the criticism of him. I know coaches get fired for less, like when a team has basically 15 rookies, the team sucks, and they can the coach (why… I don’t know….)
This team has a few good young players, but those that surround and are the “veterans” are just the slop of the league.
People took it a little too seriously when Walsh ant Pringles say they want to try and make the playoffs this year. I mean c’mon…look who’s on the damn court first before you go blaming the coach.
DO WHAT JERRY HAIRSTON DO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Player's Coach
Isn’t this why D’Antoni is in NYC to begin with? If you were LBJ, DWade, CBosh, etc. don’t you want to lead the team and play for a “player’s coach”? I just figured D’Antoni was a lure for free agents to let them know they’d be running the show.
No such luck with the group we have now. Absent a smart leader (see: Steve Nash) to keep everyone dialed in, D’Antoni is pissing into the wind.
Give him a break for now…and let the players with expiring contracts know that selfish/lackluster play hurts their market value. It’s a season-long contract scrimmage for those guys.
the real thing to consider right now
if you ask me. is the fact that donnie walsh is not going to make a knee-jerk trade. just because we have had it, doesn’t mean he is going to make some trade just to jettison a few weak links.
i personally think that is stupid. but donnie don’t budge.
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D'Antoni
consider that D’Antoni had a much better squad in PHX and he did not lead any of those teams into the promised land. Could it B that those teams suffered from no D? We can all agree that the current Knick roster is very thin on talent. With Jamal Crawford gone, the only real scoring threat we’ve had in awhile, opponents can easily defend a bunch of players that have no real team chemistry.
Curry is a big body, and he has put up points in the past, but he’s not reliable and he’s prone to injury. If D’Antoni could sell these players on defense 1st, the scoring will follow.
He should study his roster and find each players strength and then try 2 make use of them.
The system that he used in PHX (and never won a championship with) won’t work here in NY
eh
the suns would have won a championship if half the team wasn’t suspended in that spurs series a few years back. also, when they were first making waves in the playoffs, joe johnson got dropped by some fool and broke his face in ten. they were never the same after those events.
check youtube for the suns vs tim donaghy drama. the calls in that series against the spurs are so dramatically bad that you have to wonder if david stern had money riding on that one.
thing is, the east was pathetically weak back then. the real test was the conference finals in the west, and the suns were there.
not that i even care. just saying.
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don't forget Amare's injuries....
The Suns had some bad luck too.
"It ain't over till its over"---
by FreeBradshaw on Nov 10, 2009 11:04 AM EST up reply actions
Phoenix played fine defense
They had guys who did what they had to do. It didn’t show up in the PPG as much because of the extra volume of shots opponents got due to extra possessions. Phoenix ran wild up the court. More possessions = more shots taken = more shots made = more overall points.
“He should study his roster and find each players strength and then try 2 make use of them.”
I think thats a very good idea, Nubian. Maybe D’Antoni just draws 5 names from a hat and tells them to go on the cout and just “get open”.
by Chris Child's Fist on Nov 10, 2009 11:31 AM EST up reply actions
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