Poll: It's time to assess Jonathan Bender.
by Seth on Jan 4, 2010 1:37 PM EST
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PrintAlan Hahn's most recent Knicks Fix is well worth a read. Hahn addresses Mike D'Antoni's rotational alchemy and evolution from players' coach to dictator. It's good stuff. For our purposes, though, this bit of housekeeping is of particular interest:
Will Jonathan Bender eventually prove D'Antoni right, as well? This reclamation project is struggling to find his game after a four-year layoff, but D'Antoni is committing a valuable spot in the rotation to him mainly because he believes this could be an investment for later in the season, when the Knicks hope to be playing for a playoff spot. The team has until Wednesday to decide whether they want to guarantee Bender's contract ($800K) for the rest of the season or put him on waivers. By Friday, all non-guaranteed contracts are locked in for the rest of the season.
It sounds like the Knicks plan to keep Bender around, as long as he feels he is physically able to keep the pace.
"We think that this is not only for right now, this is for the future," D'Antoni said of Bender last week. "He's the type of player that, if we can get him to a certain level, he'd be very, very valuable and we need to stick with him."
Y'all know where I stand on this. After initial distaste, Bender gangled his way into my heart in a matter of minutes. Since that point, I've watched Legs struggle through rose-colored glasses, standing atop a forthcoming t-shirt design. Bender's looked a little rusty since his adrenaline rush of a debut, having trouble with his dribble and repeatedly getting his close shots blocked. On the other hand, he's shown a decent stroke from outside, a good nose for boards, and willingness to to play defense, all of which count for something. Those contributions, as well as Bender's spellbinding pattern of movement on the court have me visually hooked and incapable of making reasonable judgments. Given my unnatural affection for him, it'd be wrong of me to give the final P&T assessment of whether or not Bender should stick around, so I'll leave it to all of you. Vote or I'll have Jonathan Bender bite you.
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i think "gangles"
is a proper noun.
twitter.com/aighttho
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by stingy d on Jan 4, 2010 9:59 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
that's my last name
"you're the Rod Thorn in my Chris Bosh side."
by Chris Child's Fist on Jan 5, 2010 8:39 AM EST up reply actions
There have got to be better options
He’s trying, but I don’t think he’s a piece on a team that’s actually contending. It’s funny, I used to post on a Knicks message board, and after last season, we were doing grades for every player, and inevitably, they would all be Bs or B+s, even a few A-s in there. And you realize—they’re B’s and B+s for what they are, but on a team that’s trying to build for the future, I’d rather have someone with real upside, who could actually contribute, and I’d take a half dozen NBDLers and give them 10-day contracts before guaranteeing this much to Legs.
NittanyWhiteOut.com. Arguably the second best Penn State blog I know of.
I want him on the team
He plays physical on the inside and doesn’t let himself get pushed around. He is hungry and wants to get back to his original form. I love this about him and that kind of attitude is infectious. As you can see the knicks are playing defense and they are competing in almost every game they play now. If we didn’t get off to that horrid 1-9 start who knows where this team would be.
Keeping character guys like “legs” are for the good of the TEAM. He is a lot better option then Eddy Curry.
I can't see any way that he's hurt the team.
He comes to play every game. More then I could’ve ever said for Eddy Curry, who has no idea how to be a NBA player (Eddy has no concept of the word “pass” in the post).
I like Bender. He’s a floor stretcher.
Actually, he’s a whole lot like Gallinari. WHen he was drafted he was probably the exacty sort of player, except I think Bender had a lot more athleticism coming out of HS.
I dunno if there’s better options out there..but he’s 7"0, plays his ass off..and given that he hasn’t played in the NBA in years and is ‘this good’, he probably will get better.
N8 !
Agree
Though I find myself skeptical that his knees will hold up. What I (and they) like about Bender is he can guard different types of players (bigs and smalls) and can play an outside game. It’s the versatility that really fits what they are doing.
I’d take a chance on the knees and keep him for the rest of the year.
i second that.
worst comes to worst, as the last guy in the rotation, we can rest him on back tp backs and things of that nature.
if he gets a little more comfortable he can spell harrington and/or jeffries in a pinch.
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by stingy d on Jan 4, 2010 10:04 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Bender has my vote
though i DO worry about his knees. But I dig his attitude. I have read that he is a positive attitude in the locker room, and I like having players like that, versus Larry Hughes, who is never afraid to publicly bitch (he has done it on every team he’s played for, not just us). On the ‘minutes played’ side though, I cannot help but want to give a few of benders minutes to Jordan Hill. He seems to shoot a high percentage when he is on the floor, which says he doesn’t take shit shots. And Hill looks like a hustler. We shall see, we shall see.
"you're the Rod Thorn in my Chris Bosh side."
by Chris Child's Fist on Jan 4, 2010 2:26 PM EST reply actions
So
Whats with his knees? Isn’t one of em bone on bone and he’s already missed time for it? I mean he’s still young enough and has few miles, but I wouldn’t offer him anything past a 1 year contract.
"But when he saw it, he just put his hands up and they couldn’t give it to him. It just fell to the ground, I-I don’t, you know … So, that showed me he had great experience..." - Jeff Van Gundy
by Anthony Bonner's Subpoena on Jan 4, 2010 2:30 PM EST reply actions
he was forced to retire because of em
no harm in garunteeing the rest of the season.
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by stingy d on Jan 4, 2010 10:06 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I'm voting to keep him based on nostalgia.
He plays like it’s the 90’s again! You could see a guy like that out there with Mase, Oakley, and Patrick. Throwing elbows as he pulls down rebounds, physical defense, sweating too much, wearing knee pads. His shorts are a little higher than everyone else’s, and there’s something about the way he screws up his face that reminds of the old days. I just get a warm fuzzy feeling when he shuffles down the floor. He may not be a difference maker, but an old school guy with good character like that is always going to be a good influence on the younger guys.
by StarksMiddleFinger on Jan 4, 2010 3:41 PM EST reply actions
Dude, I made a post on here a few days ago saying exactly what you’re saying almost word for word. i’m glad i’m not the only one who sees it. this means he’s gotta be a secret old school knick. third one up from the bottom.
http://www.postingandtoasting.com/2009/12/19/1208756/how-i-learned-to-stop-worrying-and
If Bender could kick it up just a bit more
Perhaps he could fill the Jeffries role allowing the NYK to trade him while his value is high.
call me crazy but....
keep jeffries?
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by stingy d on Jan 4, 2010 10:08 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
welll
i dunno. but i cast the first stone against him a loooooonnng time ago. it’s maybe time to catch a lump?
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They could
get Jeffries to not pick up his 6.8 million option for 10-11 and then sign him to a 4 year deal worth 3.8 million a year. Clear up 3 million in cap space next year, but he gets more money long term. He remains our defensive quarterback for the future and maybe learns to hit a layup. (I’m kidding about that last part)
yeaaahhhhhhhh
Nothing says "Jared, we want you in NY long term…but we need you to take a 50% paycut next year and the year after that and the year after that. But trust us, you are a valuable piece to this team. Whatdya say? You in? Jared? Hello? Are you there? Jared? Jared? Bueller?
"you're the Rod Thorn in my Chris Bosh side."
by Chris Child's Fist on Jan 5, 2010 12:52 PM EST up reply actions
if jared got pissed and demanded a trade
that wouldn’t be the worst thing either.
but, seriously, i’m sure jeffries and his agent understand that they fleeced isiah the first time around. if his agent were to take a look around and see what jeffries and players of his caliber might get from other teams, he might not find such a lengthy offer anywhere else.
no, he wont get that kind of money elswhere
all the more reason for him to pick up his player option for $6.8. If Fuhry’s number is right (and it seems in the ballpark), then Jefferies leaves like 40% on the table. He has 1 year left and he is still young enough to get another contract, probably for around $4M/year for a few years anyways. The only real incentive for Jefferies here would be his reputation for “sacrificing for the good of the team”.
Its great for the Knicks, of course, but I definitely wouldn’t have my hopes up or expect him to essentially donate $3 Million to James Dolan.
"you're the Rod Thorn in my Chris Bosh side."
by Chris Child's Fist on Jan 5, 2010 2:57 PM EST up reply actions
i guess it depends on
whether or not other teams would be willing to give him a multi-year deal. i suppose that’s getting likelier by the day, since he’s been defending so well.
From Jeffries' perspective
Such an arrangement only makes sense if he thinks he can’t get more than a 3 year/$9MM deal from some other team. And, let’s face it, he can’t. I don’t see too many good defenders/horrible offenders who make that kind of scratch.
The bigger problem is that, I believe, this sort of arrangement would be an under-the-table deal that would violate the Cap and subject us to a loss of draft picks as a penalty. See, e.g., Joe Smith in MN.
"Dishin' and swishin' in transition"
by Serious Garbage Time on Jan 5, 2010 4:00 PM EST up reply actions
Not downward
See here. But it seems a bit unfair since this seems to benefit both sides.
"Dishin' and swishin' in transition"
by Serious Garbage Time on Jan 5, 2010 4:11 PM EST up reply actions
But is this a renegotiation?
Maybe not. Maybe it’s just declining a player option in exchange for a new deal.
But it’s still probably considered improper.
"Dishin' and swishin' in transition"
by Serious Garbage Time on Jan 5, 2010 4:26 PM EST up reply actions
I don't think it's a renegotiation
if he opts out of the last year of his deal. The question is whether there is any way to legally do this. The Knicks could say they’ll sign Jeffries to a long deal if he opts out… but could they be legally held to it or would it be nudge nudge wink wink? I doubt Jeffries would agree if there was a chance the Knicks would then say ‘Uh, we changed our minds, see ya!". I have not heard that this kind of deal is against the rules. I think that if the Knicks get a committment from LeBron in July, they might try to get this done to free up a few more million to re-sign Lee or a point guard. But if they don’t sign LeBron or Wade, they might be better off just letting him expire after 10-11.
How much does Anderson Varejo make?
Chris Andersen?
Ben Wallace?
"you're the Rod Thorn in my Chris Bosh side."
by Chris Child's Fist on Jan 5, 2010 4:15 PM EST up reply actions
All excellent points
But I think each one of them is a better defender than JJ and, more to the point, a much better offensive player.
JJ’s PER is at 8.0. That’s bad. Varejao, Andersen and Wallace are all over 14.0. That’s good, or at least good enough. Plus, they can all score when right underneath the basket. (In fairness though, the team does play slightly better offensively with Jeffries in there, but he still sucks on O.)
Basketball Reference’s season preview had the closest comparable player to JJ being Jason Collins. That sounds about right to me. Collins was also an excellent defender though the conventional stats didn’t show it. He was also one of the absolute worst offensive players in history. And Jason Collins is currently making about what Jeffries makes, with similar regret accompanying each signed paycheck.
I still think that JJ is most likely to get the bi-annual exception in his next contract, and that’s around $2MM per year.
"Dishin' and swishin' in transition"
by Serious Garbage Time on Jan 5, 2010 4:25 PM EST up reply actions
Right
I was naming guys who are noted defenders but not offenders… wait, that sounds very wrong. In any case, my own point is Jefferies isn’t as good as those guys either, so of course it adds to his over-pricedness (inventing words again) and since he only has one more year left (after this year), its foolish for him to NOT pick up his option. He will get another NBA contract after, but yeah, it will be for less, so his incentive to sign now is really nonexistent (at least from Jefferies pov).
As for the Knicks “agreeing” to sign him, yeah, they can do that. Carlos Boozer did it with Cleveland, though he of course, fucked them over, thus ruining any other NBA players chance of trusting a front office when they do something “nice” for a player. Boozer’s contract was a team option though. I mean, NY could only verbalize an offer to Jefferies, and he’d have to trust them to make good on it. They could also sign him to an extension i beleive, but, well, it wouldn’t look so pretty seeing the amount be 50% less than it currently is… but.. well… not my problem, haha.
"you're the Rod Thorn in my Chris Bosh side."
by Chris Child's Fist on Jan 6, 2010 2:49 PM EST up reply actions
can we get donnie on the horn?
the risk/reward is prety even there if you ask me. i know i would take that deal in a heartbeat.
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I'm with you
His adjusted plus/minus has been off the charts this year.
Given the choice, I’d rather trade Wil for cap relief and a draft pick than trade Jeffries for just cap relief.
"Dishin' and swishin' in transition"
by Serious Garbage Time on Jan 5, 2010 10:54 AM EST up reply actions
At Worst
Bender appears he’ll be a useful bench mob player the rest of the year. Knicks might as well give him a shot as what’s 800K in the NBA? If his legs fail him, big deal, he cost peanuts.
Looking for in-depth basketball analysis? Try http://www.basketballfreeforall.com!
Look how long it took Wil to get his legs back after minor ankle surgery
So I think we need to let bender keep playing for at least the rest of the year. I believe he will improve with time and conditioning.
This project needs to end.
If he gets his legs back tomorrow, how much of a future does he have? This is out of control. He has severe knee problems in the NBA. Thats like having driving problems in nascar. He didnt blow his knees out and miss a season this was a 3 year epic injury. We have young legit talent for now and the future (Jordan Hill. Toney Douglas…) there is no reason he plays. His upside is far less than Eddy Currys. If we MUST have a feel good project shouldnt it be the guy who lost jenny craig weight to get some PT. We already suffer through Jared Jeffries and Chris Duhon, do we have to justify another mediocre player getting time he doesnt deserve…. oh well as long as we keep winning…
Think it's time to call it quits
Look, Bender is a nice guy and a decent jump shooter. It would be a great story if he were to come back and be effective. But at the moment, could anyone really say with a straight face that Bender would be more valuable than Jordan Hill in three months if they got the same minutes? Hill is a young guy who can become much better much faster than Bender. And what peak is Bender getting trying to get back to? Mediocre bench player?
Bender’s minutes need to go to Hill, ASAP. Sorry Jon. Spot in the front office for him?
it never really occurred to me
that bender was receiving minutes at the expense of hill. hill wasn’t really getting consistent burn before bender arrived, and hasn’t seen much time in the games bender missed.
True.
Hill doesnt get any burn. Thats not benders fault. It just seems logical tht a franchise that keeps talking about the future doesn’t play people who were drafted to be around in the future. It they didnt frame Bender as a future cog in the knicks machine, then I dont think people would use the HIll comparison. If Bender is the future then what is Hill? It just seems counter intuitive.
i think you're right AND wrong!
if you ask me the guy that makes jordan hill’s minutes nil is none other than jared jeffries. and to a lesser extent , david lee.
take THAT!
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by stingy d on Jan 4, 2010 10:13 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
landry too, by the way
http://www.newsday.com/sports/d-antoni-hughes-benching-simply-the-way-it-is-1.1683885
i sure hope he stays as well.
Me too
The dude has a family to feed.
"Dishin' and swishin' in transition"
by Serious Garbage Time on Jan 5, 2010 10:55 AM EST up reply actions
Lot’s to like about the guy, great story. As for the salary and the guarantee no biggy. Could be they wanna make him a coach. Dunno.
He has some pluses but D’A is supposed to be 7 or less and for me I see the acceleration of a fully loaded diesel tractor-trailer after the possession changes. My preference is Hil gets more minutes. Bender is burning them for now.
"I am not now at all sure that the tendency to treat the whole thing as a kind of vast game is really good - certainly not for me who find that kind of thing only too fatally attractive." - J R R Tolkein
minutes
unfortunately, it’s a coaches decision. Bender is someone the coach likes and he will therefore get burn…..not sayin that the coach doesn’t like Hill, but right now Hill is not an option 4 Mike D….and we all know that when Mike D can’t see U, U aint playin.
Just ask Nate. It seems like it doesn’t matter who’s on this team, Mike will play who he wants and sit anybody else whether we win or lose.
Jordan Hill is not Allen Iverson...
… ergo, dude needs to learn how to practice. I don’t have it first-hand, but I have heard from multiple sources that Hill has no work ethic. If that’s true, Hill has no future. In that way, we’re better off with Bender, regardless of whether it is for the near- or long-term.
Assessing Bender
Mike D’Antoni has finally found his Boris Diaw (He tried it with Jeffries but he has no offensive game)
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