Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Transfer Rumor: Bolton On Verge of First Signings

Why D'Antoni doesn't play Jordan Hill or DWTDD and why that could be a good thing

Every non-Knicks fan is calling Jordan Hill a bust (seriously, how the hell does Hill become #10 of this decades biggest draft busts on Chad Ford's list?  Are you kidding me??).  Everyone just wants TD to DWTDD.  Yet D'Antoni refuses to play these kids.  Why?  Is it cause they suck?  I beg to differ..

Star-divide

Looking back on D'Antoni's coaching years, starting in 2003/04, here are the draft picks/young players he ended up working with:

Maciej Lampe (2nd year...just for jokes)
Leandro Barbosa (1st Round, #29)
Amare Stoudemire (2nd year)
Dijon Thompson (2005, 2nd round #54 overall)
Alondo Tucker (2007, 1st round #29)
DJ Strawbery (2007, 2nd round #59)
Danilo Gallinari (2008, 1st round, #6)
Jordan HIll (2009, 1st round #8)
Toney Douglas (2009, 1st round #29)

Now there are bunch of other career bench players (Casey Jacobsen, Tskitishvili, Andre Barrett, etc) and REAL notable young players who did barely anything until they met D'Antoni (Joe Johnson in his 5th year in 2003/04 for half that year, Diaw in his 3rd year in 2005/06), but for the sake of this argument, I'm going to leave them out.  But just for kicks, I would recommend that you click and take a look at Joe Johnson's and Diaw's numbers in the post D'Antoni years.  Say what you will about number inflation, these guys STILL produce even after leaving the system, which means I'm guessing there was some coaching that altered these guy's fortunes.

Now, taking a look at the list of young players, I want to concentrate on mainly Leandro Barbosa, who in his rookie year, the Suns went 21-61 (D'Antoni coached 63 of those games).  The reason I do this is because Thompson, Alondo, or DJ were NEVER going to get playing time on a championship contending, short rotation team, although DJ did get some time off the pine.  Let's look at Barbosa's progression:

Barbosa Stats:

 

SeasonAgeTmLgGGSMPFGFGAFG%3P3PA3P%FTFTAFT%ORBDRBTRBASTSTLBLKTOVPFPTS
2003-04 21 PHO NBA 70 46 21.4 3.0 6.7 .447 1.2 3.0 .395 0.7 0.9 .770 0.3 1.4 1.8 2.4 1.3 0.1 1.7 2.6 7.9
2004-05 22 PHO NBA 63 6 17.3 2.7 5.6 .475 0.8 2.2 .367 0.9 1.1 .797 0.5 1.6 2.1 2.0 0.5 0.1 1.4 2.0 7.0
2005-06 23 PHO NBA 57 11 27.9 4.8 9.9 .481 1.5 3.4 .444 1.9 2.6 .755 0.5 2.1 2.6 2.8 0.8 0.1 1.6 2.5 13.1
2006-07 24 PHO NBA 80 18 32.7 6.6 13.9 .476 2.4 5.5 .434 2.5 2.9 .845 0.3 2.4 2.7 4.0 1.2 0.2 1.8 2.6 18.1

So on a terrible, terrible team, Barbosa got a bunch of minutes in 03/04, and under a full season, D'Antoni played him 17.3 Min/game (Barbosa had Jim Jackson ahead of him on the rotation), sure more then Hill and Douglas, but could be comparable up to this point in TD's time this year (13 Min/game).  Again, Barbosa wasn't really lighting the world on fire.  But lets look at 05/06 and 06/07 seasons, Barbosa minutes increased by 10 minutes in 05/06 and up to 32.7 Min/game in 06/07. 

What does this all mean for Jordan Hill and TD? 

Jordan Hill

 Well, for Jordan, it just means there are just more experienced players that's blocking him from getting any minutes and I'd be hard pressed to argue that Hill is actually better then any of these guys on the front court: DLee, Gallo, Al Harrington, or Jeffries (from a overall team perspective).  Where would Hill's minutes come in?  Bender?  Probably and you could make a valid argument that Hill could be better then Legs.  Still, it's a little hard since there's really no precedence in D'Antoni's previous years with a lottery pick (Amare is the closest comparison, but he was playing Amare a lot of minutes on a trash team in 03/04 AND that was his 2nd year coming off of a Rookie of the Year award) and after all, everyone loves Legs.

Still, call me rosy, I'm still of the mind that Hill just needs more time to develop in the school of the D'Antoni brothers, and will be playing a lot more minutes as he develops or the front court thins out.  I don't think Hill's playing because Pringles thinks he sucks, rather, he just has better players he can put in (and they're winning so who's to argue?).  Lastly, Summer League tells you if you suck, not that you're good, and while we don't know for sure that Jordan Hill is going to be great, we know he won't suck.

Hill's Summer League #'s below:

Season Team G GS MPG FG% 3p% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
2009 NYK 5 5 30.2 .438 .000 .696 3.0 5.2 8.2 0.6 0.8 1.0 2.20 6.00 14.4

Also, for anyone ready to make the 'We Could Have Had Jennings' argument, go ahead, but remember, you're also probably the same guy who wants Lebron and if that's the case, really ask yourself wouldn't Lebron want the ball in his hands, not Jennings?  AND, please, let's just see how things go with Jordan Hill over the next 3 years, then let's start comparing when things are all sorted out.

TD 
This is a better comparison with Leandro because they're stuck in a similar position: 3rd guard on a 2 PG rotation (Du, Robinson).  With Leandro, he was stuck behind Nash and Jim Johnson in 04/05.  I'm not comparing the players, although both are more in the defensive, combo guardish mode, I'm just comparing situations.  Also, granted Leandro didn't know English well, but regardless, D'Antoni seems to have always chosen to go with proven veterans over any potential upside youngster when given the choice (which is the same case for Jordan Hill's situation). 

HOWEVER, and this is important, it doesn't mean he's stunting his growth.  Look at Barbosa in 05/06 numbers, nearly doubled his points, stls, and 3's per game (also an additional 10 minutes/game), but D'Antoni has gotten a track record of getting these young kids to develop and play when needed.  I feel that this is the same trajectory that TD is going to have, with next year a bigger increase in minutes and year 3, getting some real time.

Remember, it's not the minutes you play, it's what these kids are doing in those minutes.  And TD is DWTDD.

Per 36 minutes just for fun:

SeasonAgeTmLgGGSMPFGFGAFG%3P3PA3P%FTFTAFT%ORBDRBTRBASTSTLBLKTOVPFPTS
2009-10 23 NYK NBA 25 2 325 7.4 15.2 .489 2.0 6.0 .333 1.1 1.3 .833 1.1 2.0 3.1 2.4 1.4 0.0 2.4 4.3 17.9

Gallo
And remember when a whole lot of us (or maybe it was just me) was yelling at Pringles to play Gallo more?  Let's just look at his numbers for fun:

SeasonAgeTmLgGGSMPFGFGAFG%3P3PA3P%FTFTAFT%ORBDRBTRBASTSTLBLKTOVPFPTS
2008-09 20 NYK NBA 28 2 14.7 2.0 4.5 .448 1.1 2.6 .444 0.9 1.0 .963 0.5 1.5 2.0 0.5 0.5 0.1 0.5 1.7 6.1
2009-10 21 NYK NBA 33 26 30.9 4.7 10.8 .433 2.8 6.8 .408 2.5 3.0 .820 0.7 4.2 4.9 1.6 0.8 0.8 1.3 2.2 14.6

 

Feel any better?  I kind've do.

Comment 17 comments  |  5 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

Wait...

Chad Ford’s calling Hill a bust already? Hasn’t this guy been involved with the NBA for more then 20 minutes?

I think I’m one that would like to see these guys play more…but they are ROOKIES.

Pretty much, around the league..the ROOKIES play when there is a real opportunity for them to play…like if there is not a single player on the roster to play that position, or a player is injured.

These guys are rookies.

From what I’ve seen of them, and Chad Ford’s obviously seen a whole lot less…, Hill and DWTDD are going to be NBA players.

Didn’t Chad Ford call Channing Frye a bust? Didn’t many NY fans call him that too? Kid is a knock down 3pt shooter as soon as he’s in a Pringles style open offense down there in Phoenix.

People need to give them a chance. Really..it doesn;t have much to do, at this point, with Pringles giving them a chance.

They’ve shown that they can play. As they get older..they’ll get more time to actually matter.

N8 !

by FreeBradshaw on Jan 6, 2010 11:34 AM EST reply actions  

I'm sure Ford jumped on the Jennings train

Many years the lottery picks go to crappy teams who immediately look for them to help out. Sure, it looks odd to see the #7 pick riding DNPs into the sunset, but if you remember the draft and look at D’Antoni’s history, he doesn’t rely on rookies, and everyone knew when theydrafted Hill that he is raw and is a ‘project’. Fortunately, NY DOES have a frontline and they are able to let him develop at a slower pace. I agree, next year will be when Hill makes an impact (at least a bigger impact than this year).

Toney Douglas is different, in that he came out of school after graduating and was regarded as more NBA ready. When he has gotten good minutes, he has shown that he can hang too. He just falls into that crack that D’Antoni doesn’t rely on his rookies. It sucks because Chris Duhon started so horribly and then Nate was benched for 14 games. But now that No Can Du is playing occasionally better, Toney just has to work harder for his attention. Again, next year I’m sure we will see a different TD. Maybe even this season after all-stars…

"you're the Rod Thorn in my Chris Bosh side."

by Chris Child's Fist on Jan 6, 2010 3:11 PM EST reply actions  

It has a lot to do with how the team's success

If the team is winning, you won’t hear fans screaming about the rookies’ playing time, but when we had that 1-9 start, everyone, including me was demanding to see the rookies to see if they could do better. If D’Antoni keeps winning, it will become a smaller issue.
This does make me feel better. It’s hard to be patient, but some players need to develop slowly (especially big men).
I’ve learned my lesson from last year. I’m ashamed to admit it, but I started buying into the stories about Gallo being a bust (not because of lack of skill, but because of his back injury). I’m not saying a word until I’ve seen significant minutes for both of them (probably next year). You can’t be a bust until you play and prove that you suck.

by StarksMiddleFinger on Jan 6, 2010 3:18 PM EST reply actions  

once again, nice little essay here

i got no problem with the minutes jordan hill and toney douglas are (not) receiving.

toney is gonna be just fine. but the point guard position is nearly impossible to learn in this league. time and again, i see “true” point guards who just can’t hang. and they slowly devolve out of the league, or slink around the end of benches across the league, accomplishing nothing. toney has the hard-nosed attittude that is going to make him reliable, in some capacity… in due time. does he remind anyone of will bynum? seems reasonable to me. he’ll be ok. but that is not to say he is ready to spin.

jordan hil is not as close as toney douglas. and sure, he might never reach competency level. it’s possible. but i like the idea of jordan hill playing jared jeffreis’ position in that funky zone we’ve been employing lately. but, as a kid who didn’t start playing until 5-6 years ago, is he going to figure that spot out quickly? doubt it. also, my dude is super thin. what’s the harm in letting gain a little muscle mass? pause. if jordan hasn’t grown into his shoes by the end of rookie contract, we can say peace. he is by no means a bust. and he is by no means prepared to successfully contribute to a (winning) nba team given significant minutes. it’s obvious.

having said that!

he’ll have a better career than brook lopez.

twitter.com/aighttho
http://howmuchyouthink.tumblr.com/

by stingy d on Jan 7, 2010 11:47 AM EST reply actions  

well done philee

I have no qualms with the way Mike D is handling the rooks.

I have always thought that rookies getting onto the court and getting schooled is no good for anyone. If they aint ready, then they aint ready. Let them learn in practice, and come out strong and more confident next season.

The whole Chad Ford thing is redicoulous. Not that I really ever read his stuff, but I sure as hell wont now. Plus… could you not get on golden state for the same reason? Or how about Minn for drafting 2 PGs and neither one jennings. If you went with the 2 PG strategy, would flynn and jennings have been a better choice?

TD is going to have a solid NBA career. I think that pretty obvious. I like our rooks, and I agree that Mike D has a solid portfolio of helping young players grow. We can see it in Gallo, Lee, Chandler and even the veteran JJ.

by gbaked on Jan 7, 2010 12:43 PM EST reply actions  

Thanks for the Rec love

I think this was just a way to cope with all the negativity surrounding Hill and the label of him as a ‘bust’.

@Stingy D, the thing with Hill is we already know what he does well, hustle, and to a lesser extent, hit an occasional jumper and rebound. I just hope he increases that bball IQ of his and can play the same kind of heads up D Jeffries has been playing. And yes, Brook Lopez will be getting tea bagged consistently by Hill.

@gbaked, the other thing I like about D’Antoni is him and his staff seems to find whatever strengths a player has and try to really make them maxmize those things, rather then trying to make players do something out of their scope

by philee on Jan 7, 2010 4:34 PM EST up reply actions  

And yes, Brook Lopez will be getting tea bagged consistently by Hill.

He will be yelling at his face while holding racist signs?

(sorry… couldnt help it)

by gbaked on Jan 7, 2010 4:46 PM EST up reply actions  

We are playing our young players with veterans

I think this is the way it should be, We have enough young players already and are developing them.

At the moment, we do not have enough yoom for Hill and TD, but later on in the year (when Jeffries is traded) we might

It is not a bad idea to sit them and let then watch how the like of Hughes, Duhon, Jeffries, Lee etc plays and once they get the strength, give them 10-20 min for 25-35 games

Most Rookies (Chandler and Gallo) included does nothing in their first year

by a hay on Jan 7, 2010 4:46 PM EST reply actions  

the reason why they havent been playing is because the veterans are winning games

and dantoni has been truthful from the getgo that his focus is winning games. not developing talent for a free agent or showing off our young talent. he just wants to win games and lucky for us he is winning them with one particular player that we might be able to trade away now that he has some value. jared jeffries is soo gone by the trade deadline.

by karamjitm9090 on Jan 9, 2010 2:32 AM EST reply actions  

for real?

I know..the Knicks have no shot at a title this year…but I have no problem with them being watchable and in every game.

Getting rid of Jeffries…I dunno if they will be able to do that.

I’d rather get rid of Curry, since he’s useless.

If they must get rid of Jeffires…why not wait till the offseason and maybe get a late 1st rounder for him? Probably more realistically a 2nd rounder?

N8 !

by FreeBradshaw on Jan 10, 2010 8:56 AM EST up reply actions  

jeffries gets paid more than a most top ten picks will be getting paid.

if it was gonna be easy he would have been gone a long time ago. you know, it seemed like, not all that long ago- jeffries was not worthy of nba status. now he makes our defense what it is.

twitter.com/aighttho
http://aightthen.tumblr.com/

by stingy d on Jan 10, 2010 9:29 AM EST up reply actions  

This has been a bigger point for the Knicks

to showcase Jefferies value to other teams. They know they wont be able to get rid of Curry until next year (when his bad contract becomes a a valuable expiring contract). Its pretty obvious that Curry wont be playing many minutes for us either, D’Antoni obviously doesn’t think he can help us win. Jefferies has played well enough that someone will bite, and though he’s becoming a solid defensive guy for us, by no means does that make him unmovable.
The plan is to win, but the plan is to trim.

"you're the Rod Thorn in my Chris Bosh side."

by Chris Child's Fist on Jan 10, 2010 3:59 PM EST up reply actions  

I guess so...

hopefully its not until the offseason that they trade Jeffries.

I’d love to sell high…but I think it pretty obvious that whenever Jeffries isn’t in the lineup, the Knicks can’t play, at least consistently.

And yea…this is pretty funny that keeping Jeffries is even a thought. I would’ve have minded a couple months ago if they sacrificed him to the NBA Gods at midcourt during halftime.

How come China can't vote David Lee for All-Star?

by FreeBradshaw on Jan 11, 2010 10:16 AM EST up reply actions  

FSU == point guard factory

i see Charlie Ward’s heir apparent in Toney Douglas. he’s got tenacious D (by today’s league’s standards) and in the games i’ve seen him in, can pass and shoot. he just needs more floor awareness.

as for Jordan Hill? he’s the next Kurt Thomas. but it’s kinda hard when you’ve got D-Lee and Al Harrington in front of you on the rotation. which is exactly what makes him like Kurt Thomas, because he had LJ and Marcus Camby in front of him! oh the memories…

by renovator on Jan 17, 2010 3:38 PM EST reply actions  

twice

but also, i’d like to point out… jordan hill seems to be behind jared jeffries > jonathan bender. this is not your grandfather’s knicks.

twitter.com/aighttho
http://aightthen.tumblr.com/

by stingy d on Jan 19, 2010 11:02 AM EST up reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Posting and Toasting: Blogging the Knicks Robin Hood-Style Since 2007

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Jorts6_small
Next Season's Roster and the Cap and the Tax
Jorts6_small
Game 6 Optimism Thread!
Cheating_spartans_small
The Knicks as the Avengers (Spoiler Alert)
Mets_knicks_small
baked thoughts - game 4
Dscn0215_small
Machu Picchu

Recent FanPosts

Small
Ridiculous Knicks Trade proposals Pt. 1
Sterling_archer_small
Knicks' Second Round Draft Pick Discussion Thread
Small
What would it take to get Rick Carlisle to coach the Knicks?
Small
If NBAPA wins "The Linsanity Rule" Arbitration... Who do we want in addition to Lin? Nash? Dragon?
Small
Player Grades for 2012
Small
NBA Scout On Vassilis Spanoulis And Georgios Printezis
Small
Knicks Players NBA 2K12 ratings
Nba_g_starks01_576_small
State Your Case for the NBA Finals
Ed-in-chief_small
A whole lotta nonsense
Small
Parody is as parody does.

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >