Thoughts on the Loss to the Kings
On those occasions when I'm able to catch a large portion of a game, I like to express my thoughts (read: vent usually, exalt occasionally)
I caught this game from mid-second quarter on. When Nate's layup pushed the lead to 15, I went up and got a glass of water. When I sat back down, the lead was 7. How did that happen? I knew we were in trouble at that point.
Give the Kings credit - I thought they were shooting pretty well for most of the game. I do think they got an inordinate amount of lucky bounces on offensive rebounds... but still. Luck is the residue of design, as Branch Rickey once said. They stepped up their defensive intensity at the end and kept shooting well, and on those rare misses, they got the offensive rebound. I think the Knicks got about 2 stops in the last 10 minutes of the game.
Points, in order of how they popped into my head:
1. Wilson Chandler is a very good player. He really impressed me tonight. He's not a great player like Kobe that can kill you no matter what you do. But he brings a lot. At the end of the game, I think the Kings finally figured out a way to get the ball out of his hands. When that happens, it creates opportunities for other players on the floor. Unfortunately those other players are Chris Duhon and Jared Jeffries.
2. Speaking of which, I don't necessarily have a problem with the play where they went for the 3 with Jeffries on the kickout. He can occasionally hit a three, and he hit one tonight. But on a couple of occasions, one in regulation (it may have been in the second quarter) and one in OT, they gave the ball to Jeffries in the post and he executed a post move. Execute, as in killed. He dribbled, backed his man down, turned, and hurled the most haphazard touchless brick toward the general vicninity of the backboard that I have ever seen. It makes sense to give the ball to Lee and have him do this - he actually can score this way. But Jeffries can't. And this is what happens every time Jeffries tries to score in traffic. He can't. You might as well just give the ball to the other team. And they did this in OT.
I know that people have been singing Jared's praises, and he hustles and tries, and the defense does seem to suffer when he's not in there. He's pretty good at staying in front of any player on the floor. He can draw a charge, and he can get a rebound if there's no one around him, and he might hit a shot occasionally if there's no one around him. But he can't do anything in traffic. He can dribble and pass a little. He's useful for situational minutes. But as a core rotation player? He just doesn't bring enough to the table. Maybe if he was the only player on the floor that couldn't shoot, they might survive. But with Duhon out there? Forget it.
3. Speaking of which, Seeing Duhon out there next to Tyreke Evans was um.. illuminating. Evans is supposed to have no point guard skills but with the game on the line, even at 20 years old, the guy looked like a leader out there. He made something happen when they needed buckets. Duhon? no. N8? Not really. Al drove at one point and got us a critical bucket, and he made a great pass to Jeffries for a slam. But for the most part, they looked scared to lose out there on offense, and a point guard has got to rally the troops some way.
4. Which brings me to my next point. Down the stretch an in OT, when Evans was driving in on Jeffries every time down the floor, and Duhon was not being a leader or showing any ability to score, I was wondering - how could it possibly be worse to have Toney Douglas out there instead of Duhon? Douglas would be up to the challenge of guarding Evans and I know he would have done something to slow him down. On the other end, Douglas is a threat to score, which Duhon isn't. Duhon runs the pick and roll with Lee, but the Kings shut that down toward the end of the game. Douglas may not have what it takes to be a point guard and he may not be as good as I hoped. But I think if he was in this game, the Knicks would have won it.
5. I actually thought Gallo was OK tonight. He was crashing the defensive boards and since everyone in the league knows that the Knicks are susceptible to offensive rebounds, I think that helped neutralize the Kings o-board crashing. Gallo, unlike Jeffries, can actually do stuff in traffic.. Even when he's not having a great shooting night, it's obvious he's a basketball player out there. I think losing Gallo (it seems like he's got some kind of carpal tunnel thing) is what led to all those late offensive rebounds for the Kings. You can blame Lee and he seemed a bit spent down the stretch, but I think that when he's the only guy rebounding the Knicks suffer.
6. Which brings me to my next point - the Knicks desperately needed some interior energy down the stretch. I would have liked to have seen Hill get some 4th quarter burn to give Lee a blow (pause)... because clumsy as he can be, Hill brings great energy and Lee needs a rest sometimes.
Bottom line - if the pick and roll isn't working, having Duhon and Jeffries on the court at the same time is the kiss of death for their offense.
Bottom line #2: Defensively, they need more rebounding skill on the floor. I think that other teams have figured out that if they have Lee's guy concentrate not so much on getting the offensive rebound but, on denying it to Lee, other players can swoop in and outrebound all the other Knicks players.
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good points on douglas v. duhon
not that it especially matters, but toney matched up really well with evans in summer league.
Trenchant analysis Fuhry
My only addition is that JJ can hit the 3, but only from the corner. That’s him in the spot light.
"Dishin' and swishin' in transition"
by Serious Garbage Time on Feb 10, 2010 12:07 PM EST reply actions
Well
Shows what I knows. But still: small sample sizes and his longer three from the top of the key was short.
So there.
"Dishin' and swishin' in transition"
by Serious Garbage Time on Feb 10, 2010 1:49 PM EST up reply actions
Im sure Toney Douglas would have helped us at the end
and I am simply baffled at how much leash Duhon has with this team and how his confidence can stay in the toilet for so long. Seriously. It’s like he plays looking over his shoulder and is terrified of the responsibility of leading a team. But somehow, his starting spot is more secure than Chris Paul’s (have you seen Darren Collison?!).
Really though, what reason could Duhon have for playing the way he has? yeah, I don’t think he is the worlds most talented hoops player, but shit, he has been in the NBA for years now and we aren’t putting the weight of the world on his shoulders either!
"you're the Rod Thorn in my Chris Bosh side."
by Chris Child's Fist on Feb 10, 2010 1:21 PM EST reply actions
Good question
I think Duhon is a decent point guard who’s main deficiency is that he has confidence issues. He came in on a high when he was signed, feeling confident and wanted. Now, he looks like someone who is crumpling under pressure. He tries these bravado moves, like that 3 pointer last night, but that’s just empty bravado, not real confidence.
And we are putting the weight of the world on his shoulders – more weight than he’s ever had. We can all see – as can he, I’m sure, that this team is pretty good when he’s playing well and hitting shots. And suffers when he doesn’t. He needs a lesser role. He’s a good backup point guard. I think he would do well in LA, actually.
I'd put him in a smaller market with less rabid fans
bt i also think the better description of the Knicks is as the Point Guard goes, so go the Knicks. Its less Duhon and more the importance of the position
"you're the Rod Thorn in my Chris Bosh side."
by Chris Child's Fist on Feb 10, 2010 4:54 PM EST up reply actions
I'd suggest...
That Duhon must have something on D’antoni or Donnie. He’s not a starter on any other team in this league! It is not a stretch to say that DWTDD would have picked up the PnR by now to at least earn time in the SSOL.
It makes no logical sense that a team that is “fighting” for a playoff spot continues to go with what is clearly not working at the pg spot.
Wow
Possibility #1: Duhon is blackmailing the coach and GM for playing time so he can get more minutes to miss shots and help the team lose and ruin his reputation around the league.
Possibility #2: Douglas is not displaying much point guard acumen in practice, and N8 has never displayed much point guard acumen in his 4 year career.
So, you think possibility #1 is the more likely scenario?
By the way, Obama is is coming to take away all your toys, but if you give me $1000 I can guarantee your safety.
Also, did you know that I own the Brooklyn Bridge? You want to buy it? I’ll make you a deal.
New York Is a Small-Market Team
In baseball, no one wants to play for the Pittsburgh Pirates because they know that it is, to quote Marlon Brando, “a one-way ticket to Palookaville.” In fact, it is Palookaville. That’s why Brian Giles and Jason Bay got out as soon as they could. Now, you would think that NY has nothing in common with small-market Pittsburgh. But it does—-because the people who run the Knicks believe that they can still bring in crowds with mediocre and marginal players (like Duhon and Jennings). And they can!—-people still come to see the Knicks in spite of the fact that they haven’t made the playoffs in 5 years. Foolish mortals! Don’t people realize that if you have the money in the NBA—-you have to spend it! I don’t think we will get Lebron, but we certainly should be in the bidding for someone with marquee value who can actually put it in the basket and/or get it to someone who can. I love Robinson, and I want him to start all the time. He is electrifying—-the rest of the cast? Boring…….to the extreme. We lost our heart when we got rid of Frye. A serious mistake. But one that is par for the course for a team that is Palookaville II. And I come from NY and I love them and the Garden and the Post and News sports pages. Knicks—-stop kicking me in the balls!
"It's a cookbook!"---The Twilight Zone
i thought this was a joke at first
now i am certain. Everyone boring but robinson? Frye was our heart? Pairing Duhon and Jennings in the same talent level? And you are from NY???
Maybe you should have proofread more closely. This team in another market does NOT get the crowd turnouts that it has been getting this year at the garden.
by Ray Smuckles on Feb 11, 2010 6:13 PM EST up reply actions
...
my brain…
"But when he saw it, he just put his hands up and they couldn’t give it to him. It just fell to the ground, I-I don’t, you know … So, that showed me he had great experience..." - Jeff Van Gundy
by Anthony Bonner's Subpoena on Feb 11, 2010 8:36 PM EST up reply actions
-49
It would have been -50, but I have to allow credit to a fellow New Yorker.
But, there is no way New York is a small market team. It’s completely the opposite. New York is arguably the BIGGEST market team in the NBA!! A small market team is set in a small place that doesn’t generate a lot of attention and thus, few sponsors. They tend to have little money and their payroll reflects this. It’s less noticeable in the NBA because of the salary cap, but small market teams make up a lot of the NBA.
As for the Knicks…well, see, we have actually spent nearly the most amount of money in the entire NBA over the past decade. The problem is we spent our money on the wrong players. We signed too many guys to inflated contracts (something a small market team rarely does) and we screwed ourselves by trading many of our future draft picks to get over-valued uncerachievers. Our team salary has been in the Top 5, well, closer to the Top 3 in the NBA for a long time.
Donnie Walsh has come in and stopped our free flow of money and after 2 years of essentially a spending freeze, our bad contracts will finally be off of our hands. We will have a clean slate and spend our money more efficiently. Just throwing our money around for years has tanked our team talent-wise. Its time for wiser spending.
There is VERY little that NY has in common with Pittsburgh other than both cities having MLB teams. NY is a HUGE market.
"you're the Rod Thorn in my Chris Bosh side."
by Chris Child's Fist on Feb 11, 2010 1:51 PM EST reply actions
HUGE?
Well, of course NY is a huge market. Big media revenues (from MSG), several newspapers. But what I was getting at it is not that the team did not spend money, but as CCF says, the team has spent money unwisely on players that had already proven their mediocrity, something that small market MLB teams have to do because their young players get outta Dodge (or Pittsburgh) as soon as they can. And, in spite of what some people say, Channing Frye is growing into a pretty damn good player and, yes, Robinson is exciting and the rest are pretty boring. Is Gallo an “exciting” player? I like Lee, of course, but complains to the ref on almost every play. Very annoying. Maybe it’s just that I need to take my meds. Knicks—-win something, for God’s sake!
"It's a cookbook!"---The Twilight Zone
right, they need to be a better team
but that has nothing to do with their “market size”. The market is the media coverage and monetary possibilities, amongst many other things.
San Antonio is a small market team, as is Cleveland, even though they both have winning franchises.
"you're the Rod Thorn in my Chris Bosh side."
by Chris Child's Fist on Feb 12, 2010 10:09 AM EST up reply actions
Hm
I don’t think Pittsburgh’s troubles have much to do with the market they’re in – they just run the franchise in a budget way and have for a long time. Philadelphia most definitely doesn’t operate that way. Stars leave Pittsburgh because Pittsburgh won’t pay them. The Knicks have no trouble paying guys. They’re nothing like the Pirates. They’ve been on a budget but that’s just so they can have some money to spend, and that’s because of the salary cap, which you don’t have in baseball.
And to me, what excites me is guys making good basketball plays and while I like Nate and he does amazing things, in a basketball sense he’s good but not great. He can score in bunches but he’s not really that consistent about it, and he’s not a very good playmaker, and he’s not a great defender, so I’m not very excited. Gallo excites me because he’s 6’11" and can shoot threes and shows a knowledge of the game and sophisticated all-around skills that excite me (pause) even though he doesn’t seem like he’s putting it all together yet. Lee makes very quick moves down low but puts the ball up with touch and scores with either hand against bigger guys, and rebounds the ball – that’s exciting to me. I’ll live with the ref complaining. I also find Chandler to be capable of exciting drives to the basket. And Toney Douglas’ defensive potential would be exciting if I ever got to see it.
Of course, wins are the most exciting thing and that’s not happening much right now.
The Knicks changed regimes....
IT is gone.
Everything that IT did..should have nothing to do with what’s going on now.
IT traded Frye…Donnie Walsh did not.
Right now, they’re trying to clean up that mess by cleaning the slate. You can’t do it overnight.
2010 is the goal to have a clean slate…but who knows. Jeffires and Fat Curry may still be on the roster.
so 2011 seems more likely.
Bye, AP :(
by FreeBradshaw on Feb 12, 2010 4:22 PM EST up reply actions
Though I disagree, good stuff.....
Fuhry: A wonderful rejoinder to my post. I still think Nate is electrifying in a way few players are (the stature and jumping ability are incredible), but I can see your points about Gallo and Lee. Has anyone seen enough of Toney Douglas to say that he may be an “electrifying” player? I’m thinking of people like The Pearl of days gone by. The question is—-why can’t MikeD make up his mind and let the players play? Nate gets two games to prove he can be a starter and then Duhon comes in? Hasn’t Duhon been a mediocrity from the first? Who gets the crowd up—-even when we are losing….Nate! Enough about Nate——all I want is to win some games. Perhaps when Mike D talked about making the playoffs I got carried away. Still, it’s been a long time since we had something to cheer about.
"It's a cookbook!"---The Twilight Zone
true. disagreeing is perfectly fine
but its easy to agree that we really really really could use a nice big winning streak.
The agony of New York…
"you're the Rod Thorn in my Chris Bosh side."
by Chris Child's Fist on Feb 12, 2010 12:49 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
On why Mike D can't make up his mind
I suspect it’s because there’s just no solution to the Knicks glaring deficiencies and inconsistencies. He keeps trying different combinations because nothing works in a way that is clearly better than any other way. Similar to what Brown did, actually.
The Knicks are not spending money
cuz they’re cleaning up from the pile of crap from teh previous regime
The Knicks were the team with the highest payroll in the league but a few years ago….you knucklehead.
They CAN’T SPEND MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bye, AP :(














