Mike D'Antoni hates neither rookies nor defense.
by Seth on Mar 22, 2010 5:43 PM EDT
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PrintI tend to be pretty agnostic when it comes to the topic of Mike D'Antoni. I'd like to see him manage a team consisting of more than youngsters and inherited lame ducks before I judge his Knick legacy. That perception, it seems, is pretty widespread. Independent of roster quality, though, D'Antoni still draws ire for much of his decision-making. A lot of us pined for Jordan Hill to get more playing time in New York, and lo and behold, he's looking pretty sharp as a Rocket. Let select members of the media run wild with those circumstances, and you have a li'l controversy on your hands. You've probably heard: Mike D'Antoni was asked about rookies, and responded that he played good rookies, not "bad rookies". Of course, Coach's words were taken out of context and communicated to Hill, who responded as you'd expect. Whatever. The feud was overblown in the first place, and this guy ultimately isn't on the team anymore. It might serve D'Antoni well to choose his words more carefully when there are tape recorders in his face, but it's his journey. If the Knicks put together a winning team next year, this will all be forgotten.
In any event, the deal with Hill was another arrow in the quiver of those who claim D'Antoni is anti-rookie. Tom Ziller, as he's wont to do, sought out the empirical data behind everyone's idle criticisms. Look back at the coach's history, and you see a bunch of guys-- Jackson Vroman, Sharrod Ford, Dijon Thompson-- who you probably wouldn't play either. Basically, the coach hasn't spent much of his career coaching a bad team with lottery picks that deserve time. Limiting Hill's burn may or may not have been a mistake, but it's not really one of a series. The good news, I guess, is that the Knicks won't have a lottery pick for several years now, so this won't really be a concern going forward. Right?? (Tugs collar.)
The other pet criticism of D'Antoni D'tractors is that he doesn't preach defense. The merits of the 7 Seconds or Less system and all sorts of statistics have been presented and digested ad nauseam, so I'll just share these quotations from Jared Jeffries, who spoke to Howard Beck yesterday:
"I think that Mike’s a realist,’’ Jeffries said. "Defending, like anything else in the NBA, is a talent level. And you can’t have people that are not great defenders and expect them to be great defenders. Just like you can’t have people that aren’t great scorers and expect them to be great scorers. He put me out there to be a defender and he puts guys out there to be scorers. He does focus on defense, but if you don’t have defensive players, then you’re not going to be a great defensive team.’’
He added, "It’s not like he tells the guys, ‘Don’t go out there and guard anybody, just try to score.’ That’s not the case at all.’’
Jeffries' words are arguable, but his point should probably inform our perception of D'Antoni's mindset at this very moment. In years to come, the excuses will run out, but for the time being, it's worth keeping in mind what the Knicks' coach has to work with. Mike D'Antoni might, in fact, be vehemently ageist and anti-defense. For New York's purposes, I don't think we're certain of that yet. And if you think you're certain one way or the other, it helps to have gone to the source and done some research, like Ziller and Beck did.
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Jared Jeffries basically proved my point to anyone complaining about Pringles and the "state" of the Knicks
We don’t have the players.
DWTDD
Did he really have the players in Phoenix either?
Darrelle Revis once won a game of Connect Four in three moves.
I live in phoenix, and catch the suns play....they still play no defense
A steve nash offense, doesnt condone defense.
Nope
tho I do think that players like Marion, Raja Bell and somewhat Amare were better then what he’s got here….obviously
Given that basically we got a clean slate, I hope that him and Walsh try to build this thing differently.
DWTDD
by FreeBradshaw on Mar 22, 2010 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Pheonix had defensive minded guys
but just looking at opponents scoring averages doesn’t tell the story. Don’t forget that Phoenix ran an extremely uptempo offense which generated many more possessions per game. More possessions inevitably leads to more scoring opportunities. Phoenix was mild-of-the-pack in terms of Defense when you consider # possessions and fg%s. They definitely weren’t like the Warriors.
"you're the Rod Thorn in my Chris Bosh side."
by Chris Child's Fist on Mar 22, 2010 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions
How Arrogant?
To defend his self and style of ball play he would take a cheap shot at a young player thats trying to find his way in the league. it surprises me how people will defend this fom of behavior, for young players confidence is crucial, and that doesn’t just apply to basketball. what Mike did was wrong. As far as the rookies that he did’nt play in the pass, name one of the that was the 8th pick????
by FreejordanHill!!! on Mar 22, 2010 7:06 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
to be fair
Hill said something completely reasonable, that he understood why he didn’t get much burn in NY, and the press communicated it to D’antoni in an inflammatory way, as if Hill raked him over the coals. So D’antoni got a little hot and struck back. D’antoni allows himself to get a little emotional in front of the press sometimes – not the best quality but that’s who he is.
This is really just press generated bullshit that D’antoni allowed himself to be suckered into. It’s unfortunate but I really don’t think there’s any real bad blood between D’antoni and Hill. I agree Hill should have played more, but he was raw, and the D’antoni was trying to make the playoffs.
and then
the most poisonous of d’antoni’s words were extracted and communicated back to Hill, as well. The beef is like 75% fabricated.
That's what I thought,
Hill made some innocuous comment, some New York news outlet made it sound like he was really ripping D’Antoni, and Mike sort-of-overreacted. In the article I read in the news media, it was the headline that was really inflammatory. If one read the article, that “one” (me) was left wandering where the headline came from.
in the last month of his tenure
jordan got decent playing time, and played well. in the beginning of the season he got limited minutes and looked pretty bewildered.
twitter.com/aighttho
http://aightthen.tumblr.com/
by the way, how do i changemy name? lol!!
by FreejordanHill!!! on Mar 22, 2010 7:18 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
lol...
I still can’t stand the Knicks organization right now…. for trading J. Hill. I can’t believe the bone headed move to trade a player that you barely even played.. AND when you did play him, you gave him minutes that made no sense. Just typical of the Knicks organization, and yet I’m still a life_long fan. Where does mediocrity end?
my little heart was so broke when they traded Jordan, think about D Lee and in his rookie year and he’s an all star this year? It takes a while for bigs. I pulled for Brandon all summer, but i wasnt upset that we picked hill i thought he was just what we needed, a big that could defend & score the ball, talking about a ball i think we droped this one!
by FreejordanHill!!! on Mar 22, 2010 7:39 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
I feel you
and I’m equally pissed they didn’t give him the chance. I’d much rather see him getting run pause with the Knicks.
But for real…it would just be added to the list of dumb moves made by the Knicks this past decade. I mean, at the very least..they aren’t paying $110 mill for a POS team.
I dunno about you, but other then the mystery of what he could be and the anger that he wasn’t playing enough…I could care less about Jordan Hill if the Knicks are good next year.
Plus, Tony Douglas, Chan, Gallo and Bully Walker playing well lately……obviously if Jordan Hill was here it would be a bit better to see all the youngins balling pause.
I agree with you, I think it was wrong to give him up. I think a player like him would’ve helped us get good and stay good.
But I guess we’ll see. It’ll either be something to add onto the list of bullshit the Knicks organization has done…or he could’ve been just the thing that return the Knicks back to the mid 90’s caliber team they were (…just Jordan ain’t here)
DWTDD
by FreeBradshaw on Mar 22, 2010 8:50 PM EDT up reply actions
"I could care less about Jordan Hill if the Knicks are good next year."
Can’t say I totally agree with that unless the specific extra cap space we gained from the Hill trade is put to obvious and effective use, meaning we use ALL of the space wisely. If we don’t spend all of it, or use it well, it TOTALLY defeats the purpose of that trade.
With the cap space we already had before trade, we could have been good next year AND kept a young, developing big. And considering our height issues, could even help us win a few more this year (not that it means much other than giving less balls to Utah… pause)
Time will tell I spose…
Semi-related note and speaking of bigs… anyone else see the note that Darko may stay in the states as he’s doing rather well in Minny while being given the opp?
Darko is another shame we let get away.
and again, I feel you with the Jordan Hill sentiment.
But if the Knicks are winning 50+ games…for real, who cares?
DWTDD
by FreeBradshaw on Mar 23, 2010 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions
It was definitely a risk
If they hadn’t cleared the space, there was very little chance of keeping Lee and signing a max guy. So they made the trade and maybe if they end up with HHSNBN and Lee or Bosh it is worth it, but if Lee decides to sign somewhere else and they don’t get Bosh, they are definitely going to miss Hill and the deal will look bad then if Hill continues to produce and improve.
You have to take risks sometimes. We’ll see how it works out.
dijon thompson
was drafted by the knicks. just sayin’.
Trouble signs
If I remember right, one of the reasons that Pringles left Phoenix was his irritation at the criticism from the local media. What is he going to do here when the press really turns against him? I’ve been a Knicks fan for 35 years and Pringles has been treated better by the local press than any other coach during that time, even Willis Reed.
"Dishin' and swishin' in transition"
by Serious Garbage Time on Mar 23, 2010 10:47 AM EDT reply actions
Maybe...
but I thought the MAIN reason he left was a philosophy change in upper management that wanted him to focus more on defense and shift away from his offensive philosophy that he has always been so proud of? If that’s the case, I think as long as he is allowed to DWMDD, he’ll be ok with media criticism…
You're right
That was the main reason he left.
That said, this is a good example of why I hate the local media here. I know it’s not their job to help the Knicks, but there’s no question that the toxic local media makes it harder for the Knicks to recruit free agents and coaches and they can also be a major distraction.
Again, it’s not for the media to help the Knicks but why should I support them when 90% of the time they’re being destructive to the goal of winning and not providing any reliable inside information or analysis?
"Dishin' and swishin' in transition"
by Serious Garbage Time on Mar 23, 2010 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions
This pedestal for Jordan Hill is too much
Yeah I am bummed that we had to trade him. But relax guys. Jordan Hill may turn out to be a good player. But did you really expect him to the golden child for the Knicks? I didn’t. Yeah, we do need big men. We also have a plan to clear up cap space. The main reason was to move Jared Jefferies. We also were able to move hughes and bring in a big expiring contract in McGrady. That requires us to give up some value too.
Seriously, its nice to see Hill getting minutes in Houston. I wish him well. But hes no longr a Knicks, so…. moving on. Moving him has allowed us a bigger chunk to use this summer.
"you're the Rod Thorn in my Chris Bosh side."
by Chris Child's Fist on Mar 23, 2010 12:44 PM EDT reply actions
its the unknown and he never really got a fair shake pause
with the Knicks.
I think that if he played a bunch, stunk..and we basically traded away all potential..then OK.
But he didn’t play much and we gave away potential.
I can see the sentiment…cuz if Jordan Hill was getting run like the rest of the kids..say he looks as good on that court like Bill Walker or TD? Maybe we got our C and PF tandem with Lee and Hill?
Then since it seems Joe Johnson is likely…boom, basically all we gotta do.
DWTDD
by FreeBradshaw on Mar 23, 2010 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions
it was a gamble
and i like how we played it. jordan hill COULD be a solid player, and for a while. david lee IS a solid player.
but then you have mcgrady- this guy was a super mega star. obviously he doesn’t really have it anymore. but, if he did, there would be no real sentiment for jordan hill.
twitter.com/aighttho
http://aightthen.tumblr.com/
Right. nothing is guaranteed.
"you're the Rod Thorn in my Chris Bosh side."
by Chris Child's Fist on Mar 23, 2010 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah
I’m more upset that it’s becoming more and more apparent that Donnie screwed up by drafting Hill because he was the safe pick there. That’s one of the reasons that I don’t even care that much that we gave away the next two draft picks since Donnie is apparently a pretty crappy drafter. Cock, aside. (pause)
One thing you have to say about Isiah, he picked who he thought was best, not who everyone else thought was the safe pick. And he was usuall right. (About the draft. He was wrong about just about everything else.)
"Dishin' and swishin' in transition"
by Serious Garbage Time on Mar 23, 2010 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm not on the "Fire D'Antoni" bandwagon (yet)
but I think it’s a mistake to say we will know nothing of his warts until he gets “his” players. I’d say a couple of things about MD’A are pretty clear at this point (and seem unlikely to change).
1. MD’A is a Larry Brown-level diva (but with little of LB’s grace and charm). He is quick to cop a “how dare you question me” attitude, both with the media and his players. I’d be more tolerant of that were his weaknesses as a coach not so clear cut. MD’A emphasizes defense less than elite coaches in the NBA imo. (MD’As best Phoenix teams were league average defensively based on pace-adjusted metrics. Yet he refused to even entertain bringing a defensive specialist onto the staff.)
2. MDA is overly rigid in how he uses his roster. Although he rebels against post-up center dogma, he offsets it with his own personal dogma—especially the ultra-short rotations he fancies. I’m all for playing the best players the most minutes, regardless of position, but when the 6th guy isn’t much (or any) better than the 9th guy there’s little payoff. You’re better off spreading those minutes out across a few more players, if only to keep players 6 and 7 fresher and limit their fouls.
Even apart from that, can we really say with a straight face that this team couldn’t have used some of Hill’s rebounding, occasional blocked shot, and floor burns on nights when Harrington was turning it over, bricking a dent in the backboard, and getting abused on D? Ditto when MD’A was burning out an overmatched Duhon while Nate and DWTDD sat and watched? That was silly roster management. It was neither about winning now or developing players.
"Those who fear disorder more than injustice inevitably produce more of both." -- Rev. William Coffin
by dcrockett17 on Mar 23, 2010 5:36 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
absolutely
and those smaller-scale, temporally relevant criticisms are warranted. It’s the massive generalizations and conclusions (hiring D’Antoni was a mistake, D’Antoni hates rookies, D’Antoni can’t coach defense) that i tend to avoid. Game by game, though, I’ve been baffled by some of his roster choices and play calls.
Mike D'
I think the biggest hole in his skills as a coach are his end of game/quarter plays. Without fail, those plays always seem to devolve into one-on-one at best, and chaos at worst.
I personally don’t buy the Diva label at all, nor do I think he’s particularly quick to the “don’t question me” attitude – and if he is, it’s because that attitude is not as indicative of his being overwhelmed as it with other, more reserved coaches. He wears his heart on his sleeve, and I think we shouldn’t be surprised when he gets glib or short; that’s a part of his personality.
I think we’re all frustrated by his seeming unwillingness to play TD and Jordan (while he was here) but we also don’t see what’s going on in practice, and I tend to think these coaches who have won 60 games in a season tend to know what they’re doing. And with so much roster turnover, he’s had to discover who most of his players were midseason.
Sounds as if I’m more in the D’Antoni camp than many though.
Worthy points of a rec
I do hope he relaxes those tendencies as the future progesses though. But I think thats just wishful thinking.
"you're the Rod Thorn in my Chris Bosh side."
by Chris Child's Fist on Mar 25, 2010 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions
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