Donnie Walsh Review Part 3: The 2009 Draft
by philee on May 24, 2010 3:07 PM EDT
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PrintThe long overdue and last part of my review for Donnie about probably the most scrutanized part of his tenure. More after the jump.
Jordan Hill. It only takes two words to get most Knicks fans angry/irate/irrational/confused/sad. Well those two words and these: Renaldo Balkman. Take it easy, get off the ledge. Before I actually take a look at Jordan Hill, I wanted to take a look at the main arguments regarding the 2009 draft and why the logic would've dictated that the Knicks would've either, A) Chose Jordan Hill, B) Reached for a player of need, or C) Tried like hell to trade back.
Why people need to get off Brandon 'B.J.' Jennings dick and start looking at f--king logic:
Say the words 'Jordan Hill' to the irrational fan. They'll end up responding, 'WTF, WE COULD'VE HAD BRANDON JENNINGS' until your ears start bleeding. Let's get it straight: THE KNICKS WERE NEVER GOING TO GET BRANDON JENNINGS. THEIR WAS NO REASON FOR THEM TO GET BRANDON JENNINGS. NO ONE SHOULD BE BLAMING THEM FOR NOT TAKING BRANDON JENNINGS. So let's tackle the Brandon Jennings debate.
B.J., as I'll be referring to him now, had the following averages in Italy:
In 27 games, B.J. averaged 5.5 points, 1.6 rebounds, 2.2 assists, and 1.5 steals in 17.0 minutes per game. He shot 35.1 percent from the field and 20.7 percent from 3 point range in Lega A play
This is pretty much what people had to look at when evaluating B.J. Yes, he was rated the #1 prospect coming out of High School. Yes, he has an obvious explosive first step. He has good vision. But, B.J. had an insane amount of question marks surrounding him.
He was a terrible jump shooter. He didn't go to college because he didn't academically didn't qualify, not because he wanted to be some kind of pioneer for high school kids. Their really was no way of telling how good he could be based on actual game play.
I could go on and on and on, but I'll end the argument here: B.J. would've been the equivalent of taking a half court shot. If it went in? Amazing. Great. If it didn't? Walsh would've been questioned every day why he took that shot, especially with 2010 on the horizon......
The 2010 Argument
I think the whole thought process coming into the '09 draft was: "Who can we get to help (insert superstar player here)?" Here's just the general thought process:
For Wade/HWSNBN: A mobile big man who can defend; lights out shooter who can take pressure off of Wade/HWSNBN
For Amare/Bird-ass: A PG who can distribute / lights out shooter to space out floor
That's it. Now, let's assume that the player Walsh wants most is Wade/HWSNBN, only the 2 best players in this free agent class. Both like the ball in their hands. Both set up their teamates. Both don't need traditional PG's to play with. If that's the case, then B.J. wouldn't have been the pick.
Hill the Player
He wasn't great, he wasn't a bust; basically 70% of NBA players. An active rebounder, more hustle then pure athletic ability, definately above average from a size to speed ratio. Still has a raw offensive game and doesn't show potential to be a great defenisive player. I see him as a Robin Lopez esque player, which isn't a bad thing.
DWTDD
Let me emphasize: I love DWTDD. I do...but he's just not a PG. Is he a scrappy combo guard who plays his heart out? Yes. Is he talented? Certainly. Will he be a PG? No. I see DWTDD as the Leandro Barbosa for this team: change of pace guard who plays D, can run a little point, and can shoot the 3. To get that at the 29th pick? I'll take that in a heart beat. Just for kicks, here are the only players to have done anything close to sucess behind DWTDD:
Dejuan Blair, Jonas Jerebko, Chase Buddinger. That's it.
The Conclusion
As much as I can learn to accept that Jordan Hill was the logical pick, especially after they had Steph Curry taken right before their pick (hence making a trade a bit more difficult), I still wish they had a contingency plan and traded back to get a Ty Lawson, Eric Maynor, etc. While I think Hill was a mistake, it wasn't like Hill was a complete bust, just not ultimately a player that couldn't be given up (unlike Gallo). I think with hindsight, yes, it would've been great to come away with a PG, but we did get DWTDD and used Hill (another argument) to free up cap space. Not the best moment for Walsh, but certainly 10 times better then any of Isiah's and Scot Layden's mistakes (unless we are terrible in 2011 and 2012......)
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Great post I am so glad you are not drinking the
Brandon Jennings Kool aid. I hear from friends all the time who say we could have had Brandon Jennings, but I do not seem to remember any of those guys saying we should take him before the draft, or even right after it. It was only after he got off to a fast start that people were jocking him. Basically these are the same people who tell me we could have had Rondo instead of Balkman. While Balkman didn’t make any sense, no one was Jocking Rondo when he came out of college, a point guard who can’t shoot and makes alot of bad decisions with the basketball. Rondo had a 4 assist 10 turnover game against Miss. St. So no one thought he was a lock. When Danny Ainge took him, people were saying that he wasted the pick!.
But with all that said there is one more reason why we took Hill. Lee was not a lock to return. So we needed to get a Big otherwise we would have been even thinner there.
by Robert Currence on May 24, 2010 3:28 PM EDT reply actions
Totally agree
But Hill over Jennings is significantly more defensible than Balkman over Rondo (or anyone) was. Hill was basically universally seen as the best big man after Thabeet. Balkman wasn’t even on 1st round draft boards when he was taken. Though, in Isiah’s defense, Chandler wasn’t either, and he’d turned into a pretty solid player.
I think part of the point on Balkman wasnt THAT we drafted him
it was that he was on no one else’s radar. If I remember correctly, he wasn’t even on the main draft roster of like 100 or so draftees. Balkman was entirely obscure, meaning Isiah could have waited to grab him inthe 2nd round. It was fine to draft him, but unnecessary to draft him as high as he did.
"you're the Rod Thorn in my Chris Bosh side."
by Chris Child's Fist on May 24, 2010 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Good point
The issue was when he was taken, Isaiah had scouted him personally and saw him as a potential lock down defender. I saw him play in College and the dude guarded everything from point guards to centers. Remember Isaiah played with Rodman and he saw Balkman as a more sane Rodman type. The problem was the Knicks had far more needs and really couldn’t afford to draft a defensive specialist that high. Collins too was a pick for defense, although Mardy did do more scoring at Temple than Balkman.
by Robert Currence on May 24, 2010 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, and also aside from Rondo (who was very unknown)
there were bigger names like Kyle Lowry, Marcus Williams, Jordan Farmar, and Craig Smith who we could have taken. However, we also had like 6 Gs so we didnt really need another. Crawford, Nate, Marbury, Francis, Jalen Rose, Penny Hardaway.
"you're the Rod Thorn in my Chris Bosh side."
by Chris Child's Fist on May 24, 2010 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Well
The Suns had worked him out and rumor was they were going to keep their next pick and draft him if he was still available.
Anyway, I drool at having Rondo now but the fact is that he did pass by 20 other picks, so it’s hard to destroy Isiah for doing the same.
"Dishin' and swishin' in transition"
by Serious Garbage Time on May 24, 2010 9:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Nice Post
I am not nearly as critical of the pick as many others. The only problem I have is how Donnie seemed extract as little value from the pick as possible. He had to know that Hill was somewhat of a project and was going to take time to develop. No problem in drafting a guy like that, as long the team eventually reaps some benefits from his improvement. In this case, Donnie drafted a project, waited until his value was at its absolute nadir, and then packaged our next two draft picks along with him to free up cap space. Had he drafted a player able to contribute more immediately, maybe we only throw in one pick or at least have more protection.
"But when he saw it, he just put his hands up and they couldn’t give it to him. It just fell to the ground, I-I don’t, you know … So, that showed me he had great experience..." - Jeff Van Gundy
by Anthony Bonner's Subpoena on May 24, 2010 3:49 PM EDT reply actions
I also think Hill was negotiation leverage
Remember D. Lee and his agent were talking 10 mil, Donnie didn’t want to pay it, so taking a guy who plays Lee’s position sent a message that Donnie was prepared to move on without him. The real problem was when Hill showed nothing during the summer league, Walsh thought he would be raw but did thinnk he was in a better place to contribute than he was.
by Robert Currence on May 24, 2010 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, Hill was a pawn to bring down Lee's value
Best case if Lee left, Hill would be able to contribute. But if Lee stayed, then Hill suddenly gave us front court depth. It just didnt play out the way we wanted and walsh decided we needed the flexibility of McGradys expiring contract since the rumor was the cap would lower significantly. Its not like NY was LOOKING to dump Hill. But Houston rightfully wanted some value for TMac. They knew his contract was a significant amount. They took a combination veteran defender and young prospect and picks. Houston had the leverage.
"you're the Rod Thorn in my Chris Bosh side."
by Chris Child's Fist on May 24, 2010 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Walsh Fucked up, should have taken a point guard
and Jennings was the best one left. The boy can ball and we are making excuses, Donnie fucked up, it happens move on.
Nope
I’d rather have Jrue or Lawson instead of Jennings.
"Dishin' and swishin' in transition"
by Serious Garbage Time on May 24, 2010 9:18 PM EDT up reply actions
OK
he could have drafted him. But being that the guy didnt prove shyt to anyone except that he worked out well pre-draft wise. It would have made Donnie look like a genius maybe to take him. But it doesnt make it a fuck up move that he didnt.
Toney does what the douglas do. And no one can do what he does b/c doing it without being Toney Douglas just doesnt make it do what it do
While we did need a PG, Hill was a logical pick
We lacked size (still do) and he’s a perfect fit for D’Antoni’s offense. He’s a big man who can run the floor, block some shots, and has shown glimpses of a mid-range jumper. He’s still very raw and I think he’ll be a decent player in 2-3 years. The problem is Donnie needed to get a player to play right away to attract talent and Hill wasn’t that. He lacked confidence, basketball IQ, and toughness. I definitely am disappointed we missed out on Jennings, but we got Douglas and there’s nothing we can do about it.
by HanginfromtheGallo's on May 24, 2010 6:43 PM EDT reply actions
I disagree that there was no reason to draft Jennings
they knew Duhan was garbage…they talked to a bunch of available PG (Kidd, Sessions, white chocolate, am I missing anyone??) so they knew the position was a need…..they watched him twice during workouts, one which DW attended when they brought him in…. he was told to draft Jennings by a Knicks scout…..and he would have been perfect to run dantonis bs system think of how electric the garden would have been this year….
I am happy w/ Douglas…but would have been MUCH happier w Jennings….
actually
didnt the scouts not choose jennings? which is why that report came out when walsh said that the scouting dept wasnt “close-knit” and was still mostly formed of Isaihs hirings? Walsh was saying something like the scouting dept didnt once come up to him raging about jennings which is why he didnt choose him…
Toney does what the douglas do. And no one can do what he does b/c doing it without being Toney Douglas just doesnt make it do what it do
I remember that too, yes. Walsh hadn't seen much of Jennings at all. Scouts seemed to dismiss him over his perceived ego maybe?
"you're the Rod Thorn in my Chris Bosh side."
by Chris Child's Fist on May 25, 2010 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Maybe you could look at it two ways.
here is a piece from the article…."As the Knicks president, Walsh is ultimately responsible for the pick and yet he continues to hint that part of the problem lies within the scouting department he inherited. Mark Hughes, Rodney Heard, Walker D. Russell and Steve Yoder were all hired by Thomas. Russell, in fact, was believed to be one of Jennings’ strongest advocates. "
So it seems like one of his scouts was really big on Jennings, but maybe he didn’t push hard enough? But how hard do you have to push? If you think he’s gonna be good, you say we should draft him (which it seems is what happened)….if you think he’s a superstar, maybe that’s when you come in raging….I don’t think you can say that scout didn’t want him….
Ultimately, its correct that its on Walsh. Regardless of the reasons why, Jennings (or another PG) would prob have been a better choice than Hill
"you're the Rod Thorn in my Chris Bosh side."
by Chris Child's Fist on May 25, 2010 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions
The Pick was Donnie's
Scouts don’t make picks they merely collect data and some times make suggestions. Donnie probably had a list of 5 to 10 players that were projected to be available with the 8th pick. They usually rank these guys in order 1,2nd, 3rd choice etc. And it could very well be that two or more guys on the Knicks list could have been gone and he went with the next guy. We know Curry was gone at 7 and Rubio at 5. Those were two guys the Knicks thought they had a shot at.
by Robert Currence on May 25, 2010 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions
i think donnies board
I still am not sold on Jennings. He had a good season, but as I have always said… after their rookie year, Stephon Marbury looked like the class of the draft that had nash and kobe in it…
Jennings would have made this team interesting, sure.
However, as much as we bitch about Duhon’s shooting, or lack thereof, lets not forget that Jennings shot horribly for the season. And the Bucks had some weapons. On this NY team, had he shown that ability to score like he did in his 55pt game, we would have been clamoring for that to happen again and then bitching and moaning as his shooting % nosedived. And who knows how is ego would handle the pressures of NY? I mean, I like the kid, I do, but this idea of him being this amazing star and a HUGE blunder is just too much. Lawson and Collison both look just as good as Jennings. But yeah, we might have been better served by drafting a PG. But at least Walsh had legit reasons for drafting the way he did. And knowing the draft carries ZERO guarantees, I’m very much ok with Donnie Walsh’s reasonings. We would have drafted Jonny Flynn or Steph Curry if we could.
We should be able to put this debate to bed by now. Old news.
"you're the Rod Thorn in my Chris Bosh side."
by Chris Child's Fist on May 25, 2010 10:17 AM EDT reply actions
Minn really screwed us
when they were about to pick. I thought for sure we were gonna and up with rubio, curry or flynn
i think donnies top 3 choices went to the 3 picks right before he drafted.
Minnesota fucked themselves too
sure they nabbed 2 solid PGs…but well, as much as Rubio wanted to play for NY or another big market, seeing them draft Flynn next surely played a role in Rubio coming over. He doesn’t want a timeshare. And they had other needs to address too. Now with the Jefferson/Love thing happening, it will be interesting to see how Minnesota clusterfucks itself again this year. they have 3 1st Round picks.
Yeah, I smell trades too….
"you're the Rod Thorn in my Chris Bosh side."
by Chris Child's Fist on May 25, 2010 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions
I really wanted Jennings from the start...I wanted Curry more,
but I figured both would be solid rookies. Turns out I was right. No surprises there.
I feel like if you are trying to attract star swingmen (which we are/were) you need a good point guard, which we didn’t have last summer, and, since we passed up on drafting Jennings, we might not have for a while. I won’t be able to support this with any evidence, but didn’t Donnie say he passed on Jennings because he hadn’t got a chance to see him play? Isn’t that Donnie’s job during the summer, to see players play and sign them when they demonstrate potential?
Having said that, on the day of the draft Lee wasn’t on the team, and Hill has the potential to be a taller, more athletic, more defensively talented David Lee.
that last point you made is a big one
What if they never signed Lee? What if Lee got a long term deal somewhere else? Teh Knicks didn’t know how the market would play out. IF they had that same crystal ball, pretty sure they’d take a gander at who pans out among Jennings, Hill etc. (and most likely draft Jonas Jerebko).
Whether or not Hill was the best prospect…who was the next best PF that was at least semi- NBA ready and was actually worth the #8 pick?
If they were reasonably certain about Toney Douglas with the Lakers pick (and I heard that they’d draft TD even before the draft with that pick…), the PF was the one they go for at #8 to cover their arses for Lee.
by FreeBradshaw on May 25, 2010 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Jennings is overrated
The man is quoted as saying he wants to play like Iverson … how’d that turn out? He isn’t as fast or as skilled as AI but has his me-first style where he thinks he can average 30 PPG. I don’t see that ride ending well.
The best PG available at the Knicks pick turned out to be Darren Collison, a player I had my eye on. What bugs me is that Jonas Jerebko, Casspi, & Collison were all players I was looking for the Knicks to draft, if they didn’t take Washington’s offer to move up, and NYK ended up with none of them … Hill? Really??
I agree with all your points about D Lee, needing to trade for cap space, etc., but I cannot excuse the pick when there were better options that were available and I cannot excuse giving up so many potential lotto picks for cap relief.
Walsh better have a verbal guarantee from LeBron that he’s coming to NYC if Donnie clears enough cap for two max deals, otherwise these moves carry far too much risk.
I would have taken Lawson
Even at the time. Yes that’s higher than he was rated but the guy makes up for his height with tremendous speed, three-point range, and creativity. The guy was rated as the top point guard prospect coming out of high school and has great athleticism.
Plus, he has the swagger to be an MSG point guard.
GO CUSE, BLUE, AND EAGLES!
Yet Minnesota drafted him and traded him!
How much longer do you think Shaka Khan keeps his job? Some draft analyst have him taking 4 centers in the first round!
I suspect he will be fired at the end of the season, which may open up a shot at trading for Rubio.
Why not trade him?
Minn got a future first round pick in exchange. Plus they already had Flynn and rights to Rubio. They picked up Sessions later also, and while he’s not that great, he had similar numbers to Lawson.
It takes Min forever to fire people…look how long McHale was there….
This isn't baseball
They drafted 2 PG’s in the lotto, 4 PG’s overall I believe. They signed an undrafted PG afterward and then signed a free agent PG!!
Then they were talking about drafting John Wall … what the hell do they need to hold Ricky Rubio’s rights for with all those PG’s!?? The man doesn’t even want to play for them and I honestly think he never will!
McHale was is an NBA legend, guys like that get lots of slack, just look at all the rope IT was given in New York, before being replaced by Walsh/Pringles.
Khan is a former reporter with no creditability whatsoever, has a black eye from the worst draft anyone has seen this past decade and will get a couple more bruises if he ends up drafting 4 centers as some are predicting. Another losing season and I see him get banished, not just from Minnesota but from the NBA, especially if Portland’s GM is let go. I suspect the Wolves would try and snatch him up quick.
He was actually mentored by Donnie....
and served as Indiana’s GM for a little.
Another X on Donnie's record then
He has to do a better job of selecting a GM here in NYC, we’ve had enough with incompetent GM’s here with the dark ages we just came out of.
I’m none too pleased with these rumors that he’s considering handing the keys to Allan Houston … i’d much rather have someone with more experience/success.
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