Why I'd (almost) rather wait.

by Vortex7 on Jul 24, 2010 1:50 PM EDT

First, I know I'm going to get lambasted for this - and I'll deserve it. I don't expect this to be a popular opinion and I'm sure most people will be glad that I'm not Allan Houston, Isaih Thomas, Chris Mullen or any of the other 2387 potential GMs of the future.

Second, I love the Big 3. Miami's Big 3. There was a point in my life, during the Ewing/Mourning era when both teams were relevant, that there was no professional sports team that I hated more than the Miami Heat. Those days may be back. Miami has done everything they could to play NBA Live and force a super team and they're going to surround them with players like Mike Miller (who, for an aging sharp-shooter - doesn't score too much) and Zydrunas Ilgauskas (who was done years ago). Chalk me up as one of the people who sees the Heat as a perennial #1 seed in the East, winners of 65 a year, and a team that may win one or two titles. But not three or four.

I don't believe in Big 3's being capable of dynasties. I think if the Lakers (lord hate them) have taught anybody anything is that two All-Stars (Bryant and Gasol) plus a bunch of very good pieces (Odom, Bynum, Artest, etc) is a more consistent way to success.

That's why I'd rather wait and not trade for Chris Paul. This isn't about wanting 'Melo more (though I do) or the fact that if we traded for Paul now we wouldn't be able to have them both (I don't want a Big 3 in New York). This is about the pieces you put around those stars and the flexibility you afford yourself.

If we were to trade say, Gallo, Azubuike, Chandler, and Curry's expiring contract for Paul and Okafor's garbage contract - you do two things that hurt your team without even getting to the "Carmelo Should We Wait or Not" debate. One, instantly 2 of your Top 4 (maybe even Top 3) players are 6'1 or shorter. It seems like the excitement that we have our best PG since tattoo ink start seeping into Marbury's brain lasted less than a few days. There's no doubt that Paul is the better of the two - but that doesn't mean Felton isn't a more than capable starting PG that, at 26, couldn't improve into a leader on a championship team. Anybody who watched him at UNC knows that he has the potential to flourish and a wide-open, fast paced offense and he and Douglas give us excellent defense at the position - something I can't remember the last time we had. Trade for Paul, all of a sudden our hands are tied and there's no way, come December, a team would offer fair value for Felton. Why would they?

Two, you're trading away a potential sharp-shooting complimentary star (Gallo), a potential defensive specialist at the 2 and 3 (Azubuike), and a young and injury prone, yet versatile scorer (Chandler). Now, I'd expect this to be Chandler's last year in New York anyway, but Gallo is potentially a Lamar Odom (not in style but in purpose) - a very good third best player and, if he stays healthy, Azubuike may be worth an inexpensive contract extension at the end of the season.

At this point, one of things we have to hang our hat on, something that gives us realistic play-off aspirations for the first time in God-knows - is our length. Versatile, athletic length. Gallo can play anywhere from the 2 to the 4 - Randolph can play all 3 front court positions, Amar'e can play the 4 and 5. That's an asset few teams can compete with. Why trade part of that away?

I understand the thought "a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush". There's a sense of security in securing a second star right now rather than wait for Melo like we did LeBron last year (though I never saw LeBron coming here like I do 'Melo.) But trading some valuable pieces (and taking on a bogus contract in Okafor's - a bruiser who fits in even less than David Lee did) just irks me. It isn't as if his heart is set on New York (hence him flirting with the Magic). If we were to strike out with him there's another, less expensive speedy, injury-prone point guard who'd walk to New York to sign with us (Tony Parker). If you're going to trade away youth and size at least do so for better youth and size (I hope rumors that Denver may be willing to trade 'Melo are actually true.) In the mean time, I'm going to fantasize about a 2010/2011 playoff season and a 2011/2012 starting line up of Felton, Gallinari, Anthony, Stoudemire, and Turiaf with quality players like Randolph, Azubuike, Douglas and (hopefully) Mozgov and Fields coming off the bench. A team with an All-NBA forward tandem with a powerful enough supporting cast to go head to head with even the most dynamic Big 3.

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I agree with most of this...

and yes, I’d rather wait.

CP3 is almost an infinitely better player for a team then Melo is, but the reality is that its really CP3 vs. Felton + Gallo+Randolph+ Chandler+ TD + still the potential for Melo..is a better situation.

DEPTH, is what gets you the Chip. The Lakers like you said, and the Celtics too…are up there because of their depth.

Big 3 doesn’t win, as much as a solid 4+ bench, wins.

I’d still try and get CP3 now, but I’d just lowball (Chandler, Curry’s carcass, TD… with the option of AR to get it done, for Paul alone.) the Hornets and see if they bite. Why not?

Go New York Go!

by FreeBradshaw on Jul 24, 2010 2:09 PM EDT reply actions

I also agree and I dont think your gonna catch a lot of hate for this post. Not on this site at least.

I constantly change my mind on the matter. Should we sign him or see how good our team is now? Right now, I’m hoping New Orleans says screw everyone hes staying. That way we can see how these new additions play together before trading them. I wanna know EXACTLY what we are losing. If we trade AR and he becomes a star it would piss me off. So lets keep em and see where it goes from there. This team can be better then what anyone’s expected, we’re bigger, more defensive and we’re young. If they play to their potential and get a nice chemistry we’d be a force. A force.

"As humans we strive for success but live with fear. If success was inevitable, fear cannot exist" Michael Kelley

by MikeTheIntern on Jul 24, 2010 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions

You said in a paragraph what I've tried to say in...well more than one paragraph

It’s about defensive and depth. When was the last time we were able to even pose the idea that we’d have quality players coming off the bench to stop the opposition’s best scorers? I know people want Randolph to become a star but honestly, if he stays the same rangy defender he is and just matures his game a bit – I don’t care if he becomes a starter. I’d settle for a guy who can move around all three front-court positions providing defensive and explosiveness in transition. Same thing with Azubuike (who I like a lot). Same thing with Douglas (have I mentioned how much I love our PG defense right now?)

I think the NBA gets too caught up in players who have their own sneakers. Yes, Chris Paul is a super-star who can flourish here, but making rash decisions is how we got into this mess. We aren’t going to win a NBA title next season even if Chris Paul does come in. We would have traded away some potentially important pieces and with Okafor – who I don’t see as a major upgrade of Turiaf – we handicap ourselves from adding pieces in the future. I think this year we have to build around STAT, Gallo, and Felton and develop players like Randolph, Azubuike, and Douglas. You build through youth.

by Vortex7 on Jul 24, 2010 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions

The problem with that is

If we wait to see whether AR becomes a star, we might also be waiting until he becomes a bust. And he’d have no real trade value then. You never know, and waiting to see exactly what you’re losing would make little sense when trading away prospects. I love Randolph, but his trade value is pretty high right now.

I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is that moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle - victorious.

Vince Lombardi

by moose35 on Jul 24, 2010 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions

I doubt we'd trade Gallo

Probably Randolph if we have to do one of the 2. But saying you’d rather wait for Melo IF he comes is stupid if you can get Paul RIGHT NOW. I’m not saying trade anything for him, but despite a bad contract, Okafor’s a good player, and would play C with STAT playing his usual position. Then we’d have a lineup of: Paul/Walker/Gallo/Stoudemire/Okafor. Obviously our bench would be lacking depth, but that’s a nasty line-up.

Let’s see how it plays out. We don’t know how the talks are going, and I’m definite there are ongoing talks.

Vince Lombardi

by moose35 on Jul 24, 2010 2:22 PM EDT reply actions

Here's my problem with your logic.

1. Yes, it makes sense for the Knicks to offer a talented yet unproven commodity in Randolph instead of Gallinari – but would that fly for the Hornets(hardy har har)?

2. Your bench and dismissal of talented youth. Bare with me for a moment.

Maybe I have a unique view of things because – basketball wise – I only watch NCAA and the Knicks on MSG and don’t give two sh*ts about the rest of the NBA until the playoffs. Now while that obviously makes me a bad fan of the NBA as a whole – I do get to see what the Knicks are and how they compare to the sorts of teams we want to emulate.

I really do believe that if our youth continues to develop at their current rate (which shouldn’t be too far-fetched in the cases of Gallo, Randolph, and Felton) I really do believe we’re a Caremelo Anthony away from perhaps not winning as many regular season games as the Heat – but being a team that can nab a 2 or 3 seed and be a nightmare in the playoffs.

Now picture my proposed starting 5 of Felton, Gallinari, Anthony, Stoudemire, and Turiaf with a bench of Randolph, Azubuike, Douglas, Fields, and Mozgov – I’m not even counting on the likelihood that Melo coming here would attract other quality veterans to signing veteran minimum deals.

Conservatively let’s say they get a 3 seed behind the Heat and the Magic (who trade Nelson, Carter, Posey, and Songaila for Paul and Okafor). We’d obviously be favored in the 1st Round. 2nd Round, we get the Magic. We concede the center battle – as any team the Magic play would have to – but Turiaf can be a Kendrick Perkins – type mop up man and of Mozgov (in his 2nd year in the league) provides quality minutes we can play damage control.

I don’t feel as terrible about the Felton vs. Paul as I should because, while they win that match up too – the fact of the matter is Felton is the physical defender we need on Paul and while they will need Paul to carry the scoring load for stretches – we won’t need that from Paul. Then from 2-4 plus the bench we dominate them. Rashard Lewis on STAT? I’d love it. They want to use Howard to neutralize STAT? We put Randolph in Lewis’ face on defense and then start picking and rolling with both of them – Howard can stop STAT or Randolph but not both. Pietrus and Redick are great defenders on guys who are an inch or two taller than them – but what about Gallo at 6’10 spreading the floor hitting the three. Neither has the size or creativity to expose him defensively so our length suffocates them.

Against the Heat – you do more of the same – neutralize their best players and then dominate the rest. They want to play small-ball and drive to the basket? Play zone and force them to shoot over our length. James vs. Anthony may wind up being some of the most legendary battles in recent NBA history. I’d take Stoudemire on Bosh all day – especially knowing that at any moment Randolph can come in as both a defensive specialist against Bosh and, potentially, James and a guy who can be the Knick’s answer as a crafty lefty.

Felton on Wade is an obvious mismatch – but that’s why you keep a player with the potential of Azubuike on the team. All good playoff teams have player like Pietrus or Ariza or Bell who can come off the bench and devote their minutes to defense and stopping the opposition’s best man. That’s what Azubuike can be. Somebody you use to just shadow a player like Wade in a 7 game series. And that’s just us guarding them. Who are they going to put on Gallo? LeBron can’t guard both he and ‘Melo. Who’s going to help Bosh when STAT blows by him? Z? He’ll foul out before halftime.

I know this is very long winded – but I’m excited by our depth and youth and the flexibility we walk into the next year with – and while I know this is all hypothetical – I don’t see it as any more hypothetical than assuming Paul/Okafor is the answer either. This team, as constructed, is just one step away from going into a NBA finals against the Lakers where the athletic length they suffocated Orlando and Boston with (Bynum, Gasol, Odom) isn’t as scary to us (Randolph, Stoudemire, Gallinari) as it would be for other teams and that we’d have a rising star (Melo) to compete with their aging (yet still the best in the NBA) in Bryant. I’m sorry…I gotta dream.

by Vortex7 on Jul 24, 2010 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions

First off

Really well written. I appreciate people who take time into writing things up like that.

But all your speculation, although realistic, isn’t set in stone. Randolph might not pan out. Gallinari might not be the player we expect him to be. Stoudemire’s knees or eyes might get screwed, and so would we. Now while I know Paul is far away from a sure thing, let’s take a step back and wait till the season starts before we become a number 2 seed upsetting the Magic. Carmelo might not come here either-actually, odds are he doesn’t. Paul improves us right now. If we started the season with him, we’d have a pretty damn good team. Obviously it depends on the deal, which is why I’m saying only take him if it’s a reasonable deal. But Okafor and Paul for Curry, Randolph and Chandler would be a steal in my opinion.

All I’m saying is this is a 6-8th seed team as of right now. If we add Paul (for a price that doesn’t strip us of everything), we become a contender. Let’s see how it works out, but I definitely want him here.

Vince Lombardi

by moose35 on Jul 24, 2010 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions

Thanks, I usually just stay quiet and read on here

Maybe I’ll bug you guys more.

Yes, it’s obvious speculation and while Gallo, Randolph, and Felton may not improve the way we think they will – I still think it’s likely. Gallo gets it. I was booing at home when we drafted him too (I wanted Bayless) – but the guy gets it, or at least gets what D’Antoni wants out of him. And Felton is, in a way, leaving home to come home. He leaves the Carolinas but he returns to the sort of style that made him a first round pick in the first place.

Here’s the trade Bill Simmons projects would bring Paul to NY. Like him or not, the man understands the cap and how it works.

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=244o2kq

I kid you not, I’d hang myself (ok, slightly kidding). And that’s if New Orleans prefers that trade to a Orlando offer of a bona-fide replacement (Nelson) along with more established pieces like Carter, Gortat, and Pietrus or potential offers from teams like Houston and Dallas.

Could Stoudemire get hurt? Of course. So could Chris Paul – a diminutively sized point guard who depends on driving down the lane and already missed half of last season with injuries. He’s not exactly made of stone either. The difference is – right now if Stoudemire got hurt we have players like Gallinari and Randolph who can provide more relief than James Posey at this point. If we get Chris Paul and his knee gives out who do we turn to? Toney Douglas – a raw but promising combo guard? No, because he’s in New Orleans.

Also, Paul and Stoudemire make us contenders. The Utah Jazz are contenders – consistently netting 50+ wins with a duo of Williams (who I sacrilegiously favor to Paul) and Boozer (now Jefferson). Do we want to be them? No. Because they’ll always be in the playoffs but will never threat for a crown because they don’t have the players around their Top 2 to make that push. The Knicks would be the same with Stoudemire and Paul – a better regular season team right now, but a team missing the role players and depth to threaten past the first or second round.

by Vortex7 on Jul 24, 2010 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions

Well yea

If that’s what it takes to get Paul, then screw it. I was thinking something along the lines of Curry+Randolph+Chandler+TD/Walker/Turiaf/Azubuike. But that’s way too much. I obviously don’t share the popular consensus as to what it’d take to get Paul lol.

Vince Lombardi

by moose35 on Jul 24, 2010 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions

I think Simmons came up with that trade to upset Knick fans

He’s a prick like that

by Dutchmarau on Jul 25, 2010 3:16 AM EDT up reply actions

Yea, he is.

But he has other teams shelling out loads young, cheap talent for some combination of Paul/Okafor/Posey/and Peja. The fact of the matter is, when you compound the overall bizarre nature of NBA trades with the competition teams will participate in in order to get Paul – I wouldn’t be surprised if it takes a trade along those lines to make it work. While we view those young players as potential building blocks of a franchise, New Orleans will look at Orlando’s offer of Nelson, Carter, Gortat, and maybe Pietrus and see pieces that can have more of an immediate impact – so they’d ask for more players from us and for us to take on a player like James Posey simply because they’d be in the driver’s seat.

by Vortex7 on Jul 25, 2010 4:17 AM EDT up reply actions

But thats the thing that should make you ignore Bill Simmons completely

As good as Chris Paul is (and he is very good), teams are just NOT going to be raping their own teams just to get him.

New Orleans is NOT going to clean house here. Sure, they will get some very good talent in a trade. OR they are going to move Paul along with ONE bad contract (they have 3.. Okafor, Peja, Posey) for some good talent and some expirings.

But mark it down here guys. It doesn’t take an expert to see that teams are gonna be hesitant to raise their team salary so much with a new Collective Bargaining Agreement next season!! Also, if a team strips their roster to get 3 guys, they are NOT going to be able to fill that roster up like the Heat did. What name veteran players are still Free Agents here that would ‘flock’ to this new “Big 3”?? Shaq? Tracy McGrady? Allen Iverson? Rafer Alston? Kwame Brown? How about Adam Morrison? The only one I’d go for might be Josh Howard to be honest.

New Orleans has similar problems that Knicks just dug out of… they signed a number of guys to poor contracts but they aren’t pulling in enough $$ to maintain. They aren’t going to magically erase all of that in ONE Chris Paul trade that includes Okafor, Posey and Peja either.

Well.. unless they move them to Minnesota… David Kahn is always on the lookout for a PG…

"you're the Rod Thorn in my Chris Bosh side."

by Chris Child's Fist on Jul 25, 2010 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions

Yeah, sorry, but Bill Simmons is pretty stupid to think THAT is the deal

I mean, yeah, super score for New Orleans if they can land SEVEN guys while dumping Okafor’s contract in the process…

But yeah, I love seeing trades like that. It makes me relax more because obviously, the person who thinks that is the deal is entirely out of the loop.

Seriously, if Dell Demps called Donnie Walsh and said “Hey Donnie, Dell here. Listen, you guys want Chris Paul… Ok, we are gonna need Gallinari, Randolph, Turiaf, Azubuike, Douglas, Chandler, and Eddy Curry’s expiring… and we’ll also give you Okafor & Posey.”

He would be talking to a dial tone.

"you're the Rod Thorn in my Chris Bosh side."

by Chris Child's Fist on Jul 25, 2010 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions

As I said,

I don’t think that is the deal – but I do believe that we’d have to give up more than 3 or 4 players. If Gallo’s name is mentioned, in my opinion, we should hang up the phone.

I think we have to consider how much better off we’d actually be with Paul and Okafor. I know there’s a “whatever it takes to get Paul” mentality and on the outset Okafor seems like a slight upgrade over Turiaf, but that contract is the kind of thing that can destoy our championship dreams over the next 3-4 years. We’d go the playoffs but having his lame duck contract (after giving up young talent like Randolph and/or Gallo) will prevent us from putting the proper role players around STAT and CP3.

Again, I don’t see the need here to bring in Paul and Okafor. We just commited 8M a year over the next 2-3 years for Raymond Felton. We don’t even know how could he can be. Chris Paul level? Absolutely not, but what if Felton, as he matures in a system that better suits his skill-set, cracks the Top 10 of NBA PGs? Not Paul/Williams/Nash good but maybe Nelson/Calderon good. That’s not very far-fetched. Would it be worth it to give up the pieces we’d have to give up to pay Paul double and take on Okafor’s contract – when for all we know Turiaf can play 25 quality minutes a game with Mozgov and Randolph developing behind him? I’m not so sure. I’m not so sure you give up on your plans like that. Walsh/D’Antoni though enough of these guys to bring them in – see what they have to offer on the court first. We have two, young, promising PGs. We have good, quality length down low (why add Okafor to a center rotation of Turiaf and Mozgov when Stoudmire and Randolph will get minutes there too?)

Interestingly enough, if we move Gallo to the 2 like many (including myself) expect and choose to rotate Randolph around the front court rather than start him…we would have an opening at the 3. And say, if there were a worth-while player who was put on the market there, maybe my views would change slightly…

by Vortex7 on Jul 25, 2010 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions

Simmons will do anything in his "power" to trash NY.

He’d probably say the Knicks are pulling a NYY if they go and get a “big three” somehow. He’s a typical hypocritical Boston fan.

Go New York Go!

by FreeBradshaw on Jul 25, 2010 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions

Preach it Vortex. I share your vision.

I much prefer Melo to Paul. Not that Paul isn’t great, he is, but I think Melo is the final piece. He’s a scoring machine that can drop buckets in isolation or off of a catch-and-shoot. He’s the go-to guy we need in the clutch right now. Someone who can take the game over in the final minutes out of a half-court set. And I would love to see a Melo-STAT pick and roll; it would be murderous with Melo’s sick mid-range game.

If we can go with that squad you just named, we could contend. That 5 and that bench can play with anybody IMO.

by Crackback on Jul 24, 2010 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions

Obviously some typos there.

Songaila would be going from New Orleans to Orlando and we wouldn’t need Felton to score – not Paul (who I have on the Magic).

by Vortex7 on Jul 24, 2010 3:23 PM EDT reply actions

Leave this team alone

for the time being. When you make these blockbuster deals, you have to let the dust settle. You need some time to see if the chemistry is right. As someone has already mentioned, this team has real depth. The big question mark is Randolph. I have no idea what the problem was between him and Nelson, but Donnie and the staff thought he was worth the risk. Even if they are wrong about Randolph, the Knicks should still make the playoffs. But if he contributes, they will be vastly improved.

by Vincent C on Jul 24, 2010 3:52 PM EDT reply actions

sometimes the best trades

are the ones that never happen.

Go New York Go!

by FreeBradshaw on Jul 24, 2010 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions

The bird in the hand thought

I think we have a couple of birds in hand right now in Gallo and Randolph. They’re 21, former lottery picks, and they’ve shown they belong in the NBA. I’m not familiar enough with Randolph to point to specific games of his, but that game in March in the Garden against Denver where Gallo wanted to go head to head with Carmelo and did, that was incredible.

Before and after the game Gallo spoke about wanting to put himself against the NBA’s best to see what he needed to do to get to that level. A young player’s ambition to be mentioned among the best in the game is as important as any physical characteristic. And again, I can’t speak to those qualities in Randolph, but he’s joining a coaching staff that turned David Lee into an All-Star, Boris Diaw into the Most Improved Player of the year, and Leandro Barbosa into a perennial 6th man of the year candidate. I like his chances to improve.

If Paul will be given away, then you take him. If not, fuck him and his prima donna act. Shit won’t work in New York anyway, not for a second. There’s not a city in the league that keeps players humble and demands they stay that way like NYC does. If Amare’s arrival has shown anything, it’s the manner in which he’s approached joining the Knicks that makes him best suited to lead the team going forward. He didn’t bitch and moan his way to the Knicks, he dominated the Western Conference Playoffs on his way to a max deal. He didn’t complain his way there the way Chris Paul is.

by Dutchmarau on Jul 24, 2010 6:24 PM EDT reply actions

we came from donnie's toys r us shopping and he got us some of the best he could get...

from the transformers aisle including some that amount to 80 bucks or so (insert stat here) then we go want to get the bigger toy after the shopping? nope sorry we can just wait for the season to start let’s just open the presents as donnie bought us what we most probably wanted a competitive team that is going to be exciting to watch

by PTfromRP on Jul 25, 2010 12:53 AM EDT reply actions