SB Nation New York Editor's Pick
Doesn't the system make the man?
Unrelated: I'm an enormous Denver Broncos fan. Enormous. Not that any of you should care, I'm just saying. Before last season my fellow fans were up in arms over the fact that a career back-up, Kyle Orton, would be our team's quarterback. I loved it. It fits him - I thought. He was a player who made a name for himself in college as a spread formation quarterback, struggled in Chicago's run/throw deep system, and now would be returning to his comfort zone. People were calling for his head before he stepped out onto the field for Week 1, but -while the team itself fell apart down the stretch - Orton, a career back up, served as a solid - if not a statistically slightly above average - starting quarterback.
What the hell does any of that have to do with the Knicks? Raymond Felton. Raymond Felton is a solid, maybe even slightly above average NBA PG who I think can become great in New York.
I'll be the first to admit - when he first signed with us I winced a little. Just under 8M a year for the guy from Charlotte? What about Tony Parker? Chris Paul? How are we going to unload this contract if need be. And then it occurred to me - we won't. In my post yesterday, I remarked in the comments how while Felton will never be a Deron Williams/Chris Paul/Steve Nash kind of talent - if he's able to be a Top 10 talent like Jameer Nelson or Jose Calderon - it'd be worth it to let Chris Paul pass us by, keep our young assets, and make a run for Melo either via trade of free agency. When I first wrote that I thought I was exaggerating a little. I don't anymore. Not only do I think Felton becoming a Top 10 PG is possible - I think it's probable.
During the 2003/2004 season Felton, a sophomore PG at UNC averaged 11.5 PPG, 4.0 RPG, 7.1 APG, and 2.1 SPG in 34.6 MPG for a team that was 13th in the NCAA in possessions per game (73.7). During the 2004/2005 sason, Felton - a junior - averaged 12.9 ppg, 4.3 RPG, 6.9 APG, and 2.0 steals a game in 31.7 MPG for a team that was 3rd in the NCAA in possessions per game (75.7). Felton wound up being a first team All-ACC performer and helped lead the Tar Heels to a National Championship - 2 months later the Bobcats made him the fifth overall pick.
Over the past two seasons, the Bobcats have been one of the NBA's slowest paced teams, finishing 26th in the NBA in possessions per game in each of the past 2 seasons (92.1 and 93.5 respectively.) Meanwhile, the Knicks have finished 2nd and 9th over the past 2 seasons (100.0 and 97.3 respectively) in possessions per game - and bare in mind that that's with Chris Duhon walking up the court - one would assume D'Antoni would kick it up a gear with Felton.
Despite playing in a slower-paced system Felton has still averaged 13.3 PPG, 3.4 RPG, 6.4 APG, and 1.4 SPG throughout his career - including a very impressive 14.4/3.0/7.4/1.2 campaign in 2007-2008 and a 14.2/3.8/6.7/1.5 run in 2008-2009 while playing 37.6 MPG in each season (as compared to his 33.0 MPG in 2009-2010). If those stats don't impress you, go look at Calderon's stats, or Nelson's or Bibby's. Felton, who is still a young player, saw his FG% and 3PT% reach career highs last season and I think there is every reason to believe that with more minutes per game (I don't see Douglas logging the minutes at the point that Augustin took in Charlotte ) and a few more possessions a game Felton can seriously improve upon those stats and will able to score and dish with some of the best of them. Hell, even if his averages only improve modestly - say he's a 15 point, 4 rebound, 8 assist guy this year - who among us is going to complain? Look at the other point guards in the league, that would be damn good.
And that's just what he brings on the offensive end. Last year, I was giddy when the Knicks made the move to acquire Toney Douglas having - like many of you - just seen him reek havoc on Felton's old Tar Heels in the ACC Tournament in route to ACC Defensive Player of the Year honors. Finally, I thought, our first PG since Chris Childs who can bring it on the defensive end. Now we have two. Felton is an above average pressure defender who can collect his share of steals. Plus, you have to consider his durability. At just under 200 pounds Felton has the frame to withstand the punishment of a NBA season having averaged 80 gams a years during his career. Compare that to Tony Parker (180 pounds, 74 gams per year during his career including just 56 last season) and Chris Paul (175 pounds, 69 games a year including just 45 last year) and you have a guy who has simply sustained himself better. Freak injuries happen all the time, but I'll take a guy who's 20-25 pounds heavier and can avoid the dings and dents that force smaller players to miss a game here and a game there especially considering, while a level below Paul and Parker, Felton still is among the quickest PGs in the game.
Listen, I'm not going to make the argument that Felton is going to have MVP caliber seasons like Paul has had in recent years (when healthy) but I also think it's asinine to consider Paul anywhere near a necessity without seeing what we have in Felton. Who knows, maybe his short contract will be a steal and he'll be a leader for us while helping along Toney Douglas. Maybe he'll exceed D'Antoni's expectations and put himself in line for an extension. Either way, I just don't see the point in trashing the flexibility and young talent we have left for another point guard when - if anything - we'd benefit most from grabbing a swing man through trade of free agency. Maybe the Carmelo Anthony dream does come true either before the trade deadline or next July - losing Curry's (and potentially Chandler, Azubuike, and/or Turiaf's) contract gives us the possibility. Maybe that falls through and we give a shorter, cheaper contract to Caron Butler and bring in another role player. That's not a "dream" fall back plan, but it'd make us better and it'd certainly be better than getting stuck with a lame duck Okafor contract. I just know that I'm excited by the moves D'Antoni and Walsh have made this summer - giving us hope and talented youth for the first time in years - and I think Raymond Felton is worth defending.
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Comments
This.
rec’d.
Been saying all along, if you just look at what Felton did in Charlotte…its pretty foolish to dismiss it and say that’s what he’s gonna be in NY.
First off, even if he’s the same exact player as he was in Charlotte, that’s teh best PG the Knicks have had in a long time, mainly cuz he’s a PG…not a dude trying to get 20pts a night like Steph.
But he WILL get better. Chris Duhon and Lee were an excellent P&R combo, so Pringles can and will make Felton and Amare into a lethal combo, simply cuz Felton has actual speed and a pair of balls, so he’s not gonna care about making a layup.
Go New York Go!
agreed It is pretty much known that
Felton plays his best basketball in an uptempo style. This guy absolutely fits D’Antoni’s offense, and while I think it is going to be unfair to compare him to Nash, I believe he is going to do an extremely effective job.
by Robert Currence on Jul 26, 2010 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions
Felton should Improve as a Pure Point Guard
I think D’Antoni can teach Felton the correct style to play within the offense very effectively, especially with Amare there…..
And D’Antoni has the advantage of using Felton’s size and strength which Nash didn’t have.
If I can make it there, I'll make it anywhere...It's up to you, New York, New York!!!!
Yeah
If you can play for Larry Brown, you can follow instruction. If he can follow whatever guidelines D’Antoni lays out for him, there’s not a doubt in my head he’ll grow as a distributor and more fully utilize whatever other skills the coaching staff sees as his strengths.
one way i've been thinking about this..
…is the difference between chris paul and raymond felton worth losing randolph/gallo/chandler/douglas/whoever?
i guess another way to put it would be adding a “in d’antoni’s sytem” clause to that question.
i don’t know what the answer is, but my instincts say no. i like to imagine that a good point guard with all of those quality passing targets can you nearly as far as a great point guard with half of those quality passing targets.
You are right Seth
The difference in upgrade is not really worth giving up all those players. Now if Donnie for somereason decides that those guys are not really in the future, then maybe you do it. But wouldn’t the benefit of having a Chris Paul be, how much better he would make a player like Gallo, or Randolph?
by Robert Currence on Jul 26, 2010 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions
yea man
if you can keep gallo, randolph and amare, don’t hesitate, just get it done. but if you toss everybody out of the bus just to get a driver, you gotta go make all the stops on the route again. granted, it would be a different neighborhood. but still. nah man, that don’t make sense. let’s just take these bitches to school.
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by stingy d on Jul 26, 2010 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
agreed.
with all this CP3 stuff of “trade everyone for him, he’s a great player!!”..I can see just like Vortex says, Felton becoming a top 10 PG in Pringles system first of all, and then you have guys like Gallo, AR and TD (all of which most likely go to NO) to help him out.
Will they contend this year? Probably not. Will they contend with CP3 this year? Also, no. They may be a 4 seed instead of a 6 seed…but who cares.
Now, next year…they’ll still maintain cap flexibility. Gallo, AR, TD and Chan are all better, hopefully, with another year of experience. Felton’s hopefully become that top 10 PG in Pringles system.
And then you got plenty of room to adjust accordingly and re-tool in the offseason. Maybe that’s Carmelo, maybe someone else is out there..who knows.
Go New York Go!
by FreeBradshaw on Jul 25, 2010 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions
the pringles regimen
brings with it, the pringles tutelage. everyone acts like all you do is play for mike d’antoni’s play-calling. this coach, also, very obviously teaches players how to excel.
i mean…. fuck you guys if you jared jeffries was not one of our best players last year. you think it was just some type of abberation for him? NO! d’antoni helped jared progress as a player! and at the same time, the knicks style of play completely changed (mid season mind you).
yo man, we got a lot of depth and talent and prospects for the future. last year at this time, it was like, yo wilson chandler is gonna start, there’s no doubt about it, and we have absolutely no one that we want to see coming off the bench. now we’ll be foaming at the mouth waiting for wilson to catch wreck on second units.
i gotta stop running my typing mouth, but the team has drastically improved, top to bottom. and the only question marks are at the end of the bench, anthony randolph, and azabuike’s injury. we’re currently stacked, and poised to strike again. i couldn’t be happier!
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by stingy d on Jul 26, 2010 12:18 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
and NO!!!!!!
lebron james as a knick would not make me a happier!!!! it would make me feel slimy.
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by stingy d on Jul 26, 2010 12:20 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
its funny how these non-Knicks fans
yap about David Lee being better then Amare….Lee was the best he ever was last year, and that’s cuz of Pringles.
If you have talent, Pringles will make you better.
Go New York Go!
by FreeBradshaw on Jul 26, 2010 6:32 AM EDT up reply actions
What it is
is that if there is a way for a player to succeed on the court, no matter how unconventional, D’antoni will find it. He doesn’t think in terms of 1,2,3,4,5 and what those positions are supposed to do. He just looks at players and tries to find a way to have them mesh on the court. Hence, certain guys that don’t fit the traditional mold will flourish under him. I think he tried and tried and tried to find a role for Nate that would work and he couldn’t quite do it and I don’t think anyone else will either.
But if there’s one coach that can find a way to utilize AR, it’s D’antoni.
alternately
when he put nate out there, he got the absolute most out of him. same with jeffries, same with chris duhon for christsake! he adapts, and he works tirelessly, and if you can’t help yourself, whats the use? might as well try something else.
as much as i hated duhon, you had to believe that he was going to stop shooting sooooo soooo soooooooooo poorly at some point.
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this was essentially my fanpost "Say No To Bad Contracts!"
in far fewer words
"Why does green mean that's the color green? Why can't you say another word for green being green? Know what i'm saying?" - Stephon
"Anyway, you should check out the movie "Black and White," which actually stars Allan Houston. It’s not a comedy, but rather a really serious and emotional movie." - Wilson Chandler
by ny knickerbocker on Jul 27, 2010 3:01 AM EDT up reply actions
Funny I was just talking about this with my father.
Ok Paul is gonna average 6 more points and 2 more assist then Felton… Is that worth giving away our flexibility for? Not to mention having Okafor’s contract. I think I might make a thread of this.
"As humans we strive for success but live with fear. If success was inevitable, fear cannot exist" Michael Kelley
by MikeTheIntern on Jul 25, 2010 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Then again
He covers all the points to that argument so I dont have to :P
"As humans we strive for success but live with fear. If success was inevitable, fear cannot exist" Michael Kelley
by MikeTheIntern on Jul 25, 2010 10:46 PM EDT up reply actions
exactly
both Vortex and you are right…and that is why DW WONT do this deal(right now)
In almost every interview DW has mentioned get under the cap, flexibility…flexibility…FLEXIBILTY. Theres no way he compromises all that work hes done to create that fleixiblity. Not just FLEXIBILITY for this year..but next year, and the year aftrer that as well. No way he throws that all away and puts us with 1 or two bad contracts in okafor and posey. My gut guarantees it. And with what Walsh had done so far.. proving that he is and will stay within his plans of getting under the cap(done) and now getting better with cap friendly moves (done).
He said in a previous vid interview that he is ok with what he have now. That doesnt mean he is done makin moves, but it means he doesnt feel the need to jump the gun and ship out young talent and flexible contracts for 1 star player.
Toney does what the douglas do. And no one can do what he does b/c doing it without being Toney Douglas just doesnt make it do what it do
I'd lose Randolph/Chandler/Douglas... Not Gallo.
To upgrade from Felton to Paul…
Remember…. The way the NBA is heading…. Teams will need a superstar to recruit another superstar to build a CHAMPIONSHIP DYNASTY!
Having Paul and Amare and Gallo on the same roster I think would entice Carmelo to come to NY….. I don’t think Felton and Amare is as attractive to someone of Melo’s caliber…
I don’t mean to specify Melo as the only reason the Knicks would exchange Felton for Paul… But for any star of Melo’s calliber.
If I can make it there, I'll make it anywhere...It's up to you, New York, New York!!!!
Names of guys that "sound" appealing
is for media use only. It doesnt have to sound good for it to be good. Although i agree in what you would give for paul. (just AR chandler and TD)
But what teams has went the route you say is the direction the NBA is going and the only way to build a dynasty? Boston won once…Miami? nothing proved.
The lakers have a very strong core and consistantly make good team decisions. They just dont go running for the next start FA. They jsut picked up matt barnes. Great defender. no way near star potential. But fills a ROLE, and fills it well.
If we continue to build a team then we will steadily become better on the court. Walsh had us in the position to choose either ways of rebuilding. Since Lebitch chose Mia, we go with the route of where we are now. 1 star and a conglomerate of young talent. Melo is indeed on the table if he doesnt sign..but moves made now are moves for the team, not for melo. That time will come when its in front of us.
Toney does what the douglas do. And no one can do what he does b/c doing it without being Toney Douglas just doesnt make it do what it do
Mr. Williams
You wouldn’t happen to be my high school home-ec teacher would you?
In all seriousness, I disagree with your assertion that Paul gives the Knicks a better shot at Carmelo Anthony. For one, how would they pay him? Is Carmello going to be licking his chops at a 10M paycut? I don’t think so.
Critics will look down on the Amar’e deal because of the perceived lack of difference in talent between him and Lee. Not only do I thnk that’s ridiculous (Amar’e is one of, if not the most explosive finishers in the game and is a protoype D’Antoni big man) but you pay that extra 20M to do exactly what you want Paul to do – attract another star like Anthony. You know what the most exciting moment of the past month has been for me? Not Amar’e signing. Not the decision (I personally dislike LeBron and was nervous about the possibility of roothing for him). It was media day where Felton, Randolph, Turiaf, and Azubuike were introduced. I liked the fact that they all talked about complimenting the team’s new leader, Amar’e. I liked how Turiaf talked about doing the grind work in the paint to free up Amar’e. I liked how Randolph talked about his versatiliy and learning under STAT. I like how Azubuike prided himself on his defense and how Felton was excited about returning to a system he’s familiar from high school and picking and rolling with the talented big men on the team. You want to sacrifice those kinds of role players for another star? I don’t buy it.
I think our best scenario in getting ‘Melo is to try and do what the Bulls did to try to pry LeBron away earlier this month (something he would have done if he was smart.) They have a wealth of young talent (Rose, Deng, Noah) and brought in a dynamic star big man (Boozer) and said "LeBron, we’re you signing on the dotted line away from a well-balanced, young dynasty. That’s what you do for ‘Melo. You work this team into the playoffs and say to ’Melo "Look at us. Look at the strides players like Felton, Gallinari, and Randolph took. Look at our role players like Turiaf, Azubuike, and Douglas. If you sign on the dotted line, this play-off quality team instantly becomes Miami’s harshest competition in the East." And you hope for the best.
by Vortex7 on Jul 26, 2010 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
This is....
The route I would take. Show him he is the missing link with our play. If we get into the playoffs and make even a bit of noise, the Knicks suddenly look VERY attractive to a Melo. No other Eastern conference contenders could sign him outright without losing their core. But we could easily, without losing Gallo, Amare, Felton or Randolph.
by JerzeeBalla on Jul 26, 2010 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
but, hey vortex
good write-up here. and i don’t know who the denver broncos are, but it sounds like they are a football team from colorado that has a quarterback who was supposed to suck.
i would have to say, that part of the system making the player, relies on the mentality of the players, individually and collectively. the sum can be greater than its parts or some type of smart shit.
we’ve been spinning our wheels in mud for years, and finally guys are going to be playing to stick around, instead of sticking around to get left out in the cold. we are embarking on a new era, with confident and vocal leaders, strength of character, and monster basketball talent.
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by stingy d on Jul 26, 2010 12:27 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Chris Childs, really?
i always pictured DWTDD being the second coming of Charlie Ward… i mean they both went to the same school… but we do have an awesome PG duo in Felton/Douglass. might as well be Charlie Ward and Chris Child manning the 1. lol
child i say.
Charlie ward was more the passer than childs. ALthough douglas is quick like ward was and can shoot the 3… he defense is closer to childs than his pg skills are of wards
Toney does what the douglas do. And no one can do what he does b/c doing it without being Toney Douglas just doesnt make it do what it do
Did somebody call for me?
"you're the Rod Thorn in my Chris Bosh side."
by Chris Child's Fist on Jul 26, 2010 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Paul's a great player
and it’s usually worth it to trade 3 good players for one great one. And, yes, you need at least one and probably 2 and possibly 3 great players to contend for a championship.
But I tend to see it another way. You need at least one great player at the 1/2 or 3 and one great big man. After that you need a team culture of defense and the rest of your guys have to have complementary skills. If you have a great small forward, your point guard doesn’t have to be the best in the league – he has to be able to lead, pass, shoot and defend. Felton can do that stuff and Douglas is an excellent backup option.
Also – to adjust your team and contend for many years, you need to avoid having bad contracts for mediocre guys. That stuff is poison. Right now the Knicks have good balance, one great big man, another guy in AR who could be great, Gallo, who also shows signs of being great, and a point guard who is very good on both ends. They have good complementary bigs and seem to have a majority of guys that care about defense, which could give them that ever-valuable defensive mindset as a team.
If you trade a bunch of guys for Paul, you may end up taking Okafor’s contract, and Okafor’s OK, but he’s not as good as his contract and most teams would rather have Randolph than him any day, right? So if they give up some balance and depth to improve from Felton to Paul here, how can they get that depth and balance back if they fuck up their flexibility to do it?
I say wait. Someone else like Orlando or Portland may swoop in and get him, but it’s worth the risk. No matter where/if he goes, we’re still in position to sign him when he hits free agency. Yes, he’s awesome, yes he could put you over the top, yes he’s almost certainly an improvement over Felton. But Walsh has got to bide his time here and make this deals that fit and keep us flexible.
couldn't agree more
we’ve got to put these guys on the court together, and see what we truly need before we just rip the team to shreds. teams with depth tend to outshine teams with one or two really talented guys.
perfect team to consider would be the grizzlies. they sucked anally with just rudy gay and oj mayo, but then they got z-bo and marc gasol turned into a player, and suddenly they were really pushing teams, and made a little playoff push. and it became obvious that the place they were weakest was the point.
if we turn out to really depserately need a point guard, we will have the chance to chase down someone. and look, the lakers have won numerous championships with derek fisher. that dude is shit otuside of the triangle offense.
we gotta stop drooling when we see shiny objects.
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+1000000
Seeing Gallo hoist that trophy would be way more satisfying than watching Chris Paul hoist it.
I think that’s what it comes down to for me.
This is why cap flexibility trumps all. Like was said in the thread, when you add and subtract players, you aren’t adding as much as you think you are when those players are valuable contributors. When there’s already a serviceable and possibly very good player at the position being replaced (Felton), it’s that much more minimized. When you get a guy on the free agent market, you are purely adding.
If they’re going to get one of Paul or Melo, let them come here via free agency or at the deadline when their value will be much lower.
very well done
Raymond Felton is going to spin some heads this year.
awesome. just one thing:
and a few more possessions a game Felton can seriously improve upon those stats and will able to score and dish and swish with some of the best of them.
/fixed
I am a fan of both the mets and knicks... so just kill me now.
My problem with Felton is how he got destroyed by Nelson in the first round.
What’s up with that defense?
Felton had no support....
Stephen Jackson is a poor wingman for support….
Felton has Amare now to dish the ball off to…
I think Amare is a huge upgrade from Jackson…. Let’s wait and see what Felton does with some real superstar talent before we write-off Felton’s point guard abilities.
If I can make it there, I'll make it anywhere...It's up to you, New York, New York!!!!
i definitely did not watch the magic vs the bobcats
there were interesting games to watch at that point in the playoffs.
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Yea, I saw that
But I’d still say that’s more the exception than the norm. You can count on one hand the players in the league who are on top of their game defensively game in and game out. Watching him extensively in college, on several occasions in Charlotte, and reading up on him – there’s no reason not to consider him a plus defender. And let’s not forget that Nelson is a very good player. Not a tremendous player, a guy who I actually think Felton can be better than someday under D’Antoni – but it isn’t like he got torched by Chris Duhon.
Again, I don’t think he’s a finished product yet – but he’s already the best PG we’ve had in years. Now it’s just a matter of he and Douglas developing under D’Antoni for us to have a very strong PG duo.
didnt see that game either
but shyt… nelson practically did it all to help the chances of the magic coming back against the celtics
Toney does what the douglas do. And no one can do what he does b/c doing it without being Toney Douglas just doesnt make it do what it do
nelson is a big game player
He reminds me of a guy like fisher.
I am a fan of both the mets and knicks... so just kill me now.
I was saying similar things about Channing Frye when he came to the Suns
Some Suns fans were disregarding Frye as a 5-8 ppg scorer. But I was saying that he will thrive in the Suns system as a jumpshooting C.
and so, he went on to thrive in the Suns fast-paced system. 11 ppg, great percentages, and big shots. He was the Suns best offseason acquisition in years. It was easy to see. He was a perfect fit.
Now..Felton..I can’t say he is the perfect fit for this system. Amar’e Stoudemire is the best pick and roll big man in the league, and Felton has not shown that he is an elite pick and roll PG, which does not change based on the pace that the team plays at.
But still, to expect Felton to only be the same player that he was in Charlotte is absolutely silly. Felton, if everything goes as planned, will be able to put up 14 and 9 with ease this season, and that’s without big improvements on the pick and roll game. – If he works on his PnR game enough, he can be looking at 16 and 9 — some of the best PG stats in the league.
I don't know where to find the numbers
but I doubt that the Bobcats were really running the P&R a lot, or at least as much as a team like the Knicks. IF you don’t run the P&R…how are you gonna be elite? It doesn’t have much to do with pace, yea, but it also has everything to do with whether you actually run it. Demon coach in Charlotte…I don’t remember him running all that much P&R.
Chris Duhon….was one of the “elite” P&R PG’s in the NBA last year. I doubt he did much of that at Duke or even Chicago for that matter, so it seems to me that Pringles can teach the P&R if the PG has the patience and skillset to learn it.
If Chris Duhon can do what he did last year….Ray Felton can be near the top of P&R G’s in the NBA, just like Duhon. Felton’s a better ball handler, shooter and actually would try and take the ball to the rack and actually score, instead of whatever the hell Duhon did.
Go New York Go!
by FreeBradshaw on Jul 29, 2010 6:40 AM EDT up reply actions















