Is Wilson Chandler Wearing Down by Quarter?
by gian casimiro on Jan 19, 2011 10:00 AM EST
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I'm an MMA fan. A lot of people still don't "get" the sport and consider it barbaric. I'm sure I don't fully "get it" either, but that one UFC event each month is fun times. I enjoy seeing the different fighting styles. And I don't consider it barbaric cause the refs generally stop fights at the right time. But really, what I appreciate most is a fighter's conditioning. It takes an absurd training routine to go flat out for five minutes at a time. Just ask Sean Sherk. But even then, some fighters are spent after one round cause they find an opening and unload too quickly, only to tire themselves out.
Apply that to basketball. It's not unlike the Knicks' strategy. Wear the opponent out. Make them expend their energy running with this team. They may take some punches early, but they're still swinging in the final round. Or something like that.
There was a fantastic piece written by Loren Lee Chen and Aaron Fischman for SLAM the other day on Blake Griffin's inability to sustain scoring production throughout the course of a game. They found that Griffin scores a bunch in the first quarter and sharply drops off afterward, arguing that his style of play - the obscene aggressiveness and energy exerted ruining psyches via aerial assault - depletes him of his resources as games progress. Enlightening for sure and sound on logic.
Brimming with curiosity, I looked at how individual Knicks scored by quarter to find trends, if any. One is an interesting nugget.
Here are the primary contributors to point total by quarter: Amar'e Stoudemire, Raymond Felton, Wilson Chandler and Danilo Gallinari.
Nothing you haven't already come to expect. Stoudemire leads the league in fourth quarter points. We've seen him carry the offense on his back to close out or get back into games. It's both unsettling and inspiring. As a result, or out of necessity, the other top contributors all hit their floors in terms of scoring in the final frame. Of course, this doesn't take into account rotations and minutes played so here's a look at points per minute.
There are some obvious changes when viewed per minute. We see Amar'e Stoudemizing at fourth quarter levels in Q2. Second-unit opposition perhaps? Maybe he just likes even numbers. That'd be odd considering he wears #1. We also see how eerily similar Felton and Gallo perform throughout the game. Notice Wilson Chandler's output, however. He's scoring slightly better at the start of games than at the end of games both in raw totals and per minute.
A subtle but steady decline. It's one I wouldn't have expected, but it brings to mind the Laker game where Wil erupted in the first only to taper off by the end. Apparently it happens more often than I remember. What's the issue?
One problem is his three point shooting. It has a direct effect on his points scored per minute. He starts off games shooting 40% from that distance and ends shooting 28.9%. From great outside threat to awful shooter. Is it poor shot selection late in games or is he wearing himself out like Griffin?
Chandler's probably the second most athletic player on the team. We know he can throw down some vicious offerings. We also see him run expertly on the break. But how much is the pace affecting him late in games? Is the dip in three point percentage a sign of fatigue? Perhaps his legs aren't with him on those late game shots. Let's also remember that Chandler plays the four when the team's at full strength. He fights for position with much larger players on defense and teams aren't exactly shy of exploiting the mismatch. That has to affect his lift by the end, probably more so than the pace.
That said, we know small ball is the team's most effective lineup and benefits everyone on the offensive end - Amar'e, the team, and Chandler himself. And there's nothing wrong with Amar'e being the primary scorer in the final frame. It's part of what makes him a superstar.
If it is indeed an issue with fatigue, Shawne Williams and Bill Walker have earned some extra minutes even with Gallo coming back. Maybe more rest is available for Wil with their emergence.
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Yes The Team Is Tired
Coach D’Antoni is at fault for not balancing the team. He needs as said many times make a balance with the second unit to contribute. This will help keeping our guys fresh to close out the game.
We have to make do with what we have and that means D’Antoni stepping up and making the changes that are so obivious for the better of the team. Not putting people in the dog house and giving other players a pass because of his like for them. This creates a moral problem and it is showing.
Second unit should be as said many times to save this season:
PF/Gallinari-Randolph C/Mozgov SF/Williams SG/Walker-Mason PG/Douglas
Legs get heavy for all players when they play to many minutes. By having Gallinari and Williams playing in the second unit we will be fresh to close out games.
team is tired
can’t wait for them to relax during the all star break, i really dont want anyone ‘sides for Amar’e to participate.
Ray realllly needs the time to chill
Yeah at first I wanted him to be an All-Star
But right now he needs to really just chill
why cant we be a halfcourt offense
we can do the same thing orlando does…… work amar’e inside have 4 on the perimeter …… we wont wear out and we can still keep shooting even though we could be better than that
by SLAUGHTERHOUSE on Jan 19, 2011 10:53 AM EST reply actions
That probably wouldn't work
with D’Antoni running the show. I think the whole point of SSOL is to maximize the advantages that we do have over other teams, so pure cardiovascular endurance and, in D’Antoni’s perfect world, 2-3 great shooters, and try to win that way. Basically, we try to run the opponent off the court. There’s no way we would be a playoff team if we played only half-court sets. It’s the pace of our team, and our ability to utilize it, that makes us a good team. It’s also the reason why some call D’Antoni a “gimmicky” coach.
I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is that moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle - victorious.
Vince Lombardi
to be honest there is no way to win a title if we run all day
who was the last running team to win a championship….. ill wait
by SLAUGHTERHOUSE on Jan 19, 2011 11:12 AM EST up reply actions
The whole
“show me the titles” argument is pretty stupid imo. Not a knock on you, but I see a lot of people using it. People only look at trophy winners, but it’s a lot more frequent to hear that this or that team was better but didn’t win that year. Phoenix was a really good team in D’Antoni’s hey-day, but they got screwed over by the refs. Would they have won if they reached the finals that year? We have no way of knowing, but I’ll take a team that has a chance at a title every year to the best team in the NBA for one year. It’s nice to wish for the best team, but all that’s really needed is a top 4 or 6 or w/e team that matches up well in the playoffs.
I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is that moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle - victorious.
Vince Lombardi
by moose35 on Jan 19, 2011 11:31 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
i remember the year u were talking about
but they also had the mvp that year in steve nash along with stoudemire having one of the best years of his career…… also had marion who is a hell of a defensive player along with raja bell nd boris diaw who are pretty good on defense at the time……..they could run all day because they knew they had the players to recover and lock someone down…… if we want to run we need to switch to a zone based defense, force them to take 3 pointers and long 2’s and in doing that we will have a great miami heat type of fastbreak offense but if we stay man to man we cant properly get into the fastbreak
by SLAUGHTERHOUSE on Jan 19, 2011 12:35 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
good call i was thinking about zone defense too
by cheers from manhattan on Jan 19, 2011 12:39 PM EST up reply actions
Watch how the lakers beat the Suns last year in the playoffs....
They played zone with Amare as the dominant big man….
they even had Lopez at center…
If I can make it there, I'll make it anywhere...It's up to you, New York, New York!!!!
Zone defense could work
But you gotta have long guys at the top. I think guys like Felton and Fields don’t work well with a 2-3 zone because while they’re decent defenders, they’re not very long. I don’t know, just a theory.
Looking back at those Suns years with D’Antoni, they proved you can be a championship contender with this style, but you really gotta have the premium type guys. And those guys gave a shit about defense too, it was just overshadowed by their offense. I’m not saying our team doesn’t care, but we’re not even at league average like those Suns teams were
good point on zone
its surprising that suns team didnt win a chip, basketball gods can be cruel. every chance ny had to win a chip with ewing, something always came up. so i sympathize.
by cheers from manhattan on Jan 19, 2011 4:04 PM EST up reply actions
No, you're right, if we slow it down we're a shoe-in for a ring this year for sure
Stupid D’Antoni! Must we do all the genius-ing ourselves??
flossy would have taken those Phoenix teams to the Championship trophy, and beyond
Nash would have like 3 yachting titles by now and Marion and Amare could have been defending champions on Dancing with the Stars by now. Antoni. No “D” for Dancing.
Damn straight
Instead we’re stuck with this clown and his damn mustache! Indignities never cease.
Well
There may be some correlation between Amar’e dominating and everybody else in the starting 5 (didn’t see Landry, but that’d be interesting to graph) regressing. Maybe we’re feeding Amar’e the ball too much in the 4th? I don’t watch every game because of time-zone difference, so I can’t say definitely, but I think Amare’s efficiency drops in the 4th if we do, in fact, have a gameplan that gives Amar’e the ball as the primary and almost only scoring option. He is a monster in the 4th, but he probably takes away from Chandler and co. points. Does anybody know his efficiency in the 4th vs other Q’s?
I do MMA by the way, and I’m getting the feeling that it’s getting more appreciated, especially outside the US, where it never was unpopular in the 1st place. It looks barbaric if you don’t know anything about the sport (ie John McCain: “MMA is like cockfighting and should be banned”). It’s a combination of a plethora of fighting styles, and nobody can ever claim to be a complete master of the sport, there’s always something to improve on. What you said is true though, I always try to know an opponent out in the 1st round and am completely screwed in the later rounds, where I got most of my broken noses because I was too tired to see the punches coming.
Great write-up as always Gian, keep ’em coming!
I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is that moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle - victorious.
Vince Lombardi
rec'd. wilson chandler is the GSP of the knicks.
Apply that to basketball. It’s not unlike the Knicks’ strategy. Wear the opponent out. Make them expend their energy running with this team. They may take some punches early, but they’re still swinging in the final round.
thats the strategy but the minutes management is so bad ny ends up punching itself out.
But how much is the pace affecting him late in games? Is the dip in three point percentage a sign of fatigue?
you definitely asking the right questions in relation to wil. i remember doing the knicks eight win run i was calling mda out on his minutes management. it looked unsustainable. then the celtics game happened and i saw doc playing a game of chess with the minutes management and mda not.
by cheers from manhattan on Jan 19, 2011 11:15 AM EST reply actions
I think its playing the four on D more than the running
Wil never fails to get back on D or get out on the break, even in the fourth quarter. But banging on bigs wears on your shoulders… particularly when you’re giving up 30 lbs every night. That’s why so many big men are poor foul shooters. You can’t push on a 270 lb. man for 15 minutes and click on a smooth stroke for a foul shot when its finally called. So imagine Tim Duncan leaning on Wil’s shooting arm for three quarters and then having to shoot three pointers in the last five minutes of the game. I’m surprised he makes as many as he does. Will can chase a small forward all night and still score, but playing pf is always going to limit him late in games… that and throwing the ball in to STAT 3 out of 4 plays.
by Hawthorne Nathaniel Wingo on Jan 19, 2011 11:19 AM EST reply actions 2 recs
rec'd. o man nice observation.
when i post on opposing team gamethreads.. i often mention taking advantage of mismatches as one of the opposing team’s best chances of winning. your point and gian point compliment each other.
by cheers from manhattan on Jan 19, 2011 11:51 AM EST up reply actions
could other teams focusing on Wil also be a reason?
I would put money on teams focusing 80% of their energy on our stars (STAT and Felton) to start the game, but when Wil comes out and scores 12 to start the game maybe the D focuses on him a little more?
I would be interested to see if the drop off is the same for when he scores a lot of 1st quarter points compared to when he comes out of the gate a little less prolific. ie: when he scores 4 points in the first quarter, does his production remain steady all game?
I am a fan of both the mets and knicks... so just kill me now.
i dont see any kill wil defense strategy by the opposing team.
clog the middle to stuff the pnr, clean the glass, take advantage of missmatches. thats what i see opposing team do ftw. i’ve nicknamed it the trinity.
by cheers from manhattan on Jan 19, 2011 12:19 PM EST up reply actions
I agree. Might just be a combo of amare taking over and defensive adjustments.
by Crackback on Jan 19, 2011 12:47 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Could be
I was surprised to see Felton’s numbers drop in the 4th quarter, because I feel like he’s a pretty clutch scorer and usually will take some one-on-one plays and hit some jumpers late in the game. Gallo also has moments of scoring late in the game. I don’t think it’s Chandler really regressing, so to speak, just other guys stepping up. Mainly, Stat
"chandler really regressing, so to speak, just other guys stepping up. Mainly, Stat"
if ny could perfect the game where wil punishes teams for doubling stat, that would be awsome. i dont mean kick it out to wil for a 3, but rather a bounce pass to wil running in for a high percentage basket.
by cheers from manhattan on Jan 19, 2011 4:01 PM EST up reply actions
Might wanna change the analogy
Sherk was suspended for roids :P
Donnie's bout to beat the NBA game like he got a cheat code
Wilson Chandler is not even among the top 50 players in the league in minutes played
If he is wearing down it is not any more so than other players playing comparable minutes. Secondly D’Antoni is famous for his light practices. Chandler is actually averaging the same minutes this year as last year and he is far healthier this year than last year. Now if you are telling me that a 23 yr old player who is in good shape cannot handle playing 35 minutes a night, then I say you are being ridiculous. That we are even talking about the Knicks being worn down is a sign of how far we have come, no one ever seems to worry about whether bad teams are tired. Being tired and learning to deal with it is part of the process of learning how to be a good team. Good teams have to play through fatigue and still win games. Bad teams can use, “we just don’t have any legs as an excuse.” You don’t think the Lakers are tired, or the heat, or the Spurs? Come on people.
by Robert Curre on Jan 19, 2011 12:32 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
i think the point above by Hawthorne
about guarding bigger guys all game has to have some merit.
I am a fan of both the mets and knicks... so just kill me now.
I think Hawthorne actually had a pretty insightful point with that. But that then changes the focus to his role, not minutes played.
He’s also seemed to regress juuust a little in his shot selection. Almost like he read too many articles after his awesome game against SA. Wilson will be fine. I always thought he could ball, hated that he kept having to deal with those nagging injuries during the season and surgeries over the summer, and am delighted he’s shown this year what kind of player he could be. He still has room to grow, too, so on the list of concerns I have for this team, he’s pretty far down the list.
I <3 you Wilson. Those are not nuts.
Not saying it does but by how much
Wilson goes 6’8" and if you are willing to believe Alan Hahn about 240lbs. It is not like he is playing intense low post defense every night against guys who out weigh him by 25-30 lbs. The majority of Power Forwards in the league these days are face up jump shooters. It would be one thing if he were guarding Karl Malone, Austin Carr, Rick mahorn, and Charles Barkley, Kevin Willis etc every night. and Hell He is at least the same damn size as Dennis Rodman and Rodman guarded those guys and was none the worse for wear physically because of it. Most of the bigger guys Chandler goes up against are finesse players. Bosh, Garnett, LaMarcus Aldridge for example are all primarily jump shooters.
by Robert Curre on Jan 19, 2011 1:25 PM EST up reply actions
I'm with you to an extent, but it's hard to deny the grind of exerting yourself to shoot over those longer guys you mentioned while also chasing them through screens and bodying up on them himself.
I don’t know about Bosh, because he’s a goddamn Virginia, but Garnett and LMA, Love, and other big bodies at the 4 he has to contend with daily have to take their toll.
Rodman shouldn’t be used as a control in examples like this, either. The dude was a physical FREAK. One of the most under-rated athletic NBA players I’ve ever seen. Seriously. He was a freak in every way.
I see your point but...
…when Rodman moved from small forward to power forward, he stopped shooting three pointers and focused on rebounding and defense. I think Wil ca Which goes back to my point. Its had to do both.
Bosh, Garnett, and Aldridge are midrange shooters who tend to go to the basket more at the end of games, just like Boozer and Duncan. I believe Wil would excel at PF in a traditional system where the majority of his game was 18 feet and in. But having him be a power forward/wing that shoots threes at the end of games is asking alot. Magic was 6’9" and 240 early in his career, but he never guarded PFs because it would have thrown off his offensive game.
Wil is currently my favorite Knick (but I’ve got a man-crush on Moz too). He’s gonna be a tier 2 star for years, but not in this system unless he gets to guard the SF.
by Hawthorne Nathaniel Wingo on Jan 19, 2011 1:46 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
co-sign (a tier 2 star for years sounds just about right to me too)
i’d prefer wil playing small forward. but if he is going to play pf then let him be a paul millsap. you dont see millsap launching threes like crazy to be effective. he plays closer to the basket call it traditional, call it wingo, but it works.. utah won two out of their last three games. and it is not like the jazz are not a running team, they will run all four quarters.
by cheers from manhattan on Jan 19, 2011 2:33 PM EST up reply actions
Chandler's midrange game is nasty
He really shouldn’t shoot more than 3 3-pointers a game. The rest should come in fast breaks, drives, and midrange pull-ups.
However, Milsap and Chandler can’t really be compared. Milsap isn’t as athletic and he’s a little more of a banger at the PF. That is his natural position
true about millsap
i love wil’s inside the arc game too, i like to see that more often especially to punish double teams on stat. those higher percentage baskets wil will feast on.
by cheers from manhattan on Jan 19, 2011 4:34 PM EST up reply actions
Magic never guarded PF's because his laker teams were usually pretty stacked
at PF. One year they had Rambis, Green, Worthy, Maurice Lucas, and Bob McCadoo all taking turns down there. I am sure if Magic needed to tho, he could have gone to the PF spot and excelled. But then again he was one of the most skilled and complete players to ever play the game. My point is the guy is young and in good shape, and is not having to go against big bangers every night. He is basically the same size as Josh Smith and smith gets it done. Charles Barkely played 17 years in the league at PF, and he was only 6’3 (according to Sir Charles himself) and once Billy Cunningham made him get his ass in shape weighed 250 lbs. Barkley went up against a bigger guy every night and was one of the greatest power forwards ever to play the game. I am sure he got worn down, I am sure he even was banged up. But Barkley was able to play through it and that is my point. This is a test for Chandler. Is he going to become a good player or an ok role player. If he wants to be the former then he has to learn how to produce when he is tired and banged up.
by Robert Curre on Jan 19, 2011 2:36 PM EST up reply actions
And not one player you named...
…had shooting three-pointers at the end of the game as a requirement of playing PF… which was my point.
And when Magic made his comeback, he played PF.
When I get in the game... win or lose... you know it's pretty much over.
by Hawthorne Nathaniel Wingo on Jan 19, 2011 2:43 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
When Magic made his comeback he was bigger than Warren Sapp.
And it lasted 32 games. He was gonna either be a PF or C just because his weight demanded it.
i think the overall answer is
and kinda always has been for Wil to shoot less 3’s
I am a fan of both the mets and knicks... so just kill me now.
Dude not trying to get into a back and forth,
But hell yeah Barkley was jacking up threes at the end of games, in fact sir Charles had developed into quite the 3 point shooter. And for the record it takes just as much out of you to Chase Ray Allen or Reggie Miller all over the damn Planet Like Wil had to do last yearm and John Starks had to do when he played here, then fight through screen set by 285lb Centers like Shaq or Andrew Bynum while trying to keep your ass infront of Lebron james and Kobe Bryant like he did last year, and still jack up your own 3 at the end of games as it does to defend Chris Bosh and Jack up a 3. So what is your point?
by Robert Curre on Jan 19, 2011 2:53 PM EST up reply actions
thats a sad fact then because his career 3P% was .266
“in fact sir Charles had developed into quite the 3 point shooter.”
by cheers from manhattan on Jan 19, 2011 3:00 PM EST up reply actions
But he had a knack for hitting them at the end of balls games and that is a fact
Stats do not tell you everything my young apprentice. You also need context. Barkley rose up and Knocked down many a 3 to tie or put his team a ahead, even after spending the previous 38 minutes wrestling with Karl Malone in the low post and under the boards.
by Robert Curre on Jan 19, 2011 3:03 PM EST up reply actions
I'm done after this, since the last point is not important to me...
But staying on point is
“And for the record it takes just as much out of you to Chase Ray Allen or Reggie Miller all over the damn Planet Like Wil had to do last year.”
This is a fact, but it has nothing to do with my point. My point was that Will is not winded at the end of games, although the quote above alludes to that being my point. My point was that when you push against other big bodies, your shoulders get tired. When your shoulders get tired you cannot effectively shoot threes. It just happens that most PF that ***effectively*** shoot 3-pointers have at some point had a rep for being “soft”, because they don’t bang inside. There are always exceptions like Kevin Love, but they are exceptions.
Jacking up threes at the end of the game “because” your tired like Barkley did is different from having to shoot them because it’s required. And I think that Will would agree that fighting through a screen from Boozer is less wear on his shoulders than guarding him down low.
So my original point remains. Guarding PF’s on defense for three quarters, and if I need to be specific, PF who don’t have a reputation for being soft, will tire your SHOULDERS lowering your shooting efficiency in the fourth quarter. If you’re going to address the point, please address the point and not examples.
When I get in the game... win or lose... you know it's pretty much over.
by Hawthorne Nathaniel Wingo on Jan 19, 2011 3:13 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Jacking up threes at the end of the game "because" your tired like Barkley did is different from having to shoot them because it’s required.wil can not not shoot a 3, its ssol requirement, all four quarters. it was not for charles. we ask a lot from wil and i dont mind that but when wil shows the wear lets understand where it stems from as wingo and gian effectively did.
by cheers from manhattan on Jan 19, 2011 3:23 PM EST up reply actions
SSOL is a book title not the name of the offense
And nowhere is it a requirement. What is a requirement is an open man take an open shot. If Chandler is open from 15 ft, D’Antoni is not gonna demand he back up to the 3 pt line or if he has an open lane for a drive or a dunk that he jack up a 3. That is the Spread pick and roll offense. Every motion based offense works to get the ball to an open man and that open man takes the shot. Geesh learn the offense your team plays!
by Robert Curre on Jan 19, 2011 3:29 PM EST up reply actions
Shooting 3s
when they are open and within the flow of the play should be taken. The main guts of SSOL is to find the open man, shoot the open shot in rhythm and dont sweat it. It doesnt mean pass the ball once and shoot the 3! It is based on not passing up good shots, because another good shot may not come.
Mike D makes plays that leave open the 3 ball. He believes that the extra point you get is a huge value (it is a whole 150% better then a 2 pointer) so you should put a lot of shooters on a team, and let them shoot open shots. This is what Donnie has been doing. Getting guys that can shoot. ExtraE has been pooping the corner like a sick baby because the plays Mike D draw up leave him open there.
Yet SSOL does not mean only shooting 3’s. The players rotate and a player that can on one play shoot a 3 and on another hit a backdoor cut and on another play slam down off a pick and roll is an optimal kind of player for Mike D.
The idea is to get open and get the ball in the hole.
Chandler, in my observation, tends to get 3 happy. Sometimes he shoots the ball, when it is not a great shot. This is the hardest thing for players to learn in the system. Toney is an example of a player that has not yet gotten it. Landry is an example of a player that completely gets it. Chandler is so good at getting to the rim, most of the time when he starts missing 3’s its because he is settling and not driving. Those are bad shots which are not part of SSOL or MDA or anything on any good teams.
At least that is my observation.
I am a fan of both the mets and knicks... so just kill me now.
True, but there is one problem
Chandler is not required to shoot 3’s but he is required to take open shots. Now Chandler averages 5 3’s a game ( I rounded up) now unless you are arguing that he is waiting until his shoulders are all banged up from guarding Carlos Boozer for 3 quarters to launch all 5 3’s in the 4th quarter, (while he seems to do just fine driving against Boozer and getting mid range shots the other 3 quarters) then you do not have a point. Just another person who does not have a clue of how the Knicks actually play offense but insists on being right. Wil’s production does not go down in the 4th quarter because he is taking a bunch of shots he is too sore to hit. And if he is jacking up 3’s in the 4th when he just scored 19 points taking Bosh Boozer or whoever off the dribble or in the mid post, then he is a damn fool and needs to be benched not so he can rest but because he is too stupid to have on the floor in the 4th quarter.
by Robert Curre on Jan 19, 2011 3:24 PM EST up reply actions
I'm sorry, but this needed a response.
Check the chart above. Wil’s 3 pt shooting percentage drops to ineffective in the 4th quarter. Spacing in this system requires him to start plays at the three point line (whatch the game tonight or go to Youtube). Before or after the PnR, Will generally catches the ball at the three point line. His shooting options are shoot the three, drive and pull up for the short jumper, or go to the basket. if he sees the ball going to the basket or the other side, he cheats closer to the basket on the weak side to be in short outlet position or to get to the basket for a rebound. Early in the game, he is a triple threat when he catches the ball from outside, which increases his effectiveness. At the end of the game his three point efficiency goes through the floor, which means he is only a double threat, and thus players can play off of him and wait for the drive. He still has to shoot threes to try to keep the other team from sagging on him, and because the offense requires spacing for Amare and Felton to remain effective on the PnR.
The stats show his threes go down, yet he still has enough energy to make back door cuts to the basket, and to run down players on fast breaks for the block. Are we imagining they are going down? No. And don’t think the other teams scouting reports don’t know this, and don’t tell the defender to give him the shot and cut off the drive in the fourth quarter. I understand this offense pretty well, and happen to be one of the few who like the system. But my background is as a defensive specialist and coach and I know how to set up a player for failure and/or capitalize on their weakest tendencies. Wil’s production does not go down because he is taking shots he cannot hit, his production goes down because the defense knows he is less of a threat to hit those shots so he becomes easier to defend.
When I get in the game... win or lose... you know it's pretty much over.
by Hawthorne Nathaniel Wingo on Jan 19, 2011 4:05 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
If there was a "Like" button, my friends on Facebook would know that I also am a fan of your posts.
One of the better new posters around here.
I'm a fan of you guys too...
i love this site. I’ve been a Knick fan for so long I actually cheered for Wingo back in the day.
When I get in the game... win or lose... you know it's pretty much over.
by Hawthorne Nathaniel Wingo on Jan 19, 2011 4:39 PM EST up reply actions
again my friend you did not ans the issue
How many three point shots does Chandler attempt in the fourth quarter? If he only attempts 5 a game and only two of those in the 4th yet he attempts 6 shots, then you do not have much of an argument. Secondly Chandler rarely starts an offensive set at the 3pt line as the spread pick and roll offense does not require 3 players to space the floor only 2. Chandler will often end up there in that you are correct but usually after his initial cut does not net him a touch. However the issue is not that Chandler takes too many 3’s in the 4th but that his point production dips. Since his TS% is not given we have no way of knowing if that is because of poorer shot selection (taking 3’s when you are too worn down to shoot them) is the culprit. There could be another legitimate reason Chandler’s point production dips in the 4th because he plays on the floor with Amar’e who is leading the league in 4th quarter scoring and shot attempts. Well if Amar’e is getting more touches and taking more shots in the 4th it would stand to reason that Chandler’s production would be down.
by Robert Currence on Jan 19, 2011 11:53 PM EST up reply actions
Hopefully you watched the game.
“Chandler rarely starts an offensive set at the 3pt line”
Proven wrong last night.
“If he only attempts 5 a game and only two of those in the 4th yet he attempts 6 shots, then you do not have much of an argument.”
Again off point. My point was that his inability to hit the three in the fourth is known so they defend his other options reducing his overall effectiveness/point production.
“Chandler will often end up there in that you are correct but usually after his initial cut does not net him a touch.”
Again proven wrong last night.
“However the issue is not that Chandler takes too many 3’s in the 4th but that his point production dips.”
You’re arguing my point like its yours. Again his overall production slips because he is easier to defend when the three doesn’t drop… as last night proved.
From today’s Newsday: “Danilo Gallinari (11 points) and Wilson Chandler totaled 21 points and shot a combined 8-for-24 from the field and 2- for-10 from three-point range. With no one drawing defenses away from the paint, it made it easy for the Rockets to mainly focus on Stoudemire.”
So your point that Wil is not “required” to shoot threes is again wrong.
“There could be another legitimate reason Chandler’s point production dips in the 4th because he plays on the floor with Amar’e who is leading the league in 4th quarter scoring and shot attempts.”
The last sentence of my initial post was:
“Will can chase a small forward all night and still score, but playing pf is always going to limit him late in games… that and throwing the ball in to STAT 3 out of 4 plays.”
So again you’re arguing my point like its your point.
Thank you for your time, and it was nice debating with you.
When I get in the game... win or lose... you know it's pretty much over.
by Hawthorne Nathaniel Wingo on Jan 20, 2011 9:39 AM EST up reply actions
this may sound homerish but who is the say the knicks arent pretty stacked?
gilbert arenas made a good point that every great team has a formidable second unit. if ny puts the full effort of his roster towards a win then wingo’s moz man-crush will go into overdrive. :)
This is a test for Chandler. Is he going to become a good player or an ok role player.
its a test for chandler, but gallo has to be babied, go figure. they’re both humans btw. i know wil is not much for showing his emotion, but you cant put weight on his shoulders but coddle gallo. both have to be used for what is best for the team win.
by cheers from manhattan on Jan 19, 2011 2:53 PM EST up reply actions
Look not to sound unsympathetic, I am sure Wilson is tired
But he has to suck it up. He wants to be a good player on a good team then he has got to learn how to produce even when he is tired. If reports are right and Chandler wants 12 mil from the Knicks or anybody else next year, then he better learn how to suck it up and play tired and or hurt because GM’s aren’t handing out 12mil paydays to players who can’t. That type of thing usually gets a GM fired and most of them want to keep their jobs.
you have argued against gallo at pf. but wil must suck it up and play pf
how does this benefit the knicks W column?? wil will suck it up and play because he has all along. but that is not a winning strategy.
The majority of Power Forwards in the league these days are face up jump shooters. It would be one thing if he were guarding Karl Malone, Austin Carr, Rick mahorn, and Charles Barkley, Kevin Willis etc every night.
which is why you can play gallo at power forward without worry about him being bullied. plus he is playing against players his length so he is not at the disadvantage will is, who is shorter at 6’8. at some point the coach needs to see we have bad match-ups particularly when it comes to length.
gian and wingo are exactly on point with their opinions. and the winning solution isnt, suck it up.
by cheers from manhattan on Jan 19, 2011 2:08 PM EST up reply actions
Hello dear
No I did not argue against Gallo playing PF. I have said and since you have just gotten here let me school you, that Gallinari is a PF playing small forward. What I argued is that Chandler is a better rebounder than Gallo is right now, and therefore it makes more sense to play the better rebounder at PF. I am all for Gallinari playing PF if he rebounds. If he is not going to rebound then franlky I want the better rebounder at that spot where rebounding is so crucial I don’t care if he is 6"2!
And yes Chandler needs to suck it up. Since most of you don’t know the Knicks since before 1993 let me inform you. Good teams get tired, good teams have there top guys banged up, but good teams don’t use that as an excuse, they find a way to produce and win ball games. Chandler is playing the same number of minutes that he played last year, yet there was not a single post talking about his getting worn down. yet you could have argued that having to chase Ray Allen all over the perimeter and fighting through picks while having to guard Kobe Bryant also took a toll on him physically. Yet zero posts. Rejoice my friend. This is a sign that the Knicks are finally starting to get good. if the Knicks were 10 and 30 right now would any of you care how many minutes Chandler, Felton, or Stoudemire were playing. And for the record if Chandler wants 12 mil a year, like he says he does, then he has got to show that he can handle 35 minutes a night and produce I don’t care if he has to play point guard. Just like I pointed out to you about Amar’e Dwight Howard is just as banged up, yet he has gotta produce. Amar’e I am sure is just as tired as Chandler, but yet he produces. You want to get paid like the big boys then you gotta produce, If not then sign your qualifiying offer! Nothing personal just business.
by Robert Curre on Jan 19, 2011 2:48 PM EST up reply actions
to be fair
I have never ever heard Wil come close to complaining about min or using that as an excuse for anything. (I mean, you never even hear chandler talk, and if you did… i think he would discount the notion he cant guard PF real quick.)
And yes Chandler needs to suck it up.
Sometimes its not really a matter of sucking it up, it just is. Part of it is a young guy learning how to conserve energy, part of it is a young guy at a new position and is learning that. Part of it is a young guy learning when and how to take over games.
I am a fan of both the mets and knicks... so just kill me now.
I did not argue against Gallo playing PF. —Robert Curre
we weaken the team by playing him at 4.—Robert Curre
by cheers from manhattan on Jan 19, 2011 3:05 PM EST up reply actions
You are my ex-Wife! LOL
Really cause no dude would have done what you just did, and she had a habit of hearing only what she wanted to hear. I gave a detailed explanation about Gallinari is another post and how if he is going to play pf he needs to rebound, I even said that if he can show that he can be consistent rebouding then I am fine with him playing PF. However, if he is not going to rebound then we weaken the team by playing him at 4. Really my man that was a straight beyaaaach move. Cut and paste the whole comment next time!
by Robert Curre on Jan 19, 2011 3:12 PM EST up reply actions
He's just talking basketball. What do you mean you need context?
Now he’ll dip out of the conversation citing “insults” after you called him out like that. Way to go, Robert.
"what a mook" is basketball conversation?
to say “argue the content, not semantics.” is basketball conversation? if ray smuckles was worries about content he would have included that gallo plays away from the basket ergo why he rebounds less. simple.
by cheers from manhattan on Jan 19, 2011 3:28 PM EST up reply actions
He was talking about your venture into the Queendom of
P___K Beyaaatch!
by Robert Curre on Jan 19, 2011 3:30 PM EST up reply actions
"P___K Beyaaatch!" lol you mad?
by cheers from manhattan on Jan 19, 2011 3:41 PM EST up reply actions
Hey you went there not me. I could have just posted my comment
and made you look like a total fool. Just gotta call them like I see them. That was seriously something my ex-wife would do, say I said something when she knows I said the exact opposite. Look if you are her under a pseudonym just say so. I will remind you of the restraining order and not comment on your posts!
by Robert Curre on Jan 19, 2011 3:45 PM EST up reply actions
i didnt go there, i quoted you, thats it.
you went over the deep end after that.
by cheers from manhattan on Jan 19, 2011 3:48 PM EST up reply actions
that wasnt a quote
u put two pieces of a quote together.
"they try to do what he do, and been where he's been, but they get folded in two.....he's the dude"
i put two pieces of a robert curre quote together
if it sounded contradictory, it did to me too.
by cheers from manhattan on Jan 19, 2011 4:58 PM EST up reply actions
its born every time you mix personal with basketball
“what a mook” “P___K Beyaaatch!” will lead to it every time.
by cheers from manhattan on Jan 19, 2011 3:47 PM EST up reply actions
lol I dont even know what a mook is.
and that was a comment to my old pal Currence, not you.
As far as the “Gallo is never near the basket” argument, sure he spots up at the three point line… half the time he is on the floor. So does Chandler on offense, but he pulls in more. What about Fields? He is around the 3 pt line on both sides of the floor, and still produces more of both them. Talent, approach, and mindset contribute more to rebounding than “he shoots a lot of threes” subtracts from it.
Most Definitely
by Ray Smuckles on Jan 19, 2011 4:32 PM EST up reply actions
landry came from a stanford basketball where his strength was rebounding
so landry is just continuing to do what he knows best. with gallo this could very well be a "i was never taught defense" stat moment. where you play gallo at the 4 then work with him during practice to get better and better at rebounding. i dont think it will be that dramatic a learning curve.
by cheers from manhattan on Jan 19, 2011 5:03 PM EST up reply actions
really in your world dudes don't quote? ok.
the point about rebounding is weak, its just to baby gallo. you not babying wil, he has to “suck it up” (look im quoting again). so don’t baby gallo.. give him consistent minutes closer to the basket, he will get those rebounds.
by cheers from manhattan on Jan 19, 2011 3:37 PM EST up reply actions
No in my world dudes don't quote things out of context to make themselves
look right when they are actually wrong. But that is what i get for trying to have a rational conversation with you.
You even have me questioning your Knowledge of the Knicks and your intergity. What position did Danilo Gallinari start at last year? Ans. PF that is why Al Buckets who was the Starting PF got his panties in a twist. Oops but you can’t quote the facts cause they make you look foolish!!!! Next you will say Gallo rebounded like minnie mouse last year because that greedy David Lee was gobbling up all the rebounds!
by Robert Curre on Jan 19, 2011 3:42 PM EST up reply actions
well in my world dudes quote, it is a common polite practice.
by cheers from manhattan on Jan 19, 2011 3:52 PM EST up reply actions
You did not quote
copying part of a sentence is not a quote. You didnt even capture the nature of the idea, and to think I was actually sort of agreeing with you. Oh Well. You have proven you are a person without integrity in my book. And Also you appear to have very little knowledge of basketball in general or the Knicks in particular so I will no longer waste my time on you sugah britches!
by Robert Curre on Jan 19, 2011 3:55 PM EST up reply actions
the nature of your idea is gallo poor rebounding will hurt the team
the team is already being out-rebounded, it cant get any worst with gallo at pf imho.
by cheers from manhattan on Jan 19, 2011 5:00 PM EST up reply actions
...rebounding-wise
because chandler is currently better at it than gallo, thus should play at the more rebound-oriented position.
If you insist on arguing, argue the content, not semantics. Currence has wanted Gallo to improve rebounding and play the PF since before you were born (on P&T).
Most Definitely
by Ray Smuckles on Jan 19, 2011 3:13 PM EST up reply actions
ha no problem
well worth coming out of hibernation for.
Most Definitely
by Ray Smuckles on Jan 19, 2011 3:15 PM EST up reply actions
you admitting it was all i wanted. thank you
Most Definitely
by Ray Smuckles on Jan 19, 2011 4:19 PM EST up reply actions
Now that we're cool again, could you please just tell me how you got RB and Teodor outta Nice Pete's van?
It’s only been 3 months since something happened there fer chrissakes. You’re killin me.
haha you are the first to reference this
well-played ace
Most Definitely
by Ray Smuckles on Jan 19, 2011 4:35 PM EST up reply actions
gallo plays away from the basket, thats the reason for his low rebounds.
put gallo in a position to play closer to the basket, his rebounds will naturally go up.
by cheers from manhattan on Jan 19, 2011 3:26 PM EST up reply actions
Oh naturally
You know what else would help Gallo’s rebounding? A commitment to rebounding. Field’s also plays pretty far from the basket, but he consistently hustles, boxes out, and uses his smarts to find loose balls. Hopefully Gallo adapts with time, at least in the range of Chandler’s numbers.
And no, i do not want to discuss it further.
Most Definitely
by Ray Smuckles on Jan 19, 2011 4:25 PM EST up reply actions
check the sets on O man.
almost every player sets up at the 3 pt line. its the offense, its spreading the floor. Landry swoops in almost every shot for the possibility for a put back / rebound. Gallo can rebound more.. and more than just sitting under the rim, he needs to be more aggresive.
"they try to do what he do, and been where he's been, but they get folded in two.....he's the dude"
landry came from a stanford basketball where his strength was rebounding
so landry is just continuing to do what he knows best. with gallo this could very well be a “i was never taught defense” stat moment. where you play gallo at the 4 then work with him during practice to get better and better at rebounding. i dont think it will be that dramatic a learning curve.
by cheers from manhattan on Jan 19, 2011 4:53 PM EST up reply actions
Gallo to the Bench
Currence if he remembers Gallinari played the starting 2, 3, 4, and 5 at times because of his step dad D’Antoni. If I recall Gallinari started games at the four while played the five and at times played the five. Chandler did not start the first 16 games because of Gallinari. He came off the bench.
So why not start Gallianri now at the four in the second unit? It is a fit to give Stodemire a breather without hurting the team. S.Williams is perfect coming off the bench at the three. He will give Chandler breathers so him and Soudemire can close the game out to victory.
Its a joke how all you so call Knicks fans have always had excuse for Gallinari just D’Antoni.
Its a team and not about the Baby Boy.
Come on already and wake up ad put him in at PF in second unit for the good of the team. Not for Dziedzic for the team.
How am I doing Seth? Better?
it was excellent until baby boy lol
myself i don’t consider gallo soft. i dont think he has ever not did what the coach wanted. thats why i never scream on gallo when he is standing on the three line waiting for a cab.
this team is trying to meet mda’s expectations and frankly that is part of the problem. cause mda’s expectations dont meet reality. mda doesnt take into account the wear and tear of his system.. if he did, the rotations would be longer and the minutes managed better.
by cheers from manhattan on Jan 19, 2011 5:16 PM EST up reply actions
This will be short
Which, I know, is unlike me:
I actually agree with you that Gallo would be good on the second unit.
I think his passing would help that unit a lot, the way Ronny’ s passing skills help
I hate it when you imply that MDA is an idiot, and / or that Knick fans who agree with him are not true Knicks fans or are apologists or whatever, and / or that Gallo is an overrated loser or whatever.
Your posts are good ideas buried inside a wet, drippy camel-turd burrito.
If your comments were less vitriolic I think would enjoy them more, and might stop thinking inappropriate thoughts involving you and a flock of wild ravenous wildebeest with digestive issues every time I read them. Thoughts for which I accept full and sole responsibility, even though I really kind of enjoy them.
So please. I sometimes enjoy your ideas, but the meanness (in my opinion, and I fully acknowledge that I may be wrong) with which they are posted is somewhat off-putting. I’m not trying to be mean to you. This is just how I experience your posts.
MDA may not be an idiot, and / or the Knick fans who agree with him might be true Knicks fans. We are none of the things you imply (imo) we are. We just disagree with you.
And yes, this is what passes for a “Short” post for me :)
Does this make sense??
by AtlKnicksFan on Jan 19, 2011 5:42 PM EST up reply actions
Its bound to Happen
No matter what a player is going to get tired after a little gameplay but you can’t do anything about it except either expand your bench play or start acquiring younger players in order to avoid the exhaustion during games.
Off-Topic...
Can Melo do the same sign and trade this off-season (right after the finals) that LeBron did with Miami? Or does the current CBA end right after the finals not allowing any sort of transctions?
If I can make it there, I'll make it anywhere...It's up to you, New York, New York!!!!
melo says he see's a lockout looming
and that is part of his consideration in signing the extension.. plus ap sports reported it is not melo who is holding up a trade to nets, it is nugs who want more picks and want nets to take balkman.
by cheers from manhattan on Jan 19, 2011 2:17 PM EST up reply actions
I don't think so
I’m pretty sure we either get him before the deadline or when the new CBA comes out
I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is that moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle - victorious.
Vince Lombardi
i dont know if you still use your fb
but i messaged you on there so i wouldnt clog up P&T with our chit chat.
Oh, sorry. I don't really logon to my FB account too much except when people come up and ask me why I've let their friend request sit there for months.
I’ll check it later.
Every time GAx and KnickChick post
I feel like I’m watching a Jennifer Aniston movie and I’ve missed the first Act. In a good way. It’s kinda fun trying to figger out WTF.
Please keep it up. Seriously, it’s kinda cool. Tho I may have wrecked it by calling it out….
by AtlKnicksFan on Jan 19, 2011 5:50 PM EST up reply actions
oh
but not saying we can’t interact on here, lol, just saying that it would be nice to catch up and see what you’ve been getting into these days outside of ball.
Nice. Amar'e coasts ~6pts: doing damage while taking a beating
and goes buck wild at the 4th. Those are the best MMA fights. Should Wilson Chandler follow suit?
twitter/sugrcuki
the best mma fights are when GSP wins but i may be playing favorites :)
i was just able to click and see the sean sherk cardio workout video gian linked, thats just insane. lol if wil had to do that i think he would play so angry, we would finally see emotion, and the other team would tap out (literally.)
by cheers from manhattan on Jan 19, 2011 4:17 PM EST up reply actions
lol even curry shooting threes--
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptOz8noR_TA
youtube uploaded today of knicks pregame (rockets) shoot-around.
by cheers from manhattan on Jan 19, 2011 5:35 PM EST reply actions
Great topic and graphs!
Thanks Gian.
It seems, from the graphs, that twp things are evident.
1) Will’s production falls off more than the other three starters graphed.
2) We need another 4Q “go-to” guy.
Regarding #1: I like DT’s system. I like that they bust ass down the floor the whole game. I’m sick of walk- it -up hoops. SSOL makes for good spectating and more freewheeling, exciting plays. But when you add to SSOL the fact that DTY won’t go deep on his bench you are creating a fatal flaw. At some point everyone is going to be tired. That not only may hold down production…it also creates greater risk of injury. If you are going to run and play aggressive D then I think you have to come at the other team in waves. Seven deep won’t cut it…you need at least 9…ten is better. Come on Mr Mike….go deeper!
Regarding # 2: I’ve not been an advocate of getting Melo. I see him as a ball stopper. But maybe I should reconsider. Having another 4Q “go-to guy” would be very helpful here. But I still don’t want to give up Will, Gallo, DWTDD or Landry for him.
Just sayin’
its one thing to start it with a positive jam and it's another thing to see it on through....The Hold Steady
by sadderbudweiser on Jan 19, 2011 5:43 PM EST reply actions
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