Plan A - The Trade that Changed Everything
by Left Coast Cowboy on Jan 2, 2011 7:04 AM EST
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PrintHappy New Year's P&Ter's!
Not sure if all that holiday revelry took too much of a toll on my already questionable senses, but I'm entering this new year more confident than ever that this Knicks team is on the verge of something BIG. Unlike Osborn's well thought out Plan D, E, and F trade possibilities...this post is aimed straight at the Chis Paul Prophecy of a new Big 3 in NYC!
I think this would actually be 2 trades to make all the details work...but for simplicity you can see this as a single 4 team trade here - http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=38hufgm
This would be your new NY Knick's depth chart by position (with 3 new players in bold):
PG – CP3 / Ish Smith / DWTDD / Rautins
SG – Landryman / DWTDD / Walker / Mason
SF – Melo / Gallo / Landryman / Extra E
PF – Gallo / Amar'e / Melo
C – Amar'e / Turiaf
+3 – Roster openings for signing Vet minimum contracts
Take the jump to see how we get there...and why this might be a realistic scenario, and not just a Knicks pipe dream.
KNICKS
GETS GIVES
- Chris Paul (PG) - Ray "Smooth as" Felton (PG)
- Carmelo Anthony (SF) - Wilson Chandler (SF)
- Ishmael Smith (PG) - Anthony Randolph (PF)
- Kelenna Azubuike (G-F)
- Timofey Mozgov (C)
- Eddy Curry (C)
- $6M
- 2 x 2011 2nd rd. picks
- 2014 1st rd. pick
NEW ORLEANS
GETS GIVES
- Raymond Felton (PG) - Chris Paul (PG)
- Wilson Chandler (SF) - 2011 2nd rd. Pick
- Kelenna Azubuike (G-F)
- $3M (fr. NY)
HOUSTON
GETS GIVES
- Timofey Mozgov (C) - 2011 1st rd. Pick (top 5 protected)
- Anthony Randolph (PF) - Jordan Hill (or Terrence Williams) (F)
- Al Harrington (F-C) - Jared Jeffries (F)
- 2011 2nd rd. Pick (fr. NY) - Ishmael Smith (PG)
DENVER
GETS GIVES
- 2011 1st rd. Pick (fr. Houston) - Melo (F)
- 2 x 2011 2nd rd. picks (fr. NY&NO) - Al Harrington (F-C)
- 2014 1st rd. Pick (fr. NY)
- $3M (fr. NY)
- Jordan Hill (PF) or Terrence Williams (SF)
- Jarred Jeffries (F)
- Eddie Curry (C)
WHY THE KNICKS MAKE THIS TRADE
1st – If you have to ask…
2nd – In addition to the obvious, they get a true backup PG (and fellow demon deacon) to grab 10-12 min a game and keep CP3 fresh and healthy
3rd – While they’re outta cap space, could use another sharpshooter/defender, and really need help with size, rebounding and defense at Center+PF, they’ll have a biennial exception ($2M) and will be very attractive to savvy, older vet’s (e.g. Tony Battie) who will take a vet minimum contract to contend for a championship.
This trade shows no disrespect to Ray "Smooth as" Felton, or Chill Will Chandler. Both have proven themselves to be top young talents and borderline all-stars…but when you have a chance to acquire superstars, you have to be willing to give up very good players as part of the deal. While the Knicks current squad is young, talented and improving, it’s clear that some of the younger guys will take time to develop and it’s tough to imagine STAT and Ray-Ray continuing to play this hard without suffering some negative consequences.
The Knicks won’t get desperate/stupid to make this trade, because their Plan B - adding a strong interior presence to pair with Amare (e.g. Marc. Gasol), and a solid backup PG could also develop into a championship caliber squad if the young guns improve faster than the stars wear down…but that’s a big IF.
WHY NEW ORLEANS MAKES THIS TRADE
1st – Because the writing’s on the wall - They’ve seen Cleveland, Toronto, and Phoenix lose big by holding onto stars they couldn’t resign. With Melo holding strong on controlling his own destiny, they’re seeing the same script playing out in Denver. They hate to see CP3 go (who wouldn’t), but know the longer they wait the less they’ll get in return for their Superstar.
2nd – They may actually be a better team after this trade than before it. Hollinger predicts the Hornets would be 3 games better after this trade, which shouldn't be a big surprise since they're getting very good, young players at positions they need help in.
3rd – Money – Between the cash they’ll receive, the insurance payments on Azubuike’s contract and savings on paying Chandler and Felton vs. CP3, The Hornets stand to make about $6M this season on this deal. Real money, for a team that needs it.
4th Control – All 3 player contracts are reasonable and give good team control:
· Felton – three yr. contract with 3rd year being a team option
· Wil Chan – Restricted Free Agent, so the Hornets can’t lose him unless they refuse to pay market value.
· Azubuike – Team option for next year is reasonable if he returns to his pre-injury form, or declinable if he doesn’t
WHY HOUSTON MAKES THIS TRADE
1st - Because they get what they desperately need – Size, youth, athleticism and experience at the C and PF positions. Yao Ming may not be forgotten, but he’s absolutely gone. Houston just lost their current starting Center, Chuck Hayes, to a high ankle sprain. Chuck avg’s slightly less than 6pts and 6 reb’s a game…about what you’d expect from a 6’6" Center.
· Mozgov is a raw talent, but his work ethic, coordination and athleticism in a 7’2" 270lb body could be a powerful force once his fundamentals – hands and footwork – catch up to his physical talent. Yao and Brad Miller will both be good mentor’s for Mozzy, and Houston has experience helping fish out of water foreign players acclimate to their new home.
· Randolph is a similar story, with awesome physical talent (that he flashed with Golden State while setting records in summer league) and a solid work ethic (he’s put in 50 lbs of muscle since leaving LSU as a 175lb bean pole), but he’s only 21 and has never really had a stable team or coach or develop him into a strong role player. Physically he could be the next Marcus Camby…mentally he needs some good, patient coaching. Going to a team that’s physically and culturally closer to his roots and family in Texas and Louisiana could be a very good landing spot for him.
· Al Harrington is a solid, veteran stretch 4-5 that can help spread the floor with good 3point shooting range and will give them good flexibility to mix things up in the front court depending on matchups they’re facing.
2nd – They take on manageable contracts with significant upside while getting rid of Jeffries, who's expensive and no longer considered to have a future in Houston.
3rd – Their don’t give up anything that puts a real dent in their team
WHY DENVER MAKES THIS TRADE
Because they’re down to plan C, and this is the best they’ll get. If Melo won’t sign with Denver or Jersey, they’ll be hard pressed to get a better rebuilding package than:
· 4 Draft picks - 2 1st's + 2 2nd's, w/ 1 a likely lottery pick
· A young, recent lottery pick with potential in Jordan Hill or Terrence Williams
· Tremendous Flexibility and Cap Control
Yes this is a bit of an "oh shit" trade for them, but it's a heck of a lot better than what Cleveland, Toronto, or Phoenix got when they kept their stars past the trade deadline.
Unloading Harrington and Melo, means, they’ll have less than $10M in committed salaries for 2011 if Nene opt’s out of his contract. This may not put a smile on the faces of Nuggets fans, but for the team owner that actually OK's the trade it's not all bad. This year the Nuggets are paying $83M in salaries for a 7th place team that may not even make the playoffs. Starting next year they can rebuild quickly, thoroughly, and stay profitable by avoiding the long, bloated contracts that doom so many teams. It's not ideal, but it's a whole lot better than Cleveland or Detroit from an owner's viewpoint.
Many different ways to spin the details and teams involved in these trades, but I truly believe that if Chris Paul and Carmelo both really want to play together in NY that they have enough leverage, and NY has enough assets, to make it happen. So there's my take on how Donnie and the Knicks will engineer the fastest turn-around in NBA history...and why it's not impossible for the Knicks to contend for a ring this year.
Whether you think this is crazy or prophetic, it's always good to hear from the community on why this trade does or doesn't make sense for any of the teams or players involved, so thanks for taking the time to read and respond!
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Absolutely not. Denver would rather lose Melo for nothing than get Curry, Jefffries and Jordan Hill. I know that gives them a shit ton of cap relief, but they’d never do that. Frankly, Houston, Denver or NOLA wouldnt ever do this trade
They also get 4 draft picks and offload their worst contract for rebuilding
Which puts them in much better shape than if they do nothing and just let Melo walk away this Summer.
by Left Coast Cowboy on Jan 2, 2011 2:09 PM EST up reply actions
None of the other teams do this trade
I dunno why we have to blow everything up either
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
We don't Need to blow up this team...but big changes are probably needed to become a contender
Which is why I don’t think the Knicks will desperately pursue this and trade everything they have to make it happen. But all the players we want to keep have accelerating contracts (e.g. Chandler’s cap hold triples after the season from ~$2M to ~$6M), so we’d have to give up at least 1-2 pieces to sign a big player even if we waited till free agency to do it.
You can be patient and believe time and youth is on our side to overcome Boston and maybe even Orlando in a few years. The question is how to beat Miami?
by Left Coast Cowboy on Jan 2, 2011 1:55 PM EST up reply actions
why big changes to become a contender?
if our starting 5 could play 48 minutes and not get into foul trouble…we’d contend with anyone and a few plays bounce to our side we can take Miami.
Thy need depth. Either a starting caliber 5 or 2 in order to push Chandler/Gallo or Fields to the bench, or a PG in the Luke Ridnour mold that can run and score.
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
I agree with you on what we need
But expect we’d have to make just as many changes to add:
- A strong, starting 5;
- an improvement at 2; and
- a solid back-up PG
You show me how we do that without breaking up the band and I’m down with it…unfortunately I don’t think it’s possible because of our escalating salaries.
by Left Coast Cowboy on Jan 2, 2011 2:30 PM EST up reply actions
can do all of that with steady improvement from our youngins
then you got the boatload of cash we’ll have after all the dead weight is gone at the end of the season.
There you go.
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
The "dead weight" cash boat is just a myth
This same team, minus Curry and Mason, but with salary escalations only drops ~$3M in salary and cap holds. That’s why we’ll need to make big changes to make significant additions. Drop Azubuike or Mozzy you’ll get ~$3.3M ea., Chandler gets you $6M, Extra E or Walker ~$900K ea….whatever road you travel you’ll only land additions by subtraction.
by Left Coast Cowboy on Jan 2, 2011 3:53 PM EST up reply actions
still a boatload of cash left over
and the youngins still improve.
So the myth is we need to make big changes now, actually.
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
Huh? Where are you finding this boatload of cash?
Unless you expect a big raise in in next year’s cap (which I haven’t seen anyone anticipate), or think a lot of Knicks not named Curry and Mason are dead weight (who exactly?)…I don’t know where you’re getting all this extra cash for free agents.
by Left Coast Cowboy on Jan 2, 2011 5:05 PM EST up reply actions
They have about 16 million left over for next year
Chandler’s rights are retained so they can sign whoever then go over the cap with Chandler..so he basically doesn’t count.
I dunno where you’re coming up with this doomsday advice that we’re completely incapable of doing anything other then major changes..especially since we’re one of the only teams worth a damn with a lot of cap room next offseason.
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
I think you're confused on how cap space is calculated
Here’s a link to the Knick’s Salaries and Cap Space
Chandler counts, $6.4M to start, and could count even more if he signs a higher offer somewhere. To get to $16M in space we’d need to lose significant pieces – e.g. Chandler, Turiaf and Azubuike – dropping Curry and Mason just brings us back to even with the cap this summer.
I’m not trying to be doom and gloom, this is just our reality. Yes we can be a player in this summer’s free agency, but to make cap room we’ll still lose key players from this year…which is why some smart trade, big or small, probably makes sense for us.
by Left Coast Cowboy on Jan 3, 2011 12:17 AM EST up reply actions
Back to even?
I think you’re the one misinterpreting things here. Without wasting any more time, just know that the Knicks didn’t make the qualifying offer to Chandler.
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
Matters because what we SHOULD do is linked to what we CAN do
We can agree to disagree, but I think this is actually a big and important point of confusion among Knicks fans (even before any possible CBA changes get considered).
Don’t understand your point about Chandler’s qualifying offer – those are made after the season ends if the team doesn’t extend his contract or renounce their rights first.
This topic probably needs its own post to address it more clearly.
by Left Coast Cowboy on Jan 3, 2011 4:09 PM EST up reply actions
Disagree
I don’t think our starting 5 is good enough, mostly because there’s very little frontcourt depth. The Lakers, Boston, Magic, Bulls would all be impossible to defeat in a 7-game series at this point. Against these teams, we are going to get destroyed on the defensive end by the low post game; what’s more it even puts our offense in jeopardy if Amar’e or Wilson gets into foul trouble.
The team has two solutions: Either play absolutely lights out offensively, with no dry spells, or get bigger up front. Both will be costly, and the Knicks aren’t there yet. I know this offense has had some insane games, but against elite defenses with strong bigs, our offense goes from awesome to slightly above average, not gonna get it done.
This is my question, and I myself don’t know the answer: Is keeping Chandler, signing Gasol, drafting a PG, and either playing more Randolph/Mozgov or trading them for more size going to make us a contender? Or do we need Melo? If the moves I mentioned are possible, let’s do that.
Personally, I would do all those moves and try to get Rudy Fernandez too (maybe Walker+Shawne?)
GO CUSE, BLUE, AND EAGLES!
How about DJ Augustin & Tyrus Thomas for
Felton & Randolph
If Carmelo comes to NY, say goodbye to Gallinari.
Both players are small forwards.
its obvious that everything dude writes is made to be ignored
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
???
seriously?
What did the 5 fingers say to the face?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7CBwX1891A
HaHaHaHa!
by Lord Smackington on Jan 2, 2011 7:03 PM EST up reply actions
N.O. is controlled by the league now
NO way they’re trading Paul.
Denver would never ever ever ever give up Melo for three completely worthless players and 1 first round pick. Makes no sense at all
by PJCarlisimo's Neck on Jan 2, 2011 11:01 AM EST reply actions
See reply to Stingy below on why this makes it easier to sell the Hornets.
In Denver’s case, this deal would come down at the trade deadline and they’d agree to it because getting:
- $ Money + Contract/cap relief
- 4 draft picks; and
- 1 young player who could develop into something
…is a lot better than nothing at all.
by Left Coast Cowboy on Jan 2, 2011 2:04 PM EST up reply actions
i think denver would rather keep melo and make a run this year than trade him for that
there’s really nothing at all in your proposal for them right now, and even less so in the future. who is the “young player who could develop into something” that you mention? surely you dont mean jordan hill??
by PJCarlisimo's Neck on Jan 2, 2011 5:28 PM EST up reply actions
You might be right about Denver...but to me that makes no sense
Keep Denver together in the hope they overachieve and make it to the 2nd round of the playoffs? Personally I’d rather turn the page – trade the older assets, go young and fun, lower ticket prices and focus on building the next contender. Getting nothing because you’re not getting what you want just seems silly.
And yes, if I was rebuilding I wouldn’t write-off Jordan Hill, Terrence Williams, Anthony Randolph, or Bill Walker just yet.
by Left Coast Cowboy on Jan 3, 2011 12:29 AM EST up reply actions
Why not send the rights to Isiah as a coch to Miami for Bosh, Wade, and LeBron while you're at it
It’s just as likely as any of those teams being satisfied with the offers you’re throwing out there
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 2, 2011 12:13 PM EST reply actions
I'd ask you to be more specific
But as a Nets fan, I’m guessing you’re just hating because you don’t have much to love these days…
by Left Coast Cowboy on Jan 2, 2011 2:12 PM EST up reply actions
better find someone who will buy the hornets soon
cus they won’t buy the team with chris paul in another state.
/// aighttho.com \\\/// twitter.com/aighttho \\\
So you'd rather buy a 1 year rental on a Superstar than own 2 all-stars?
This trade should makes the Hornets more attractive to a new owner, because they avoid the uncertainty and drama that followed this year’s Nuggets.
Plus, it’s not like Felton and Chandler don’t win over the crowd. Fans want to root for players they expect to be comming back, so having a short-time Superstar isn’t all that great. That’s why teams wouldn’t give up much for Melo this year without being able to resign him to an extension.
by Left Coast Cowboy on Jan 2, 2011 1:40 PM EST up reply actions
Felton is a FA at the same time as Paul, Chandler is a RFA this year
How do you suppose the NBA will be able to justify an inevitable bump in salary for both of them once they hit the open market?
by PJCarlisimo's Neck on Jan 2, 2011 5:31 PM EST up reply actions
In 2 years Felton has a team option for $8M, Paul a player option for $18M
Felton+Chandler should not cost any more than Paul, and the team has much more control over them.
by Left Coast Cowboy on Jan 3, 2011 12:35 AM EST up reply actions
Wow. Not a fan of this trade, but I do appreciate the effort you put into it
Dear God, Im a Knicks Fan, Just wanted to say Thanks for Amare, but can you send him some help?
Appreciate the feedback
I’m surprised ~1 in 5 people “hate the trade” on a Knicks blog. In my opinion that’s either underestimating how good Melo and CP3 are, or overestimating how much we’ll be able to improve the Knicks via free agency and the draft.
Always interesting to know what fellow fans are thinking though.
by Left Coast Cowboy on Jan 3, 2011 1:26 AM EST up reply actions
This would be an amazing trade. It'd be a bitter pill to swallow initially but what a return.
I just don’t know if N.O. will participate in any transactions with the League owning the team. Per Phil Jackson’s comments on the situation, a lot of people around the league would get huffy about a trade like this.
Yea, League politics seems like one of the biggest hurdles to our getting CP3
I have faith that this trade could be made with a real owner and GM who believed Paul would be gone after next year anyway…but whether David Stern, who other fans think already favor’s NY, would sign off on it is something I’m a lot less confident in.
by Left Coast Cowboy on Jan 2, 2011 5:12 PM EST up reply actions
eh...
I know these are all hypothetical but I wouldn’t be comfortable gutting a team with a winning record in the middle of the season for 3 guys who’ve never played together.
Not that it wouldn’t be an ill lineup cause it indeed looks like one, but I wouldn’t attempt something like that until the off-season unless our record looked like New Jersey’s
What did the 5 fingers say to the face?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7CBwX1891A
HaHaHaHa!
by Lord Smackington on Jan 2, 2011 7:02 PM EST reply actions
one thing to say
this trade would be amazing, but this trade will also never happen, so idk why you’d put so much effort into writing this thing
Lol...perils of being a fan I guess
Can’t help daydreaming about how the knicks can make it to the promised land…and would really like to see the CP3 Prophecy fulfilled. This trade popped into my head and seemed to help each team (as least in the long-run), so I figured I’d write it up to see what y’all thought.
I guess it took some effort…but it sure didn’t feel like work ;^).
by Left Coast Cowboy on Jan 3, 2011 1:16 AM EST up reply actions
wishful thinking
this trade only work for the knicks players wise, and the league wouldn’t let it happen with out an investigation, but for wishful thinking send Gallo not Chandler and i love it
I appreciate the effort behind analyzing this complicated trade
And aside from the admission that it’s highly unlikely to happen and even happen soon, I just think it would not achieve what Carmelo Anthony wants or the Knicks want.
First off, I am becoming more and more skeptical about moving Ray Felton, even if it is for Chris Paul. Thats not to say Felton is better than Paul… he isn’t. But I dislike the idea that we might essentially sign a guy to groom him for a trade. We signed Ray Felton… he is having a career year and he loves it here. Since we are winning (and even in losses, he has played steadily well aside from his last couple games), I don’t get why people would consider him an asset like this.
2nd, Melo has stated that he actually isn’t interested in going to a team if they are gutting themselves to get him. Sure we keep Landry and Gallo and Douglas in this move, but we become quite shallow at the C spot and overall.
Lastly, in bringing in Anthony (and his $21Mil) and CP3 (who is about to get a contract extension himself), how the hell do we afford anyone else other than say Joel Anthony’s twin brother with an eye-patch and a left leg limp? The money just isn’t there when you consider this new CBA and a potentially harder cap salary cap to surpass.
This is all of course, assuming the other teams would agree to this mega deal. I just don’t think they would be as willing to do so, especially knowing the Knicks end up with 2 bonafide superstars. It’s not that the packages aren’t legit… they probably are. However, I think those teams feel they could actually get more for their players than just expiring contracts and role players. Someone will give them a star.
"Madison Square Garden is the ultimate basketball stage. That's where I belong. That's where I live. That's the home of the New York Knicks." - Amar'e Stoudemire
by Chris Child's Fist on Jan 3, 2011 11:37 AM EST reply actions
Your point about Felton is big in so many ways...
…and I’m right there with you in loving the heart and hustle that he brings night in and night out. The romantic side of me wants to stay loyal to a player like that, keep this core together and just pray our young players get better faster than our older ones wear down. But in my head I struggle to see this Knicks team beating Miami, and I see years of Felton v. Wade feeling like Starks v. Jordan deja vu. So as much as I love Felton, I think CP3 improves our team even more than Melo. I also think Ray-Ray would find plenty to love about living in the big easy (it’s not NYC, but it’s a truly great city), and he’d be getting paid $16M to play BBall for 2 years in New Orleans…not sent to Iraq.
Aside from the new CBA, which I ignore because that’s just a pandora’s box of what if’s, I’m not too worried about your other concerns:
- Playing on a team with Amar’e, CP3, and anyone not named Eddie Curry cannot be considered gutted (or at least not any more gutted than Miami…especially with us keeping Gallo and Landry)
- You’re right that we’ll need to fill in the team with players at vet minimum contracts, but again I point to Miami for why this isn’t necessarily anything to fear.
- I wrote this up as a 4 team “mega-deal” but really it’s two seperate deals:
1st – a straight trade with NO; and
2nd – a three team deal with Denver (Houston was top of mind for me, but there are probably even better 3rd teams out there).
This for me is “Plan A” because it makes us a legit contender this year. I think there’s still “Plan B” potential to get Melo 1st, and then trading for Paul next year…but I don’t think we’ll ever get both of them and surround them with a far superior team than the one we have here.
by Left Coast Cowboy on Jan 3, 2011 2:47 PM EST up reply actions
I guess I believe that Plan A doesn't have to be CP3 AND Melo
But quickly… Chris Paul’s contract is up in 2012. He is gonna be another max extension guy. That would mean with Melo and Amar’e, we have 3 max guys.
Here is one reason why it worked in Miami: The Trifuckta signed for $15M, $15M, $16M. That’s a total of $46Mil for 3 guys. Hefty indeed, but the current salary cap is about $58Mil right now. That gave them $13Mil to work with.
Consider that we have Amar’e at $20 Mil and bringing Melo with his extension means he is $21 Mil. Right there, we have TWO guys combining for $41Mil of a $58Mil cap. Now, even if that cap rises next season to $65… we would have $24 Mil with which to sign Chris Paul and the other 2 spots on our roster. Now… Chris Paul is already getting paid $16.3Mil (and his player option for 2012/13 is $17.7Mil)…
I mean, that means Amar’e’s $20, Melo’s $21, and CP3’s $16 makes $57Mil for 3 guys.
Seriously… it honestly doesn’t matter HOW good that combo would be… that’s not going to give the Knicks a winner. And fiscally handicapped doesn’t even begin to describe the Knicks.
"Madison Square Garden is the ultimate basketball stage. That's where I belong. That's where I live. That's the home of the New York Knicks." - Amar'e Stoudemire
by Chris Child's Fist on Jan 3, 2011 4:07 PM EST up reply actions
seriously... enjoy what Ray Felton brings... which is excellent, BTW
because there is not gonna be a better PG wth the Knicks, especially if Carmelo Anthony dons the orange and blue. Unless we take him as a FA and his contract is only for like $13Mil and CP3 agrees to a similar deal as well… even then it’s a shitton to ask.
"Madison Square Garden is the ultimate basketball stage. That's where I belong. That's where I live. That's the home of the New York Knicks." - Amar'e Stoudemire
by Chris Child's Fist on Jan 3, 2011 4:10 PM EST up reply actions
I expect to enjoy watching Ray-Ray every day he plays for the Knicks
I’m just not sure he’ll ever win us a championship, which is less about him being imperfect, and more about Miami raising the bar.
by Left Coast Cowboy on Jan 3, 2011 4:59 PM EST up reply actions
I could be a jackass
but I really really don’t think they’ll take the title this year. Eventually yea,but probably their second or third year together. Maybe it’s just wishful thinking or denial but I think they lay an egg in the playoffs.
What did the 5 fingers say to the face?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7CBwX1891A
HaHaHaHa!
by Lord Smackington on Jan 3, 2011 9:31 PM EST up reply actions
Miami only had $8M in Cap room because of other cap holds
Which got them Mike Miller, Udonis Haslem, and Joel Anthony…pretty sure everyone else on the team is either a rookie or a vet minimum contract (which you can sign and exceed the cap, which is why they’re currently $8M over).
Basically my thinking is threefold:
1) Miami’s concentrated greatness will beat better “teams” like Boston, Orlando, LA and San Antonio.
2) Amar’e, CP3, and Melo can equal Lebron, Wade and Bosh as the Core
3) Gallo (or Chandler), Landry, Turiaf, DWTDD and Ish Smith(or similar) can beat Mike Miller, Haslem and Joel Anthony as the key role players.
…The rest of both squads are just vet minimum players who should about equal each other out.
Sounds like you prefer the “great team” approach, and this suggested Knicks sqaud is actually a lot closer to that than Miami. it will be interesting to see how this year’s playoffs turn out…but if my money were at stake I wouldn’t bet against Miami. Also this summer will likely be the last time we have cap space (other than exceptions) for the remainder of the Amar’e contract…so whatever direction we take, our core team won’t change much after next year except maybe via trades.
In case you’re interested, here are the details on Miami’s Cap Space after signing the big 3.
LeBron James – $14,500,000
Chris Bosh – $14,500,000
Dwyane Wade – $14,200,000
James Jones – $1,544,172 (waived)
Joel Anthony – $1,029,389 (cap hold)
Mario Chalmers – $854,389
Seven roster charges = $473,604 * 7 = $3,315,228
= $49,943,178
= $8,100,822 in cap room.
by Left Coast Cowboy on Jan 3, 2011 4:57 PM EST up reply actions
Saying that Miami has raised the bar and that they're already destined for a championship
is kind of short-sighted I think. They haven’t won any playoff series’ yet; for all we know one of the 3 can get injured and then we will see how much it sucks to have no bench for depth. Either way, I think all this talk of blockbuster trades is just a semi-panic move. At the beginning of the summer NOONE was thinking of contending for a championship this year. We should get to the playoffs this season, see if we can make some noise, and assess the team in the summer rather than shaking things up before they got a chance to settle down from this summer.
Donnie's bout to beat the NBA game like he got a cheat code
I see the Trifuckta point
But my point is the Knicks are already built in such a way where it won’t work here. Yes, the idea of Amar’e/Melo/Paul could certainly contend with Miami or Boston as it’s definitely on the same talent level. But Miami was intending to build with 3 superstars… by keeping the big 3 salaries low they still have money to sign guys. I thought they were slightly higher! This now means that just NY bringing Carmelo and his extension… shit, we would be paying TWO guys the same price Miami was paying for THREE!
I mean, you can post all you want how we can get 3 guys like they have, but the fact remains that it would still handcuff us in a major way. And further, like you pointed out, when we PLAY the teams of 3… it’s going to be about our depth since our Big 3 will have to handle their Big 3. Our depth WON’T be as good because we will not have as much money and have to fill more positions. And unfortunately, Miami might be over the ca due to an exemption from losing Udonis Haslem.
Finally dude… not only do we have two (or 3 with CP3) super sized contracts… but they will be towards the beginning or middle of their contract. We’re talking about committing nearly $57mil (currently $1Mil less than the salary cap itself btw) for 3 guys for at least 2 years. Man, it’s just gonna have to be in some video game and not in real life. Sorry.
"Madison Square Garden is the ultimate basketball stage. That's where I belong. That's where I live. That's the home of the New York Knicks." - Amar'e Stoudemire
by Chris Child's Fist on Jan 3, 2011 8:57 PM EST up reply actions
We've got enough super stars already
One may be all we need. Felton and Chandler are good enough.We don’t have to break the bank and figure out how to shoehorn in two more max contracts with absolutely no flexibility. Let’s take a real close look at Greg Oden or another premium big this summer. if Oden is healthy he could be all we need to put us over the top.
The Landryman Can
This Trade Will Never Happen:
This trade has a 0% chance of happening. The Knicks will not consider it, let alone “desperately” pursue it because it is beyond preposterous. I will elaborate below:
Houston:
I don’t see why Houston would do it. You argue they need youth in the frontcourt, yet they trade Jordan Hill, who is logging 18 minutes a game, for 2 scrubs who don’t play at all. They trade an expiring contract (Jeffries) for an awful one (Harrington). And yet, they give a 1st round pick. So basically, they are trading a young rotation player, an expiring contract, and a 1st round pick for two benchwarmers (granted that they have potential, but so does Hill), and an awful contract.
Let’s return to your reasons of why Houston does this trade:
1.They need help at the 4 and 5, yet they trade a big (Hill). Randolph and Mozgov do not help them up front. If they do provide such help, why do the Knicks need front court help (note all the Gasol talk). It’s because they are not getting it done right now. They do not play at all, while Hill does. It seems like getting rid of Hill for these guys is counter-intuitive.
[Harrington is not a 5, rather a 3 or a 4. He will help up front to an extent, but his contract actually makes the Rockets worse.]
2. They take on “manageable contracts.” Big Al is set to make $7.6 million during the 2014-2015 season. That’s 7 million dollars for a role player for the next 5 years. I don’t believe how that is “manageable.” Also, getting rid of Jeffries does not bring the Rockets “significant upside.” He’s like Edy Curry, no future with his current team. But Jeffries remains an asset. He is a solid defender and can be traded at the deadline to a championship contender. Worse case scenario: he gets bought out or rides the pine the rest of the season. Both of those are not awful for the Rockets, hence I don’t see where the upside is.
3. They don’t give up anything? What about the first pick they are donating to Denver? Who are they getting that’s worth a 1st round pick? Yeah, Randolph may be worth one, but they’re still losing more assets than they are gaining. They should get a 1st round pick from this deal even if it’s just for taking on Big Al’s contract.
New Orleans:
Let’s return to your reasons of why New Orleans does this trade:
1. “The writing’s on the wall.” They can always do a trade of Paul next year. He’s not expiring like Melo, so they have another year to consider their options with him or try to convince him to resign (even though the chances of that are minimal). Still, they are not yet at the desperate phase to trade Paul.
2. That it is not enough of a return for arguably the best point guard in the game. Felton is having a superb year with New York, but how will that success translate to New Orleans? They do not run the Knicks offense and we all know that Felton’’s numbers before he came to New York were just a little better than pedestrian-looking. Also, Chandler is going to be a RFA, meaning they may have to shell out $8-10 million to keep him. If they keep him, then they will not save any money in the future from this deal (as Chandler’s $8-10 mil and Felton’s $7.5 mil may actually come out to more than the $16.4 mil that Paul is owed). And if they choose to let Chandler go, then all they have to show for Paul is Felton, an inferior guard, and Azubike, who will probably (should be) be let go next offseason. Therefore, the Hornets are actually getting a potentially horrific return for a top 3 point guard.
3. Money (see above). If they keep Chandler, then they only save money this year. If not, it’s a horrible trade.
4. They control Paul for another year, so they are not desperate yet. At all.
Denver:
Let’s return to your reasons of why Denver does this trade:
1. Let me get this straight: Plan C for Denver is to trade Carmelo Anthony, a top NBA player, for 2 first round picks, two expiring contracts (who will never play for them this season anyway), and Jordan Hill. You understand that right now the Nets are offering 2 picks, Derrick Favors (a potential packed rookie who is actually playing and showing his potential), Devin Harris (a former all-star), Anthony Morrow (a solid role player), and expiring contracts. That is a significant drop from Plan B to Plan C (basically losing Favors, Harris, Morrow for Hill).
Denver will not donate Carmelo to any team. If they were going to consider it, they would not be haggling with New Jersey trying to get them to take on Al Harrington’s contract. Obviously Denver has been put into a tough spot, where Anthony has all the leverage. They will want to get a return for him, but they want a fair one. And frankly, two 1st rounders and Jordan Hill is nothing. If that’s the best they can do, then they will ride it out with Melo and pray that they get a miracle in negotiations this offseason.
As you can see, every team (besides the Knicks) in this deal loses. It makes no sense for any team to consider this trade. Lastly, no team will enter into a deal when one team is such a clear winner. The Knicks get a top 3 point guard and a top 3 small forward for Wilson Chandler, Felton, expiring contracts (Curry, Azubike), two benchwarmers who have potential (Mozgov, Randolph), and a single 1st round pick. Oh, and two second rounders. A trade like this would result in three GM’s getting fired and Donnie receiving a lifetime contract. And rightfully so.
Finally, I forgot to change my signature before I started writing this post and I don’t want to rewrite all of this, so it is what it is.
Left Coast Cowboy, I would love to discuss and hear any additional reasons you have for why this trade makes sense for all teams.
Thanks :)
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