While the NBA's away, how about St. John's hoops?
Basketball in MSG still exists, and SB Nation has an excellent blog for it. Here is a guest post from the proprietor of said blog. -Seth
Good afternoon, all. I'm Pico on SB Nation's St. John's blog, Rumble in the Garden, chronicling the Red Storm's attempts to return to prominence in the college hoops world. We cover Red Storm basketball news, recruiting, with forays into baseball and soccer; I prefer stats to speculation, and we try to be open-minded and intelligent about the game as best we can.
Osborn has been a reader of the site; and he and I discussed my reaching out to you all Posting and Toasting, in need of fast breaks and and-1s with the NBA in Full Lockout Mode. I've seen the #nonba hashtag, I've followed the labor talk from reporters, and I too will miss the Knicks on the court (especially Landry Fields. I love that guy); these are sad days for hoops fans.
So I'm here, guest posting and guest toasting, if you will, to talk about St. John's and our site, Rumble in the Garden.
The site is new at the Rumble URL - we've only been there since January - but the blog is a continuation of my work at a site called The East Coast Bias, which I'd written for 4+ years.
The Rumble isn't just me. We have a pair of talented writers, some future contributors, and are slowly growing as a reader community. But we'd love to add more smart, passionate and engaged hoops fans, more people, more active commenters, more people with questions about the college game.
But this week, that other team that spends time in Madison Square Garden gets back onto the floor above Penn Station to try and bring that Rumble back to Manhattan.
That other team, St. John's, is piloted by the wholly quotable, erudite, and likeable second year coach Steve Lavin. He used to coach at UCLA until they ran him out with LA pitchforks (which are enhanced with silicone and sunshine). Sometimes, they call him the Blagojevich of College Hoops, despite his former UCLA players' love of him. Even Baron Davis has come by St. John's to visit and help Lav recruit a point guard - the same Baron Davis who was famously quoted as saying, "we should have a banner up there: the only team to make the tournament without a coach."
Now, he's landed in New York with his semi-celebrity wife (she's a bit-part TV actress) and a great energy. The students have taken well to him, renaming the student section "Lavinwood."
He wears Air Force Ones with a suit for comfort (photo at right: Getty Images, Chris Trotman). He's not quite Walt Clyde Frazier, but the quotable Lavin's quips and synonyms are lovingly honored by our Lavin Lines page (which is still being built out and will be regularly updated).
Steve Lavin's major skill is recruiting, and during his first season, the Lav recruited what was considered the third-best recruiting class in the nation, despite lacking some beef and having no instant-impact players like Kentucky.
Not only are the recruited players talented, but they have incredible names. They're listed below with links to their preseason profiles on Rumble in the Garden; the guesses to what they would do are from junior college stats when available and guess based on video I'd seen on players in games (though often All-Star games, which don't feature defense):
- forward God`sgift Achiuwa (from junior college)
- forward Maurice "Moe" Harkless
- guard/ forward Sir`Dominic Pointer
- guard D`Angelo Harrison
- guard Nurideen Lindsey (from junior college)
- guard Phil Greene
There were three other great names - Amir Garrett, Jakarr Sampson, and Norvel Pelle - but all three were found ineligible by the NCAA. They didn't have the right grades in the right courses, and the NCAA thought the Johnnies were trying to manipulate the system. There was a chance they could be eligible in December, but right now it's looking like none of the three are coming back to the Red Storm fold.
You may count the number of recruits/ new players and ask, how many players are there on a college roster again?
There should be thirteen. But the past few years of roster mismanagement, transfers, and a group of players in the same graduating class has left St. John's with one returnee. One. And he (Malik Stith) barely played last year.
Suffice to say, this is an interesting year and a team with a learning curve. They have two big men. Four players are logging 32+ out of 40 minutes. Right now, they can't shoot very well outside of 5 feet. The defense is a work in progress (but prone to bursts of steals and fast break buckets). And what you see today from the squad won't be what you see in February.
The young Johnnies were highly ranked as a class for a reason. You can see the potential oozing out of Moe Harkless and Achiuwa and Lindsey - they are fast and agile. Each has issues with his game to improve on, but all three have talents... possibly NBA-translatable talents.
Tomorrow, St. John's faces off against Arizona in the 2K Sports Classic benefiting Coaches vs. Cancer. We have a quick preview of the Coaches vs Cancer Tournament, and will be doing game preview notes by tomorrow morning.
The Garden games are the semifinals of a tournament... whose opening rounds don't count toward advancement. A little silly, I know, but it's part of the college game. Why? Because a few years ago, some school called Gardner-Webb beat Kentucky, and made it to the semifinals in New York. That's a ticketing disaster; Kentucky rolls deep with fans and not having them means lint in the pockets.
But that uncertainty is one of the joys of the college game. One day, even the most talented kids have an off night and lay a turd on the court, taking an L they really, really shouldn't have.
And sometimes, a team that was written off pulls out a win they shouldn't have. Last year, St. John's was the definition of the latter category in late January/ February, with wins over Duke, Connecticut, and Pittsburgh, all top-10 ranked squads at the time who received high seeds in the NCAA Tournament.
I know. It's not the same as Knicks basketball. There's no organ music hyping up the crowd. Spike and Woody and the rest don't make every St. John's basketball game. But the Red Storm, like the Knicks, are part of the fabric of New York City.
Come check us out at Rumble in the Garden, and if you want to spread the word to other blogs and message boards you know, we ain't gonna hate ya. We welcome good hoops conversation as the team develops into a force in the Big East, and need to spread the word about the site.
If you have questions or comments, find me at the Rumble or email!
Follow the Rumble on Facebook + Follow on Twitter: Rumble in the Garden (stories + game tweets only) | Pico | Tim | Quinn
80 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
But I will ask a question.
What channel do their games normally air on?
Stainer of mountaintops.
by Chairman Meow on Nov 16, 2011 3:52 PM EST up reply actions
Wha...?
Haha!
At least, I hope you’re joking. And I don’t say that as a St. John’s partisan, but as a college b-ball fan. I hope you watch them grow (I really like Dave from the On the Banks blog, who does Rutgers hoops), but they’re not actually better in any sense of the word! They brought in a really good collection of talent, and have better returning players than St. John’s, for sure.
And St. John’s will be on SNY or an ESPN or ESPN 3. The school has a “STJ-TV” production umbrella that allows all of their games to be on ESPN3.
Rumble in the Garden - St. John's blog with thunderous undertones, on SB Nation | Follow on Facebook | Follow on Twitter
Historically, they're a better school.
1766? How could I not root for that.
Stainer of mountaintops.
by Chairman Meow on Nov 16, 2011 4:22 PM EST up reply actions
My only problem with this suggestion is that I am a Cuse fan.
But i will play along.
I mean, obviously there are going to be a lot of Syracuse fans, and I suppose Rutgers as well.
But for those of you who don’t have any allegiance to a particular team, St. John’s is where it’s at (plus there’s the Madison Square Garden correlation).
I just hope there aren’t too many Seton Hall fans out there. Holy mother of God do I hate Seton hall.
Since the news broke Monday that there probably won't be a season
I’ve decided I’m gonna start paying attention to St. John’s. This post was exactly what I was looking for!
Well, I might stop by when my NBA withdrawal gets really bad.
But once I hear any of the following quips…
College is so much better than pro because:
-College players play for love of the game, not money
-NBA doesn’t play any defense
I’m gone.
SPEND ON BIGS
by StarksMiddleFinger on Nov 16, 2011 4:07 PM EST reply actions
.... because people who say those things have obviously never watched the NBA beyond the All Star Game.
SPEND ON BIGS
by StarksMiddleFinger on Nov 16, 2011 4:08 PM EST up reply actions
It's easy to think there's more defense in college, but it's just false.
Because the three point line is out farther in the pros, and because dead-eye shooters get promoted to the NBA, defenses are spread out so much more, creating wider gaps between defenders and easier driving lanes. Combine that with the fact that zone is so prevalent in college and the fact that there’s a 35 second shot clock and only 40 minutes of game time, and of course it’s going to seem like there’s more defense in college.
It’s a bullshit fallacy that has been perpetuated by old white guys who hate Kermit Washington, hate the fact that 19 year old athletic kids can and will dominate 30 year old pros from time to time, and decided Ron Artest was the last straw. You want to talk about love of the game? Watch Isiah Thomas dominate on a wonky ass ankle in the playoffs, or watch Dirk Nowitzki in a post-game press conference after a loss.
The size of your paycheck is not inversely correlated with your passion for the game.
by Osborn on Nov 16, 2011 4:24 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
whoa
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
by Rorschach44 on Nov 16, 2011 4:28 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Well said!
Also, it’s just physically impossible for NBA players to give a shit the way college players do when they play more than double the games. I know college athletes have classes, and tests, and social lives, but their schedules for games are just not as rigorous.
This is a point I’ve tried to explain to NBA-haters and nobody believes it. But playing 2 games in 3 nights in New York, then flying to Sacramento and playing a game 2 days later, then playing in LA the next night, to fly to Phoenix in another day takes a toll on the body. At some point, there are gonna be games when a player is going to stand and watch somebody shoot a 3 and not run out to contest. Or they’re going to let somebody run and dunk the ball without chasing them down.
I agree WSD except I watch a lot of college ball and a lot of pro ball
and it is true that a NBA team playing its 4th road game in 5 nights and the back half of a back to back to boot, probably isn’t going to play a whole lot of defense.
But I do also notice that the guys who are most prone to stand and watch a guy shoot an open 3 in the pros tended to do so in college as well.
Also there is a higher degree of certainty in the pros and that causes players to concede some things. For example if you are worn down and you find yourself 12 feet away from Ray Allen and he just caught the ball wide open at the 3 pt line, you will probably concede the shot because the chances that he is gonna miss are small. In college 9 times out of 10 there is not any guarantee, that even if that kid is so wide open that he is the only one in the gym that he is gonna hit that shot.
Perhaps the biggest difference in the college and pro games is that coaches have far more power at the college level. College programs are known by the coaches not really the players since they come and go so quickly. So even star college players have to stay on the right side of the coach. Roy Williams can pull Harrison Barnes from a game for not hustling (as he did last year) and no one said a word to him about it. However if Carmelo Anthony is not hustling back on defense, there really isn’t much D’Antoni can do to penalize him for it. There is too much money invested in Carmelo, and D’Antoni is under too much pressure to win that he cannot afford to bench Carmelo for the entire second half, and risk losing a game to Cleveland for example as a result.
by Robert Curre on Nov 16, 2011 4:54 PM EST up reply actions
All good points
I’m just sticking up for the NBA the way StarksMiddleFinger and Osborn were. Anybody who really watches the NBA knows it’s not the joke that college fans make it out to be. And while I do want to get into college this year, I’m wary of that snobby attitue some college bball fans have
Why Osborn! I actually wanted to go out and hit somebody after this
Good stuff man, actually had me fired up!
by Robert Curre on Nov 16, 2011 4:41 PM EST up reply actions
College players play for the love of the game? Maybe D III guys
Harrison Barnes and Jared Sullinger are playing for draft position. And college players don’t really play more defense than NBA players, there are just more guys in college who can’t really shoot than in the pros.
by Robert Curre on Nov 16, 2011 4:10 PM EST up reply actions
Oh yeah,
Ever hear that one? Disgusting.
SPEND ON BIGS
by StarksMiddleFinger on Nov 16, 2011 4:14 PM EST up reply actions
Those are pretty bad...
& I hear that. Those are easy and false fallbacks. I’m sure someone will say that at some point, but not the staff. At least not anyone who will be there for long!
College hoops definitely has lots of thugs, money going through the wrong hands to the wrong places… I think at this point, only naive people believe those lines. Of course, there are a lot of naive people!
Rumble in the Garden - St. John's blog with thunderous undertones, on SB Nation | Follow on Facebook | Follow on Twitter
Out of market.
I dig the Johnnies, but I’ll stick with my Tigers thank you very much.
"It was one of those good, deep sleeps; you know, the ones where you wake up and a stream of drool is steadily racing down your shirt? Yes, that kind of sleep." -Landry Fields
by Thelonious Dunk on Nov 16, 2011 4:24 PM EST reply actions
i fucks with the red storm
Also I’m pooping and toasting
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
by Rorschach44 on Nov 16, 2011 4:31 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Why would anyone like St. John’s? They weren’t even men enough to keep Men in their team name. If you went to college, you support their team. If you didn’t, you can go watch your high school team or whatever college near you plays at a decently high level.
On the other hand, I actually feel a little bad for Dolan now because he must have been fighting for the players to get a better deal. You know he doesn’t care about spending money.
Well, the point of this was that "whatever college near you plays at a decently high level"
would, for many of us, be St. John’s.
But most of us went to college
And the team sounds terrible, as in worse than Hofstra. It is pretty amusing that there’s someone actually named God’sGift.
Seriously?
They had one of the top three recruiting classes in the entire country this year. Granted that took a hit with the three players declared ineligible. But saying that St. John’s is worse than Hofstra makes it sound like you’ve never watched college basketball in your life.
last time I saw them they were worse
And I meant they currently sound bad based on what is written above
you haven't watched them in a few years then.
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
Maybe 3 years ago
I saw Hofstra play against St. Johns. That’s not exactly the same as “never in my life.”
it might as well be
St Johns was pretty good the past 2 years. Its like watching the Knicks 3 years ago, saying they suck now because of that and will never ever be good.
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
Yeah that would show I haven't followed the Knicks in years
Not that I never watched the NBA in my whole life. And I said they sounded bad based on what was written, with a new team and coach. Past two years is irrelevant.
I second Joamiq's "seriously?"
not only that but the humorous God’s Gift is a beast, one that could probably break you in half and use your bones as dental floss…plus he’s good at basketball.
I found Carmen SanDiego! Guess Where? Go Ahead...That's Right..SanDiego.
www.indiscriminateswag.blogspot.com
by Lord Smackington on Nov 17, 2011 12:51 PM EST up reply actions
Did most of us go to college?
This seems presumptuous. I encourage all NBA fans to root for whoever the fuck they like!
by superturboultra on Nov 23, 2011 11:24 PM EST up reply actions
Seth can you put in a word to have Clyde do the games?
by Robert Curre on Nov 16, 2011 5:02 PM EST up reply actions
Yep Chillin and Grillin while the league makes a decision!
by Robert Curre on Nov 16, 2011 5:05 PM EST up reply actions
College games would be easier for Clyde to do as he calls young players Neophytes
well in college they are all Neophytes!
by Robert Curre on Nov 16, 2011 5:06 PM EST up reply actions
I would pay to see CLyde announce the Johnnies.
Rumble in the Garden - St. John's blog with thunderous undertones, on SB Nation | Follow on Facebook | Follow on Twitter
Hey there, picodulce!
Just tell me where to sign, I’m in! Now, by that, I don’t necessarily mean I’ll be a regular commenter or anything on Rumble in the Garden, but I might still read. I’m gonna need some kind of basketball to fulfill me without the NBA, and St. John’s is the closest thing to the Knicks, in my opinion.
Been looking for a way to slowly get into the team, and those player and team previews you linked are most helpful! Thanks!
They play tomorrow against Arizona, a ranked team.
They’re very, very likely to lose that game due to inexperience and whatnot, but this year’s St. John’s squad is a very likable one. Also, their biggest player, whose name is God’sGift, is actually very good, so broadcasts are an absolute riot.
Unless it's on ESPN
I probably won’t get a chance to watch their games. Unless there are online streams. But I’m at school out in PA so there aren’t any NY-related stations
it's on ESPN
So you’re golden.
Actually almost all of their games are on ESPN or ESPN’s online arm, so you can follow them.
Rumble in the Garden - St. John's blog with thunderous undertones, on SB Nation | Follow on Facebook | Follow on Twitter
I think there's actually a ticket link...
… on the Rumble site. And for the early season on-campus games, I think there are tix available.
Rumble in the Garden - St. John's blog with thunderous undertones, on SB Nation | Follow on Facebook | Follow on Twitter
God's Gift
Too bad God Shamgod didn’t have a son. They both could have been at St’ Johns and you could have had God passes to God’s gift and he lays it up and in.
by Robert Curre on Nov 16, 2011 5:01 PM EST up reply actions
believe it or not...
God Shammgod has a son. Named God Shammgod. http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/blog/the_dagger/post/God-Shammgod-s-unforgettable-name-is-still-bring He’s at St. Ray’s HS.
That’s a God complex right there.
Rumble in the Garden - St. John's blog with thunderous undertones, on SB Nation | Follow on Facebook | Follow on Twitter
Please legalize gay marriage
Please make these men fall in love.
Thank you!
by superturboultra on Nov 23, 2011 11:28 PM EST up reply actions
I caught most of the game
and the Johnnies were pretty impressive against a stacked Arizona squid. They were ahead until pretty late in the game and they’ve got some terrific young athletes. Lavin has them playing their asses off. Problem for them is that they only go 7 deep and by the end of the game they had to be gassed. Especially because of the aggressive type of high energy defense they were forced to play after Arizona kept sinking bombs over their zone
Anyway, I kind of ripped Lavin in a previous comment, especially about his late game management skills. While they did let this one slip away, I don’t know what else he could have done. They were just outmanned by a better squid, but not all that much better. I think the Red Guys will be an NCAA tournament team..
Hold up you ripped a coach about his late game management skills?
What was D’Antoni in the house?
by Robert Curre on Nov 22, 2011 10:59 AM EST up reply actions
not this year
But I do think they’re exciting, have a lot of potential.
Rumble in the Garden - St. John's blog with thunderous undertones, on SB Nation | Follow on Facebook | Follow on Twitter
I think we shouldn't attach to one team....
I’m not a St. Johns fan but ill root for them when they go against anyone but my team….
I've been pretty much uninterested in college athletics my whole life
With the exception of having a soft spot for St. John’s. Why? I don’t know, but when I was in high school and St. John’s with Mark Jackson at the point and Chris Mullin were battling Ewing and Georgetown, I got into that shit. And when Jackson got to the Knicks that just kind of kept it going. I always wanted Mullin to come home to play for the Knicks throughout his career.
So yeah, I will probably pay a little lockout attention to the Red Storm, but didn’t they just used to be the Redmen?
Get The Frickin' Rebound
yes
it’s insensitive or some shit, but it’s okay for the Washington Redskins and Cleveland Indians. Colgate Red Raiders changed their name around the same time.
Syracuse also used to have a Native American mascot but changed it to a Roman and then the round orange.
Just because some teams are dicks
Doesn’t mean all teams have to be.
by superturboultra on Nov 23, 2011 11:30 PM EST up reply actions
red storm!!!!!!!!!
i read your site picodulce, it’s just pretty quite over there. don’t worry, some of us go for the red storm
"it's not easy being green"-kermit the frog
"we the mets are an improved ball club, now we lose in extra innings"-casy stengel
i cant spell a nosebleed
The Official Seinfeld Gif-Man of GGN!!!!!!!!
i'm a moderator for GGN. I will accept tribute.
hell yea
Johnnies are gonna be relevant this tear. Got some real players on that squad. They might not fully gel til next year, but Lavin finally got them some ballers.
"But when he saw it, he just put his hands up and they couldn’t give it to him. It just fell to the ground, I-I don’t, you know … So, that showed me he had great experience..." - Jeff Van Gundy
by Anthony Bonner's Subpoena on Nov 16, 2011 9:01 PM EST reply actions
Yeah, it's really frustrating that Achiuwa isn't a sophmore instead of a junior.
He’s going to be really good next year, but if he still had two years, they would be extremely dangerous with him in 2013-2014.
Some thoughts from a longtime Lavin observer
As a UCLA fan I got to watch Lavin do his thing for a long time. He is a great recruiter and a classy guy, but I think he was one of the worst game coaches I have ever seen.
In one contest against a much more highly ranked and formidable Oregon team the Bruins were amazingly ahead towards the end. The athletically superior Bruins had gotten the lead by gambling on defense and attacking the rim and fast breaking as much as possible. But then with a comfortable 11 point lead and less than 4 minutes to play Lavin decided it was time to slow things down. Uh oh, I thought, this could be trouble. We ended up losing by ten.
In the end, top recruits stopped coming to UCLA because not enough players were making it through to the next level under Lavin’s tutelage. Even Luke Walton, the son of one of the most legendary Bruins of all time, decided to play in Arizona to avoid Lavin.
I hope he has gotten better, because like I said, he is a very classy and likable guy. I know a lot of other UCLA fans feel the same way about him as I do. Good :luck Saint John fans, you are probably gonna need it.
he's gotten better.
He also knows to hire tactical help and sounding boards, hence the coaching staff including Gene Keady and the highly respected Mike Dunlap. & to be fair, what he and that crew did with last year’s team was remarkable. They couldn’t score, they weren’t that great at defending, and they were boring.
Lavin’s new scheme made them a little better (it took 8-10 games), but statistically, they were much the same team. They just turned those losses into wins, played the two guys who could score a LOT, and turned the ball over less. That was the mark of some better coaching than the Red Storm had had, for sure.
We’ll see how it turns out! Good luck to UCLA – tough stretch last couple of games, but they’ll be better.
Rumble in the Garden - St. John's blog with thunderous undertones, on SB Nation | Follow on Facebook | Follow on Twitter
I root for the Big East in general, Panthers 1st and foremost, Texas teams
and never, EVER, root for Notre Dame. ever. The Johnnies were pretty feisty last year so here’s hoping you guys get over the hump. Except when the Panthers come to town. Looks like we have a couple guard heavy teams that should make for some interesting battles. Good luck to ya.
For some reason it never occurred to me to look for a St. John's bball blog on SB Nation
Joining it now.
thanks!
Rumble in the Garden - St. John's blog with thunderous undertones, on SB Nation | Follow on Facebook | Follow on Twitter
Rumble is a nice cozy spot
I like to check in time to time, St Johns is actually the perfect compliment to the Knicks in my opinion.
I found Carmen SanDiego! Guess Where? Go Ahead...That's Right..SanDiego.
www.indiscriminateswag.blogspot.com
by Lord Smackington on Nov 17, 2011 12:54 PM EST reply actions
in honor of this suggestion and plan to wear the same sweater everytime St. John's has a game
and wear white high tops with my suits!
I hate the sneakers with a suit look.
“Eh, I liked her…”
“What was wrong with her?”
“Nothing, nothing!”
“Steve…”
“OK, OK, she goes under the pick! She’s a picker downer!”
by superturboultra on Nov 23, 2011 11:37 PM EST up reply actions
i actually have a close family friend who i believe is a recruiter for St. Johns
im a huge fan of Florida but i can mess with the Johnnies
by blackhova on Nov 18, 2011 11:28 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Lil Rough road for the johnies but they looked terrible last night T A&M
Gotta shore up that shooting or at least hit one of those gazillion FT’s
ST John's
can be good again and quicky but they need to hit NY HARD and bulid their talent level over a 1-2 year period
okay i have cerebral palsy arthris and chronic fatigue as well i have a great life and loveing folks some days are better than other days i got a make-a-wish in 2001 and saw my favorite team the broncos it was the trip of a lifetime i wish everyone couild have gotten to enjoy that with me i know some of u hate the broncos and that okay but i bleed organ and bule for my mnr fans but i bleed orange and blue denver will rise again resident broncos fan for every blog resident broncos for stampede bule thanks shvd98z24 real name jeremy woodard nettleton high class of 02 yes i am a raider Stay humble in victory respect all fear none and finish larry soprano

by 
























