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Around SBN: Bob Sapp Denies Throwing Fights

Making a Point

Michael Jordan is widely considered the greatest player in NBA history.  Yet he needed a lot of help to win his titles and that help cost money. Somewhere here, I forget who so forgive me, said that the Knicks need a Luc Longley type to man the Center position and I agree. A big man with decent skills who can play effective defense in the paint and rebound would help the Knicks immensely.  However that person failed to mention that when the Bulls acquired Longley to play with the greatest player of all time, it required them to come up with 10 million a year for him.  Alongside Longley the Bulls had Dennis Rodman. Now Longley, Rodman, and Wil Perdue were extremely effective at defending the paint and controlling the boards during the Bulls 3peat. The price tag for that level of interior defense and rebounding; 22 million dollars. The Bulls spent 22 million dollars to support the greatest player in NBA history with enough interior defense and rebounding to win. In addition to those guys the Bulls also had a do everything 6th man in Toni Kukoc. Kukoc played big minutes for the Bulls and was a great fill in the blanks guy. The Bulls needed someone to score, Kukoc got them 20 points, they needed a facilitator Kukoc would get assists, and on the rare occasion that they needed rebounding Kukoc even could go get those. The price tag for Kukoc in 1996 was 9 million. The Bulls spent 31 million on role players to support the greatest player of all time. I have not even gone into what they paid Scottie Pippen as the greatest wing man of all time.




Star-divide

My point is this, if the greatest player of all time needed his organization to spent big money on role players to provide defense rebounding and help off the bench, why do so many people today think that today's stars can win titles with supporting cast of low budget cast offs.  To win titles with stars you have to surround them with a considerable amount of talented role players. Talented role players cost money.  If the Miami Heat's experience this past season taught us anything it should have been that there are not any short cuts to a championship.  Getting three star players, paying them big money and then filling out your roster with a bunch of has beens or never beens will not win you a title, even if it can win you a still very flawed and weak eastern conference.

 

Now I want you to look objectively at the Knicks. This is a team that has problems with interior defense and rebounding. It is also a team that lacks depth.  These are real issues that need to be addressed and cannot be addressed on the cheap if this team hopes to go anywhere.  When you have a team whose interior defense routinely makes guys like Samardo Samuels look like the second coming of Moses Malone and who is so starved for depth that any injury has them playing marginal NBA talent at best like Jared Jeffries or Roger Mason Jr. big minutes in playoff games, then any reasonably sane GM should realize that these are areas that need to be addressed. 

 

I understand the allure of three stars playing in New York is intoxicating to the media and the fans. However, it seems quite clear to me that the dream of putting 3 stars together in New York and winning championships with them died when the Knicks had to trade for Carmelo Anthony and give up several young developing assets to get him. By saying that I am not saying that the Knicks should not have traded for Anthony, but that for every action there is a reaction. I have been harping on the fact that the Knicks need a big man. Well the best way to get a long term solution at Center cheap, is to get a young big man and then invest the three to four years on average that it takes for him to develop. The Lakers drafted Bynum in 2005 and he really didn't begin to pay dividends for them on a consistent basis until 2008, the same could be said for Kendrick Perkins. Well the Knicks had to give up a young cheap big in Mozgov to get Anthony at the time he had just started to give them productive minutes. Had the Knicks been able to keep Mozgov, while getting Anthony, and allow the big Russian kid to continue to develop, then maybe by the time the summer of 2012 the Knicks would have a solid answer at Center and would be free to spend the cap money elsewhere. Think about how the Knicks roster outlook would be different in 2012 if they had Anthony a young 7'1 265lbs big ready to man the middle with potentially two other young bigs developing right behind him. But in 2012 Harrellson and Jordan will probably still be two years away from being able to consistently handle the Center position and therefore a good big man will need to be found to do the job while they continue to learn. Not to mention that players like Gallinari, Chandler and even Anthony Randolph may have developed to the point that they could give the Knicks stars high quality support off the bench.

 

Well we will see what happens, while I predict that if Paul is out there the allure of 3 stars will be too much to ignore, I wonder if getting 3 stars is the best basketball move.

 

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Thanks I am trying! :-)

But seriously dude, I am trying to save myself from breaking my television when our team complete with our shiny new stud point guard loses to Cleveland while giving up 115 points because Harangody and Samuels are making like Bill Walton and Moses Malone in their primes and we end up giving up 70 points in the paint to go along with 33 second chance points.

by Robert Curre on Nov 7, 2011 4:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Broken record or not, I always have and will continue to agree with you on this point.

Chris Paul would be a glamorous splash to make, but the move that brings us closer to a championship is a legitimate big man. That’s the only position I’d be willing to overpay for.

Bulls Dynasty – y’know what they didn’t have? An elite point guard.
Y’know what they did have? Legitimate big men.

Lakers Dynasties in the 21st century – y’know what they didn’t have? An elite point guard
Y’know what they did have? Legitimate big men.

Just read my signature.

SPEND ON BIGS

by StarksMiddleFinger on Nov 7, 2011 4:59 PM EST reply actions  

Think about Paul's game and how he can manipulate defenses...

How he sets them up and breaks them down. Think about how far he’s carried that New Orleans team.

Now think about think about what he could do alongside to devastating scorers like Melo and Amare. Think about the open shots he could create for them. Think about the open shots they could create for him. Think about the open shots everybody else gets.

You cry about depth. Think about DWTDD and Poops and Shump (even if all he gives is perimeter defense and break-away dunks). Think about bigs like Turiaf and Jordan and Harrelson knowing and playing within their roles to be physical presences on both ends. Think about having at least 2 out of the 3 stars on the court at all times to run the offense through.

Think about the positive influence Paul’s game would have on guys like TD and Shump.

Think about the points we could put up… easily.

Chris Paul would set this whole freakin thing free.

by Crackback on Nov 7, 2011 5:00 PM EST reply actions  

Think about Chris Paul getting beat off dribble and the Knicks giving up easy baskets

Think about Tyler hansbrough scoring at will in the post. Think about the Knicks giving up offensive rebound after offensive rebound. Think about the fact that to have the money to sign Paul to a max deal we will have to decline TD’s option and he will be playing in Chicago. Think about all the points in the paint we will give up while two youngsters learn how to play Center because there will not be any money to sign a legit vet. Turiaf will not be here, Miami will give him a MLE to go there.

Yes three stars could score some points, sure they could. But if you cannot defend the paint, if you cannot rebound, and an injury to anyone has guys like Jeffries or Roger mason Jr. playing 30 minutes you are not going to do much in the NBA sure you will score 120 a game but you will give up 125!

by Robert Curre on Nov 7, 2011 5:15 PM EST up reply actions  

see crackback you are selling me fantasies dude and I am not buying

because I have seen the reality. I saw he Knicks give up offensive board after offensive board. I saw Big men who began the season in the D-League scoring at will in the post against us. I saw us give up 72 points in the paint to the Cleveland Cavaliers. I saw Jared Jeffries, Roger Mason Jr. and Bill Walker playing big minutes in playoff games because there was no one better to put on the floor.

So I am not buying what you are selling dude. Remember Amare+ Carmelo+ Roster Filler = Championship. You were wrong dude, way wrong. And instead of realizing that maybe we need to build a team and fill in some of these damn holes in our roster that are big enough to drive a truck through, you and others want to compound the problem by throwing money at another big name. Primarily because he made a toast, probably when he was drunk off his ass about coming here and joining forces with Carmelo and Amare. And your argument is about the points we could put up. We had the 3rd highest scoring offense in the damn league without Paul. We could stop people or grab rebounds and 6’1 point guards do not control the paint or the boards in a big man’s league. Offense may be a little man’s game but if you are gonna win games you need quality big men to play defense and grab rebounds.

by Robert Curre on Nov 7, 2011 5:24 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Remember Amare+ Carmelo+ Roster Filler = Championship. You were wrong dude, way wrong.

You serious? Do you remember Stat and Billups being sidelined with injuries in the playoffs? How far were the Mavs going without Dirk? The Heat without Wade and Bosh? The Celtics without Rondo and Garnette? The Lakers without Gasol and Bynum?

How far did the deepest deep Denver Nuggets go?

by Crackback on Nov 7, 2011 7:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Bad example with the Nuggets

They had a deliberately indifferent owner who when he had has one moment in 30 years to pursue a a title told his front office
“cut costs” “cut costs”

So the Nuggets watched their singular moment of destiny pass by with no chance to pursue it.

Enos Stan “frikkin married WalMart money” Kroenke

Only slightly less worse than Donald “Slumlord” Sterling

"Man, I've got vision and the rest of the world wears bifocals."
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
"Franchise Tag: Enabling Incompetent Owners to remain imcompetent"
"Contenders do; pretenders give excuses why they did not"
"Yes everybody does have an opinion; but that does not make your opinion any less wrong"
"That ought to stop your bitchin"
"And, please remember, ignorance is not a defense"

by the word on Nov 7, 2011 8:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Also known as Short Arm Stan

and Crocodile Arm Kroenke

"Man, I've got vision and the rest of the world wears bifocals."
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
"Franchise Tag: Enabling Incompetent Owners to remain imcompetent"
"Contenders do; pretenders give excuses why they did not"
"Yes everybody does have an opinion; but that does not make your opinion any less wrong"
"That ought to stop your bitchin"
"And, please remember, ignorance is not a defense"

by the word on Nov 7, 2011 8:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Western Conference finals

And you are making excuses. Because when you made the silly statement about Stat + Melo and Roster filler, I pointed out to you then what happens if someone gets injured. In real NBA basketball players get injured and can’t play. The Mavs won the title with their second leading scorer in street clothes, sitting next to their starting shooting guard, and their back up Center (who averaged 24 minutes a game in the playoffs) sitting on the bench in street clothes after game 2.

Maybe Carmelo’s 42 points would have gotten us over the top in game two if we hadn’t traded away all the potential help he could have had to get him. That is not a criticism of the trade, but rather a point to suggest that instead of getting Carmelo another high priced playmate, maybe we should get him and STAT some more help on the roster.

And by the way the Celtics won a playoff series with no KG, and Rondo playing on one fucking leg! Why because they had some players who could come off the bench and help!

by Robert Curre on Nov 8, 2011 4:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Lord Currence

You are correct about getting talented role players to win NBA Championships.
Just keep on reading the meaning of team: A collection of people coming to the same goal.

What I do disagree about is saying Michael Jordan is the greatest basketball player to ever play.
Thats bullshit and a joke.
If you ask the fifty top players that voted on this topic. They will tell you different. It was O.Robertson whom the top fifty agreed upon.
I also ask you this question. Did you ever hear M.Jordan say he is the greatest player ever to play the game?
The answer to that question is no also.
M.Jordan’s game speaks for itself.
So does B.Russell, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Wilt Chamberlain, Hakeem Olijawan, Pete Mavarich and Opps! Oscar Robertson in case you forgot.

by Dziedzic on Nov 8, 2011 9:58 AM EST reply actions  

MJ was the best guard

But shooting guards don’t contribute as many wins as big guys do.

Centers and PGs are actually similar in many ways. They both get your other guys open shots, which makes everyone else better. Centers have a much larger role in defense, though. Since there aren’t any dominant centers now (Dwight Howard is closest but he’s a lousy passer and robotic in the post, which negates his dominance a bit), there are some point guards who have larger impacts.

Steve Nash, despite being bad defensively, had the best +/- in the league. Without him, the Suns have no one to pass to them, and they are not able to create their own shots.

Dirk’s not a center, but he has the height to be dominant offensively. No one can guard him, so any time the other guys can’t score, Dirk can save them with a high percentage shot.

by mindfeck on Nov 8, 2011 10:43 AM EST up reply actions  

mindFECK

Your right M.Jordan is the best SG if you are going by position.
His defense was also superb as a SG. J.West/K.Bryant are righ behind him at the position.

There is no definitive number one player of alltime.
Maybe Oscar Robertson based on the the top fifty voting him the best all around player.
Oh by the way he was a PG.
Now, now don’t get crazy with your Magic Johnson bullshit as the best.
Because even Magic voted for Oscar. Deal with facts please.
Oh by the way with your bullshit S.Nash crap.
He was/is very one dimensional.
S.Nash could not lace up J.Stocktin’s sneakers. It is not even close.
Dirk is a joke. at PF. He does not even make the top five at PF.
K.McHale/T.Duncan/E.Hayes/K.Malone/K.Garnett

Bye- bye! Keep on Rooting for the Cavaliers.

by Dziedzic on Nov 8, 2011 4:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Kobe is not right behind him

Jordan >>> Kobe.

You also can’t take player votes to determine the best player. They don’t know who’s best. Michael Jordan thought Kwame Brown was a good idea. Isiah Thomas thought Eddy Curry was one of the best centers.

Dirk’s excellence is not measured only in stats. His team was trash without him, champions with him. No one can guard him and he facilitates the whole offense. The guys you mentioned were better defensively, but overall, it depends on the team they’re on. Most of those guys wouldn’t have won title with the Mavs last season.

by mindfeck on Nov 8, 2011 5:27 PM EST up reply actions  

I never said Jordan was the best player in the league. I said widely considered best player

Russell has 11 rings and when he was old and past his prime coached his damnself to two more championships. When Any player wins 12 rings and coaches himself to three of them I will call him the best damn player in NBA history!

by Robert Curre on Nov 8, 2011 4:25 PM EST up reply actions  

OK For Now

Don’t say in your own bad breath that he is widely considered.

I would love to get you on th ecourt and teach a lesson about how wrong you are with Jordan.
Number one at SG? Yes Wwith West and Bryant close by.

by Dziedzic on Nov 8, 2011 4:43 PM EST up reply actions  

hahah
Don’t say in your own bad breath

Fish Fingers give me a break.

by GAx on Nov 8, 2011 4:44 PM EST up reply actions  

GAx!

I miss your sarcasm baby!

Bring It!

by Dziedzic on Nov 8, 2011 4:48 PM EST up reply actions  

But it was already brought.

I just loved how you sneak in those random jabs in the middle of your wtfisgoingon-posts.

Fish Fingers give me a break.

by GAx on Nov 8, 2011 5:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Random Jabs

Just call me Joe Frazier. Left and right jabs.

by Dziedzic on Nov 9, 2011 11:11 AM EST up reply actions  

Hmmmmmm!

Bring your one demensional game baby.
I play down low like Barkley/Oakley.
I shoot outside like B.King.

by Dziedzic on Nov 9, 2011 11:08 AM EST up reply actions  

You do realize that the HEAT came within two wins of a ring in their FIRST year with major holes in their roster?

If it wasn’t for Dirk’s superhuman performance and LeBron’s extreme collapse, the HEAT would be champs. I think if anything their season proved that the three star formula works. I don’t see how you can argue not getting Paul (or Dwight or Deron) as being the best basketball move, considering you can only either add 2 guys for like $7-9 mil or 3 guys for $5-6 mil for the price of one MAX… the difference between those guys and minimum level (and the potentially new smaller MLE) isn’t large enough to justify not getting an All Star IMO.

Sure, if the argument was would rather have a supporting cast like the Mavs or a third star like Paul, then I could see the argument with either side… but the truth is, there’s really no way we’d be able to build up that many good role players unless we got really lucky with the draft, got some lopsided trades and made some bargain signings… meaning it would take a lot of unlikely events to achieve a supporting cast good enough to justify not going after the third star.

That’s just my opinion, and like everybody else (including you) I’m just pointing it out.

by hvino on Nov 8, 2011 1:20 PM EST reply actions  

Did the heat win no they did not, coming close only counts in horseshoes and handgrenades my

friend. As for Dirk’s superhuman performance, you do realize that he shot 6-21 in game 4 and 9-27 in game 6 both wins for the Mavericks. He didn’t shoot the lights out. As for Lebron’s extreme collapse he averaged 17 pts, 7 assists, and 6 rebounds in the finals, good enough combined with Wade and Bosh’s production for a team with a productive bench to win a series.

As for the difference between a 9 mil guy and a guy at minimum level is the difference between Lamar Odom and Jared Jeffries do you realize that? And the difference in Talent between Odom and Jeffries is far greater than the difference in talnet between Amare and Odom. So I don’t see your point there.

Lastly the point is why this team actually loses games and how you address those reasons. There were not a whole lot of games that the Knicks lost last year where you came away saying “Damn if the Knicks had an elite point guard we win that one.” However there were at least 35 games last season where you came away saying “Damn if the Knicks had a Center who could rebound and protect the paint, and maybe a decent couple of players on the bench, we win this.”

by Robert Curre on Nov 8, 2011 1:38 PM EST up reply actions  

way to choose the most extreme case with Odom and Jefferies. Why not say Brendan Haywood and Shawne Williams, Ron Artest and Matt Barnes and some others?

And let me point out one thing, I would rather have Dwight than Paul.. and there have been many games where we say “man if we had a big man.”

by hvino on Nov 8, 2011 3:44 PM EST up reply actions  

I picked one player making 9 mil and a guy likely to make league minimum

You said there isn’t any real difference between a player making 9 mil and a guy making league min. Well 9 mil gets you Lamar Odom league min gets you Jared Jeffries there is a difference. Just like 9 mil may get you Dalembert (He was offered 9 mil before the lockout if he chooses to stay in Sacramento) and league min gets you Earl Barron. Believe me there is a difference. I can keep going pointing out the difference in talent level that you can purchase in Role players for 9 mil vs. league min all day long if you wish me too. Here’s another 9 mil will probably get you Wilson Chandler, league min will get you Roger Mason Jr.

And Since you mentioned Shawne Williams. Whose a better player Danilo Gallinari or Shawne Williams? One can be had with league min, the other can be had for between 5-9 mil. How good were the Knicks when they had to run Shawne Williams, Jared Jeffries and Roger Mason Jr. against the Celtics in the playoffs for major minutes. Injuries happen in real basketball folks unlike video games. Suppose Amare’s back goes out in pre-game warmups again? Lamar Odom (who could be a free agent by the way in 2012) would do a much better job helping us win games than Jared Jeffries. A Player Like Gallinari would have helped us win game two over Mason Jr. A Center Like Dalembert probably helps us play better defense and rebound better than an Earl Barron, Kwame Brown et. Al who we will be running in here for league min.

But then again what do I know, Chris Paul, Carmelo, and Amare will be so good together they will all average 50 points a game and we will score so many points we will not have to play defense or rebound to win games. Also we will not need a bench because we will be winning every game by 50 points so we could just pick fans out of the stands every home game to play the second half and still win!

by Robert Curre on Nov 8, 2011 4:08 PM EST up reply actions  

They have actual stars

Amar’e and Carmelo and both considerably worse than LeBron and Wade.

by mindfeck on Nov 8, 2011 5:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh no you didn't

Fish Fingers give me a break.

by GAx on Nov 8, 2011 5:34 PM EST up reply actions  

(I know..)

it eats me up inside

Fish Fingers give me a break.

by GAx on Nov 8, 2011 6:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe so

But our team last year was able to beat them, and this year’s better team should do pretty well against them.

by YuckFou on Nov 8, 2011 7:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Predicted Delight Levels in the P&T community

if a certain player gets acquired. Knick management’s thinking is probably similar in many respects to the opinions here on P&T which basically boil down to CP3, Dwight, other.
If we get Dwight I am sure a high percentage of us would be delighted.
Similarly CP3, even with a max contract, probably engenders a high level of delight here.
So after countless hours of poring over these posts and digesting as best as possible the various points of view, here is my estimate of the level of initial delightedness in this community if a certain player were acquired..
Centers
Dwight Howard 93%
Marc Gasol 77%
Emika Okafor 68%
Samuel Dalembert 61%
Greg Odin 26%

And the guards
Chris Paul 75%
 Steve Nash 70%
Baron Davis 27%
Raymond Felton 63%
Deron Williams 67%
OJ Mayo 23%
Monte Ellis 57%
Brandon Roy 53%
Raymond Sessions 63%
DJ Augustin 32%
Jameer Nelson 47%

Please let me know if you disagree with my numbers, or I left anything off in this important subject.

by YuckFou on Nov 8, 2011 6:33 PM EST reply actions   2 recs

Add Mo Williams to the guards

To be honest, I’d be pretty delighted if we signed Mo to a mid-level type deal and then an average or slightly above average center in 2012, instead of a max player

by WSD on Nov 8, 2011 7:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes of course, I forgot Mo

That would merit a pretty high delight level.

by YuckFou on Nov 8, 2011 7:22 PM EST up reply actions  

This is brilliant. It should have been a fan post actually.

C’mon people, let’s rec this thing and turn it greener than a Celtic’s fan choking on envy as they watch the Knicks ascend while their squad succumbs to Father Time.

SPEND ON BIGS

by StarksMiddleFinger on Nov 8, 2011 11:15 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I don't actually agree with the numbers.

I just think it’s a hilariously good idea. Good show, YuckFou.

SPEND ON BIGS

by StarksMiddleFinger on Nov 8, 2011 11:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks

If it gets a few more recs I will repost it as a fan post.

by YuckFou on Nov 9, 2011 2:40 AM EST up reply actions  

To get an idea of how the community feels

People could cut and paste the list and could put their own delightedness estimates plus a number from one to five on how personally delighted they would be if we acquired such and such a player. It could be interesting.

by YuckFou on Nov 9, 2011 3:04 AM EST up reply actions  

I might need some criteria

As to how delightedness is factored

by WSD on Nov 9, 2011 9:59 AM EST up reply actions  

Nice Post

Centers
 Dwight Howard 100% “Flaws” or not, best center
 Marc Gasol 65% I need to see him be more consistant; I’m not a fan, yet, but he could change my opinion as he seems primed to step up
 Emika Okafor 75% I like Okafor better than Gasol when healthy, if the contract could be reasonable…plus I wanna see Oak’s forehead get all wrinkled as he’s writes some crazy shit once people start calling Okafor “Oak”
 Samuel Dalembert 60%
 Greg Odin 10%
 
And the guards
 Chris Paul 70% I like Chris better than Felton and Deron better than Chris, but Chris is a better fit with this team to me and I’d choose Felton for the contract while admitting he wouldn’t be in Chris’ zip code and I’d need some head protection for the occassional slapping-of-the-forhead-what-is-he-doing moment, but he’d get the job done
  Steve Nash 50% you could twist my arm here, but I’m not too sure I’d like it
 Baron Davis 25% Fresh start, chemistry and leadership and he could be a nice fit
 Raymond Felton 75%
 Deron Williams 65%
 OJ Mayo 0% nuff said, besides, isn’t he playing for the Dizzy Laettners?
 Monte Ellis 0% Great player, somewhere else
 Brandon Roy 0% like him, just don’t think we need him
 Raymond Sessions 45% good for the bench
 DJ Augustin 35% not as bad IMO as some people make him out to be
 Jameer Nelson 0% he had Felton’s # on occassion, but, no

by screamedia on Nov 9, 2011 10:17 AM EST up reply actions  

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