This is what's wrong with the Knicks.
by flossy on Dec 30, 2011 5:49 PM EST
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This started out as a comment but turned into a fanpost. What's wrong with the Knicks? In essence, we are an injury-ravaged team with a core built around two one-dimensional, high-scoring forwards whose games are not compatible with one another, and who are supported by the worst starting backcourt and thinnest bench in the league, presided over by a coach who is torn between yet again trying to ram square pegs into his effective-if-very-narrow round hole of an offensive scheme, and not having any other feasible idea of how to make these ill-fitting parts work.
So! Let's begin.
First of all, there is nothing "wrong" with Amar'e, this is the same player that dropped 30+ points in ten straight games last fall. He is one of the most unstoppable finishers and paint scorers in the game and he has a pretty nice mid-range J when he's in rhythm. The problem is he's not, I repeat NOT an ISO player; in order to score like a star he needs to be playing within an offense designed to get him the ball in motion heading toward the basket, preferably without another teammate (and his man) clogging up the paint. We are not doing this. Right now Amar'e is either being used as a decoy to draw a defender away while Melo ISOs, or he is being given the ball while defended 20+ feet from the goal and asked to score while Melo is on the bench and the likes of Josh Harrelson, Mike Bibby et al are the only other "shooters" on the floor.
Melo is maybe the most talented pure scorer and one-on-one player in the NBA, but he's also a ball-stopping isolation specialist and occasional chuckaholic being asked to run an offense, initiate ball movement and be responsible for everyone's success. This will never work. While he can make a nice pass now and then, he's just not that player. Even in the best of circumstances, he and Amar'e are fundamentally incompatible: Amar'e needs a crisp offense in which he is the focus and ball-movement is paramount, Melo needs an offense in which he is the focus and he is allowed to isolate and beat his man one-on-one as often as possible.
Because Melo can be effective farther from the basket and without a true playmaking PG to facilitate, by default his style of offense wins out and Amar'e is rendered more or less useless. And because we have no PG whatsoever or anyone capable of organizing an offense and running a play, the offense by default is a series of Melo isolations while everyone else kind of stands around to see what happens. This works okay when Melo is red hot and stinks like a wet fart when he isn't, especially because for whatever reason when Melo has the ball the other four players seem to forget it's necessary to play basketball or do anything aside from watch the Melo show unfold.
In essence, we gutted the team and sacrificed future flexibility in order to pay $40m/year to two players who are not good defenders and don't even play offense all that well in combination with one another. Hurray!
But wait that's not all! What else is wrong?
Let's see, we're paying $12m to a defensive center who has been totally, and I mean completely left out of the offensive playbook (and Amar'e thinks he has it bad!) while being asked to guard *everyone* since Stat and Melo are bad defenders who need to play 36 mins per night and we can't keep anyone out of the paint because our backcourt is totally, pathetically overmatched and straight-up shook.
Because all our cap is tied up in 3 players the rest of the team is a joke--aside from the Toney and Landry issues, nobody on our bench should be more than an 8-9th man on a decent team at least until Shumpert gets back (and who truly knows what he'll bring--hopefully a lot).
Last but not least, having been given the 17th roster of his coaching tenure that is again ill-equipped to succeed in his preferred style of play, our coach seems like he is finally out of steam. Enough excuses, it's a short preseason for everyone, and we're supposed to have two of the best players in the league on our team (who played together last year!). The Knicks are playing like it's a pick-up game amongst dudes who don't even know much less like each other. As some point, when you supposedly have the best talent in the world, that lack of effort and focus is just unprofessional and it falls on the coach.
The only real hope for this team is if Baron Davis comes back, takes the ball out of Melo's hands, and actually runs an offense that features some set plays, pick and roll, off-ball screens, etc. Amar'e becomes effective again, Melo will still get his, Tyson gets a lob or two, and the offense works well enough to mask our defensive mediocrity. Shump comes back and brings scoring and defense off the bench. Toney Douglas takes his rightful seat on the bench and resumes DWTDD. Landry Fields comes back from the dead in the presence of a PG who can actually do more than chuck shots and/or watch Melo chuck shots.
I hate to say it but if B-Diddy isn't the answer this team is proper fucked. Melo as PG is not going to work, and so far it seems like either D'Antoni has no idea what else to do or the team is just tuning him out. Davis by all accounts has been more vocal in timeouts and on the sidelines than even D'Antoni, and he is the kind of strong-willed personality who might fill the desperate need for a coach on the floor. If Boom Dizzle can't get it done I have a strong feeling we will either have a new coach or a different superstar to root for before the season is over because without him the team as presently constructed is too top-heavy with redundant, incompatible pieces to do anything but flounder and disappoint.
If, by the trade deadline, Baron hasn't righted the ship, I'd suggest we throw a hail-mary and trade Melo to NJ for Deron Williams (assuming Dwight hasn't ended up there already somehow). Both teams would be better for it, honestly.
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And yeah, I realize this is totally pessimistic and dispassionate
But after all the constant gutting of the team and all the hype around this new core, the ugly, ugly basketball and obvious structural flaws this team is just plain offensive to me and I have no emotional attachment to this group of mercenaries. If this squad can’t get it done, fuck ’em, keep the “superstar” merry-go-round spinning until we actually get it right. We as Knicks fans deserve a team that plays hard and plays well after all the bullshit of the past decade.
by flossy on Dec 30, 2011 5:56 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I agree with 73 percent of what you said....Also am I going to get proper credit for creating a Melo for Deron fanpost a few weeks ago if circumstances push the Knicks and Nets into such a trade?
P.S. Also “wet farts” dont stink. its those dry 8:30 in the morning office ones that do. Like a cadaver.
i agree. I think if we had kept the team with Zach Randolph, Jamal and the rest, we probably would have been decent and maybe even a playoff team. We started the season 8-3 when we traded the two away so we could save money for Lebron and Bosh. Amare only came because we offered him the most or else he be in Miami if Bosh didn’t go there. It’s pointless to have a bunch of superstars when they can’t win. Dallas proved you don’t need superstars to win rings. I rather have a team with one superstar and a bunch of good players and veterans like Jason kid instead of overpay for names. I hope Baron can save the team and I remain optimistic that it’s still early but so far I don’t like what I am seeing from Stat.
Fields SF
Shumpert SG
Chandler C
Stoudemire PF
D. Williams PG
Thats like last years team. But much much better.
I realize this is totally pessimistic and dispassionate
you’ve got a gift for it, man.
we’re five games into the preseason, relaxxxxxxxxxxx
TYBG
by The Rooster on Dec 30, 2011 10:11 PM EST up reply actions
So is the rest of the league though
And nobody else with two superstars sucks this harrrrrrdddddd
And Dallas depending on your definition of superstar
Stainer of mountaintops.
by Chairman Meow on Dec 30, 2011 11:05 PM EST up reply actions
And they've been playing together too
This is still a new team, that has to work with a center presence they’ve never had and a PG who’s never played PG in this type of situation
KNICKS NOW
http://nyknicksnow.blogspot.com/ - check it out!
Those teams are both old and busted, and they both let key pieces of their core leave for basically nothing
A better comparison is the Clippers. Did it take Chris Paul slogging through months of shitty basketball to find decent chemistry Blake and his other teammates?
Nope, it took him about ten minutes; he’s already dropping 11 dimes a night and he’s just getting warmed up. They had a short pre-season too, by the way.
Dude that's an all-world point guard. I think if, say, we swapped our recent big acquisition Tyson Chandler with CP3 we wouldn't be looking this discombobulated either.
Fish Fingers give me a break.
I will however concede that the Clipper's record is no better than ours right now
But the problems I’m talking about were evident from the moment Amar’e and Melo were paired up and and an offseason and mini camp don’t seem to have alleviated them (if anything, we’ve regressed).
Melo for DWill would probably be good for both,
just that, after now knowing we coulda had DWill last year, makes ya wanna kick yoself… oh well, id def do it, but lots of people proly would scream bloddy murder…hey whatever makes this team better and puts them in a position to win a championship
You are of course correct sir.
and further roster and/or coach adjustments will undoubtedly be made. Uglyball must not be allowed to continue.
Spin Lin
Idk if the blind hatred of Melo is comical or disturbing.
Dude breaks down defenses, draws fouls, creates shots for others, and straps the team on his back and drags it to wins. But he’s the guy u want to trade?
While Stat can’t hit a freakin shot, is a turnover machine, creates nada for others, only rebounds when he forces himself to, needs things to be run in a limited and specific way for him to be effetive, and plays what might be the worst defense in the league. But if we’re gonna bust up the core, he’s the guy you’d rather keep? WTF logic is that?
I like both guys and I think they’ll figure it out. But Stat has to stop settling for jumpers a mile away from the rack. And it would be nice to see the two big guns in a two-man game.
Once Fields and TD get their asses planted on the bench where they belong, things will start moving in the right direction.
by Crackback on Dec 30, 2011 8:32 PM EST via mobile reply actions
You're funny. Blind hatred? Can you not read? I said Melo is the most talented scorer and one-on-one player in the league
I suggested trading him because his contract has insurance and we’d get good value back.
Meanwhile you think a 5 time all-NBA player “can’t hit a shot” and plays the worst defense in the league. I guess you weren’t paying attention for those 10 30+ point games in a row last year? Too busy fantasizing about the impending Melo trade to watch those games maybe?
Anyway, Amar’e and D-Will would wreck shit together and Melo could take every shot for the Brooklynettes. See, everyone’s happy (except you, because we traded your pweshious).
The bad spells have been directly linked to Stat sucking up the joint.
The idiotic turnovers, the defensive lapses, the brick layin… He’s been horrible. If the dude would just knock down the open jumpers he gets, we’d be sittin pretty.
Melo, even when his shot is off, still breaks down defenses regularly and creates opportunities for other guys. There’s an adjustment for everybody as they all learn the nuances of each other’s game (where the break downs will be, where the sweet spots are, etc). But there’s no excuse for Stat to be missing all the easy looks he’s been getting over the last two games.
And Lin should be starting over TD right now. Even if he doesn’t know any plays. He can free-style and run a better show than Toney. Toney supposedly knows the plays but he can’t run any for shit so what difference does it make. Might as well stick him at the 2 and let him chuck since that’s all he really good for once he heats up.
by Crackback on Dec 30, 2011 10:55 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Melo creates opportunities for his teammates (2.9 apg last year)
but Amar’e (2.6 apg last year) doesn’t? Melo has a 1:1 assist/turnover ratio so far in 3 games, is that really something you want to brag about?
I get it, you love Melo, you don’t like Amar’e. But the fact of the matter is that this season the entire offense has been turned over to Melo. He gets whatever shots he wants and Amar’e gets the table scraps. Nothing in rhythm or within the flow of the offense, hardly any actually plays run for him, just a bunch of 20 foot jump shots and the occasional random iso looks. Dude has been a 25 ppg scorer and the most dominating finisher in the league very recently. It’s not his fault that a Melo-centric iso offense doesn’t take advantage of any of his strengths.
But whatever. You can think what you want. If you seriously believe that Jeremy Lin starting at PG is going to be the answer, I don’t really have anything more to say.
The thing about assists is the person on the other end has to actually take and make the shot
Yes Melo creates opportunities, he always has. And after awhile he stops trying because he’s played his entire career with brick layers (Camby, KMart), bigs afraid to take a shot (Nene), and players unwilling to stop and pop because they’d rather be on Sportscenter and also never pass the ball back to Melo (JR, Iverson).
I saw it too many times in Denver where Melo ultimately made the (right) decision that he needed to control the ball because with Melo three things would happen, two of them good (make shot, draw a foul).
When the sad sack others had the ball, three things could happen, two of them bad (miss the shot, turn the ball over).
Trading the healthier player and keeping the one who will fall apart faster would be a mistake.
"Man, I've got vision and the rest of the world wears bifocals."
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
When any one player decides his teammates are unworthy of receiving a pass, it is to the detriment of the team
Period.
Shooters never get in rhythm just standing around and watching one guy go one-on-five.
And the “opportunities” created by ball-dominant players who view passing as a last resort are rarely the kind that lead to easy buckets and therefore assists.
Melo is obviously a talented offensive player but there is a good reason that Denver’s offense didn’t miss a beat when he and Chauncey left. Sometimes it is necessary for a player of his caliber to take it upon himself to score all the points. That should absolutely not be the default mindset.
I agree because I really miss Will and Gallo
Its kinda hard to feel a connection to Melo when he forced his way over here to be “the man” or whatever but we had to give up more than half our team for him. Its easier to accept the bumps in the road when you are doing it with players who actually want to be Knicks. I can’t get over him telling Dolan that he has to give up more pieces in order to get him otherwise he would sign with the Nets because he wanted his money.
Melo forced his way here and you don't think he WANTS to be a Knick?
I think your recollection of the situation is somewhat off.
"I’m gonna climb up you today, Stat! No layups!" - Dump
Follow @MattyFnRaider
ONE NATION UNDER AL
Respect the reputation or it's an altercation.
Really??? Still pining over Gallo and Will...
Why does everybody conveniently forget that while extremely talented both those guys would disappear for games at a time? They were both wildly inconsistent and drove me freakin crazy with their on again off again skills. Even with the “problems” that Flossy hypothesizes above, this is a much team than last year’s Pre Melo team.
Everybody needs to chill. We’re 3 games into the season and we’ve already beaten Boston! Things take time to gel. It’s not time to blow up the team or fire the coaches or start shopping Melo around for a point guard. Just relax and let things play themselves out for more than a week. We have Baron to look forward to and Iman holds some promise.
Agree about chilling
I think that what is really missing from the pre-melotrade team is the floor leadership of Felton. But remember, the first few games of the season, even with a full preseason, he looked pretty bad and the team looked very stagnant.
Get The Frickin' Rebound
Not jumping on either side...
in THIS post at least… but we tend to forget the details about Gallo and Will sure… but they also make a LOT less than our current two stars while probably being more well rounded players (that does not equal “better” players) and allowing us to keep flexibility to add other needed pieces to the roster.
That is the concern with our current team construction and has been said since Melo arrived… our two best players essentially are best at the same things and worst at the same things and don’t complement one another very well (which means we need other pieces to make them fit together – pieces we’ll struggle to afford).
It might work out with Baron to organize things or Shump making big strides… but for two highly paid superstars, it’s sometimes hard to admit they need “glue guys” much more than other superstar pairings.
I mostly agree, obviously
But I don’t think Amar’e is the same. He was always bad at rebounding and everything but I think he’s broken down now. Now his ankle’s sprained too. And he doesn’t play well with Melo. Just like Landry doesn’t play well with Melo.
Yeah, Melo is great but either he’s ruined the offense, the changes D’Antoni has made for him ruined the offense, or the other new guys ruined the offense.
I’m also not so sure about trading for Deron Williams. This sounds bad, but if he joined the Knicks, how would the Knicks be different from the current Nets? Deron seems a bit too much like Marbury or Randy Moss, playing bad on bad teams. I also don’t think the Knicks would ever trade him, at least not for a few years.
Playing bad on bad teams?
He averaged double-doubles on Jazz teams that went to the playoffs nearly every year. They went to the Conference Finals once and the semifinals twice during that stretch.
KNICKS NOW
http://nyknicksnow.blogspot.com/ - check it out!
yes he played well on good teams
But when the Jazz weren’t good he played bad and got Sloan to retire. And then did bad on the Nets. And is bad on the Nets again now. But was great for a winning Turkish team.
I meant he played poorly when he was on bad teams, not that he played bad and was on bad teams often.
Similarly
Randy Moss looked washed up on bad Raiders teams, then went to the Patriots and broke records. I thought the analogy was obvious.
if he joined the Knicks, how would the Knicks be different from the current Nets?
You don’t see a difference between a starting 4/5 of Amar’e Stoudemire and Tyson Chandler vs. Shelden Williams and Brook Lopez?
sounds better
But I don’t know, Brook and Amar’e don’t play D or rebound. Tyson and Shelden are D and rebounds. Nets have some decent bench players. Knicks excluding Carmelo have been the worst in the league, so I’m saying if Deron replaced Melo I don’t think you can definitely say they’d be better than the Nets.
Is it bad...
That I genuinely believe starting Lin will solve our ball movement problems? Maybe it’s just that I have a thing for four year graduates (especially from Harvard), or that I’m really grasping at anything resembling a true PG, or maybe (probably this) I put to much stock in that video with John Wall, but I reeeeaaally want to see him.
Also, greetings from Missouri! This place makes Camden look like Prauge!
Stainer of mountaintops.
this is out of context
but i hate del negro right now he has the best point guard in the league and 2 atheletic forwards in griffin and jordan. not to mention burps and butler.
what did he do to deserve this gorgoeous line up?
mda must be jealous of him right now. :P
Pringles stepped into shit since he got here.
but the dude’s just maintained his line. I mean for fuck’s sake look at what we’ve done to the roster!
2 years straight of getting rid of cap space, so we trot out the Larry Hugheses and Al Harrington’s of the world. The next we get Amar’e Stout, the team starts to gel then they blow it up for Carmelo…now they’re 2 great scorers, Mr.Brick Shot and whatever the hell Toney Douglas is.
Now Tyson Chandler, a new dynamic to the team. Everyone’s waiting for Baron Davis, but that’s gonna take time when he comes back. I do have to say, it kind of nice to have Dolan (****throws up, shits, and pisses at the same time) since he’s fairly hands off when it comes to b-ball operations.
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
First Comment here ever
I’ve been reading this blog for a while and loving it. Love the sarcasm Rorshach, Flossy I think your points are dead on. The Melo trade was a disaster. Trading 80% of a starting lineup for a guy that needs to be motivated, doesn’t play in the flow that you spent 3 years creating, and doesn’t play D…. words fail to acknowledge the stupidity. Baron looks like he cares, and maybe he’s the answer, but I was at the Lakers disaster, and other then Fields I didn’t see much that gave me hope, and a glue guy is not what you build your team around, but I’d hate to lose him
by RichardVincentGuerin on Jan 4, 2012 5:10 PM EST up reply actions
congrats on 1st comment!
welcome, way to mix it up.
sreh ladien e' ta janjia
by Lord Smackington on Jan 4, 2012 6:39 PM EST up reply actions
just re read my comment above^because I'm sometimes obsessive but I'm also pretty bitter and sarcastic at times
but I meant no sarcasm if it looked that way.
sreh ladien e' ta janjia
by Lord Smackington on Jan 6, 2012 2:15 PM EST up reply actions
We don't need to trade one of our stars. I really believe STAT and Melo can work.
Stat and Melo should have the most devastating pick n roll combo in the league, but right now it doesn’t work because of horrific spacing and guys breaking to early or too late. It’ll come around, and Baron Davis will help a lot.
However, our defense is still hilariously bad, and the sad thing is, our roster has plenty of good defenders (except Amare and Bibby). Bibby’s problem is that he’s 103 years old. Amare’s problem is… well look who’s been his only coach for his whole career!
(Porter didn’t have him a full season, and they were dealing with Shaq drama. Gentry just told Steve Nash to run D’Antoni’s system and collected checks).
If you wanna get mad at Amare’s Defense then you should look no farther than Mike D’Antoni. He has obviously never taught Amare to defend (lip service doesn’t count) and he has obviously never taught his team to play team defense (lip service doesn’t count).
Think about our roster: A team with Tyson Chandler, Melo (who plays fantastic D when motivated), Toney Douglas, Landry Fields, Renaldo Balkman, Jared Jeffries, Iman Shumpert, Harrelson(slow but hustles his ass off) etc. should be a great defensive team on paper! I know some of those guys are injured, but they’re on the team and still contribute to a defensive culture.
And ask yourself, if we played lockdown defense our first 3 games. Maybe we eek out an ugly win against either the Warriors or Lakers, and maybe lose the other by a slim margin.
Now we’re 2-1 instead of 1-2 and we’re not even having these panicking conversations. We’re just sitting around saying, “I can’t wait for our offense to start clicking. This team’s gonna be awesome.”
It’s the coach, man, it’s the coach. There I said it.
Thanks for making us a contender, Donnie.
by StarksMiddleFinger on Dec 31, 2011 9:54 AM EST reply actions
When I say "lip service doesn't count"
I mean that saying your focusing on defense and yelling at your team to play defense is NOT the same thing as teaching your team to play defense and holding them accountable for playing defense as a team the right way.
I should know because I’m a teacher. If any of you attended a crappy public school then you know that there are plenty of bad teachers who don’t teach. They just give lip service: “Everyone sit down and shut up! Answer these questions out of the book! The answers are all in the chapter.” That’s not teaching, that’s lip service.
I consistently produce students with excellent scores because I actually teach. I don’t tell my students. I show my students. I constantly model for them what the correct way looks like. I produce the same work they should be producing along side of them. I give them constant feedback. I hold them accountable when they do things wrong. Eventually they can do it just as good as I can.
Mike D’Antoni just yells about defense, and then during games he just sits on the bench and watches the other team run a layup drill on us with a constipated look on his face. Then when the Knicks are down by 20 and the game is out of reach, we freaks out, calls a timeout, and starts screaming at guys. (You know it’s true. This happens so often).
That is not teaching. That is not coaching. That’s lip service.
Thanks for making us a contender, Donnie.
by StarksMiddleFinger on Dec 31, 2011 10:05 AM EST up reply actions
Stat and Melo should have the most devastating pick n roll combo in the league, but right now it doesn’t work because of horrific spacing and guys breaking to early or too late.
They’ve had half a season together, and an offseason to work on it if they wanted to, and a training camp (albiet a short one) to try to get it going. I can count on my fingers the number of times I’ve seen them run a pick and roll together that results in even an attempted pass to the roll man much less a successful one. In order to be his superstar self Amar’e needs that play run for him a dozen times every night. It’s not that Melo doesn’t have the passing aptitude to complete the play, it’s that he’s plainly not the kind of player who is going to be happy or effective as the primary initiator of the PnR-centric offense that turns Stat into a monster.
Saying “they should be a devastating pick and roll combo” is like saying “Amar’e should be a beast on defense and the boards” just because he’s tall and super athletic. As we all know, that’s just not in his nature.
More to your point, so far the highest point total we’ve given up has been 104 points and that was in a win. This team is not built to play lockdown defense, it’s built to score like hell and play good enough D to get the win. The problem is our offense is ugly as fuck because we have no PG, and in the absence of a strong court general Melo’s ISO-only style of play turns everyone else into an ineffective bystander.
As far as the pick n roll goes, I think you're helping me make my point.
The amount of times they run that pick n roll and attempt a pass is absurdly low. Why? Because the spacing sucks too much to throw a pass in there. This is for two reasons: One is other Knicks being in the wrong place. Two is Melo (or Douglas or whoever starts with the ball) does not put enough pressure on the defense forcing them to choose between STAT and Melo.
Once again… coaching.
On the defensive issue, I guess we’re just going to have to disagree. Saying whether a roster is capable of playing defense or not isn’t something you can really support with statistics. I think lots of other coaches (Thibs, Adelman, Frank, Rivers, McMillan, Skiles, Sloan, Popovich, Brown, Hollins etc.) could get this roster to play great defense.
Also, if you’re not building a team that can play lockdown defense down the stretch, than what are you even doing in the first place. Every GM with a pulse knows that no matter how many points you score, there comes a time (especially in the playoffs) when you need to dig in and get a stop. Donnie Walsh certainly knew that, and Glen Grunfeld knows it too. Give them some credit, man. They didn’t build this team to be this inept at defense. No way.
Thanks for making us a contender, Donnie.
by StarksMiddleFinger on Dec 31, 2011 11:11 AM EST up reply actions
I think Chandler should be finishing the PnR with Stat in the corner waiting for the kickout…i think this would fix our problem….Stats shooting has greatly improved the past few years and would do alot to spread the D out…
by Chris3035 on Dec 31, 2011 11:26 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
No
Amar’e as a spot-up shooter is a total waste of a max contract. Ryan Anderson could do the same thing, but better.
So because he's a max player he shouldn't take wide open jump shots when they're available?
I don’t follow that logic.
He should go ahead and take those shots for now, and because he’s not Ryan Anderson, he will be able to get that and much more as the defense gets more organized.
Thanks for making us a contender, Donnie.
by StarksMiddleFinger on Dec 31, 2011 1:08 PM EST up reply actions
I meant "as the offense gets more organized"
Thanks for making us a contender, Donnie.
by StarksMiddleFinger on Dec 31, 2011 1:09 PM EST up reply actions
Here's a list of other big money/all star players who take tons of spot up jumpers off pick n rolls.
Kevin Garnett, Dirk Nowiztski, Carlos Boozer (did it all the time in Utah), Blake Griffin, Pau Gasol, Marc Gasol, Chris Bosh, David West (with Hornets), Elton Brand, LaMarcus Aldridge…
Are all these guys a waste??? (No Bosh or Boozer jokes please)
Besides, if Amare consistently hits those spot up shots, it’s just going to open the floor for him to unleash more destruction in the paint. Take what the defense gives you. More and more will be available.
Thanks for making us a contender, Donnie.
by StarksMiddleFinger on Dec 31, 2011 1:28 PM EST up reply actions
Dude
If you think Marc Gasol and Blake Griffin meet the definition of “spot up shooters,” I have nothing more I can even add to this conversation except to clarify one last time that I’m not saying Amar’e should never shoot open jump shots. I’m saying that he should be used primarily to score in the paint of pick and roll or curl plays. Long two point jumpers are the least efficient way to score the ball, whereas dunks and lay-ups are the ideal. Amar’e used to routinely score the most points in the paint of any player in the NBA. Now we’re turning him into a chisled version of Antoine Walker. Do. Not. Want.
Once we got Chandlor
or anyone else but Amar’e to play center, then this overcrowding of the paint was inevitable. This takes us back to the need for superior point guard play if we accept the trope that Amar’e needs a good point guard to thrive (which I do)., Once BD is in the lineup things better change for the good or as you point out or we are truly fucked. In the meantime I would like to see Lin given a chance to show his stuff.
Worst case, this combination of players never really works out and we have to break up the team again. Since Amar’e is probably untradeable we get rid of Melo and go back to a team built around Amar’e.talents. I actually prefer that type of team to a Melo centric one. But whatever wins I will take.
Spin Lin
In addition to a premier PG...
I think a pure spot up shooter on our team would make a HUGE difference. We have no one like that, except maybe Novak… who happens to be able to basically play the same position as our two stars.
We need a confident, driving PG who can hit an outside shot to keep teams honest (BD) and a sweet shooting guard at the two spot (?).
couldn't hurt if we found one on cheap
sreh ladien e' ta janjia
by Lord Smackington on Jan 6, 2012 5:04 PM EST up reply actions
Seriously?
I never said “Marc Gasol and Blake Griffin are the definition of spot up shooters.”
That’s the point! There not!
They do other things, but they are also often the recepients of spot up jump shots when the defense collapses on pick n rolls. Pringles should have Amare do the same while they build more fluidity on offensive sets.
Unless you think it’s better for Amare’s only touches to come in isos at the elbows?
Anyway, I don’t even know why I got caught up in this. My only point was that this team is not fundamentally flawed without Baron, and Amare and Melo are not incapable of playing with each other. As far as I can tell, the only thing flawed about it right now is the coaching.
I’m not saying “Fire D’Antoni.” It’s way to early for that. But I am saying that we need to see some serious coaching adjustments on offense and defense. And if I was Glen Grunwald, I’d have a heart to heart with D’antoni to see what was going on.
Thanks for making us a contender, Donnie.
by StarksMiddleFinger on Dec 31, 2011 5:17 PM EST up reply actions
Ryan Anderson also rebounds better
If Amar’e was a poor man’s Ryan Anderson the Knicks might as well just forfeit the season.
The spacing is a problem because we now have Tyson Chandler and his man clogging the lane
But that’s not the point. If we wanted someone to orchestrate the offense and run the pick and roll for Amar’e a dozen times every game, it was pointless to trade for Melo. If we wanted a player who could thrive as the second option in an ISO-centric offense, we shouldn’t have signed Amar’e. No matter what happens, one of them is going to have to fundamentally change his own offensive game, and not for the better.
That is, unless we get a true PG who can take the reigns of the offense out of both of their hands and use the two of them as weapons in a unified attack. The two of them are not going to figure it out without some serious help—they’re not leaders, orchestrators, floor generals. They score, period. This is why the season basically rests on Baron Davis.
I won't argue that they need a true pg to bring out the best in both of them.
All I’m saying is: They can do a lot better than they’re doing right now with some proper coaching. I think you’re underrating Melo’s ability to be a playmaker. Yes, Baron will help make things better, but the absence of Baron shouldn’t mean we fall apart completely.
The bigger issue is the defense which does not depend on Baron Davis’ health. If the coach taught them to play good team defense and held them accountable, maybe we scratch out an ugly win and our whole mindset is different.
Thanks for making us a contender, Donnie.
by StarksMiddleFinger on Dec 31, 2011 1:17 PM EST up reply actions
Its been 3 games for cryin out loud….we had no offseason, no preseason, no chance to form chemistry….we have 8 brand new players, 5 who havnt been here more than a season….this team is pretty much brand new…Melo has to adjust from being a isolation scorer to running the PnR…
Wait till March to start talking about Melo for DWill….
by Chris3035 on Dec 31, 2011 11:23 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Other teams went through changes too...
I know we’ve gone through quite a few, but most other teams have pieces playing together that haven’t formed chemistry yet. I agree we’ll definitely get better, but I think we’ll still see enough of the same problems we’re seeing now to keep us from being a true “contender”.
Basically agree
Some additional opinions:
Amar’e and Melo have defensive skills but they’re deficient in terms of knowing when to go for a block or a steal, when to cheat and when to stay home for rebounds, etc. I think D’antoni may not be the best guy to teach don’t but Chandler seems very good and communicative about that kind of stuff. They may never be a great defensive team but I actually don’t think they’ve been that awful and I think they’ll get better with time and familiarity.
Offense is their problem. I think Bibby can get some flow going with time to work on it. Maybe Lin too. Playing Douglas at point guard is counterproductive at this point, I think.
Man I miss Felton. Not because he was the best point guard- because he was Ahhh point guard.
The offense is where I think we have real problems and I think your assessment is right on.
Get The Frickin' Rebound
he and Amar’e are fundamentally incompatible: Amar’e needs a crisp offense in which he is the focus and ball-movement is paramount, Melo needs an offense in which he is the focus and he is allowed to isolate and beat his man one-oas possible.
Keep in mind that this core has not been together very long in comparison to any team you might feel compelled to weight it against.
Dantoni was able to push us into the playoffs last season with the entire second half of the season pretty much relying on a rushed, hastily put together offensive strategy mostly leaning heavily on the individual talents of Melo and Stat and even that took some time for it to come together before it looked anything like NBA basketball, and despite getting swept in the playoffs, what I saw was a very competitive and exciting series. This Year? Same shit but for different reasons. We lost role players from last year who were a part of what we did offensively last year, added Chandler and had a short camp/pre-season consisting of 2 weeks pretty much to figure out how to make it work.
Agree with your assessment on Melo for the most part but I don’t think it’s far fetched to think they can be successful together.
I also think Stat and Melo need to look better on the floor together but again, they looked bad last year and we were able to make the playoffs and we have still yet to have the two in a full training camp left to practice well thought out offensive sets utilizing the strengths of our lineups.
Our problems really boils down to three things…
1) We still have no distributor.
2) Our core players/ starters have not even been together(more important, practiced together) for even a year.
3) There is no time yet we need time in a lockout shortened, tightly compressed season.
What we have isn’t perfect but I honestly don’t see anything that time, practice and continuity can’t improve. We are slowly adding pieces that fit a rather promising mold and for the first time I really don’t think we need to make any trades. We have a partial mid level to use right now if need be and cap space in the off season so as long as we can gradually improve over the course of the season we’ll be fine.
sreh ladien e' ta janjia
by Lord Smackington on Dec 31, 2011 5:48 PM EST reply actions
Plus #4 to your list I think...
a shooter. We don’t have one to space the floor. Landry has been getting a decent amount of open looks but hasn’t been able to knock them down. Imagine a Ray Allen type out there waiting for a kickout from our stars, etc? THAT would definitely create a bit more spacing out there.
I'm sick of the "we just need time" excuse
Most teams have had a lot of turnover. The Clippers are mostly new and supposedly have an awful coach and they’re doing much better than the Knicks. Same with the Hornets.
that's cuz you're impatient and quick to draw conclusions.
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
Much better?
They are 1-2, and have the 30th ranked defense based on PPG. I wouldnt call that much better.
The Triple Felt Goose movement shall live as long as I am around.
he just like saying stuff to say it sometimes
sreh ladien e' ta janjia
by Lord Smackington on Jan 1, 2012 5:09 PM EST up reply actions
If Pringles had CP3 instead of Toney Bibby I bet our offense gels a bit quicker too.
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
Right... that's exactly the point.
For all the talk about how Amar’e and Melo are super duper star offensive talents (which they are, individually), when combined they are less than the sum of their parts because their games don’t co-exist.
Whereas there are superstar players out there who legitimately make their teammates better and don’t need half a season plus a whole off-season and mini-camp plus X number of games etc. etc. etc. in order to finally ‘gel.’ Those just aren’t the ones we spent all our cap space and trade chips on.
Hence the reason we are once again relying on a past-his-prime star PG to turn a bunch of ill-fitting and defensively deficient core pieces into a contender. I happen to think Baron Davis will fare better than Starbury but it would be nice not to be in that shitty situation again.
Uh.....
Ok, this is what Im sick of.
This whole “superstars make their team better” bullshit NEEDS TO DIE. How many of those are there that arent point guards? LeBron and…..Ill give you D.Howard.
Kobe doesnt make anyone better. Neither does Wade. Or Bosh. Or Ginobili. Or Durant. Or Pierce. If they do, its simply because they can score so much easier than anyone else. Which draws attention, which makes it easy for others. Amare and Melo have this SAME SKILL, yet they constantly get this label that they dont make anyone better. Well I say this. There is no way Landry Fields hits the ground running last year without Amare on the floor. There’s no way Poop becomes Poop without Amare. Look what Jorts was able to do with all the focus on Melo yesterday. The only problem we have is that neither of our stars runs the offense. Miami would have the same problem is LeBron wasnt such a good playmaker. Boston would have the same problem if Rondo got hurt. How many teams in the league that are good have a wack PG? I cant think of 1. Except…..The Knicks.
The Triple Felt Goose movement shall live as long as I am around.
You obviously haven't been watching
Or you woulda noticed mighty mite Norris Coles teamed w/ Chalmers/Wade/Lebron. C’mon dude. And spurs have had the same Parker as they always had…but I’m sure yer advanced stats must be telling U something is amiss…not so.
Norris cole is overrated player of the year
Chalmers? You must be joking. These guys are not real PGs who set up easy shots for everyone else. You could say Wade but he is playing SG. Or LeBron at SF. When the Spurs were starting their championship era, they benched Tony at the end of games because he couldn’t run the offense solidly. Toney’s no worse.
To you , king of the blanket statement
Who cares if they are or not? If it works it works. Your personal opinion doesn’t matter and Parker I guess rounded out just fine. Stop posting just to hear yourself. Until Norris shows mass amounts of suckiness, , and so far he hasn’t, your opinion is dead in the water
it’s ridiculous to say that norris cole right now, and tony parker when younger were less wack than Toney Douglas. And BJ Armstrong, Chris Childs, the Pacers PGs in 2003-2004. Arguably Jameer Nelson.
it's not ridiculous to say he's playing better than them right now if he in fact is
sreh ladien e' ta janjia
by Lord Smackington on Jan 3, 2012 12:24 PM EST up reply actions
Exactly.
And to Mindfeck I was rude so I apologize, but I myself am tired of seeing blanket claims about good guys just because. 6 games into his career, the kid is good. He is responsible for one of 5 wins and has performed admirably in 5 of 6 games. The Heat are not a normal team that rely on their PG, but they def needed better play than what Chalmers and Bibby offered. This kid fills the bill. He can’t hit a 3 but can attack the defense and score. I hate the heat but love this kid. We’ll agree to disagree, but I’m standing firm.
You're joking right?
Kobe and Wade absolutely make their teammates better in an active sense, not just the default “they attract a lot of defensive attention” sense, both by being PG-caliber distributors (their career passing stats blow Stat and Melo out of the water) and elite defenders at their position. Durant doesn’t so much have these qualities but he’s on track to be one of the all-time most prolific and efficient scorers of all time so he qualifies as a true superstar IMO.
The rest of the players you mention are no better than Amare or Melo—imagine a team built around Paul Pierce, Chris Bosh, a defensive center, a weak bench and no competent PG to speak of. That team would be wack. And unless Baron comes back strong we basically have that, with more swag. You can’t say “the only problem we have is that neither of our stars run the offense” when that’s a HUGE, CRIPPLING problem for a team that is already defensively mediocre, shallow and totally capped out.
by flossy on Jan 1, 2012 10:47 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Durant doesn’t so much have these qualities but he’s on track to be one of the all-time most prolific and efficient scorers of all time so he qualifies as a true superstar IMO.
I don’t even know Kobe and Wade’s passing stats but I’m pretty much sure they are in fact higher because they are in fact guards and they often have the ball in their hands. None the less your case that they make their teammates better is very arguable but pretty solid.
However your thought’s on Durant is what has me perplexed and most concerned. How can you admit he doesn’t have those same qualities you attribute to “superstar” talent but call him a superstar in the same breath? All the while you argue time after time Carmelo Anthony is not a superstar despite having above average passing numbers for his position, finishing 4th in total assists behind Paul Pierce(who I also suppose is a “superstar”) at his position.
Now if you were to mention Durant’s defense as the game changer, I could fully support these arguments if not for the fact that despite Durant being 7 ft and having those long gangly octo arms, his defensive rating(which is based on the points he allows per possesion) is exactly identical to Anthony’s.
So then what? Is Melo not as good a scorer as Durant? Is that it? Is that the new criteria? Well then I guess Durant has him there because Durant averages 1 whole point more than Melo per game, with a .004 better shooting percentage. Hey, I guess you gotta draw the line somewhere tho’ right?
I don’t know. You seem like one of the most objective dudes on here floss but every time we come to this superstar discussion your view leaves me puzzled. I’m not saying you have to, or even should view Melo as a superstar but If not I don’t see how you can consider guys like Durant one? Let alone Pierce and Bosh sweet beejesus! Is this a media brainwash thing, maybe Melo lost you a huge bet and you had to wear a daiper for a week? IDK. Please help me understand.
sreh ladien e' ta janjia
by Lord Smackington on Jan 3, 2012 1:11 PM EST up reply actions
Re: Durant
His career TS% is actually three entire points higher than Melo’s which makes him a massively more efficient scorer considering they both have very very high usage rates.
I know it is the topic of endless debate on here but I would absolutely take Durant over Melo if I were drafting a team and I think (though I can’t prove it) that almost any NBA GM would too. The numbers show pretty unequivocally that Durant is a better player once you get past simple PPG kind of stats, but to me it’s stylistic. I believe Durant is able to dominate a game without dominating the ball. He is a lethal shooter off the catch, still has a dizzying array of one-on-one moves, and has the smarts to pass up a bad shot (and to do so quickly). His prolific scoring doesn’t detract from the contributions of his teammates. Carmelo Anthony on the other hand is probably the best one-on-one player in the NBA right now but he’s a ball-stopper and someone who seems to thrive only in an offense dedicated to giving him the ball (often for looong stretches of the shot clock) and allowing him to do whatever he wants with it, including taking low-percentage shots just because he can. I happen to believe this is not as good a way to play basketball, or at least, that Melo’s individual talent is negated somewhat by the deadening effect that his ISO-happy preferred style of play seems to have on ball-movement and the play of his teammates.
But hey, that’s just me. I happen to put Melo (and Amar’e, who has different, but equally serious, flaws in his game) in the category of B-level stars who are good enough to get your team to the playoffs but not good enough to be the best player on a championship team.
As for Piece and Bosh, JerzeeBalla just mentioned them so I went with it. I think those two are pretty comparable to Melo and Amar’e. The Melo fanboys on this blog hate it when you point this out but if you look at Pierce’s career numbers through age 27 they are shockingly similar to Melo’s. And Bosh, weird-looking douchebag that he may be, is definitely in Amar’e’s league as far as talent is concerned. People put halos around Stat and Melo because they are Knicks and we root for them and they have cooler personalities than other, similarly talented players. But if you do the thought experiment and switch Stat and Melo for similar players that we don’t “like” as much, our team starts not to look so great.
really glad you took the time to explain that
And If I’m starting a team I’d also take Durant but only because he’s 7 ft, younger and slightly cheaper but as far as actual basketball skill? I think they are much too close to differentiate and I don’t feel that .031 difference in TS% is enough to separate them let alone christen one a superstar over the other.
…but I see your thought process now so I at least know you didn’t swallow a bottle of crazy pills.
sreh ladien e' ta janjia
by Lord Smackington on Jan 3, 2012 3:02 PM EST up reply actions
Good analysis
To me, everyone gets caught up in this ‘who is better’ stuff, but I really think that being on a very good team with a good floor leader and good chemistry can make guys look way better, and also can help them mature as people and players. It’s funny, I remember thinking that Pierce was a talented player that scored a lot of points but having doubts he’d ever win a championship.
I also agree that Durant would have an edge over Melo if I was picking a team, but I do think that Melo has enough varied skills and a good enough attitude to be a big part of a championship team if all the pieces are there. Amar’e too. But both of those guys have defensive skills but are not the smartest guys defensively. Therefore they definitely need a guy like Chandler in the frontcourt with them. They also both need a floor leader with authority and playmaking ability, and some time to gel.
It’s just tough to compare guys like Melo, Durant, Amar’e, Bosh, Pierce, et cetera. They all are great players but they can look a little better or worse depending on the guys around them.
Get The Frickin' Rebound
Pierce was a talented player that scored a lot of points but having doubts he’d ever win a championship.
This is all I’ve been trying to say. Pierce went more than half his career being questioned, dealing with suckitude and never winning a championship.
I’m sure tons of people talked about his shot selection and nit picked his game but in the end no one can see the future and say without doubt this guy will win because he’s a team player or that one won’t because he shoots too much because it’s all more than that. It’s a combination of things that come together perfectly at the right time for whatever reason and there is no one specific formula or type of player needed to get it done.
The Mavs championship team was vastly different from the Bulls Championship teams which were vastly different from the Pistons, Billups led championship team. Any team and any style can win with the right pieces in place and the proper execution. The hard part is you never truly know what those right pieces are until you get to that point and are successful. Everything else is educated guess work.
sreh ladien e' ta janjia
by Lord Smackington on Jan 4, 2012 10:25 AM EST up reply actions
Pierce went more than half his career being questioned, dealing with suckitude and never winning a championship.
Yeah, but he never became the best player on a championship team either. Garnett is clearly the superior player, an all-time great PF, and I would argue that Rondo has been at least as important to their winning as Piece.
If Melo was the 3rd or even 2nd best player on the Knicks we would not be having any of these problems!
Also, the example about Shawne Williams
Illustrates my larger point. He broke out on a team with one star who was the focal point of a coherent offense that emphasized ball movement. We didn’t need two star scoring forwards to make him effective. And indeed we have reduced the effectiveness of our role players by making the team more top-heavy and pairing two players whose incompatibility makes the offense incoherent.
by flossy on Jan 1, 2012 10:51 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Lebron might as well be a PG
and Dwight doesn’t exactly have a POS PG in Jameer Nelson
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
4 games
3 when you posted. just take it easy
"But when he saw it, he just put his hands up and they couldn’t give it to him. It just fell to the ground, I-I don’t, you know … So, that showed me he had great experience..." - Jeff Van Gundy
by Anthony Bonner's Subpoena on Jan 1, 2012 10:10 AM EST up reply actions
even if you think they have to win now
4 games is too small to judge.
I mean, dude. Relax and enjoy the season. Not all can be won or lost a week in.
I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."
It's less about the record
Than the obvious structural issues with the way this team is constituted which were obvious last year and continue to be apparent, win or lose.
by flossy on Jan 2, 2012 4:03 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
"This team" = Amar'e + Melo
Who were a bad fit from the get-go. The role players aren’t the key problem here.
floss, like it or not
and we know you don’t like it but watevs…we(the team that is) are all in on this Melo and Amare thing and they’ll probably be around for at least til 2013, longer if Dantoni gets his contract extension.
Whether he deserves one is an entirely different debate but Melo and Amare are professional basketball players. I see no reason why it should be a forgone conclusion that they can’t work together. Whatever they did or ran the second half of last season may have looked god awful from a purist standpoint but it was enough to get us to the playoffs; which is not the ultimate goal but it’s not an accomplishment that should be written off either. So who’s to say that with refinement we can’t have the success that we are all clearly looking for?
Throw out all the usage data you like but Shaq and a man proven to be the biggest ball chucking black hole(yet still a superstar!) in the NBA, Kobe Bryant
actually won a championship together despite not really even liking each other all that much and the high usage rates and all.
I could understand you being out of patience….you didn’t like the Melo trade, okay…tough titties, it happened. Knicks fandom is like a bad relationship, things are either going to get better or they are gonna get worse and best thing you can do for yourself is either bail out on the relationship or you make an honest attempt to better your relationship.
sreh ladien e' ta janjia
by Lord Smackington on Jan 4, 2012 10:04 AM EST up reply actions
Shaq and Kobe
also played very different positions on the floor. The way I see it with Amar’e and Melo is that it’s not necessarily more than the sum of it’s parts. It’s kind of like when the Knicks got Sprewell and had Houston and had to play one out of position. They would have been better off with only one of those guys and a great point guard, probably. You get a little overlap but that doesn’t mean it’s doomed to failure.
Actually, on the Heat, LeBron and Wade overlap a lot. It makes the pairing less spectacular when sharing the floor, but you also get 48 minutes of excellence.
Get The Frickin' Rebound
point taken on Kobe and Shaq
but what you get what I’m basically saying
You get a little overlap but that doesn’t mean it’s doomed to failure.
I mean Clyde tells the story about him and Monroe not knowing if they could work together alllllll the time and all they did was win a championship. No one knows for certain how this stuff will work out until it finishes unfolding.
I’m sure there are about a dozen other stories similar to Kobe/Shaq, Frazier/Monroe. They don’t always work out but they don’t always end in failure. The only guarantee is that the fans will boo if it doesn’t work.
I also agree with you on the Heat but people point to the flashy plays and to the record and really it don’t mean shit to me because at the end of the day If you don’t win a championship, everyone else is tied for last. A win is a win, don’t get me wrong. I won’t discredit them but I’m not going to heap praise on them either.
sreh ladien e' ta janjia
by Lord Smackington on Jan 4, 2012 10:45 AM EST up reply actions
Come on man
Shaq was one of the most singularly dominant NBA players of all time. And Kobe, ball-hog that he is, was also an elite defensive player in his prime which cannot be said for either of our stars. The Lakers had role players (Robert Horry, Horace Grant, Glen Rice, Ron Harper, etc.) who were battle-tested veterans and one of the best NBA coaches ever.
More to my point, as fuhry pointed out, Shaq and Kobe played very obviously different roles and were therefore more complimentary to one another on the court than Melo and Stat, who basically provide the same single thing (a lot of scoring from the forward position) yet prefer to do so in different kinds of offenses.
When you say this:
Whatever they did or ran the second half of last season may have looked god awful from a purist standpoint but it was enough to get us to the playoffs; which is not the ultimate goal but it’s not an accomplishment that should be written off either.
I say, the Knicks played .500 ball after the trade, worse than the team before the trade, so what? And don’t you think that a team with two max-contract superstars should expect that making the playoffs is a given?
I don’t think I’m being unduly pessimistic, I’m being realistic about the problems with the team that’s been assembled based on what I know about the key players and how I’ve observed them play with each other. If this team is going to be elite we still need a strong PG to make the ill-fitting pieces work together and become more than the sum of their parts. As I said in my post I hope Baron is the answer, but if not we should not be wedded to this particular marquee duo if they are just going to underachieve.
As you said, we’re all in on this core. I’ve tolerated, as have we all, a whole lot of shitty Knicks basketball in my life but it does feel worse to watch the same face-palm inducing play now that there is no more room for growth, and we’re basically pinning our hopes that two marquee players can fundamentally evolve into something new in order to successfully play together—so well that it makes up for our lack of depth—with no other playmaker on the roster.
dont get hung up on Kobe & Shaq
I’ll also go back to fuhry, which I actually mentioned previously above
You get a little overlap but that doesn’t mean it’s doomed to failure.
the point was that there have been lots of tandems critics have dissected and analyzed and said would never work but the reality is no one ever knows for certain until everything plays out.
Sure you can go off what you see now, but it’s still early, and yeah it’s early for everyone else too but there is no certainty that 30 games in the teams playing well now are going to still be playing well or that the teams playing badly now are gonna continue playing bad.
As for expectations, I don’t feel anything in any professional sport is a given actually. The Heat were heralded as favorites to win the Championship and it seemed pretty feasible since as they have not two but three “superstars” but we saw how that worked out. And even if I personally thought playoffs were a given, we made the playoffs and so that expectation should be satisfied. I’m surely not happy with just a first rd playoff sweep but after a 10 yr playoff hiatus I surely didn’t expect a championship last year let alone a conference finals.
Improvement isn’t always instant, sometimes it’s gradual. I for one would rather have a gradual improvement than none at all. Baby steps…expensive baby steps for sure, but what good is it crying over spilled milk. Progress is progress.
I see all the same problems you see the only difference is that I think that before saying this can’t work we should get in some practice time and give the staff some time to see how ALL of these puzzle pieces can work together for a fit.
I never once said Amare and Melo will work, you may be absolutely right, and then you can laugh at us all and say I told you so but I don’t know that they won’t work. In my opinion the only thing that can make that call is time.
sreh ladien e' ta janjia
by Lord Smackington on Jan 4, 2012 2:06 PM EST up reply actions
also back to Kobe
he is my brothers favorite player. Me, I can’t stand him BUT I respect his game. His talent and drive is great enough to the point that he can will his team to victory despite being selfish on the floor.
Can he make plays for other players on his team and does he make guys sharing the floor better when he’s out there with them? Abso-fucking-lutely…when he feels like it.
In this clip he take a bad shot attracts the defenses attention and then with both Derek Fisher and Gasol open waiting for passes he decides to pass it to himself…off the back board. Even after that he can dump the ball to Bynum with the interior pass for a much cleaner look and finish buuuut he’s Kobe, so fuck that. There’s points that need a’scoring so why wouldn’t he finish off an excellent pass to himself?
Don’t get me wrong. It’s highlight material and it’s hilarious and highly skillful and even more impressive that he’s done this soooo many times and no one sees it coming, but it’s also kinda selfish especially when you see Pau there in the corner looking all sad over a pass that never comes.
sreh ladien e' ta janjia
by Lord Smackington on Jan 4, 2012 2:38 PM EST up reply actions
I am recing this big time
1. I love it when the Amare Lovers and the Melo lovers blame each others guy!
2. I love it when both say fuck it and blame D’Antoni
3. I also love it when people who spend all their time talking derisively about roster filler and role players get pissed when those guys don’t play like stars and mess up their shiny new stars.
So big REC Flossy.
NOW kNICKS FANS TRY UNDERSTANDING THIS. TEAM BASKETBALL WINS NOT STARS. What is wrong with the Knicks is that the team is not playing team basketball plain and simple. If the team was actually working as a team then both Amare and Carmelo would work together. They will figure this all out eventually but for now, you will have to love with some shitty basketball.
by Robert Curre on Jan 3, 2012 2:35 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
Rec.
I agree entirely with this post. Personally I do not like Amar’e more than Melo, but if I had to choose I’d give up Melo big time to see a great PG running the show and have an unselfish SF sharing the ball. A team with Melo has to be built around him because he will never adapt to any system, that’s it. Denver played like these Knicks when he was there but he had a better suited supporting cast( a good C, a defensive PF, sharpshooting SG and Billups+Lawson at PG)…look at Denver now: running, ball sharing and active D. FUN.
Maybe I’ll be proved wrong and the TEAM (not only Melo and STAT) will start to click on both sides of the floor…but I’m not optimistic. We’ll see what Baron will bring…but I’m quite sure it won’t be instant chemistry.
by Alessandro Bozzi on Jan 3, 2012 6:36 PM EST reply actions
The problem is Dolan & Amare
It all starts with the summer of Lebron. We couldn’t get him, we had all this money and nothing to show for it. No one really wanted to be the first guy to come here. To that, I give Amare credit. HOWEVER, there was no one bidding against us because his knees were uninsurable and we decided to give him MAX money right off the bat, instead of letting the market set itself. No one said we had to use the cap space on him, but Dolan wanted to make some kind of splash. He finally hires Walsh, someone who actually knows about basketball and forces the Melo trade. All the while Walsh is telling him to relax, we can gte him for less….but he just can’t do it. Remember, those garden renovations cost money and he has to justify cost increases….
Amare averages 1.5 assists per game for his career. He was on a team in Phoenix that encouraged sharing the ball, and just didn’t get it. Sure, he is a dominant scorer in the right situation..but when he doesn’t have the ball in his hands his skills decline exponentially. He’s never been taught to play defense and never been taught a post game. His offense consists of blowing past people, usually slower big men with his right hand. Take that away and he’s left to shoot 20 foot jumpers. He’s only going to get slower as the injuries pile up over the next 3 1/2 years of his contract…so I guess he’ll be exclusively shooting jumpers. He just doesn’t have that high of a basketball IQ.
It’s a shame that we’re waiting for guys like Baron Davis, to come back and “save” us. We thought that about Marbury at one point, just saying….
Instead of spending $20 Mil on Amare we were better off spending 10 & 10 on guys like Felton and Scola and then spending the balance on Melo and Chandler. Everyone would’ve known their place. Unless Amare is willing to take a backseat and reinvent himself, I see nothing better than a Game 6 exit in the second round over the next couple of years.
by Oakleytookmylunchmoney on Jan 4, 2012 3:11 PM EST reply actions
I was kinda with you until that last paragraph
’cause there is no way Melo or Chandler come here just to play with Felton, Gallo, and Scola. We might as well have just kept David Lee.
by flossy on Jan 4, 2012 3:46 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
That's revisionist history
Phoenix was offering him almost the same deal except with a non-guaranteed last year or a stipulation on games played in the last year of the contract or something. The Knicks offered was all 5 years guaranteed. The Bulls wanted him too, but everyone was waiting to see if they could get Bosh and the Knicks pounced.
The Knicks have bid against themselves several times, but this wasn’t one of them. An offer from Phoenix was clearly on the table and the Knicks just added another guaranteed year.
Get The Frickin' Rebound
Would you have signed Amare if you were GM
….or hold onto the money and slowly build a team that made sense?
by Oakleytookmylunchmoney on Jan 5, 2012 9:44 AM EST up reply actions
Donnie Walsh advertised a 2year tear-down with the idea of adding superstar(s) in 2010
There was absolutely no way he was going to keep his job if he came out of the summer with zero marketable free agents.
He wound up losing it anyway, which made no sense.
by Oakleytookmylunchmoney on Jan 5, 2012 11:53 AM EST up reply actions
Okay well how 'bout this, instead of "retiring" after the Carmelo trade
He would have been run out of town by an angry pitchfork-wielding mob if we’d tanked for two years to clear cap space and ended up with nothing but Luis Scola to show for it.
I agree that patience isn't always a virtue of Knick Fans....
But we got swept last year and now have a structurally flawed team. Scola would have been willing to take a back seat, Amare isn’t….
by Oakleytookmylunchmoney on Jan 6, 2012 11:27 AM EST up reply actions
Well hindsight is 20/20
If Walsh had wanted to simply put together a better team of un-flashy but productive players he wouldn’t have held a 2-year fire sale to get rid of Jamal, Z-Bo, Jeffries etc. and their heinous contracts for pennies on the dollar.
He had to blow it up
You need one alpha dog, a sidekick and a bunch of role players to win a championship. Zbo is a sidekick at best and Crawford is a role player. I’m talking about building a real “team” here like chicago
by Oakleytookmylunchmoney on Jan 7, 2012 11:44 AM EST up reply actions
I think the Knicks were smart to sign Amar'e
It was hard to say what would make sense at that point. By signing Amar’e when they had the chance, the Knicks gave LeBron a more attractive situation. If they hadn’t signed Amar’e then, I bet the Bulls would have, and the Knicks would have ended up with Boozer. Actually signing Amar’e and Felton made a lot of sense for them. Giving up Felton to get Carmelo made no sense, I’ll admit, but they did it banking on being able to replace Felton, which they haven’t done yet.
The pre-melo trade Knicks team, with Chandler instead of Turiaf, would be beastly. But if Baron Davis comes back and shines, this one could be even better. (shrug). It is what it is.
Get The Frickin' Rebound
by fuhry on Jan 5, 2012 3:09 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I had the same thought
tho I’ve really always thought that. Felton-Danger-Cock-Mare-T.Chandler with W.Chandler (as a 3 of course) coming off the bench, Douglas, hopefully they still draft Shump and you fill in from there.
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
Amare was an absolute beast for us last year...
he was easily playing like he deserved to get paid as he did. Showed leadership we didn’t necessarily expect and carried us at times by scoring a ton for a good stretch.
That changed since the Melo trade, but just cuz he doesn’t appear worth the money now shouldn’t invalidate how he looked for us last year.
I think they would’ve, it’s a more complete team. Melo wanted to come here no matter what anyway…
by Oakleytookmylunchmoney on Jan 4, 2012 4:35 PM EST reply actions
I seriously doubt it, not even old-ass Grant Hill would sign here as a FA before Amar'e put a new stamp on the team
Melo was ready to sign an extension with the Nets if they’d traded for him. I highly, highly doubt he’d have been “coming home” to play with David Lee or Luis Scola or whoever.
Why not?
Isn’t a Felton, Anthony, Scola, Chandler team a better one than we have now?
by Oakleytookmylunchmoney on Jan 5, 2012 9:46 AM EST up reply actions
yeah.
But Anthony and Chandler coming without Amar’e coming in the first place is pure fantasy. I agree with flossy, he would have gone to NJ, the whole coming home thing is pure bullshit…he came here because our assets gained value after that crazy first half of the season and we were able to trade for him(for which we have to thank STAT) and because we had Amar’e.
The only alternative to this team could have been without Melo and maybe with CP3/ Deron.
Anyway this is not the case, so there’s no use in speculating about different rosters…
by Alessandro Bozzi on Jan 5, 2012 10:17 AM EST up reply actions
Melo was never willing to sign an extension with the Nets
Pure fallacy, he was never going anywhere except to NY. The rest was pure propaganda from Denver, squawking heads trying to make a story and got all the answer fan posters.
He didn’t to go there for the same reason why Deron may ultimately leave, they can’t pull the trigger and get the players… With the Lopez injury putting the kabosh on a Howard deal, they Nyets now just look snakebit.
"Man, I've got vision and the rest of the world wears bifocals."
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
Oh, that's neat
So he let Dolan trade away half our team for no reason! What a swell dude.
He said it himself
He’d have signed the extension if he was traded to Jersey. If we wanted him, we had to trade a big part of our team to get him.
New York Knicks = Sleeping Giants
Davis has proven to be a bit of a shot-chucker at times
hopefully, now that he’s older, he’ll be comfortable playing the “old man J-Kidd” role, except with more drives into the paint.
this is a perfect summation of the state of the knicks
lets hope baron is the answer
im not hopeless anymore i just dont know how to change my name
by hopelessknickfan on Jan 5, 2012 7:39 PM EST reply actions
And rec'd
both for the passion ya show and the desire you created for me to post a few times in the same thread. ;-)
Oh… and I agree with most of it too.
D'Antoni Soon To Go?
Maybe with St. John’s misfortune regarding S.Lavin.
Coach D’Antoni can go replace Lavin and take C.Mullens along with him as his assistant.
Lavin is sick and D’Antoni is sick in his own way.
Perfect for D’Antoni to replace Lavin.
He gets to stay in NYC along with maybe winning at the college level.
If he does not win at the college level, he can have a short train ride to coach in Rucker Park.
The guy has cancer and your advocating Dantoni poach his job?
Never mind the fact that Dantoni still has this job whether you like it or not. Stay classy.
sreh ladien e' ta janjia
by Lord Smackington on Jan 7, 2012 12:26 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Your Right and Wrong
S.Lavin should not be allowed to come back and keep the program hanging.
The priority should be for him to only concentrate on getting healthy first and foremost.
As far D’Antoni taking over, he should not be coaching our Knicks another minute.
I mean it very much so.
The main reason I did not want this season to go through was because of this clown and his whole staff.
It makes me sick to watch the way his attiude takes over controling the team for the worse.
When a coach has a stubborn attitude and the players sense it. It is over for the team. This started last year and has continued along with his B.S. system.
Oh!
okay. that makes sense. It’s totally cool for Dantoni to be fired and take Lavin’s job now while he is trying to beat cancer.
sreh ladien e' ta janjia
by Lord Smackington on Jan 7, 2012 2:39 PM EST up reply actions
Werent you advocating Cole Aldrich a year ago?
How’s that turning out so far?
"Madison Square Garden is the ultimate basketball stage. That's where I belong. That's where I live. That's the home of the New York Knicks." - Amar'e Stoudemire
by Chris Child's Fist on Jan 7, 2012 4:42 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
As Good As Your D'Antoni
Start watching the Timberwolves please.
by Dziedzic on Jan 7, 2012 7:00 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Ahem
So two weeks later and everything I said is still true.
Melo as point-forward is not working at all. Amar’e without any PG is not working at all. As predicted, they have no chemistry as a duo, and their defense is mediocre at best, as usual.
Tyson Chandler remains an orphan on offense and his defense can’t fully make up for the rest of our frontcourt’s disinterest.
Because we spent all our money on those 3 guys we have the worst starting backcourt in the league, by far, as well as the most laughable bench.
A rookie, in his 3rd game, was hearing MVP chants in the Garden, simply for being a competent and energetic player, because that’s how unbelievably abysmal our guard play has been.
Unless Iman Shumpert plays way above his head and Carmelo Anthony shoots the lights out we are the underdog in pretty much any game.
Alas, Baron Davis remains our only hope to salvage a better than mediocre season. And knowing him, watching the Knicks stink up the joint is re-aggravating his back injury.
The Knicks are back baby!
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