Would the Magic take Melo + for Dwight?
by giantg on Dec 7, 2011 12:43 PM EST
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PrintDwight Howard stats: 22.9 pts, 14 rebs, 2.4 bpg
Knicks Christmas List: A center that can move STAT to his true position, rebounding and defense. check check and check
Jim Dolan: Hey Rick. What's shakin'?
Rick De Vos: Gotta move Dwight.
Jim Dolan: That's a low down dirty shame RDV... Let's do this owner to owner, I'll send you Melo, Jerome Jordan, and Shumpty. I'll even throw in a free performance of the Straight Shot at Amway.
Would Orlando?
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Knicks wouldn't, I wouldn't, Magic wouldn't
Knicks would have no one who can score off the dribble.
Melo is a big star and really wanted to be in NY.
Magic would want a big man who can play.
Actually....
Funny thing is…I like what Fields brings to the team so I wouldn’t mind seeing him get some PT. This Shumpert kid also looks like he may have a few surprises up his sleeve. So, why not get them to move the ball and not stop it for the likes of Melo. Between Dwight and STAT…I don’t know that I could think of a much better duo in the middle….Throw in Turiaf to relieve them and we’d have a good problem on our hands. Also…and this is a stretch….but wouldn’t it be nice if he could somehow figure a way to include bringing Patrick back with him in his contract…but, ahhhh…. dare I dream,
working on it
At least this guy realizes that the Magic's owner would rather pass a Kidney stone than
have to guarantee Amar’es contract out of his own bank account. And is Trading Carmelo who has an insured contract instead.
Melo > Dwight
I think Dwight is overrated though
Anxiously awaiting the day my username will be appropriate
You're wrong!
Volume scoring wings are a dime a dozen compared the most—sorry, the only—truly dominant center in the game.
you know that you and I don't see eye-to-eye on Carmelo
so I’m not going to get into that.
However, I disagree with your premise a bit. I agree that there’s probably nothing more dominant than a big man with a dominant post game who can pass. That doesn’t describe Dwight though. That describes Hakeem Olajuwon, Tim Duncan, and Shaquille O’Neal. A big man who can’t truly destroy the defense with his ability to either score inside himself or get an easy look for his teammate is not dominant. In fact, he could very well be a hindrance. Unfortunately, our beloved Patrick Ewing suffered from this somewhat. He never really embraced passing, and I think that might be why Hakeem got a ring and he didn’t. Perhaps you’ve heard Bill Simmons’ theory he dubs the “Ewing Theory” which applies to stars whose teams do as well as or better when they’re not there. I think Ewing’s unwillingness to pass is what gave him that effect.
A good scoring wing can be the best player on a championship team. Ask Larry Bird, Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, and Paul Pierce about that. Even Dirk almost counts as a scoring wing.
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but how does there not being any other dominant centers
make Dwight any better? He will probably dominate the center match-up, but there are quite a few centers in the league capable of playing good enough defense on him.
Anxiously awaiting the day my username will be appropriate
That's weird, because he's been beasting to the tune of 20ppg on 60% shooting for the past few seasons
So who exactly is shutting him down?
If he can lead all centers in scoring, by a lot, while shooting a crazy high percentage, that’s kind of good enough? Considering no other player at any position has even close to the impact he does on the defensive end. 14 rebounds and 3 blocks per 36? Insane.
Dude’s a total game-changer whether or not he can score, which he obviously can, even if his dream shake could use some work.
Did you just ask this??????????????????????????????
Let me parse your question again. “How does Dwight being the only dominating center make Dwight any better?”
WHAT?
Not in terms of “How can we spend our money more wisely?” Dwight right now is the Best of the Best. Mufugga is the Dudikoff of the 5 right now.
Fish Fingers give me a break.
by GAx on Dec 8, 2011 1:24 AM EST up reply actions
Dwight is really not that great a scorer yet
He’s in that awkward no man’s land where he’s a good enough one-on-one scorer in the post that the coach feels obligated to run the offense through him, but he’s not experienced enough to have a proper feel for what he should be doing. Hence the massive amounts of turnovers and horrific passing rates. Plus he takes FOR EVER whenever he gets the ball which allows the defense to completely set. I will say that I think Van Gundy might be doing a disservice to him by having guys just stand around him rather than run a motion offense, but he might be doing that because Dwight is too limited to pass to moving targets.
I’m more or less stating our coach’s opinion on the matter BTW. Mike hardly had Melo post-up at all and in fact didn’t have Shaq post-up for a while when he got to Phoenix in 2008 because Mike believes that it can really hamper your offense unless that post player has a solid Wooden or Triangle offense run around him that he’ll be willing to pass to (I could dig up quotes from interviews where Mike says this). After a month or so, when Shaq was more acclimated to his new teammates, Mike started running the offense through his post game. I don’t know if he’ll start doing that with Carmelo because unlike Shaq Carmelo is useful from other areas of the floor. I think I agree with Mike on this one. There are guys with very sophisticated post games (Al Jefferson, Zach Randolph) who just don’t produce wins for their teams because they are not good passers.
I think Dwight could get there because he’s made a lot of progress the past few years, but there’s solid evidence he hurts his team more than helps it when the offense goes through him. Also, his inability to pass really worries me. That’s the type of thing where either you have a feel for the game or you don’t, and I sense that Dwight doesn’t.
I won’t deny he’s a beast of a rim protector and “paint presence” (there’s really no other term for what Dwight does because I don’t know if the world has seen a physical specimen like Dwight); I’m just not sold on Dwight as a “winner” yet.
Anxiously awaiting the day my username will be appropriate
Plus he takes FOR EVER whenever he gets the ball which allows the defense to completely set.
Unlike Carmelo Anthony, who, uh…
I’m just not sold on Dwight as a "winner" yet.
Well he took a team whose second best player was… Hedo Turkoglu? Rashard Lewis? Jameer Nelson? Somebody second rate, at any case? He took that team to the finals at the age of 23, not bad hmm?
It’s not that you’re wrong that his offensive game isn’t fully developed yet. It’s that despite that fact he’s still able to put up 20+ points on 60% shooting while being, by far, the most dominating defensive player in pro basketball, that makes him a hell of a lot more valuable than Carmelo Anthony or Amar’e Stoudemire.
No, Carmelo does not take as long as Dwight
It was Denver’s and Mike’s MO to play something like seven seconds or carmelo. If you can’t get something good toward the beginning of the shot clock, give it to Carmelo and have him do something. It was his job to isolate at the end of the shot clock. That will probably change next year as Mike will run the offense through Carmelo many possessions. Dwight has the offense run through him, and he does a miserable job of it.
That 2009 Magic team kind of demonstrates what I was talking about. He was probably the most important player on that team and the defensive anchor, but he wasn’t the “heavy lifter” on offense. Rashard Lewis isn’t amazing or anything like that, but he was the best offensive player on that team. Rashard and Hedo were better at getting baskets when they needed baskets. In fact, that team frequently demonstrated that alarming trend of winning a lot when Dwight didn’t score as much.
Anxiously awaiting the day my username will be appropriate
Dwight lead that Magic team in scoring by 3 whole PPG despite being FOURTH in FGA per game
Fourth!!!
He was that team, are you kidding me?
Remember who was their PG in the playoffs?
Rafer fucking Alston. Dwight averaged 20 and 15 on that run to the finals btw.
I dunno
I think you can average the most points without being the best “scorer” in the purest sense. Like, Al Horford averages a lot of points on the Hawks, but no Hawks fan will tell you that he’s someone you can look to for buckets when the game’s on the line. And I don’t mean necessarily the last shot, I mean during a close game during the last 5-10 minutes, no one’s going to trust Al Horford to run every possession through. Amar’e even kind of sort of fitted that mold for us last year since Ray and Gallo were more likely to take the bail-out shots, although amar’e sometimes did too.
Same thing with Dwight. He can get more points in the course of the game through put-backs and stuff like that, but the Magic didn’t put the ball in the hands and expect him to lead them when games were on the line. That job was given to Hedo, Jameer, and Rashard.
Anxiously awaiting the day my username will be appropriate
I think you're getting it INCREDIBLY twisted.
Atlanta fans that don’t think Horford has the game to run the ball up the court are…..Atlanta fans. Atlanta fans don’t even think of Horford as we did David Lee back in the day when we’d run the ball through him in the high post. BUT.But, I would wager that Atlanta fans that know what they’re looking at would be clamoring, CLAMORING, for Horford to have more mid-range shots and otherwise be touching the ball on more possessions than he has been. Dude is efficient and good. He really did up his mid-range game.
Fish Fingers give me a break.
by GAx on Dec 8, 2011 1:30 AM EST up reply actions
Vince Carter and Jameer Nelson were all-star caliber
Hedo had a good year too and Rashard was still pretty good. Just because they suck now is meaningless.
Hedo had a good year...but they suck now?
Hedo’s sucked for the past two years.
Fish Fingers give me a break.
by GAx on Dec 8, 2011 1:31 AM EST up reply actions
Plus he takes FOR EVER whenever he gets the ball which allows the defense to completely set.
Unlike Carmelo Anthony, who, uh…
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!!
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
I don't understand why you guys equate Carmelo's jab stepping with what Dwight does
it’s not the same thing.
I agree that Carmelo should try to be a bit quicker, but it’s not the same thing as holding onto the ball for the majority of the shot clock. Often what keeps players from being black holes is when in the shot clock they isolate. If you isolate in the beginning of the shot clock, you better be quick and you better move the ball. If you isolate later in the shot clock like Carmelo and Amar’e do when we play seven seconds or less, then it’s more okay to go into full iso mode because by that time it’s become less likely that the team offense could have generated a good look. I would still like Carmelo to be more of a ball mover, but he’s actually a pretty low maintenance superstar. He can be pretty useful without having the ball in his hands the majority of the shot clock.
Anxiously awaiting the day my username will be appropriate
If we had a competent threat of a big man not named Amar'e, I don't think the iso's would be much of an issue
Right now teams can and do collapse on Amar’e/Melo because we have no other legitimate threats to make the teams pay for doing so. Turiaf, Burps and Douglas were far too injured last season, RMJ was AWOL all season til parts of the Boston series, E and Landry faded badly, and Bully came on strong but too little too late. This is where at the minimum a Gallo would’ve helped. His sloppy assed drives to the basket were rediculous at times but he also knew how to make them pay by drawing a foul. We have got to hit our three’s and when they’re errant, have guys under the basket who can rebound. That is our missing link. That will spread the floor and loosen up the defenses to allow things to work like iso’s etc. And I’m sure there’s more to it but just my fragmented thoughts
pray tell what is so funny
Anxiously awaiting the day my username will be appropriate
If we are going to trade a star for Howard, it would make much more sense to trade Stat.
"Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."
LET'S GO RANGERS!!!
hate to say it but i would do melo for dwight, especially in light of the fact we have a nice SF in landry thats mature and ready to slip in.
and it would solve our major hole at center………
This is not going to happen
no point even suggesting it.
"I DO THIS" - Carmelo Anthony
Follow @MattyFnRaider
ONE NATION UNDER AL
Respect the reputation or it's an altercation.
I am saying NEVER!
Stat and Melo will not be traded under ANY circumstances.
"I DO THIS" - Carmelo Anthony
Follow @MattyFnRaider
ONE NATION UNDER AL
Respect the reputation or it's an altercation.
Could I dunk from the three point line on the moon?
"I DO THIS" - Carmelo Anthony
Follow @MattyFnRaider
ONE NATION UNDER AL
Respect the reputation or it's an altercation.
XD
"I DO THIS" - Carmelo Anthony
Follow @MattyFnRaider
ONE NATION UNDER AL
Respect the reputation or it's an altercation.
It makes more sense from a basketball standpoint
Melo and Dwight would work better than Amare and Dwight.
Plus Amare played HS ball in Orlando and is well liked there.
A combo of Melo and D-12 would be insanely dirty
Dwight is the ultimate “keeper” in basketball. The guy defends the net like no other player in the league right now and combining that with Melo being top 3 scorers in the league, in the best shape of his life, and having elbow surgery we would have an amazing 1-2 combo. With a ton less pressure to then sign a defensive pg, we could try Nash on a 2 year deal, and then still have cash to acquire another solid role player such as Wilson Chandler, or a two guard.
STAT and Howard would be a nightmare matchup
I can picture it…no team scores more than 15 in a quarter. We lead the league in blocks. And we got some hounds up front ripping the ball away from potential threats before they even try to get into the low block…..REEEEJJEEECCTTIIIOOONNNN!!!!
working on it
a trio of melo stat and dwight be dirtier
Dear fox.... Fire Aikman and buck. they suck
Desean Jackson IS a punk....................UNLEASH Eli
Jason Peire Paul (JPP) 2011-2012 NFL Defensive player of the year
"We’re going to turn this team around 360 degrees." –Jason Kidd
"If you come to a fork in the road, take it" -Yogi Berra
by Lawrence Taylor The Real LT on Dec 7, 2011 7:31 PM EST up reply actions
Uninsured?
Are you sure that wasn’t just the Knicks couldn’t get insurance for the World Championships?
Plus if you are Orlando, its a choice between Amare’s bad knees or Bynum’s bad knees.
No it is insured
That’s why he came here instead of Phoenix. If I recall correctly, offered him 5 years, $96 million with the first 3 years insured. We gave 5 years, $100 million completely insured
KNICKS NOW
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by WSD on Dec 7, 2011 7:50 PM EST up reply actions
it's guaranteed for Amar'e, but it's not insured for the Knicks
but that’s only if he gets a knee injury or eye injury I believe. If he gets out of commission for any other injury, it’s insured.
Anxiously awaiting the day my username will be appropriate
Oh whoops my bad
I get it.
Sorry to flossy for correcting him when I was wrong
KNICKS NOW
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Melo and Dwight would be a cool duo
I’d be down with it; even though I’m not that big on Dwight Howard as a first option scorer, as a second option he’s pretty great even though I still wish he weren’t such a tremendous black hole. I think we’d either get a coach like Phil Jackson to run triangle to take those black hole tendencies away or we’d just put Dwight in the pick and roll.
But Dwight and Amar’e, ew. Dwight is a certified black hole and Amar’e has black hole tendencies. Neither of them is much of a passer or particularly great at creating for himself and others. I question both of their abilities to “put the teams on their backs” as they say. Amar’e is a tremendous flow-of-the-offense scorer, but he’s not exactly a guy that you can just give the ball to for the last few possessions and ask to make things happen. I mean, sometimes he does like when he started to go crazy against the Celtics in the fourth of game 1. But sometimes he does that and it doesn’t work and he just ends up dribbling the ball off his feet a bunch of times. If they don’t let him triple-threat at the left elbow, he can’t do much to create his own shot. Dwight I won’t even get into. He’s even more turnover prone, less likely to pass, plus he’s a horrible free throw shooter.
Anxiously awaiting the day my username will be appropriate
Dwight's jellied bread isn't offense.
It’s his game-changing league-leading Defense. I would LOVVEEEEEEEEEEEEEE Dwight on this team. LOVE it.
Too bad the guy doesn’t like cold weather. But if he comes here I can only imagine the North Face jacket donations toward the Keep Dwight Warm run MSG would have.
Fish Fingers give me a break.
by GAx on Dec 8, 2011 1:34 AM EST up reply actions
If I was 6'6 320 could I play Nose Tackle in the NFL?
"I DO THIS" - Carmelo Anthony
Follow @MattyFnRaider
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Respect the reputation or it's an altercation.
by Ozraider on Dec 7, 2011 5:37 PM EST via mobile reply actions
well ardo u have a good technique?
Dear fox.... Fire Aikman and buck. they suck
Desean Jackson IS a punk....................UNLEASH Eli
Jason Peire Paul (JPP) 2011-2012 NFL Defensive player of the year
"We’re going to turn this team around 360 degrees." –Jason Kidd
"If you come to a fork in the road, take it" -Yogi Berra
by Lawrence Taylor The Real LT on Dec 7, 2011 7:30 PM EST up reply actions
Are you doubting my skills?
"I DO THIS" - Carmelo Anthony
Follow @MattyFnRaider
ONE NATION UNDER AL
Respect the reputation or it's an altercation.
by Ozraider on Dec 7, 2011 7:49 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
do u have "skils"
Dear fox.... Fire Aikman and buck. they suck
Desean Jackson IS a punk....................UNLEASH Eli
Jason Peire Paul (JPP) 2011-2012 NFL Defensive player of the year
"We’re going to turn this team around 360 degrees." –Jason Kidd
"If you come to a fork in the road, take it" -Yogi Berra
by Lawrence Taylor The Real LT on Dec 7, 2011 7:56 PM EST up reply actions
I have so many skills my skills have skills
"I DO THIS" - Carmelo Anthony
Follow @MattyFnRaider
ONE NATION UNDER AL
Respect the reputation or it's an altercation.
by Ozraider on Dec 7, 2011 9:35 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
so u suck?
Dear fox.... Fire Aikman and buck. they suck
Desean Jackson IS a punk....................UNLEASH Eli
Jason Peire Paul (JPP) 2011-2012 NFL Defensive player of the year
"We’re going to turn this team around 360 degrees." –Jason Kidd
"If you come to a fork in the road, take it" -Yogi Berra
by Lawrence Taylor The Real LT on Dec 7, 2011 9:39 PM EST up reply actions
Over at Bleeding Green Nation
Whenever we see a post such as this one, maybe suggesting to trade Vick or fire Reid, we all simply put the letter O in response, so to you sir, I will O.
only thing more overated and soft than osi umenyora is the 2011 eagles
by metseaglesknicks on Dec 7, 2011 6:27 PM EST reply actions
ahh, i remember back in the good ole days
Dear fox.... Fire Aikman and buck. they suck
Desean Jackson IS a punk....................UNLEASH Eli
Jason Peire Paul (JPP) 2011-2012 NFL Defensive player of the year
"We’re going to turn this team around 360 degrees." –Jason Kidd
"If you come to a fork in the road, take it" -Yogi Berra
by Lawrence Taylor The Real LT on Dec 7, 2011 7:26 PM EST up reply actions
(in comic book man voice) worst idea ever
if this was even considered. it be melo straight up for dwight.
this is just, NO.
why would we do that?
Dear fox.... Fire Aikman and buck. they suck
Desean Jackson IS a punk....................UNLEASH Eli
Jason Peire Paul (JPP) 2011-2012 NFL Defensive player of the year
"We’re going to turn this team around 360 degrees." –Jason Kidd
"If you come to a fork in the road, take it" -Yogi Berra
by Lawrence Taylor The Real LT on Dec 7, 2011 7:28 PM EST reply actions
so many reasons to do this...
and none of them have anything to do with melo deficiencies…
1) melo and stat are too similar with similar strengths and weaknesses
2) melo is an asset, as is stat… though stat was the first to take on our challenge and deserves more allegiance than melo.
3) pairing stat and dwight pairs together one of the, if not the best offensive 4 in the league with THE best defensive, rebounding 5 in the league (who is young and healthy).
4) dwight saves stats knees and health and longevity more than melo does
5) trading melo and bringing in dwight maintains cap room next year… for possibly dwill, CP3, or others like felton or mo williams… or even chauncey or shumpert (if he stays and evolves into what we all hope he can).
6) defense still and always wins championships… and dwight is one of the few players who can change a game without needing the ball.
7) dwight can run in d’antoni’s offense, allowing the other 4 starters to stick with SSOL… in fact, it’s the perfect offense for dwight relying on ball movement, fast breaks and PnR’s.
8) melo is a young star that orlando can build around if they so chose.
so i say HELL YEAH…
Other than the fact Stat was the first to come here
And take on the challenge as it were, this would be a no brainer. Get younger and better defensively. Yea everybody says, well aw gee why the hell would orlando take stat… well youe tell me, ya want Bynum, or Stat??? One a superstar, the other the POTENTIAL to be an allstar… sorry id take the proven commodity myself… ya be crazy not to…dont give me Stats injuries cus when was the last time Bynum was healthy plus Bynum is heavier, and i forsee the injuries lingering for his career… not advocating trading Stat at all, just throwin this out there…
Yes, the Magic would take Carmelo
why? He’s signed for the foreseeable future, a ‘star’ and still young. They get something back for him.
The real question is why the fuck would the Knicks do this?
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
a couple of possible reasons
1. Scarcity value: Caron Butler is not Carmelo but I would rather have Howard and Butler than Melo and Turiaf. Really good small forwards are around, really good bigs are not.
2. Defense. Dwight would do what no one has been able to do since Ewing left and Camby was traded; protect the rim.
3. Balance: Get Stat out of the 5 slot, keep him healthier with less risk.
If he doesn’t want to play in NYC all bets are off…
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