The Carmelo Trade Redux
by Robert Currence on Mar 24, 2011 1:08 PM EDT
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I just had a discussion with a buddy of mine who suggested something that I would like to get feedback from you guys about. The biggest complaint about this trade is that it has hurt our depth and left us without a legitimate Center. So my buddy has a proposal for a trade that would solve some of these problems.
How would you guys feel if the Knicks picked up Billups’ option and then traded him. Consider this, Felton has already stated that he wants to sit down with Denver’s management to see where he fits in their long term plans and if he is not going to be there long term he wants to be traded. Denver also is interested in signing Wilson Chandler and if they do that then that likely means that Gallinari will be moved this off-season as well. Mozgov does not play and it is unclear whether he factors in their plans at all.
How would you guys feel if the Knicks traded Billups and say Bill Walker (to match the salaries) for Felton, Gallinari, and Mozgov? That gives you Felton back at the point who has proven that he can run D’Antoni’s offense at the pace he wants it run, Gallinari to help solidify the bench, and Mozgov who was starting for us at Center before the trade and showing signs of progress to play the Center position.
The pros of the trade is that it gives you three players who can help fill some holes in the roster, who were popular with the fan base, and will not negatively effect the 2012 cap space. Also that gives us three players with mid-size expiring contracts that if the Knicks were looking to make trades could be packaged (Gallo, Felton, and Turiaf). So if we decide we absolutely positively got to have Chris Paul, we could package those expiring contracts to get him and still have possible access to the MLE to add another player if needed.
The cons of the trade as I see it, if we were to trade Billups as our major trading piece, could we get more back for him? Felton is having a career year statistically but the thing about career years is you never know if that is a sign of things to come or if that is the best you are ever going to get out of that player. Mozgov was showing progress but he was still nowhere near where we needed him to be as a player, how do we know that he can get there? Secondly given that he is not getting playing time in Denver, how can we be sure that he has not totally regressed and we would have to start over from square one with him? While it is clear that Gallinari could be a useful bench player and an upgrade skill wise over the players on our bench at the moment, can Gallo play off the bench? There are a lot of players in this league who are not really effective coming off the bench. Lastly could Gallo be a more consistent player coming off the bench for us than he had been as a starter? Finally Denver traded Billups for a reason so why would they want him back?
Well I am interested in what you guys think? I also forgot to mention if we have the MLE available to us this trade would not affect that, so we could get 3 players for the rotation and possible use the MLE to add a fourth.
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Why not didn't most pro trade people
say that those three guys are just filler and scrubs? That Billups is better than Felton everyday of the week and twice on Sundays? How is it that these guys were just role players at best and scrubs at the worst when they were Knicks, but now trading a 5 time all-star and finals MVP is not enough to get back 3 scrubs in a trade? Oh I get it, they are not Knicks anymore so now they must be good! LOL
by Robert Currence on Mar 24, 2011 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions
yup
i mean, you dont hold up a trade to get a 5 time all star and finals MVP who is a hometown hero for Moz do you? No way!!!
I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."
Cause they are playing very, very well right now.
That’s why.
Felton is probably expendable with Lawson over there. But Gallinari and Mozgov, no way Denver gives them up after the way the team is playing now. These guys bought in immediately, Denver isn’t going to trade away young talent, and a 7Fter to boot, for Billups, who although Karl loved him, is dead weight with that contract.
Honestly, I didn’t expect Denver to resign him after his contract was up, unless he was willing to take a major pay cut. They wont bring that contract back in now, and also give up young talent to do it. No chance.
Face it, and I really don’t mean this to be a troll or anything. But the Knicks made their bed, you can’t complain if the mattress is a bit lumpy, you’re going to have to lay in it.
With a defensive minded Coach, and the right system, this team has the talent to still be very good. Sadly, I’m not sure the front office is competent enough to put that system together. But we shall see.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
04 + 07 = 11
I don't even think we could trade Melo, Billups
For Gallo, Felton, Mozgov. Denver did a victory lap after destroying us in that trade, and wouldn’t give those guys back.
+1
"Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."
LET'S GO RANGERS!!!
Trades don't have to have a loser!
The entire concept of “trading” exists so that transactions can be mutually beneficial! Neither team would cancel the trade if they could, and neither team should.
"I feel like this: You can't hate me." -Toney Douglas
People often make lopsided trades
I think the Native Americans would like to buy back Manhattan for those shiny beads.
of course they do
and it tends to take a while for final judgments to be valid, like say more than a month
"I feel like this: You can't hate me." -Toney Douglas
by The Rooster on Mar 24, 2011 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The age old philosophy used to say...
“Whoever got the best player in the deal wins the trade”
I think the Carmelo and Dwill trades are putting a damper on that theory.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
04 + 07 = 11
Well of course the Cavs couldn't be criticized
for, let’s say, trading LeBron for Beasley, Wright, Chalmers, and picks last February, knowing what we know now.
It just shows that we can’t obsess over trades having “winners” and “losers.” That assumes that players are faceless commodities and not humans capable of making decisions, a fantasy which gives Berri and many NBA fans hard-ons, but is quite divorced from reality.
The Melo deal will likely be remembered as mutually beneficial in the long run, which was its intent in the first place. Also, it benefited all the players involved, which I think is really nice.
"I feel like this: You can't hate me." -Toney Douglas
Felton's never going back to the Knicks
You’re right that Denver probably won’t be able to keep him, but he took the mid-season trade VERY personal – you could hear the barely-restrained anger in his first interviews here. That bridge is burned.
"You cocky cock! You'll pay for your crimes against humanity!"
"He's like a man with a fork in a world of soup."
yup
:( RAY RAY IM SORRY
"Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."
LET'S GO RANGERS!!!
Dude it's a trade, he gotta go!!
Now he can tell the Knicks to fuck off and the end of the year but if we trade for him he gotta show up.
by Robert Currence on Mar 24, 2011 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions
...and then we trade him again for Chris Paul
And he finally goes apeshit
Would be cool to watch tho
wouldn’t want to get the little pit bull that angry
by Robert Currence on Mar 24, 2011 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions
lmao
Proud Islanders fan, the organization that iced the greatest team to ever play the game and won 4 straight cups. Best overall player in the nhl right now=Pavel Datsyuk.
I'm also an optimistic Knicks fan, pessimistic Mets fan, and a happy Jets fan.
lol. imagine if that happened.
i would need ass-replacement surgey cause i would literly laugh my ass off.
Dear FOX... Fire Aikman
NO Oline in the first!!!!!!!!!
I wrote this sig. So if Chris Broussard says he did. he's lying. infact if Chris Broussard says he wrote any store he's lying
WINNING! Tigerblood
All NY All The Time (Giants,Knicks,Yankees,Rangers,RU)
*Note to all eagles fans*
Your team has never won a SB.
by 56THE REAL LT on Mar 24, 2011 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions
You guys are all bullies!
I would feel terrible if we did that to Ray Ray. I’m still bummed we traded him, I really liked Felton. It’s not often you get a NY PG who says he wants to be a New Yorker for life!
Yeah, I thought felton was a great fit for our team. Wish we could have kept him over chauncey, especially at a very affordable $7mil/yr. But it is what it is.
Proud Islanders fan, the organization that iced the greatest team to ever play the game and won 4 straight cups. Best overall player in the nhl right now=Pavel Datsyuk.
I'm also an optimistic Knicks fan, pessimistic Mets fan, and a happy Jets fan.
agree. but it would still be hilarious
Dear FOX... Fire Aikman
NO Oline in the first!!!!!!!!!
I wrote this sig. So if Chris Broussard says he did. he's lying. infact if Chris Broussard says he wrote any store he's lying
WINNING! Tigerblood
All NY All The Time (Giants,Knicks,Yankees,Rangers,RU)
*Note to all eagles fans*
Your team has never won a SB.
by 56THE REAL LT on Mar 25, 2011 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Y are we
still talking bout this old knicks? Like it or not, they don’t wear blue and orange any more.
The greatest player ever!!!
those who ignore the past
are doomed to repeat it.
I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."
and those who live in the past
are there because they dont care about the future
ITS CALLED DEFENSE! D.E.F.E.N.S.E.! I MAYBE-I MAYBE WRONG...BUT I DOUBT IT!
thats just not true
there is a reason what I said is one of the most famous quotes of all time (although I paraphrased it) and what you said has never been uttered before.
I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."
by gbaked on Mar 24, 2011 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
does typing in a blog comment count as an utter?
I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."
Relax We are getting Paul, Okafor, Mayo and Gasol
Didn’t you hear!
by Robert Currence on Mar 24, 2011 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Billups will be traded
but in a larger trade for Paul, either on draft night or sometime next February.
"I feel like this: You can't hate me." -Toney Douglas
Yes I know and we get Okafor again by trading who?
by Robert Currence on Mar 24, 2011 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Whose?
Really not being a wise ass I forgot. I told my friend about the trade, but I could not come up with the expiring contracts,
Billups
Turiaf -
Fields
Walker
Rautins = 21 mil
Paul + Okafor = 28.8
So we are about 8 mil in contracts short where we gonna get them?
by Robert Currence on Mar 24, 2011 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions
So we trade the whole team
And then have to sign D-Leaguers to fill out a team of Toney,Okafor, Melo, STAT, and Paul? That doesn’t sounds very good.
then we wait till the next year to get the pieces
duh, its all about the future of the franchise.
I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."
Actually we cannot pull off the trade until we find another 8 mil!
That is where I am stuck because the only two other guys left on the Roster are Balkman and Douglas and that only gets u to 3 mil, which still leaves us 5 mil short. But Rooster said it worked in trade machine, but i don’t see how?
by Robert Currence on Mar 24, 2011 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Do Brewer and Azubuike's $7mil total off the books for next year make any difference?
If so, then Turiaf + Billups + Balkman + that= 27mil and all we would need then is a roger mason or anthony carter to make that work(if resigned/sign and trade). If so, it wouldn’t be too much trouble, since we only really use 8-9guys night in and night out now usually.
Proud Islanders fan, the organization that iced the greatest team to ever play the game and won 4 straight cups. Best overall player in the nhl right now=Pavel Datsyuk.
I'm also an optimistic Knicks fan, pessimistic Mets fan, and a happy Jets fan.
No they do not. Even with them off the books we are at 45 mil. We will have to pick up the
of Walker and Billups to trade them. That puts us at 60 mil
by Robert Currence on Mar 24, 2011 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions
we have the contracts to satisfy the 125% + 100k rule
http://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/5873752
"I feel like this: You can't hate me." -Toney Douglas
Thanks Rooster Okay I get it now
We trade every player on our roster not named Anthony or Stoudemire. Get back Okafor and Paul + Plus whom ever we draft in the first round. We have dedicated 66mil in salaries for 5 players. We would still need to find 7 other guys to be at league minimum of 12. But I am sure you have a plan for that correct. Because a team of 3 superstars + one solid role player+ a rookie + 7 D-leaguers and Earl Barron type Journey men does not = Currence being a happy camper. Especially since will will have to resign Paul and will be ridiculously over the salary cap for 2012, and with the new CBA rules might have to deal with a hard cap which would mean no MLE, and only roster exceptions and draft exceptions for the next few years. But now I see how the trade could be pulled off so thanks. I will tell me friend.
by Robert Curre on Mar 25, 2011 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions
We'd have a full MLE, which the Heat did not have
They were still able to sneak Miller and Haslem onto their payroll, but we would likely re-sigh E, Mason, and Jeffries without cutting into the MLE, and then have $6 mil to find an unobtrusive SG to space the floor, plus a couple more role players.
If you don’t want that, what do you want? The plan is to build a championship contender, yet that isn’t good enough for Knicks fans who complain endlessly after every loss. Seriously, what the fuck?
"I feel like this: You can't hate me." -Toney Douglas
and with the new CBA rules might have to deal with a hard cap which would mean no MLE, and only roster exceptions and draft exceptions for the next few years.
This is just a ridiculous assumption. Maybe if the players forget to show up to negotiations and the owners just take everything they want, but that’s not realistic. You’re just repeating the owners’ rhetoric as if it’s gonna happen word for word.
"I feel like this: You can't hate me." -Toney Douglas
Actually it is not. If the hard cap which the owners want in exchange
for the luxury tax is adopted then there will be restrictions in using the MLE. Teams over the hard cap, and with your proposed trade that could be us will forfeit the use of the MLE for that season. Now maybe the owners will agree to keep paying luxury taxes, but I doubt the Billionaires want to keep dishing out their money like that. So I am not saying you are wrong, but I am saying that you should face the possibility that a hard cap could be coming and a trade like this would place in danger of having a paper thin team that cannot survive injuries. What if Paul goes down? You want a rookie or D-league PG running the show? What if Amar’e gets hurt you want Earl Barron in the line up? See bench players are just as vital to championship contenders as the starting five. And with this deal, unless we get a really good rookie who can step in and start we don’t even have a starting five.
by Robert Curre on Mar 25, 2011 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions
A NFL-style hard cap is incompatible with the current salary structure
so owners will ask for a collective percentage cut and/or the de-guaranteeing of existing contracts to some extent. Ultimately the players will agree to one out of those three concessions, probably, and while there will be slight scaling back in other areas, I don’t expect radical changes. Any hard cap would probably come in the form of increased luxury taxes, and it wouldn’t be able to come into effect now (because some teams like the Lakers would already be over the hard cap, and wouldn’t have any way to get under other than dumping some contracts on low-salary teams, which is really hard).
Only a couple owners pay the luxury tax as it is (Cuban, DeVos, Holt – I think that’s it, with Dolan and Allen being willing, and Buss situationally willing). That’s not gonna be the main issue on the table, and the six owners I just listed will likely push for a smaller percentage of revenue going to the players, rather than a hard cap.
Point is, assuming that a NFL-style hard cap is on the way is senseless. Walsh did not operate under that assumption because to do so would be a Bluth-esque huge mistake.
As far as your last point goes, we don’t have a starting five now either. The trade in question would give us a reliable center and would allow us to get a SG one way or another. We could find a veteran willing to take the minimum, or we could sign someone like Shannon Brown to a MLE-sized contract.
"I feel like this: You can't hate me." -Toney Douglas
Too many teams
rely on luxury-tax money for there to be a hard cap. No matter what the salary structure is, there are still the same amount of players in the league, virtually assuring that 50% of teams (usually more) aren’t going to have a team that can be marketed to the casual fan (Pay $200 so your family can come see Al Jefferson and the Jazz take on Andrea Bargnani and the Raptors!). Those teams are going to need the tax money that the Lakers, Celtics, Magic, and Knicks won’t mind paying.
"But when he saw it, he just put his hands up and they couldn’t give it to him. It just fell to the ground, I-I don’t, you know … So, that showed me he had great experience..." - Jeff Van Gundy
by Anthony Bonner's Subpoena on Mar 26, 2011 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions
why isn't this in the news yet!!
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
For real? Good sources?
Proud Islanders fan, the organization that iced the greatest team to ever play the game and won 4 straight cups. Best overall player in the nhl right now=Pavel Datsyuk.
I'm also an optimistic Knicks fan, pessimistic Mets fan, and a happy Jets fan.
Congratulations
You’ve succeeded in making me even more depressed! The Nuggs were the ones that insisted on including Billups. Yeah, right – they’d take him back and give us all our guys back.
They undervalued our assets and made us believe it. They got us scared to lose out on Melo to the Nets and took us for everything we had except Fields. Now, they are realizing that they got several very good players.
No, they will not be undoing the heist just to get their old aging point guard back.
Your idea
turns the trade into basically Melo for Chandler and Bully. They said no to that, remember?
LOL! not my idea, but they get to keep Koufos
And the like 9 draft picks we gave them. Actually it was 2 second rounds and our first rounder in 2014 and 2016! But who is keeping score.
by Robert Currence on Mar 24, 2011 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Really, all those picks?
Damn. The Nuggets should get executive of the year.
Coach of the year to the Bulls or Spurs coach.
MVP- Dwight Howard.
Really that is not that bad afterall
what can you get with Second Round picks? And When we win the Championship in 2014 and again in 2016 Denver will be picking last in the first round!
by Robert Currence on Mar 24, 2011 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions
You can get Landry Fields with a 2nd round pick!
Or manu Ginobili, or Carlos Boozer or many other good picks. But yeah, I’m not fretting too much about our lack of 2nd round picks in 2014 and 2016
Why be depressed! probably would never happen, but I was curious
Now that we have Burps and Melo, do we even want those guys back if Denver was willing to give them up!
by Robert Currence on Mar 24, 2011 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions
why be depressed?
its the Knicks! We know the drill, same old shit.
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
Gave Away Too Much
We have a team that does not play defense and that is -12 in the rebound department. You can’t play defense against some of the big guys in the league if you have just traded every player you had who was over 6ft8in. So, it is no wonder that, in the 4th quarter, when the other team tightens up their defense, we crumble. Stoooood is a good player, but clumsy with the ball, certainly not a player who can score at will. Carmelo is talented, but no where near a game changer. Besides, he needs someone to get him the ball, and he needs to get the ball to Stooood. We were a much better team without Carmelo than with him. Maybe another “superstar” is coming next year, but this year we stumble into the playoffs, barely, and then say a quick adios.
"It's a cookbook!"---The Twilight Zone
Defending big guys was a problem before we made the trade too. Don't forget that. And it's too early to determine if the trade was good or not, no matter how much some people like declaring one way or the other.
Proud Islanders fan, the organization that iced the greatest team to ever play the game and won 4 straight cups. Best overall player in the nhl right now=Pavel Datsyuk.
I'm also an optimistic Knicks fan, pessimistic Mets fan, and a happy Jets fan.
***The following words are not meant to offend the poster of this fanpost***
I will not read this because tis trade can’t be re-done or fixed. this is what we got, this team is set to win in the future. i would not take these past 5 or 6 games so heavilly. there is little chance we don’t make the playoffs, so these few games we have left, and the several games that just passed are more like exabition games. they are games that we need to use to get together for a playoff run. i agree we need to atleast get better, but i like who we got, i like what we are. but i hate the heat and fuck you lebron james
Dear FOX... Fire Aikman
NO Oline in the first!!!!!!!!!
I wrote this sig. So if Chris Broussard says he did. he's lying. infact if Chris Broussard says he wrote any store he's lying
WINNING! Tigerblood
All NY All The Time (Giants,Knicks,Yankees,Rangers,RU)
*Note to all eagles fans*
Your team has never won a SB.
No offense was not orignially my idea, my buddy was too chicken to post it so I said i would take the
heat so it’s all cool baby boy!
by Robert Currence on Mar 24, 2011 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions
and its fine and all, but i'd rather focuss on the playoffs and leave this for after we win the championship
Dear FOX... Fire Aikman
NO Oline in the first!!!!!!!!!
I wrote this sig. So if Chris Broussard says he did. he's lying. infact if Chris Broussard says he wrote any store he's lying
WINNING! Tigerblood
All NY All The Time (Giants,Knicks,Yankees,Rangers,RU)
*Note to all eagles fans*
Your team has never won a SB.
by 56THE REAL LT on Mar 24, 2011 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions
you’re out of your gord Currence
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
Wouldn't be the only one around here.
After all I am still trying to find the guy who makes 8 mil on our roster who is going in the Paul/Okafor trade on draft day!!!! LOL
by Robert Currence on Mar 24, 2011 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions
But that may be the idea, pay Jeffries 8 mil so the salaries match!!!!
by Robert Currence on Mar 24, 2011 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions
yea, cause the hornets are gonna wanna pay JJ 8 mil
Dear FOX... Fire Aikman
NO Oline in the first!!!!!!!!!
I wrote this sig. So if Chris Broussard says he did. he's lying. infact if Chris Broussard says he wrote any store he's lying
WINNING! Tigerblood
All NY All The Time (Giants,Knicks,Yankees,Rangers,RU)
*Note to all eagles fans*
Your team has never won a SB.
by 56THE REAL LT on Mar 24, 2011 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions
for the honor of trading us chris paul and oakafor no less!
I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."
lol
Dear FOX... Fire Aikman
NO Oline in the first!!!!!!!!!
I wrote this sig. So if Chris Broussard says he did. he's lying. infact if Chris Broussard says he wrote any store he's lying
WINNING! Tigerblood
All NY All The Time (Giants,Knicks,Yankees,Rangers,RU)
*Note to all eagles fans*
Your team has never won a SB.
by 56THE REAL LT on Mar 24, 2011 8:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Welll yea
I guess you’re not as out of your gord as others
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
I feel like we've been over this in multiple threads
do you know what the 125% + 100k rule is?
"I feel like this: You can't hate me." -Toney Douglas
This trade debate is starting to get ridiculous
I still do not understand why people are still having their periods because we are not championship contenders immediately. The whole premise of the trade was for the future nobody said we were pulling the trade to win this year, we knew we were gutting our roster but it’s not like we were contenders before the trade anyway.
Everybody knew this would take time. I seriously cannot take these retarded arguments any more.
We have an incomplete team, Those guys are gone get the fuck over it and be part o the solution not part of the problem.
S&BP - I know absolutely nothing about this guy but if he is fast I say sign him up.
S&BP - No Love cos the Raiders only break hearts, crush dreams, fracture parts.
P&T - That's what She-Will Said.
by Ozraider on Mar 24, 2011 6:17 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Fuck that blatant revisionsism
The whole premise of the trade was for the future nobody said we were pulling the trade to win this year, we knew we were gutting our roster
Trading a bunch of young cheap talent for an established max-salaried ‘superstar’ is what we call a “win now” move. Months of dick-riding a player who wasn’t on our team as the savior for our franchise has so far culminated in a pretty shitty basketball product with limited upside due to having no more money and few draft picks and trade chips left, so yeah people have a right to be pissed until this team delivers on the hype and starts winning some goddamn games. We didn’t ‘know’ we were gutting the roster, and in fact we wouldn’t have had to gut it at all if somebody didn’t have to have his giant extension right fuckin’ now. If this move wasn’t supposed to pay off until next year, then we could have fucking waited until this summer to get Melo! People are pissed because we got bent over unnecessarily and now have to live with the consequences.
by flossy on Mar 24, 2011 8:04 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
you could have taken the time to understand the reasons for trading now
but fuck that! You can be ANGRY!
"I feel like this: You can't hate me." -Toney Douglas
by The Rooster on Mar 24, 2011 10:18 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Prove me wrong
or peddle the condescending bullshit somewhere else
Acquiring Billups' contract gives us an extra 10 mil in trade flexibility
Being over the cap gives us a $6 mil MLE.
These numbers may change with the new CBA (usually this is implied, but knowing you…) but there’s no reason to assume they’ll be adjusted in a way that will hurt us more than it hurts other teams. The point is that the financial advantage we gained by trading for Melo now will stay roughly the same after the CBA, even if the actual numbers are adjusted.
See, the whole “The CBA could change!” argument is used fallaciously by those, you for instance, who want any way to say the Knicks are fucked. The CBA will change for everyone and it could just as easily give us an advantage. If you accept that life after the CBA is largely an unknown, the only way to rationally progress until that point is to make moves that give you advantages under current conditions.
Prove me wrong, with something other than your special little dingleberries of alarmism and negativity plucked out of a much larger picture you choose to ignore.
"I feel like this: You can't hate me." -Toney Douglas
Trade flexibility?
Give me a break. You cannot seriously believe hat a potential trade package built around:
- the expiring contract of (the soon-to-retire) Chauncey Billups
- average rotation-players Toney Douglas and Landry Fields
- a bunch of below-replacement level scrubs
- zero draft picks
Beats a trade package built on some combination of:
- the expiring contract of Raymond Felton
- stud prospect and above-average wingman Danilo Gallinari (also essentially an expiring contract if the trading team doesn’t want to keep him)
- ultra-high-upside big man Anthony Randolph (also essentially an expiring contract if the trading team doesn’t want to keep him)
- attractive big man prospect Timofey Mozgov (also essentially an expiring contract if the trading team doesn’t want to keep him)
- Landry Fields, Toney Douglas
- multiple first round draft picks
If Carmelo had signed outright in the offseason, we’d have had a ton of great trade chips left regardless of what the new CBA brings. Now we don’t. So there, you’re wrong. Sorry! I know the voices in your head your sources tell you Chris Paul is riding in here on a magic carpet, but as I’ve said before—if your argument in favor of the trade is the vanishingly small possibility that that actually happens, you have no argument. There is really no way around the fact that the most advantageous way for Carmelo to join the Knicks would have been as a free-agent addition to the existing core. And until this new team starts actually, you know, winning… I will continue to believe that the price we paid outweighs the benefits of Melo’s talent.
true
Dolan got so scared of losing him to the Nets that he gave them everything they were asking for and more. I guess he got convinced that Anthony was signing that extension one way or the other and wasn’t going to free agency. And rather than risk losing to his nemesis proky, he gutted the team.
and then porky turned around
and got the better player!
I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."
Not sure if he's better
but at least he would have been better at replacing Felton!
excuse me, I think I’m going to be sick!
Oh, I think he's definitely better
And would have been a much better fit. He’s a more efficient scorer, better three point shooter, better defender, obviously many, many times better passer… An elite PnR point guard would make this offense hum in a way that no iso-centric SF scorer, no matter how talented, ever will.
We also probably would still have either
Gallo, Chandler or Mozzie. Any one of them would definitely help
homerism aside, Melo>D-will
Proud Islanders fan, the organization that iced the greatest team to ever play the game and won 4 straight cups. Best overall player in the nhl right now=Pavel Datsyuk.
I'm also an optimistic Knicks fan, pessimistic Mets fan, and a happy Jets fan.
pretty homerific there
I’d take DWill any day of the week over Carmelo. Especially if we’re talking about either-or being brought to NY.
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
i disagree
before the trade, and after the trade…
I also think he would be maybe the best PG in the nba to play in Mike D’s system.
I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."
I'll disagree with you guys, but maybe I just am underrating passing abilities or overrating scoring prowess.
Proud Islanders fan, the organization that iced the greatest team to ever play the game and won 4 straight cups. Best overall player in the nhl right now=Pavel Datsyuk.
I'm also an optimistic Knicks fan, pessimistic Mets fan, and a happy Jets fan.
D-Will's a pretty damn good scorer
If he decided to shoot more often and not look to get 8-10 assists, he could average probably 25 ppg. In D’Antoni’s system he could average 20-10 by accident
What's the point?
Like I said, you pull the most negative explanation out of a basket full of them. It’s impossible to argue with you because you’re openly dishonest and refuse to look through any pair of glasses except for the shit-tinted ones.
Reducing Landry to an average rotation player is insulting. The scrubs are expiring contracts. You don’t make mention of the cap relief they get from Okafor’s deal, which only one other team (Dallas, who can’t make the numbers work) is realistically willing to take on. And Timo is suddenly such a more attractive prospect than Toney, never mind that they’re the same age and Toney’s infinitely more productive.
You’re completely neglecting the Okafor aspect. If we waited until free agency to get Melo, we would not have the ability to take on Okafor’s deal, which is more valuable to New Orleans than any of our prospects. If you don’t understand this, you’ve been living under a rock since the last CBA was agreed upon.
"I feel like this: You can't hate me." -Toney Douglas
you're also forgetting the MLE
trading for Melo now essentially gave us $6 mil in free cap space this offseason.
"I feel like this: You can't hate me." -Toney Douglas
No I am not forgetting the MLE.
However until the new CBA is worked out it is unclear that we will have the MLE available to us. You know that one of the changes the owners have proposed is a hard cap. Now while the MLE will still exist, neither side wants it off the table. One of the proposed changes is that if a hard cap is adopted that teams over the hard cap or in danger of going over it, will not be eligible to use the MLE. So we have to see if the hard cap is adopted, what the cap for next year will be and whether we will be eligible to use the MLE. We fans cannot act as if there is not going to be a lockout unless the two sides can agree on the CBA terms. And the hard cap is wanted by the owners more than every other provision.
by Robert Curre on Mar 25, 2011 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions
yo, like I said, it's unfair to make those assumptions
and in a negotiation, both sides tend to make their most radical proposals early. Especially labor negotiations that attract public interest. This has been documented in countless studies. The owners will push for a hard cap, but they will certainly negotiate from there. The new CBA will still be owner-friendly but the idea that a NFL-style hard cap will be implemented and that will be that is absurd.
"I feel like this: You can't hate me." -Toney Douglas
Why would you assume that NO wants to trade Okafor
even if they are in full rebuild mode after this season, look at the college game right now. The chances of NO getting the next Chris Paul or a close facsimile in the next two or three drafts is far more likely than getting an Okafor. In fact because quality Bigs are harder to come by these days than good or even decent young point guards especially in the draft, why trade him? He is still young enough that they can kepp him through a rebuild and still get 4 or 5 productive years out of him afterwards. Yes Paul is probably a lost cause for them, and they would be smart to follow utah and Denver’s example to trade him and get talent and future picks back. But Frankly unloading Okafor would be penny wise and dollar foolish. If you look at how the draft has been going in the last few years, it will be easier for them to find a quality point guard in the draft than a Center. So they unload him for what only to overpay somebody 2 or three years down the line who may not even be as durable or good. i think they keep Okafor.
by Robert Curre on Mar 25, 2011 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Okafor has one of the three worst contracts in the NBA
The Hornets would unload him for nothing in a heartbeat. Also, dumping Okafor and Paul now allows them to get a high lottery pick in 2012, so it really expedites their rebuilding prospects.
"I feel like this: You can't hate me." -Toney Douglas
by The Rooster on Mar 25, 2011 7:06 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
If Okafor's contract is that bad why do we want it?
That’s BS. Look at the reality Rooster. It will be easier to replace Paul through the draft than it will Okafor. look at the guards who have been drafted since Paul, you could swap out any of them for Paul and NO would not complain. Derrick Rose for Paul, Russell Westbrook for paul, hell Steph Curry for Paul. The way the college game is going, 3 or more quality point guards come out of the draft every year. the Odds of NO landing one is not that remote. Big men few and far between. Secondly why do they do that trade again, cap relief? Seems to me that if NO was gonna rebuild on the cheap they would want draft picks. And have you stopped to think that Other teams may have more attractive packages. Simply because a trade works on the trade machin does not mean that a trade could be done in real life.
by Robert Currence on Mar 25, 2011 9:01 PM EDT up reply actions
It will be easier to replace Paul through the draft than it will Okafor.
whaaat??!!! It will be easier to replace the best PG in the league than it will a league average center who’s three years older?
and yes, they do it for cap relief. The Hornets are owned by the NBA for fuck’s sake. They barely fill their arena enough to satisfy the terms of their lease, and the new owner will want to rebuild the franchise’s image in Seattle or Las Vegas or Kansas City. Dumping Okafor’s contract is infinitely more valuable than a couple lottery picks, to the Hornets. Just last June they dumped the 11th overall pick to save like 2 mil. What they wouldn’t do to save the 35 mil left on Okafor’s contract…
during last year’s Paul rumors the holdup was that New Orleans couldn’t find any team willing to give them expirings for Okafor’s contract. you’re underestimating how big of a deal this is.
"I feel like this: You can't hate me." -Toney Douglas
In other words
Your justification for the trade is to desperately hang your hopes on the possibility of the most lopsided trade in league history going in favor of the Knicks. I think you need to take a deep breath, step away from the trade machine, and make peace with the fact that it’s okay to love Carmelo and still acknowledge that this trade was Isiah-esque in its short-sightedness.
Drop the fantasy
that a potential Paul trade is as simple as value for value.
If you’re unwilling to consider the value of the Knicks taking Okafor’s contract, then you’re cheating yourself. You’re being stubborn as fuck, and not even considering viewpoints that don’t correspond with your fetish of seeing Melo fail. (don’t bother arguing that one, let’s stick to the trade.)
"I feel like this: You can't hate me." -Toney Douglas
by The Rooster on Mar 25, 2011 7:06 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Again
You believe that the Knicks will land Chris Paul and Emeka Okafor for Chauncey Billups, Landry Fields, and whoever… and I’m the one fantasizing.
this is why you're a shitty poster
we’re discussing the importance of the players’ contracts (and Paul’s desire to leave) ad nauseam, but you just mention the names of the players as if it’s a straight value for value deal, which is idiotic.
"I feel like this: You can't hate me." -Toney Douglas
No
You’re grasping at straws to justify a bad trade. The deal you propose for the Hornets would be a franchise-ender. They can barely draw a crowd as is and they have the best PG in the league. It really doesn’t matter how much salary they save if they’d have to fold the franchise afterward. Moreover, while the league owns the team it will not make a trade that lopsided from a small-market team on the verge of death to the Knicks. But you feel free to keep Chris Paul in your spank bank.
Pay Okafor now or over pay maybe some schmuck with even less talent later.
You keep Okafor because actually Paul is easier to replace. There are 9 guards who have come out after paul in subsequent drafts who can approach his productivity. So the odds of them finding another one given enough draft picks is not that bad. However, how many sold double double big men are there that come out of the draft every year?
by Robert Currence on Mar 25, 2011 9:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Am I really arguing with someone who believes Okafor is a valuable commodity to the post-Paul Hornets?
Really? The modern NBA does not work like that. Are you familiar at all with the Hornets’ ownership situation? The horrible state of their finances? Their arena lease deal?
"I feel like this: You can't hate me." -Toney Douglas
i think part of what was making landry special
was that he fit in with the chip on your shoulder team we had
Reducing Landry to an average rotation player is insulting.
I am concerned that on this team he doesnt fit as well as he did and is being reduced to a 2nd round pick. The team we had to start was a young team that was working together. We dont have that anymore and it doestn fit in with Landrys skills.
I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."
He's also hitting the rookie wall
and struggling to find his way with the new Knicks, like everybody. Doesn’t take away from what he did earlier this season.
"I feel like this: You can't hate me." -Toney Douglas
And for what it's worth
Landry Fields is an average rotation player on most teams. The fact that he has vastly outperformed expectations as the 39th overall pick does not change that fact. Neither does the fact that we all love him.
And of course Mozgov is a more valuable prospect. 7’1" athletic centers with a great motor and some actual skill are a far rarer commodity than 6"2" shooting guards (combo guard, if we’re feeling generous).
Toney's ceiling is higher than Mozzy's
Mozzy is most likely a bottom-tier starting center at best. Toney is somewhere in between young Billups and prime Bobby Jackson, at his best. Mozzy isn’t infinitely more valuable at all; for all we know he won’t ever become a consistent contributor, which Toney already has done.
shit-tinted glasses. ffs.
"I feel like this: You can't hate me." -Toney Douglas
i cant even remember the last any-tier starting center we had
camby?
Have we even had a center on the team since then? Curry?
I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."
Yea
He’s the one I’m most upset about losing. That guy is going to be good, too.
"But when he saw it, he just put his hands up and they couldn’t give it to him. It just fell to the ground, I-I don’t, you know … So, that showed me he had great experience..." - Jeff Van Gundy
by Anthony Bonner's Subpoena on Mar 26, 2011 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions
You do realize that with each passing loss you lose more and more
credability
by Robert Currence on Mar 26, 2011 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Pssh
Currence, we all know this trade wasn’t supposed pay of until 2014 at the earliest!! Why are everyone’s panties in such a bunch?
we were supposed to be a cohesive unit a month after the trade!
never mind that the old Knicks failed to do this, even though they had an entire training camp and preseason schedule!
"I feel like this: You can't hate me." -Toney Douglas
We have teh superstahs now
Carmelo makes his teammates better, doncha know?
I actually just went back and looked
And by the end on November that team was 10-9 and in the midst of what would be 13 wins in 14 games. True they had training camp but they had to fit together an entirely new team. Only 4 rotation members actually remained.
Now we’re just trying to fit in two players, albeit with huge roles, but still. This team has no camraderie (spelling?), and have a below .500 record against mostly beatable teams
if I'm losing credibility because of regular season losses a month after the trade
then I don’t care what you think in the first place, because you’re just looking for a reason to be angry, rather than looking at this rationally.
"I feel like this: You can't hate me." -Toney Douglas
I understand this......
But what I dont understand is how Melo is to blame. Maybe he didnt exactly help our position, but at the end of the day Melo didnt negotiate a single piece of this deal. Dolan allowed us to get raped, not Donnie, not Melo, Dolan. So if you wanna have a beef, it should be with him for not letting DWDWDWD (Donnie Walsh Do What Donnie Walsh Do.) That is the confusing part of this for me.
The Triple Felt Goose movement shall live as long as I am around.
by JerzeeBalla on Mar 24, 2011 11:37 PM EDT up reply actions
The entire point of trading for Melo
was that he was going to use his leverage to get the Knicks a deal at below market value. Otherwise, why bother with a trade, since he was due to be a free agent this summer anyway?
But instead, he ended up deciding he didn’t really want the Knicks to play hardball, he allowed Dolan to think there was a legit possibility that he’d sign with the Nets, and voila, whiskey JIm trades away half our team ‘cause he’s a moron, and somehow despite having leverage the Knicks end up paying above market value. So yes, I do blame Jim Dolan. But to say that Melo “didn’t exactly help our position” is a huge understatement. And it kind of leaves a bad taste in my mouth that when push came to shove, Melo wanted his money more than he wanted to play for a team with any depth so he stood back and allowed the pillaging to happen. I don’t blame him for wanting money but as far as I’m concerned if that was his highest priority he could have spent the next four years cashing Prokhorov’s paychecks and we’d have been just fine. Not only should we have called him on his bluff, he shouldn’t have been bluffing us in the first place.
by flossy on Mar 25, 2011 8:27 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I look at it this way
Melo wanted to go to the Knicks, but didn’t want to piss off all of Denver like LeBron did, so he actually sided with Denver in the negotiations. He played hardball with us instead of playing hardball with Denver.\
Wow, I started typing this response thinking that it wasn’t Melo’s fault. But you know what? It kind of was. But I think he wanted to go to NY so bad, and wanted his extension so bad, that he was afraid the Nuggets were going to call the bluff and just not trade him.
Dolan was afraid of losing Melo to the Nets. Carmelo was afraid of losing his extra millions. Josh Kroenke and Ujiri had balls.
Yeah
I hate to be the bitter guy around here but we really did get hosed in this deal when you think about it, and unfortunately the player we traded for was somewhat complicit in that hosing. I’m sure (or at least II hope) that sooner or later we’ll play better and people like me will get over it, but as long as we’re still struggling it’s hard not to view the team through the lens of the trade and come away a bit miffed.
and on top of it
the whole reason he was in this mess was because he signed a contract that was one year longer then his counterparts.
If he had done what the rest of his draftmates had done, he would have been a FA last year and gotten what he wanted when he wanted it. Everyone knew that the CBA was done after this year. Everyone knew what LBJ and Wade and Bosh had signed…
he CHOSE to do something different, then when time came around he was mad he did and foced the issue to get what he wanted.
He made his bed, then made us lay in it.
I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."
sign me up...
for this trade. wilson had 6 blocks vs. the spurs last night… and ray ray was + 16.
i know, never ever ever gonna happen… but it’s like that girlfriend you break up with… that you just wanna sleep with a few more times.
But unfortunately she's probably happy fucking other guys
Strangest P&T analogy I’ve ever been apart of.
But yeah those Knuggies are pretty awesome. They play with heart and energy and they are in attack-mode all game long. Felton was awesome last night and Wil-Chan hit the game-winner technically
so sad but true...
we did them dirty and now they’re livin’ it up… we’re old news to those guys while we’re still looking at old photos.
by bucketsncents on Mar 25, 2011 6:42 AM EDT up reply actions
If you did...
IT would have you bent over as well.
What I Don't See From Melo ...
Whatever one wants to believe as to who was bluffing the most (I happen to think it was Melo and Denver and moron Dolan, with Isaiah in his ear, fell for it hook-line and sinker), my real problem is what I see now. I don’t see a burning desire in Melo to win. It seems like he was hellbent on getting to NY so that he could get his cash before a potential lockout, get his wife to a major media center, have the lights and excitement of NYC, etc., etc. What I don’t see is that Melo REALLY wanted to come to NY because he believed he could contribute in a big way to taking the Knicks to a championship-level team. I’m not saying he’s a Marbury or Curry but, at the same time, I just don’t see the type of burning desire to win that one sees in the true superstars of this league like Kobe, Garnett, Wade and even Lebron. Whether D’Antoni is the coach or not over the next couple years, I think we’ll get points out of Carmelo and that’s about it.
seeing him through the same filter...
forget talent… where’s the will and the fire… and the appreciation for getting what he wanted?
by bucketsncents on Mar 26, 2011 8:10 AM EDT up reply actions
I wish I had the clicker Adam Sandler had in Click
just re-do it all man. Re do it all.
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
I still sometimes think this is all a nightmare...
and I’ll wake up and find it never happened. If only…
I love how people hate the trade, and only a few weeks ago it was the greatest thing of all times. This idea that the Knicks were a contender before Melo, in a mediocure eastern conference, is just not true. We all saw what they were capable of when they first acquired him so, lets not get crazy just yet.
ITS CALLED DEFENSE! D.E.F.E.N.S.E.! I MAYBE-I MAYBE WRONG...BUT I DOUBT IT!
though many of us have hated it from the moment it became an idea...
i for one proposed a d will trade a week before the nets swiped him.
by bucketsncents on Mar 26, 2011 8:09 AM EDT up reply actions
the trade sucked a few weeks a go too.
and I don’t care that the Knicks weren’t contenders before the trade.
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
Since you joined P&T 2 weeks ago
You should probably just speak for yourself
Also will add...
that even if we weren’t contenders before the trade, we had a brighter future with much more upside potential in many of our players and many more options to add other pieces than what we’re stuck with right now.
Plus, we enjoyed watching the pre-trade team more than what we have now, win or lose honestly.
Got yer back on this one
Plus, we enjoyed watching the pre-trade team more than what we have now, win or lose honestly.
Very true
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