Postmortem
I said before the series started that the Knicks would have to get some big performances from Toney and Landry if they were going to have a chance in this series. Well, not only did that not happen, but Amar'e and Chauncey got hurt, while the Celtics' health (with the exception of a marginally significant Shaq) remained pristine. Game over. Now what? The Knicks should improve a lot with some time together but they also have gaping holes on their team.
Some points:
1. Toney Douglas is not our starting point guard of the future, and he may not even be our backup point guard of the future.
2. The guys we could sign in free agency this year probably aren't either.
3. Chauncey Billups is probably not worth 14 million next year.
4. Chauncey Billups' 14 million expiring deal is probably more likely to get us our point guard of the future than anyone we'd sign with whatever cap room we'd have by not signing him. Plus we'd probably win more games next year picking up the option than not.
5. We are not going to know who we draft until well after we make the decision whether or not to pick up Chauncey's option.
6. It appears that Landry Fields might be more suited to back up Carmelo at small forward rather than start at shooting guard alongside him.
7. Ronny Turiaf is pretty good but his knee isn't. The Knicks sorely need a big man that can contribute major effective minutes.
So, what do we have to work with?
A. Free agency. The mid-level, whatever that turns out to be, plus a possible chunk of money if we don't pick up Chauncey's option.
B. The draft. We pick 17th in the first round. No picks in the second round. Next year, no first rounder.
C. Trades. Landry, Toney, or Extra E might have some value on the market.
In other words, not very much.
What then, is the strategy?
Well..... First of all, I would pick up Chauncey's option. At first I was against it, but I don't think they'll get anywhere near as good a player if they try to replace him with a free agent, and I don't think the team can play at a consistently high level with Toney Douglas at the point. You can attempt to make Carmelo into a point guard, and that seems to make some sense, but relying on that is a bad gamble. I say, bring Chauncey back and the worst case scenario is that Chauncey is your point guard. The best case scenario is that his expiring gets traded for Chris Paul.
I would go after a guard in the draft. I just think that picking 17th, the chances of getting a big man that can contribute immediately better than She-will is unlikely. I think it's possible you can get an impact player guard at 17 that may have fallen through the cracks a bit. Depending on who's available, picking a shooting guard or a point guard would work. A point guard might be able to develop backing up Chauncey and that would be nice. A shooting guard would give us a shooting guard.
Now, as for a big man - yes, the Knicks need a center. So do 20 other teams. The guys that are available are going to be heavily pursued and expensive. I would love to see the Knicks get Marc Gasol, Tyson Chandler, DeAndre Jordan, or Sam Dalembert. But honestly, I just don't see how this is going to happen. How can the Knicks pay for those guys? By relinquishing Chauncey? It might get them enough space - might. But then who is playing point guard? Toney Douglas? Some rookie they draft? Anthony Carter, Carmelo Anthony? Another problem with signing one of those guys is that they're going to be expensive and take a multi-year deal. What does that do to our flexibility? We could try to work out a trade for a big man, but our trade chips are few and probably diminished in value this postseason.
Unfortunately, the more realistic option is that the Knicks bring in a low price veteran power forward. They're more plentiful and can be had for a low price. Even a guy like Kurt Thomas would be very helpful for the Knicks. Then, you bring in Jerome Jordan from overseas, get Ronny some sort of knee operation and hope for the best.
Conclusion:
I could be wrong, but the Melo trade, as it happened, left us without a whole lot of flexibility to add major pieces. I'm sure we will see some additions and subtractions, but the impact type of stuff everyone is talking about seems unrealistic to me. We could have pokered the Melo trade to the point where we added Melo (or Deron Williams) to our already established team, like the Pau Gasol trade or the Kevin Garnett trade - but we went the route of being absolutely 100 percent sure we got Melo. Now we have Melo, Amar'e, and big holes we need to fill somehow. It's true that the chance of playing with Carmelo and Amar'e might be attractive to free agents and we might get someone good on the cheap that way. We also might get a major contributor with our 17th pick. In my opinion, we are going to be good, but we are going to have to get a little lucky if we want to take the next step to true championship contender.
Now, Branch Rickey once said "Luck is the residue of design", and I think the first way to get lucky is to get Donnie on board. I have faith that Donnie can get the best possible players in here with what he has to work with.
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yea I agree they have to pick up Billups,
he is the best option at PG for the team for now….Fields, TD and Turiaf were extremely disappointing this playoffs…..Fields ok, maybe he hit a rookie wall….but TD really stunk it up offensively and defensively. Turiaf gets hurt waaay to much…I love his energy, but I don’t think the Knicks can trust him for another year…the Knicks def need a rebounding shotblocking big man…..getting one will be tough tho in the offseason…
We can get Kwame and Nazr for peanuts
At least the would fill the “big” part of the equation.
by Robert Curre on Apr 25, 2011 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions
i would love to care
but i really cant get very excited about the knicks right now.
Why bother getting attached to anyone? THey are prob gonna be gone when our insane owner decides that the grass is greener somewhere else.
Whatever. I cant see how on earth this team is going to get any better. Maybe playing together a full year will do wonders…
but I see two players that dont mesh well with each others talents, and over the hill PG who doesnt like the coachs style or have any disire to play for us and a bunch of guys who, while I like, are nothing.
I see no cap space and very few draft picks.
I see no tradable assets.
Whatever. FUck these guys.
That loss yesterday left me feeling nothing. Which sucks. I feel like i HAVE to like this team. Like its homework or something.
Pick up billups or not? whatever. Both options stink.
I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."
I'd thought you were much higher on the team
I suppose you’d agree that Donnie, or whoever actually is in charge, hasn’t left the team in very good shape. Carmelo will basically be playing with a D-League team for the next few years unless something amazing happens. And considering the Knicks haven’t done any amazing moves the past few years, it’s not reasonable to expect one now. By amazing move, I mean something that people look back at and think, wow, the Knicks got great value. Try to find a single one other than Landry or Shawne Williams, who really are just limited players who wouldn’t have played for most teams.
Sure, you can give Donnie credit for getting under the cap, but once he did, he didn’t use it well. Other teams that got under the cap rented out the cap space in exchange for multiple first round picks. The team wasn’t bad enough and didn’t have enough draft picks to get a future star. Teams that win championships have a few max guys, and a number of quality draft picks who either develop into stars as well, or solidly fill in the missing pieces. The Knicks have none of this.
Well
I think Donnie got overruled with the trade. Part of the science of building teams in today’s NBA is not only getting players but getting players at a good value so that you can have at least competency at each rotation position without being hopelessly over the salary cap. I think Donnie really demonstrated that he understood that.
If you think about Carmelo replacing Gallo and Billups replacing Felton, well OK, but those guys make way more money and you’ve also given away Chandler and Mozgov. So you’ve got to replace useful, low price rotation players but you don’t have the money or the draft picks to do it anymore. The real danger here is being a perennial mid-seed early playoff exit team like the Nuggets were.
At some point, when most of your pieces are in place, you can make the transition from being under the cap to being over the cap. The Knicks kind of did that, but with big glaring holes remaining. From what I’ve seen, Donnie is too smart to have done that on his own volition.
That said, the team does have Amar’e Stoudemire. It’s not Carmelo and D-leaguers – it’s Carmelo, and Amar’e and probably an aging Billups and D-leaguers. Still, big holes to fill with not much flexibility left. They do have to get lucky, like before. The thing that bugs me the most is that I thought the team before was really a team and now whether they develop that sense of team again is up in the air.
That all depends on health
I’m not too confident in Stoudemire or Billups being healthy and playing at an all-star level next year, and even less so in the future. It’s very discouraging that a guy is at 50% and plays like a total scrub. Other stars who play hurt at least contribute something.
With luck, the new cap will be a hard cap that gives the Knicks room to sign a few midlevel guys, but not Travis Outlaws. And they absolutely have to draft a guy who can contribute this year.
Of all of the Knicks whose future are TBD, I’d keep Carter and Shawne Williams if the price is right, maybe Walker and Jeffries. I don’t think Balkman, Mason Jr, Rautins have any place on the team. Turiaf is a great guy, a good player, but you can’t count on him. I’d rather keep SheWill. Trade Billups. Toney is a backup.
idk
i keep bouncing around.
I appreciate Melo and dont doubt having him is a good thing…
Just stings. Still dont like the feeling after these playoffs.
I always said I would reserve judgement on the trade till I see what happens in the playoffs. WHat I saw was a very streaky but amazingly gifted player on a team with negative depth. So all in all I would have to say I would not make the trade in hindsight. I like having melo, but I liked having a team more. I dont think its as hard to get a superstar as people say, when you have good trade chips and the lure of NYC. I think it will actually be harder to get 2ndary players in here.
The new CBA may actually save us. Best case is they put a hard cap with a hard max contract and years. So Melos insane contract is put in more reasonable terms and the knicks have a little bit of money to play with.
If i am basing a decision on burps based on his play as a knick, no way do I want him back. If I am basing it on reputation… I can be sold…
these knicks have taught me not to be as invested emotionally in a sports team. I just cant do it anymore. I still love the game, and will watch… but I refuse to get emotionally invested in these guys. Its just not worth it.
I think the writing is on the wall too for Donnie to bounce. I dont think he wants to be here anymore. I would put IT being our GM this offseason at 35%. I just have 0 faith in this franchise right now.
I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."
The steroids crap in baseball and the horrible overpaying of everyone on the Yankees
Is what made me not care much about them anymore. But I really liked having a team to root for, and basketball is the most exciting sport, to me. So I hope there’s future moves I can agree with. If they draft a scrub this year and enter the next season without any upgrades I’ll have to go back to being invested in college basketball.
Donnie made a critical mistake
in drafting Hill over Brandon Jennings. That mistake still hurts. The Melo trade was all Dolan who notified the world that he was willing to pay any price to make the trade.
Brandon Jennings
shot 37% from the field and 32% from 3. Which is horrible.
Jordan Hill wasn’t the right pick, but neither was Jennings
"But when he saw it, he just put his hands up and they couldn’t give it to him. It just fell to the ground, I-I don’t, you know … So, that showed me he had great experience..." - Jeff Van Gundy
by Anthony Bonner's Subpoena on Apr 25, 2011 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Yup
That draft was a massive bust, but fuck Brandon Jennings
I feel ya man
What we had pre-trade was a team and what I saw out there in this series wasn’t. I don’t share your bleak assessment of the future meshing of Amar’e and Melo, and I’m not sure Chauncey doesn’t like D’antoni or doesn’t want to be here. But long term, they have a lot of holes to fill and not much to fill them with. They not only altered their team, they wiped it out by including Felton. Melo’s a big talent and it’s hard to get a guy like that. It’s also hard to have a team identity and I feel the Knicks threw away one for the other.
It’s more fun to root for a team that lacks a closer than it is to root for a closer that lacks a team. We need to find chemistry and come together again but it’s going to take some luck. I’m going to be hopeful and continue rooting, but I too have moments of extreme disillusionment.
AMEN!
it was an empty playoff experience. the excitement from the beginning of the year felt like a distant memory.
i felt nothing, other than irritation that landry ended up looking the way he did because he’s too much of a team ball player on a team without team players or chemistry.
TD looked like a future journeyman, as did the rest of the team… which leaves us with bubkus!
my only hope is that we clean house… and i mean EVERYONE not named melo, amare and landry (and this is only because they’re under contract), and we bring in new guys who we can really root for. guys who do all the things our stars don’t, and guys with shit to prove.
by bucketsncents on Apr 25, 2011 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions
i cant belive we are talking about cleaning house
and waiting for 2012 FA again.
WE JUST DID ALL THIS! and we had such a special team.
I am not over it. I really hope whoever is running the knicks this offseason gives me some reason to believe again.
I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."
I'd hope they either get the 'big name' this offseason
or completely scrap that idea and build around what we got.
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
please jesus... no more big names...
i want a team. i want complimentary parts. i want ferocity and hunger.
by bucketsncents on Apr 25, 2011 8:00 PM EDT up reply actions
i want ferocity and hunger
Pretty much what we had in the 4 guys that went to Denver.
Damn, guys. Every time I think I’m over the trade, people bring it up her and I get all down about it again. Aww shucks….
Hey
The Knuggets won last night. Just looking at the pictures, it looks like Gallo was all over the place. Led the team in assists (with 4, but the assists were amazingly well distributed) . Fun looking at the pictures. Go Gallo go! Felton shot 2-10 though and Chandler 0-4 in 8 minutes, if that makes anyone feel any better.
Yeah Chandler's struggled
And Felton’s been shit shooting outside of 10 feet. However, he’s played great D and ran the offense pretty well. And his floater is still b-e-a-utiful
i can't see us landing a major impact big man either
it won’t keep us flexible for cp3. i think k mart would be a good veteran power forward that’s a good defensive leader
Pretty good assessment of things, but I disagree with you about the big men.
I think WE ABSOLUTELY SHOULD lock up M. Gasol, T. Chandler, or D. Jordan if we have the chance to.
You said it yourself. There are twenty teams scratching and clawing for a legit center, and it’s rare that there are so many quality ones available in one offseason.
I think the PG problem is not as severe as our lack of rebounding and interior defense.
The Knicks are back.
by StarksMiddleFinger on Apr 25, 2011 3:32 PM EDT reply actions
I'm not as worried about the PG because we have Carmelo now.
Teams that have elite scorers don’t tend to have ball-dominating point guards:
Lakers- Fisher (because of Kobe)
Magic- Nelson (because of Dwight)
Hawks- ?? (because of Joe Johnson)
HEAT-??? (because of Wade and Lebron)
The guards of those teams don’t need to create as much. They simply get the ball to their scorers. The scorer usually gets doubled causing the defense to scramble, and open looks are created. Or, the scorer is not doubled, and they go to work in isolation.
But without a legit center holding down the paint, you’re screwed no matter what.
The Knicks are back.
by StarksMiddleFinger on Apr 25, 2011 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I think I just realized
The scorer usually gets doubled causing the defense to scramble, and open looks are created. Or, the scorer is not doubled, and they go to work in isolation.
I’m not really a fan of this type of basketball
bingo
so upset we never got to see a real Mike D team for a full season.
I would venture to say that the team we had before the trade was the most “Mike D” team he has ever had…
its a shame.
I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."
I agree. It was a shame.
I loved that team too. But those guys aren’t here now. We can only work with the pieces we have.
The Knicks are back.
by StarksMiddleFinger on Apr 25, 2011 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions
i may lament on what we had for a little while longer
thank god melo did what he did in game 2, or I would be a wreck right now.
I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."
Why not? Serious question.
If the defense is never forced to double/commit/shift/scramble in some way, what else can happen?
Does the offense just keep swinging the ball around and around until someone takes a contested shot?
The Knicks are back.
by StarksMiddleFinger on Apr 25, 2011 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Not quite
Point guard in command, directing the offense, keeping the team up and focused, attacking the defenses weaknesses. Ball movement and teamwork and passing between all the players resulting in high percentage shots.
And collective improvising as well
I think D’antoni believes in this too.
Give him a training camp – I think Melo can get on board with this but it’s going to take some time and a few new players.
I dunno
I think before we ever see this team play true SSOL again,we’re going to need a PG who can really, and I mean really take command of a game, to the point where players like Melo and Amar’e are like, uh, sweet, I’m just going to let you run shit. That’s why I can only pray that we gave up, like, everything we had for Carmelo, because we knew through some shady dealings (not too proud) that Chris Paul is coming here come hell or high water. That would make another year of purgatory and meh basketball and Chancy Pull-ups and no real center worth it. Because if Chris Paul came in and imposed Mike D’Antoni’s brand of basketball on two players as talented as Melo and Amar’e, wow. That would be insane.
But I am pissed that we went from having a team that we could enjoy at its peak in the here and now, if you know what I mean, to a team that will once again be sort of ugly and incomplete without the addition yet another unrealistic superstar. Even if the former team had less elite talent, watching them maximize that talent playing what was at times a really beautiful style of basketball, was really neat. Add to that the fact that it was one of the youngest teams in the league and I don’t see how you can not be nostalgic.
Man you summed it up
When people said after this series that the Knicks have something to build on, I thought, “Well, they HAD something to build on”. Now, I’m not too sure. I do think they had a good base and wouldn’t necessarily say they’ve blown it because, I mean, Carmelo’s a terrific player and they still have a chance to put together something special. But they’ve definitely taken a step back and it remains to be seen whether they can fill in the holes they have.
Looking at the team post trade – they won a few games on adrenaline and individual talent, then other teams figured out how to exploit them and they lost a bunch of games, then they had a winning streak but it was all against bad to mediocre teams, then they scrapped but lost to a Celtic team having problems, then Amar’e got hurt and they had almost no chance. I have no doubt the team would have ended with a better record and probably won games in the playoffs had they not made the trade. Now, next year and the year after that? It remains to be seen, but they have a lot of work to do to try to regain the depth and floor leadership they had.
not with a hurt Amare tho....the trade didn't cause that to happen
probably won games in the playoffs had they not made the trade
What do you mean not quite?
He asked what else could happen. My scenario could happen. Your scenario sounds like the one he already suggested.
personally...
i’d rather get guys i like watching play hard who are young and exciting… than to do the waiting thing again for another ego… oops, i mean star… with no guarantee that at the end of it all we’ll have the chip.
i want to enjoy watching the games and rooting… and i haven’t since the trade.
give me joey dorseys girth and ferocity, shannon browns electifying dunks and slashing ways, sonny weems’s last name (and upside) and deandre jordans length, bounce and potential and i’d be a happy fan…
and much happier than waiting out another year hoping we get another star (who’s another year older).
by bucketsncents on Apr 25, 2011 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions
agreed,
and without bigs, amare can’t do what amare do… he’ll just wear down and break down. with our scorer stars, we just need a PG to stop the opposing teams PG, and to maybe drive and kick out a little.
spend on BIGS!
by bucketsncents on Apr 25, 2011 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions
SPEND ON BIGS!
You said it, Buckets. Check out the new signature…
SPEND ON BIGS
by StarksMiddleFinger on Apr 25, 2011 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions
honored...
shit, i’d give earl watson the job if we spent on deandre jordan and dalembert to rotate with amare.
by bucketsncents on Apr 25, 2011 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Yo
I’ve been thinking about this one alot. Pick up Billups’ option, trade him and maybe another rotation guy in exchange for an average kinda PG and Center combo ala:
-Hinrich and Pachulia
-Udrih and Thompson
You get the idea. Thoughts?
always been a fan of raiding...
sacramentos pantry. udrih and thompson fill 2 needs, and they’re young enough to bring some of that hunger we want. being that they’ve got a lot of bigs, i wonder if they’d take TD, bully and shawne in sign and trades?
by bucketsncents on Apr 25, 2011 8:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Well yeah
But the point of the trade was to give them Billups’ expiring and maybe Bully or Shawne. We need to keep some of our better rotation/role players and TD, Bully, Extra E, Fields and Turiaf pretty much make up that group. Can’t give away three of them just to fill out our starting lineup.
But yeah, Sac’s got some intriguing pieces
they might take billups...
to show evans the ropes, but i doubt billups would be cool with that.
by bucketsncents on Apr 26, 2011 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions



















