Robin Lopez
by fuhry on May 16, 2011 11:01 AM EDT
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Interesting article on hoopsworld today:
Purely speculation of course but I kind of like it. If Phoenix isn't high on him and is looking to get rid of him, I think there's a decent chance he would be helpful here. It would be a neat addition to the Nets / Knicks dynamic. When it comes to Lopez brothers, I prefer Robin. He has better hair, and though he shares the Lopez temprament with his brother, it's better to have the brother that concentrates on defense and rebounding if you're going to have that temprament. In other words, I'd rather rely on a Lopez to defend and rebound in the end of the game rather than depend on one to score a big bucket.
It would be difficult to get him for Bill Walker and 3 million dollars though. I imagine Phoenix would hold out for a better offer and might very well get one.
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Is this Suns East over here?
The only thing better than an Anderson is a Granderson.
Wagoning since the day I was born.
well it sure as shit ain't the Heat....
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
by Rorschach44 on May 16, 2011 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions
Just saying Amare and possibly Lopez. haha.
The only thing better than an Anderson is a Granderson.
Wagoning since the day I was born.
hopefully Steve Nash and Grant Hill too
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
by Rorschach44 on May 16, 2011 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd be down for J-Rich and Dragic too
And Jared Dudley!
Robin Lopez is awful
Absolutely do not want. He can’t rebound, can’t shoot, is annoying as hell, can’t play defense. There are few less talented 7 footers.
I completely agree
I understand our dire need for a Center, but this guy is not the answer. How many times has anyone here actually watched him play, anyways? I for one hope he goes to Miami or Boston, cause he’s terrible
yeah, what is he even good at?
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Watching him play and his stats, including in college
He wouldn’t have even been drafted in the first round if not for Brook.
His per 36 stats aren't terrible. He's not ideal, but if we get him for close to as cheap as the article mentions, I don't think there's a better bargain availible.
What center do you suggest we go after in his stead?
You mean 16&8, with 0.3 assists and 2 turnovers? 50% shooting despite getting fed by Steve Nash?
I’d prefer Jeff Foster’s 7&13.
Or Kurt Thomas. Or Nazr Mohammed. Or Shelden Williams (not really a center but he’s decent). They’re probably comparable cost or cheaper.
The problem with centers is that as soon as they hit free agency, they’re $5 million+ even if they’re lousy. Most teams would be better off drafting a big guy who graduated college.
I'm more or less in your corner regarding Lopez
But I have to defend dude against your comment about “getting fed by Steve Nash”
Nash is a terrific passer. Whole NBA world knows that. But I’ve had enough of this seeming Nash-adjustment to guys stats. If Lopez gets the ball in a good spot to score it’s because he was in good position to get the ball. He still has top shoot, dunk or lay the ball up. Nash may do an excellent job getting him the ball, but give Lopez the credit for finishing the play.
We’ve already established that Nash didn’t create Amar’e (contrary to what many people seem to think), so it’s not fair to assume he “makes” other guys too. Lopez will never be a top offensive option, of course. But he CAN get into good position for the option of the pass.
But yeah, that being said, I don’t think he is very talented. But he IS a center-sized player, can make a lay-up or put-back and he does play kinda physical. Those two things DO help the Knicks.
"Madison Square Garden is the ultimate basketball stage. That's where I belong. That's where I live. That's the home of the New York Knicks." - Amar'e Stoudemire
by Chris Child's Fist on May 16, 2011 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually...
We’ve already established that Nash didn’t create Amar’e (contrary to what many people seem to think), so it’s not fair to assume he "makes" other guys too. Lopez will never be a top offensive option, of course. But he CAN get into good position for the option of the pass.
While this year disproved the notion that Nash “created” Amar’e (as in, Amar’e is still a very good player, whether he plays with Steve Nash or not), it actually did establish that Steve Nash made a huge difference in terms of how easily and effectively he scored the basketball.
Consider:
In 2009-2010 (with Nash), 61% of his field goals were assisted, and he posted a true shooting percentage of .615 and an effective field goal percentage of .557.
In 2010-2011 (without Nash), only 53% of his field goals were assisted, and his TS% and eFG% dropped to .565 and .505, respectively. It is not a coincidence that those are the lowest scoring efficiency numbers since his 21 year-old season, the last he played without Nash.
Nash used to spoon-feed Amar’e easy buckets, this year he had to ISO a whole lot more. As a result, his scoring efficiency dropped considerably. He made up the difference by taking 3.6 more shots per game, so he still scored a lot of points.
This doesn’t have all that much to do with Robin Lopez, except in that Lopez almost certainly does benefit from Nash, and he also doesn’t have the offensive skill to adjust his game the way Amar’e does. It doesn’t really matter, though… he’s not a big part of Phoenix’s offense nor would he a big part of ours. I don’t really want/care about Robin Lopez but I just want to point out that "the Nash effect" is real, and Amar’e is not the same player for the Knicks that he was for the Suns (though he is still very very good).
Thanks for showing that
Robin Lopez on the Knicks would shoot 45%, with 12 points and 7 rebounds per 36 minutes. But he wouldn’t play much, because he can’t pass at all or hold onto the ball. He’s worse than Mozgov, and isn’t a good defender.
Stop going on about an overrated player in Steve Nash
Stop making Nets fans look smart. If the argument agains MDA is that his system makes marginal players look good, why can’t the same be said for Steve Nash?
because steve nash still looked good without mike d'antoni?
and Amar’e had worse percentages with D’Antoni but without Steve Nash than with Steve Nash and without D’Antoni? Raymond Felton ran the Mike D’Antoni “system” and didn’t look nearly as good.
Come on, Steve Nash is the real deal. He sets up his team mates perfectly, it’s pretty obvious by watching him play. There are a ton of statistics that show this.
Anxiously awaiting the day my username will be appropriate
yeah it might have a little more to do with
him being a scrawny white guy
Anxiously awaiting the day my username will be appropriate
Look how ballin Gortat looked in Phoenix!
I mean, Gortat was always pretty good and starter-wrothy on most teams, but he looked like a top 5 center the last two months in Phoenix
To Gortat's credit, he said if he got minutes he would produce
Remember when Dallas signed him to an offer sheet and Orlando matched it? Gortat was looking for a starting gig and seemed like he had a great fit!
Not surprised at all at his success in Phoenix.
"Madison Square Garden is the ultimate basketball stage. That's where I belong. That's where I live. That's the home of the New York Knicks." - Amar'e Stoudemire
by Chris Child's Fist on May 18, 2011 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah neither am I
But I watched a few games and all he has to do is roll hard and Nash hit him in the right spot every single time (pause).
You're attributing the statistical drop to "Nash's passing" rather than "Nash's presence as a scoring threat"
and there’s really no basis to do this. Nash is a wonderful passer, but there’s also the matter of him being a major scoring option himself, reducing the amount of double/triple teams Amare faced.
just saying, expect Amare’s efficiency numbers to rise next season because of Melo.
"TV pays the bills in the NBA, but it doesn't do the game justice. I wish anyone who doubts the effort level could sit courtside one time, because they would be blown away by the ferocity. The players are just so good, so fluid, it looks effortless on TV." - Bill Walton
Chauncey Billups is one of the only PGs in the league who scores as efficiently as Nash
and Amar’e’s scoring efficiency really fell off a cliff once he and Melo showed up. Part of that is wear and tear at the end of the season and some getting-to-know-you whatever, but part of it is also because neither of them could (nor really tried to) get him the ball nearly as well as Raymond Felton, to say nothing of Steve Nash, unquestionably one of the best passing guards of all time. Note the part about how 7% fewer of Amar’e’s FGs were assisted this year than last.
To wit:
Nash’s AST% and assists/36 in his last year w/ Amar’e: 50.9%, 9.7 ast/36
Felton’s AST% and assists/36 with the Knicks: 37.3%, 8.5 ast/36
Billups’s AST% and assists/36 with the Knicks so far: 27.4%, 6.3 ast/36
(For what it’s worth, Carmelo’s AST% and assists/36 with the Knicks so far: 15.3%, 3.0 ast/36)
So basically, in the course of one year he went with playing alongside one of the best passers in the league, to pretty good, to merely adequate. In a system that hinges on PG play and for a player like Amar’e who is more reliant on others to get him the ball in the right spots, it makes a big difference. If it were just about having other scoring threats on the floor and seeing fewer double teams, the end of last season should have been an all-you-can score buffet for him.
yeah but our whole offense was a mess from the trade on
they just didn’t have time to get it together. I counted like four Chauncey-Amar’e PNRs the whole season. That should change
Anxiously awaiting the day my username will be appropriate
the passing stats Chauncey put up w/ the Knicks are exactly in line with his career averages
What makes you think at 35 years old he is going to get better?
Better understanding of the offense
Better chemistry. His passing game isn’t gonna change, but he’ll likely start to see the openings a little better given more practice time.
If we’re talking about PnR’s, I’d much rather see Melo and Stat run that like 10 times a game. Basically indefensible
We were talking about the Nash effect on Amar'e
and there is literally not prayer in the world that Chauncey Billups improves his playmaking to be even in the same zip code as Steve Nash. He never has been and never will be that kind of point guard. I assume he will make some marginal improvement due to chemistry but hitting the roll man has never been his forte. Old dogs, new tricks etc.
Melo/Amar’e pick and roll is more promising (in theory) but he has likewise never demonstrated much aptitude for running that play. It’s certainly not beyond his skill set but if we’re talking about him learning to do it well enough and consistently enough to help boost Amar’e efficiency closer to his Nash-era levels… I wouldn’t hold your breath.
well ray felton went from a 6 assist guy to a 9 assist guy with us
And Chris Duhon leaped from a 4 assist guy to a 7 assist guy
I’m not saying Chauncey’s going to be transformed into Steve Nash but I’m sure he’ll be a better playmaker for us in the future than he was this year
Anxiously awaiting the day my username will be appropriate
A lot of that is due to pace and minutes played
Felton’s AST% increased from 32 to 37 which is a definite improvement but nothing extraordinary. Duhon was a backup before coming here so obviously his raw numbers increased.
I would be surprised if Billups didn’t improve somewhat next year. I would be MUCH more surprised if he improved enough to be nearly the kind of PG Amar’e likes to pay with in order to be his most efficient.
Just out of curiosity
You think Stat prefers to play with Felton or Billups?
What does he, personally, prefer?
I dunno… He certainly played better with Felton but it’s obviously not as simple as that. He was healthier early in the season, he was the focal point of the offense… But maybe deep down Amar’e trusts Billups more because he’s more established? Who knows.
What is clear is that Felton knew he would sink or swim as a Knick based on how well he could get Amar’e the ball, and he made it his mission to do it as well as possible (to the point of sometimes neglecting guys like Gallo and Chandler). Billups, on the other hand, mainly looks to pass to Melo by default, or else he shoots. I think I could count on my fingers the number of times he even tried to hit Amar’e on a pick and roll. That’s gotta change.
cb never played in simillar offense in his carrer. in dender all he did was shoot or pass to melo.
But i have also my doubts about cb and his playmaking. I think he should come from bench as a 6th man.
Yeah I was referring to Chauncey hitting Amare in the PnR
I don’t really consider anybody in the league to be in Nash’s category in terms of passing.
All in all, I see our “Big 3” to have better chemistry on offense
You're looking at the Nash factor for Lopez, but how about the Amar'e factor?
Playing alongside Amar’e In 2009-10, Lopez had a PER of 17.66 (in contrast to 13.92 post-Amar’e), with a Rebound per 40 min average of 10.1 (in contrast to a 8.7 post-Amar’e).
His shooting % was 58.80 in 2009-10 (in contrast to 50.10 post Amar’e), while his TS% was 62.10 (in contrast to 53.9 this year).
The only problems I’m seeing with this is that he misses on average 25 percent of each season due to injury. So durability might be a concern.
And, also, if he’s on the market I’m not sure Billy Walker is the best the Suns can get for a serviceable 7 footer.
I really hope they get him now
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
by Rorschach44 on May 16, 2011 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I dont know how often you saw him play
because last year with amare and the beginning of this season before he got hurt he was playing excellent. Not a statsheet filler but a difference maker. Kinda like what nick collison was doing in game 7. We could definitely use RobLo. Easy.
by GottaLoveMelo on May 16, 2011 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions
He was decent last year
That’s not a good reason to give away millions. He doesn’t provide anything the Knicks need.
The past two seasons, the Thunder have been +9 with Collison, 0 without him. Phoenix has been worse with Robin Lopez on the floor. Not very comparable.
Doesn't provide anything we need?
How so? He has size, rebounds and plays with energy. Aren’t those things we BADLY need out of a living, breathing big man?
I’d be all for bringing him aboard if the price was right. If we had to give up some of Dolan’s cash (the more the merrier) and offer Bully… I’d have no problem doing that. If Lopez doesn’t work out, it’s not like we gave up much to get him. And I’m a FAN of Walker. But we have enough wing-types still and not enough size.
So, Lopez DEFINITELY provides at least SOMEthing we need… dunno how you can he doesn’t provide ANYthing…
The past two seasons, the Thunder have been +9 with Collison, 0 without him. Phoenix has been worse with Robin Lopez on the floor.
is the second statement also backed by +/-?
"TV pays the bills in the NBA, but it doesn't do the game justice. I wish anyone who doubts the effort level could sit courtside one time, because they would be blown away by the ferocity. The players are just so good, so fluid, it looks effortless on TV." - Bill Walton
Thank you.
+/- is probably the worst statistic anybody can ever use. Means nothing basically. If Amare, Melo, Landry, and….turiaf all somehow lock up whoever they are guarding and chauncey gets lit up by…say…JAMEER NELSON, then everybody looks bad according to that stat.
by GottaLoveMelo on May 17, 2011 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes
And you can watch the OKC playoffs if you don’t believe me about Collison. +/- can be useful if you see it’s consistent with every season he’s been in the league, and the Sonics/Thunder have always played better with him. That’s why he gets the big bucks.
+/- is the epitome of analytical laziness
It indicates a possible trend, but lacks any exploration of said trend. Anyone who’s so much as taken an introductory stats course should be able to spot the uselessness of +/- as a stand-alone statistic.
"TV pays the bills in the NBA, but it doesn't do the game justice. I wish anyone who doubts the effort level could sit courtside one time, because they would be blown away by the ferocity. The players are just so good, so fluid, it looks effortless on TV." - Bill Walton
When the sample size is large enough, it can be significant
That’s why you have to use common sense too.
You're missing the point.
I’m not debating the significance. the point is that +/- removes the entire process of analysis – it just states “something good/bad is happening” with no attempt to explain why. thus, the possibilities of coincidence or alternate causation are not considered. it’s straight-up laziness. don’t ever expect to be taken seriously, making empty references to +/- without even trying to take that next step.
"TV pays the bills in the NBA, but it doesn't do the game justice. I wish anyone who doubts the effort level could sit courtside one time, because they would be blown away by the ferocity. The players are just so good, so fluid, it looks effortless on TV." - Bill Walton
Lopez would be better than any center we currently have.
We don’t need anyone at that position to do more than defend and rebound. Robin is perfect for that.
I hope we can get him without giving up Landry or #17…
He and Turiaf
Make a servicable center rotation. Hardly any offense, but you get toughness, energy, decent rebounding, shot-blocking and decent size
Could we trade for Channing Frye instead?
He can’t rebound or play defense either but at least he’s lights-out from 3 (and you know he’d get to play).
We already have him
His name is Shawne Williams. He’s 2 inches shorter and 25 pounds lighter (I don’t believe that part), but they are almost identical statistically.
statistically, maybe
but this is why numbers don’t dress up and play. Channing Frye hits most of his 3’s from straight ahead or off to the side a bit. Williams is mostly a corner pooper and doesn’t do as well if he sets up elsewhere.
Having a guy that can hit the 3 from anywhere from beyond the arc is something the Knicks don’t have.
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
bill walker kind of has that range
or at least he thinks he does
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billups too
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maybe melo also
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and aw hell why not amar'e
he almost hit that three against boston
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I was kind of joking by the time I got to Amar'e
although he was a 45% three-point shooter for the year . . .
Anxiously awaiting the day my username will be appropriate
Two inches and 25 lbs
is the difference between someone who can credibly play center and someone who can’t.
Also, per-36 statistics are not reality
There is a reason why Frye has started 200 games and averaged more than 24mpg in his NBA career, compared to 17 games and 16 mpg for ol’ Extra E.
Yeah but Frye also did nothing in Portland and benefits from Nash
He’s probably a bit better than Shawne Williams but I don’t think by a large margin. Phoenix probably wishes they didn’t give him that deal.
Before that he had two decent years here
If he can give us 10 and 6 in 24 mpg that’s all we really need. He makes slightly more than Turiaf and is a more useful player. Having an actual center-size player (not a tweener forward like Shawne Williams) who can play alongside STAT and Melo and open up the paint with his range would be a huge boon to our offense.
This is true
That’d be a dynamic scoring frontcourt.
However, defensively we’d be worse and not much better at rebounding either. Frye can’t really body up to most big guys, doesn’t block shots, and when his shot isn’t falling he kind of disappears
I'm talking about as an alternative to Robin Lopez
So… tomato, tomahto
I think this would be a good fit for your team. What are you proposing to give him money-wise, though? Aren't you tied up?
We will have to wait to see what the new CBA provides as far as exceptions.
2010-2011 = acquire an All-Star via cap space as Thorn himself said
2011-2012 = make the playoffs without hindering future flexibility
2012 off-season = sign the second All-Star
2012-2013 = make a run for the championship
Mission accomplished thus far.
it would be a trade
I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."
Robin Lopez kind of sucks
Anxiously awaiting the day my username will be appropriate
fuck robin lopez
but heads up to anyone with MSG, they replaying some old playoff games tonight. knicks vs. heat, and knicks vs. bulls (the dunk), then repeat. all night long..
Not a big fan of either Lopez Bro
Both are kind of soft. Didn’t Landry outrebound both of those dudes this year? Really if we are gonna bring in a 7ft softee who isn’t going to rebound, then Might as well get Bargnani, he will at least score 20 pts while grabbing those 2 rebounds a game!
I wouldn't call them soft
I’d call them pouty. But point taken. Either way, when the stakes are raised, I don’t seen Brook raising his game. Don’t know about Robin.
It seems to me that we already have the best rebounder the Standford Cardinal have produced. Unfortunately he is a 6'7
shooting guard!
by Robert Curre on May 17, 2011 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Standford? That's like when my guidance counselor told me I'd gotten into Harvard.
Me: “Harvard?? Wooo-”
Her: “Hartford.”
Me: “…..-oooo”
would rather get...
ryan hollins AND earl clark or joey dorsey or nazr mohammed or josh mcroberts than spend on robin lopez.
Dorsey? McRoberts? Why would we want them?
Hollins is solid depth, that’s it though.
"TV pays the bills in the NBA, but it doesn't do the game justice. I wish anyone who doubts the effort level could sit courtside one time, because they would be blown away by the ferocity. The players are just so good, so fluid, it looks effortless on TV." - Bill Walton
cheap depth...
if all we have is the MLE, i’d rather bring in a couple of guys who would take short contracts with some useful skills (dorsey and his girth and rebounding) or mcroberts or earl clark (who show some upside as a backup 4). not calling them saviors… i’m just not a robin lopez fan, or anyone with a history o injuries for that matter.
by bucketsncents on May 17, 2011 11:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I like how you didn't list any "useful skills" for McRoberts
"TV pays the bills in the NBA, but it doesn't do the game justice. I wish anyone who doubts the effort level could sit courtside one time, because they would be blown away by the ferocity. The players are just so good, so fluid, it looks effortless on TV." - Bill Walton
6'10, can jump, shoot and handle pretty well...
not to mention he’s only 24 still with upside. kid’s not an all-star, but he’s definitely got a skill set as a strong backup.
by bucketsncents on May 18, 2011 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions
RobLo
is better than everybody you just mentioned.
by GottaLoveMelo on May 19, 2011 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Nazr is a way more effective player
he’s just older
"TV pays the bills in the NBA, but it doesn't do the game justice. I wish anyone who doubts the effort level could sit courtside one time, because they would be blown away by the ferocity. The players are just so good, so fluid, it looks effortless on TV." - Bill Walton
Which disqualifies him because Posters and toasters don't want anyone over
27 on the squad.
by Robert Curre on May 19, 2011 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions
is that so wrong?
"Madison Square Garden is the ultimate basketball stage. That's where I belong. That's where I live. That's the home of the New York Knicks." - Amar'e Stoudemire
by Chris Child's Fist on May 19, 2011 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes because there are alot of players in this league that can help a team even if they
are older than 27. I understand why you guys want young guys. ESPN spends so much time hyping upside that we want those type of players. However upside just means that there is a bunch of things a scout thinks a guy will be able to do one day that he can’t do right now. Coaches need now side to win championships. name the last team to win a title playing a player “with a ton of upside” significant minutes. If I am a coach and my job depends on winning games now, I want guys who can help me now, not in 3 years because in 3 yrs I may not be here!
by Robert Curre on May 20, 2011 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions
name the last team to win a title playing a player "with a ton of upside" significant minutes.
Rajon Rondo, much?
Fair enough but to be honest
Rondo was benched for much of game 4 and 5 in that series and played 15 mins in game 6! Eddie house actually outplayed him in that series!
by Robert Curre on May 20, 2011 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions
I was being sarcastic
understandly it was hard to portray without emotion. Damn you internet! :-)
"Madison Square Garden is the ultimate basketball stage. That's where I belong. That's where I live. That's the home of the New York Knicks." - Amar'e Stoudemire
by Chris Child's Fist on May 20, 2011 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions
speak for yourself
tho I don’t want Nazr Mohammed on the team…
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
He has!
He’s always been serviceable, but has been a victim of overstocked depth charts (Detroit) and playing in obscurity (Charlotte). I loved him as a Knick, and since then he’s been very effective when given minutes.
"TV pays the bills in the NBA, but it doesn't do the game justice. I wish anyone who doubts the effort level could sit courtside one time, because they would be blown away by the ferocity. The players are just so good, so fluid, it looks effortless on TV." - Bill Walton
Dont you think there is a reason for that?
The only reason I can see somebody going from team to team and not playing is because they are not very good. You named 2 teams and I’m gonna name a third…the thunder. Nazr is barely even playing. In a game where Dirk is getting everybody in foul trouble we dont even seen Nazr.
Nazr is a scrub who is going to be 34 when the season starts next year. in regards to RobLo…in the nicest of comparisions…they are the same. RobLo will be 23 next year. Easy decision.
by GottaLoveMelo on May 20, 2011 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes it is. It depends on what you want if you are Donnie.
If you want to win some games now, you get Nazr. If you want to get D’Antoni fired you bring in Lopez. Up and down players like Lopez lose coaches games and get them fired!
by Robert Curre on May 20, 2011 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Nazr is not a scrub. He is a competent role player.
He will come in and do his job. he is just not a guy who can play 35 mins a night. But he can give you 15-20 solid minutes off the bench. He just won’t make any sportscenter highlights while doing it.
by Robert Curre on May 20, 2011 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions
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