Thoughts on the Knicks' NBA Draft
by Osborn on Jun 26, 2011 6:00 AM EDT
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PrintSo I'm sitting there, right? I'm pretty sure at this point the Knicks weren't gonna move up in the draft due to the trades earlier in the day and whatnot, so I'm just kind of hoping Kawhi Leonard keeps falling for absolutely no reason, praying the Knicks might be able to pick him up to either keep or to pawn off for goodies (The Knicks were two spots away from being able to ultimately trade for George Hill, which would have made me cry deeply from profound happiness). Well, they didn't get Leonard, who was scooped up and swapped for the aforementioned IUPUI alum by Indiana. Next, the Sixers took Vucevic, who I sort of coveted for his size and apparent skill, but never fully bought into, and I was set on who I wanted the Knicks to take with number seventeen.
Well, things went a little differently than I thought they would. Jump (42 inches if you can).
"Chris Fucking Singleton!" I yelled. I put my Knicks hat on and prayed to God the Knicks were about to get arguably the best defender in the draft, a big tough Toney-Douglas-befriending lockdown defender who could finally, for the first time in my life, prevent a Celtics loss by way of Paul Fucking Pierce's wing pull-up signature move. Maybe he could prevent LeBron James from scoring 50 points while dropping his traditional MSG triple doubles. Maybe he could guard Luol Deng for seven minutes, then switch onto Carlos Boozer when Stoudemire checked out for a rest. Maybe the lack of a bona fide center won't be that big a deal, and the damage will be mitigated by great wing defense and one of the most athletic small-ball front courts in recent memory. Maybe he'll be a saner Artest with reasonable shot selection.
Then the Knicks took Iman Shumpert, one of the few names I was not expecting to hear. Well, time to look up Youtube videos, re-re-re-reread Draftexpress profiles, and then, only if I have time, inhale. But first, I had to go through my mental Rolodex from the past month or two of about 40 NBA prospects, and try to think of what this guy could bring to the Knicks, because I was sure as shit that Jay Bilas was about to be wrong. Well, you've all read enough about Shumpert's athleticism, about how he "couldn't pass the ball even to Derrick Favors," and about how his shot is busted as Beetlejuice (either one). Well, after tons of quotes about how his shot is apparently fixable, tons of interview videos and statzzz, I have the following thoughts on Iman Shumpert.
Shumpert seems like a great guy. If you haven't done so already, check out the video taken at the moment of his induction into the "professional athlete" realm, as read by David Stern. Although a single video doesn't seem like enough to register any sort of impression, that one is powerful to me. Additionally, if you've watched any of his other interview videos (here, here, here), he seems to be a very self-aware guy.
- Who does he look up to? Jason Kidd because he does some of everything.
- Who does he think he's most similar to? Russell Westbrook, another athletic freak with bad shooting numbers and a penchant for drawing fouls.
- What does he bring to the team that decides to draft him? He brings energy and he brings defense.
- Is he a combo guard or a pure point? Well, according to him, if you put him next to a "dominant wing," (Any of those on the Knicks?) he will truly excel as a passer and decision maker.
I tried to think of a comparison for both his playing style, athleticism, and silently confident personality. Who I've come up with is Wilson Chandler (he even kind of looks like Wil). If you were to go into create-a-player mode in a basketball videogame and start with Wilson Chandler rather than from scratch, you would take two inches off (circumcision joke!), turn the "assists" dial up two ticks and the "rebounds" dial down one. Congratulations, you now have a version of Wilson Chandler that's better-equipped to play point and shooting guard than small and power forward. Anybody who's been following the Knicks for the past three years or so will understand why this dude may be perfect for them. That's the way I see it, and until I'm proven wrong, I'm going to defend this pick fervently.
Harrellson may get his own post at some point, but I'm not familiar enough with him yet to comment on his play or potential. The only thing on which I will comment is his internet savvy and unorthodox personality, two things that will get you loved by Knicks fans real quick. Welcome to the team, if you're reading, Jorts.
The only major gripe I have about Donnie Walsh's final Knicks draft is his lack of activity in the early-mid second round. Plenty of teams were willing to take their picks and sell them for cash, so I'm not sure why Walsh just sat on his hands and only picked up Harrellson. If you follow my Twitter, in which case I apologize, you know how enamored by Charles Jenkins I was and continue to be (He's from Queens, went to Hofstra, plays amazing and seems like a great guy! What the hell?) Darius Morris lasted until the 41st pick and Josh Selby nearly went undrafted. What was the Knicks' front office waiting for?
Anyway, that's what I think as of right now. How about you?
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I think that if he was'nt picked by the Knicks
people would be more positive about his potential. The Knicks hate around the country is astounding, I’ve never seen anything like it, nor do I understand why it is. Is it because they don’t like Dolan? is it just jealousy of NY being perceived as the Mecca of Basketball? us fans don’t call NY the Mecca, the players call it that, is it that? My god, the hate is just laughable at this point. Any other team could have picked Shumpert and they would have talked about his potential, we get him, and nothing but negative. It’s like the Dallas Cowboys in reverse, instead of undeserved praise, we get constant undeserved criticism.
Agreed..
…people are giving us a C+ for a draft grade?? We only had one mid first round pick to start in a weak draft and got an athletic guard who will play right away, and an active big man. What’s wrong with that?
by Nothin purer than the rooster on Jun 26, 2011 8:40 AM EDT up reply actions
i did see a grade where we got i think a B or B-
and about the hate, i think because we’re an offensive minded team that they only mention his offense, how he cant shoot or he cant pass but he does get to the freethrow line. they dont talk about how he was really their only option at GT. they mention how he can help us defensively but they dont go in depth about it, so maybe its not all hate but that the critics are missing the point that we’re trying to make that turn to get better on the defensive end
by blackhova on Jun 26, 2011 8:54 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Reina gave us a pretty good grade
don’t care what ESPN, Yahoo, etc. have to say
Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!
by The Rooster on Jun 26, 2011 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
i was hoping for benson or tyler
i hope harrellson pans out but i wouldve felt more comfortable if we got one of the 2 i mentioned
by blackhova on Jun 26, 2011 8:42 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
initially so was i...
but the more i read about harrellson, the more confident i became in his ability to come in, impress immediately and earn time next to our stars. benson would have gotten overpowered right away and tyler, well, who knows (i did want him a lot).
but harrellson looks and sounds like a guy who has been overlooked for a long time, for whatever reasons (maybe it’s the jorts), and will be able to take his sizable girth (pause) and fundamental skills (tim duncan lite?) and fill our need, either off the bench or in the starting 5, for a rebounding, smart big who can hit the 12 footer on the P & R, clog the lane and get the crowd all kinds of jazzed up.
by bucketsncents on Jun 26, 2011 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions
jorts reminds me of when we drafted fields
it was like… wtf… then you read about the guy and it turns into… how did I not know about this guy?
I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."
Hey he's got a wide body and likes to bang people.
I say he was a good pick up. At the best maybe he can come in and bang on guys for a few minutes, which is something that can’t hurt our interior defense. At the worst he’s not ready to play yet, so then we stash him overseas for a year or so and let him work on his game and bring him back when he is ready. Really we didn’t get this guy to be a future allstar, but to do waht he does be physical and compete on the boards. As much as we pine for the 90s Knicks around here, this guy should get mad love. Not only is this guy more physical than Tyler or Benson, he looks like he could definitely kick either guys ass in a fight!
by Robert Curre on Jun 27, 2011 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions
if he can produce on a luke harangody-esque level
he will manufacture some time.
/// aighttho.com \/// twitter.com/aighttho \
He doesn't have
Harangody’s range, but should hustle/rebound just as well.
by Surujh Operator on Jun 27, 2011 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions
Did I seriously just read "Tim Duncan lite"?
C’mon son.
guys
We’re talkin’ about Jorts here. He ain’t anything lite.
by fuhry on Jun 26, 2011 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
True that! if he doesn't make it on the Knicks
the Giants might need a new left tackle! The boy is wide, his shoulder’s look like they have their own zip code!
by Robert Curre on Jun 27, 2011 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions
What you said about Singleton
is true about Shumpert, so there. Also the buying picks in the 2nd round…maybe while Dolan has a lot of money, he doesn’t allow us to spend it in the 2nd round? Plenty of years in a row its been bitched up and down that we should be buying the entire 2nd round, well…maybe its not so much Walsh as much as it is Dolan allowing him to throw the cash around?
Maybe the Knicks could’ve gone in some different directions. But as much as you can possibly be without seeing these guys play, I’m certain they could not have done better with their draft.
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
agreed...
i think we went smart and solid… where both still have a lot of upside. shumperts character alone stirs confidence that he’ll be at the very least above average defensively and in the open court. whether or not he evolves into a PG or deadly shooter? that we’ll have to wait and see.
by bucketsncents on Jun 26, 2011 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions
Harrelson is not a legit 6-9"’ he’s 6-8 3/4.
Shumbert is 6-4 1/2..
Shumbert is not a good shooter & turns the ball over a lot.
He can no more shoot 3 pointers than Wilt Chamberlin or
Dwight Howard shoot free throws.
Shumbert appears to be a poor man’s Michael Ray Richardson,
but without the shooting skills.
Singleton was the logical pick, but he had a poor workout.
you know they play basketball with shoes on right?
Harrellson is 6"9.5 with shoes on, Shumpert is 6"5.5 with shoes on.
Singleton is not a good shooter and turns it over. Shumpert shot 3pts well in workouts, both individual and in the 3 on 3 drills.
Singleton turned the ball over 2.2 times per game. Shumpert 2.3. I dunno about you, but that’s basically the same number. And considering that Shumpert played PG much, much more then Singleton, I’d say that Singleton’s a lot more turnover prone then SHumpert.
Really…to say Singleton is the logical pick is to look at it from very far away, or at least be completely enamored with Jay Bilas’ draft board
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
by Rorschach44 on Jun 26, 2011 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions
True indeed.
His film didn’t look as bad as people are saying, but testing well at the combines says it all. If Shumpert’s PG skills are good enough to impress D’Antoni then I’m convinced.
don't all players play with shoes?
so doesn’t the extra shoe height cancel each other out for all players?
but i’m with you. shumpert appears far more versatile than singleton, with a stronger foundation of skill.
by bucketsncents on Jun 26, 2011 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed with the height+shoes, but
Shumpert could not shoot in college. Impresses during workouts. Don’t you typically have to shoot in the games to be effective? I think his shooting touch will be heavily scrutinized if/when the season starts. It is a big question mark.
by Surujh Operator on Jun 27, 2011 10:04 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes it has to work in games to matter
But the fact he can shoot in drills and scrimmages proves he has the ability. Some guys show that they really don’t have a good shooting touch even in workouts. ShumpMan proved he has the stroke, just needs some coaching on when/how to use it in games.
Well..he could shoot, but you gotta look at the shots he took as to why he shot a low %
they were not open shots, they were more of the shots that are the low % type..which makes sense that he shot such a low %. The shots he was taking were more of those Derrick Rose type step backs..but that’s all he did.
Pringles O is all about getting guys open shots. All that space on the floor will get him open shots, which he’s hit whenever he got them. Also his ability to get to the cup (all this criticism of his jumpshot is overlooking how good he is at that)…all those opportunities Landry had last year, Shumpert has twice the quickness and athleticism of Landry so he should convert those opportunities a lot more efficiently
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
by Rorschach44 on Jun 27, 2011 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions
The idea that Shumpert's shot is fixable because he shot well in workouts is laughable.
His shot is fixable, but that’s just because players in general can learn to shoot over time. An infinitesimally small shooting sample does not mean his shot is OK.
I preferred Singleton because he seems to me to be the better defender, and because I thought a STAT-Singleton-Melo frontline could be really interesting. But we’ll see. Hopefully Shumpert will play well.
"I think Murdertron makes a good point though."
Stat-Melo Singleton wouldn't be OK
Amar’e would have to guard centers, Singleton would be an undersized 4 sort of like a Wilson Chandler, but he couldn’t do shit on offense
No one said specifically “because of the workouts” his shot is fixable, so I’ll just leave that alone.
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
The idea that his shot isn't broken stems entirely from one quote about the workouts.
You yourself in that comment seem to be suggesting that his shot is fine because he shot well in workouts.
As for the frontline, Amare’s going to end up guarding centers a lot of the time anyway. Unless we get a real center, our best lineup is probably going to involve Amare at the 5. It might not be the starting lineup, but it’ll probably be the most effective one. I think Singleton will be able to handle most of the 4s in the league (but not all – I’m not saying that frontcourt would be the right choice all the time). True, he won’t do much on offense, but I think that’s acceptable from a frontcourt player. A backcourt player in an offense with Amare and Melo HAS to be able to space the floor with three point shooting. I am hoping that Shumpert’s shot improves big time, because otherwise, even if his D is good, he’ll be a liability.
"I think Murdertron makes a good point though."
I think the "not broken thing"
comes from the fact the Knicks noticed in workouts (as a lot of us have just by watching Youtube) that his form isn’t that bad at all, and that his struggles may be due more to poor rhythm/selection. Perhaps it wasn’t that he made so many shots, (though that doesn’t hurt) but that there wasn’t as much fixing to be done as the Knicks might have originally thought.
Exactly, his "shot" looks fine
his shooting percentage will be fixed by not taking any more step-back three pointers over double teams (one hopes)
This is precisely my point.
Saying that a shot’s form subjectively looks OK in a workout means, pardon my French, f*** all when it comes to evaluating a guy’s shot, especially compared to three seasons’ worth of results. The results show that he hasn’t shot well (whether he was the top dog or not). That’s a lot more meaningful than watching some video and deciding that he superficially looks OK. There are plenty of guys who have good looking form but can’t shoot. Conversely, the guy who until recently had the most 3s of all time would at first glance seem to have terrible form. What your eyes tell you can be meaningless in reality.
Now, as far as trying to figure out why he shot poorly (this is more a response to flossy), I would argue that all these excuses people have been advancing don’t necessarily make it more likely that he’ll improve. Unlearning bad habits about when to take a shot may be much, much more difficult than learning how to shoot more accurately. That’s why I’ve said from the beginning that I’m much more concerned about his poor shot selection than his shooting ability. We all know that a guy can go from being an unexceptional shooter in college to a very effective one in the NBA (see Fields, Landryman). But I think people are dismissing his poor shot selection as if it’s a light switch he can just flick off. We all know that poor shot selection habits can last for years (see Crawford, Jamal; Harrington, Al). And the idea that playing with Melo and Amare automatically means that he won’t take bad shots is hogwash. Toney Douglas would routinely take 14, 15, 17 shots after the Melo trade. If he plays, Shumpert will definitely have the opportunity to take shots. I hope he only takes the open ones, and I hope he’s able to work on his accuracy. If he becomes a more effective shooter, that paired with his defensive abilities can make him a major contributor. If he doesn’t improve his shot or his discipline, he’ll be a liability. I’m definitely rooting for him and hoping for the best. But it’s not going to be easy.
"I think Murdertron makes a good point though."
You make a good point about TD taking lots of shots
I think, first and foremost, it’s obvious he can become a better shooter. David Lee and Stoudemire are both examples of dudes who came into a season with OK midrange games at best, to seemingly automatic over the course of a season. Shumpy is only, what, 20? His form does look good in highlights (which show he’s capable) and he’s a good FT shooter which again indicates good touch and form. It’s about shot selection. Either way, he’ll improve in shooting.
And yeah, there’s no doubt he’s gonna get shots despite playing with Melo and Stat. Realistically, he’ll probably get more cause I think he’ll be a 2nd unit guy. I’m sure there will be moments where we wanna slap him for taking a stupid shot, but hopefully what he’ll learn is when to take shots, when to use his crazy athleticism to get to the cup, and hopefully we can mold him into a good passer, where he gets the ball moving and gets other guys good looks
d'antoni's offense, if you ask me
is predicated on moving the ball effectively, because that is specifically what creates open and in rhythm jump shots. and phil weber has proven time and again that he can figure out how to get guys good at taking and making “their” shot, so to speak.
the thing that makes me comfortable with shumpert’s offense is his confidence. and i have reason to believe he is composed as well. never too up, never too down. i think that will translate well.
but i’m a hopeless optimist when it comes to the knicks.
/// aighttho.com \/// twitter.com/aighttho \
nobody in the nba is a "legit" anything...
but harrellson does seem to be a legit 260+ with impressive vertical and absurd agility.
by bucketsncents on Jun 26, 2011 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions
If we just drafted a poor man's Michael Ray (without the drug problems) with the #17
then it’s the steal of the draft.
Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!
Singleton was not the logical pick
Singleton is either going to be a 3 or an undersized 4 in this league. We already have two guys at those positions who are owed 80 mil a piece for the next 4 years. Are you saying that we should have used one of our few draft picks in the next 5 years to draft a guy destined to play 8-10 minutes a night behind either Amar’e or Carmelo, no matter how much he develops over the next 4 years? We didn’t need to draft a guy at 17 to play 10 minutes a night behind Amar’e, Shawne Williams can do that. Now you might argue that he could play 20 minutes, 10 behind Melo and 10 behind Amar’e, but he lacks the ball handling skills to play the 3 spot on a consistent basis. So no he is not logical.
I agree Shumpert’s perimeter shot needs work and he needs to get his turnovers down, but those things can be worked on and pretty easily fixed. Singleton’s offensive game is even further behind than Shumpert’s. At best lets say both Singleton and Shumpert work out, which one of these guys will the Knicks have an easier time extending their minutes without having Amar’e or Carmelo play out of position? That was the logical pick.
by Robert Curre on Jun 27, 2011 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions
iman and harrellson
I think Iman will come in and contribute immediately everybody is bashing his offensive game, but i think it will come around and if his perimeter defense is as good as they say it is he’ll find his spot in the rotation pretty quickly, i think he’ll be able to draw fouls like Chauncey does because of his size and come on how much fun is it when your point guard can slash and finish at the rim. As for Harrellson i personally really like this kid, he played very well in the tournament and showed everyone his grit by hanging around and believing in himself even when Calliparri didn’t believe in him, i’ve also read he’s stubborn as hell, i hope he is and i hope he’s stubborn enough he wont let anything stop him from succeeding at the next level
Thank You Donnie, Mr. Dolan please don't do the unthinkable
by colinlovestheknicks on Jun 26, 2011 10:11 AM EDT reply actions
Agree and backcourt offense is not what NY needs right now
What the Knicks need is defense and durability. They need players who can stay on the court.
Billups used to be a reliable regular season player; but it is yet to be seen if last year’s injuiries and inability to stay on the court was a fluke caused by playing in last summers tourney or if he’s wearing out for good.
"Man, I've got vision and the rest of the world wears bifocals."
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
"Franchise Tag: Enabling Incompetent Owners to remain imcompetent"
"Contenders do; pretenders give excuses why they did not"
"Yes everybody does have an opinion; but that does not make your opinion any less wrong"
"That ought to stop your bitchin"
I'm reading the comparisons but they don't seen to make sense
what’s written is that Iman reminds you of Wilson Chandler and that you wanted Singleton to be drafted.
Chandler is a legit NBA but there’s questions whether he could be an effective NBA SG.
Iman is being billed as a defensive PG/SG
Singleton is being billed as a defensive SF
Melo is the Knicks SF and he is a minutes eating beast.
Does it really make sense to spend your 1st round pick on a non-need (backup SF) or on a proven need (SG/PG)?
From everything pre-draft that I read, once the two bigs that the Knicks had interest in were taken, drafting Iman was a no-brainer
"Man, I've got vision and the rest of the world wears bifocals."
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
"Franchise Tag: Enabling Incompetent Owners to remain imcompetent"
"Contenders do; pretenders give excuses why they did not"
"Yes everybody does have an opinion; but that does not make your opinion any less wrong"
"That ought to stop your bitchin"
It makes sense if you're picking 17th in an abominable draft.
You’re drafting back-ups, situational players, and specialists (in my opinion).
Shumpert is going to have one hell of a time, regardless of skill and effort, out-producing Landry Fields.
Shumpert should be more concerned with beating out Walker and Shawne for minutes
because Landry can and should get more time backing up Carmelo at SF. Also Carter’s minutes last season are up for grabs, and we can now afford to rest Toney or Chauncey if they have more nagging injuries.
I think this makes it easier for Landry, but it doesn’t cut into his minutes at all – if he and Shumpert “battle” for the starting SG spot, it won’t have that much of an impact on total minutes, just on matchups and rotations.
Singleton would have been way harder to fit into our rotation, both now and in the long term. Shumpert makes a lot more sense in that regard.
Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!
Normally I agree with you Osborn but not this time.
If I am drafting, the last guy I am taking is a personal caddy for melo and having to pay him more money over the next 4 years than I could pay someone else, also if I take a guy at another position and he pans out I have other options to fill the 10 minutes a night left by MELO. I could put Fields at the 3, which actually was his natural position in college, I could play Walker there 10 minutes a night, or even put Shawne Williams or Derrick Brown at that spot if either of them are brought back, like I said with Faried, unless there were no other options available it is a waste to draft a guy to at best play 10 minutes a night, when there are cheaper options available.
by Robert Curre on Jun 27, 2011 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Interesting NY Post article about NY only planning to offer 1yr FA contracts
And the names the squwaking heads keep marching out really is getting old… about as old as the players themselves (Battie, Ratliff, etc.)
That’s not a good sign for next year, if/when there is a season. It’ll be another year of Amare&Melo playing a lot of minutes in the wrong positions trying to hold things together while the coaches scramble trying to find enough pieces to play each night because nobody else can stay healthy.
All in the hope of having maybe $19 or $20m to offer one of the upcoming big 3 FA. I still don’t see them having that much to offer unless they don’t make a qualifying offer for Fields
"Man, I've got vision and the rest of the world wears bifocals."
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
"Franchise Tag: Enabling Incompetent Owners to remain imcompetent"
"Contenders do; pretenders give excuses why they did not"
"Yes everybody does have an opinion; but that does not make your opinion any less wrong"
"That ought to stop your bitchin"
"interesting ny post article"
thats like saying “i was at this fun circumcision ritual”
/// aighttho.com \\/// twitter.com/aighttho \\
by stingy d on Jun 26, 2011 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
and including the words Peter Vescey & reliable source in the same sentence
"Man, I've got vision and the rest of the world wears bifocals."
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
"Franchise Tag: Enabling Incompetent Owners to remain imcompetent"
"Contenders do; pretenders give excuses why they did not"
"Yes everybody does have an opinion; but that does not make your opinion any less wrong"
"That ought to stop your bitchin"
This year's FA class is mostly vets looking for one-year deals anyways
the multi-year guys will all get overpaid, except for JR Smith at the MLE
Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!
According to the Knicks
They worked out Harrellson with Vucevic. And Harrellson dominated. So I doubt they wanted Vucevic anyway.
I was amazed with Vucevic's rapid growth spurt leading up to the draft too
he jumped from 6’10" 240 to 7’0" 260 almost overnight
"Man, I've got vision and the rest of the world wears bifocals."
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
"Franchise Tag: Enabling Incompetent Owners to remain imcompetent"
"Contenders do; pretenders give excuses why they did not"
"Yes everybody does have an opinion; but that does not make your opinion any less wrong"
"That ought to stop your bitchin"
Link?
Nowadays everybody wanna talk, like they got something to say, but nothing comes out when they move their lips, just a bunch of gibberish and motherfu****s act like they forgot about Dre
by King Henry the 2nd on Jun 26, 2011 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions
I don't remember
But it’s documented they worked out together.
And if you like stats, Harrellson is the best C in the draft. http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=39482&page=1
at least college centers, maybe
hopefully he makes the roster, cuz the Knicks could really use a big wide ass(hole) under the boards who doesn’t get pushed around and throws elbows at anything in his radius
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
by Rorschach44 on Jun 26, 2011 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Vucevic's standing reach is about 7 inches higher than Jorts'
But due to the fact that Vucevic can’t jump, Jorts would win a tip from him.
the lack of activity in the second round
was probably because Donnie thought that none of this players would make an NBA roster. With the exception of Darius Morris and Selby (who are no more than below-average backups at this point; 7th or 8th men if you will), we were looking at the D-League Draft.
it was kind of like those nights when you are out with your friends and its almost last call, all the pretty girls are either home sleeping or with their boyfriends, and you then get to witness your friends perform the “2-minute drill” in an attempt to score the grossest chicks at the bar. That was the second-round of this draft.
"Practice does not make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect."
yep you try to find the hottest chick available on the last call
and i think we kinda got it with harrellson by using that analogy
Victory goes to the courageous!!
I know what you mean, this draft sucks.
But the Knicks may simply need bodies, and I thought there were a couple of them left who could have a chance of blossoming.
I don’t know, hopefully I’m just plain wrong and none of those guys turn out to be any good.
there was a lot of selling that night too
it’s possible what picks that were available earlier in the 2nd just were not worth the cost the other teams were offering
"Man, I've got vision and the rest of the world wears bifocals."
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
"Franchise Tag: Enabling Incompetent Owners to remain imcompetent"
"Contenders do; pretenders give excuses why they did not"
"Yes everybody does have an opinion; but that does not make your opinion any less wrong"
"That ought to stop your bitchin"
I've said this before and I'll say it again
If Singleton is guarding Paul Pierce or Lebron James, Carmelo is completely dominated by DWade off the dribble (or Ray Allen off of screens)/ or Carmelo is getting outsized by KG/Haslem. Melo is our Sf, for better or worse , and he can only guard SF, minimizing Singletons value for this team
by Gallinari's Barbershop on Jun 26, 2011 12:41 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
This is assuming you’d want Singleton guarding Lebron/Pierce during crunch time, and not for a 5 minute stretch during the 2nd quarter. For that 5 minute stretch, we can get James Posey, who scouts compare Singleton to anyway
by Gallinari's Barbershop on Jun 26, 2011 12:44 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Melo played great defense in the playoffs so I don't see the problem here
Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!
Agreed, that’s kinda the point I was making. Melo really got up for the big games, and honestly his D on LeBron was as good as anybodies. Either way, a singleton-melo-amare front court would get killed, so Singleton holds minimal value for the Knicks as presently constructed (unless you’re drafting a guy to play for the 10 minutes that Melo sits)
by Gallinari's Barbershop on Jun 26, 2011 1:34 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Yep
and I look forward to seeing how Shumpert responds to not being a go-to scorer. I think the experience of carrying a team’s scoring load will only help. Like Toney, he’ll be confident in making the most out of his opportunities. I think he has more potential on offense than Singleton, and him being an athletic freak only expands the possibilities
Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!
Agreed again..
In his last year, Shumpert was literally the only basketball player on his team after the other good players (Favors, Lawal) moved on to the NBA. He did everything for that team, and defenses gameplanned to stop him. Now that he’s gonna be the last or second to last option on the floor, he’ll have a lot of open looks and I fully expect his efficiency to skyrocket. He has a nice shot, its just he was taking it over double teams, which killed his percentages.
by Gallinari's Barbershop on Jun 26, 2011 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions
i think melo is gonna take all this dissin on his D to heart
like that rook calling him out at his presser. Dude wants to be the best, its pretty obvious what he needs to prove. Hopefully all this talk is gona have some kinda of effect.
I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."
2nd Round
I heard Chad Ford chatting on a podcast about a phenomenon this year where newer NBA GMs would say they had a deal to sell or trade a pick, then the pick would get there and they’d renege on the deal, asking for more money or a better offer or something. And that it was younger, newer, more cut throat GMs usually pulling this on the older, more established crowd. I wonder if that didn’t happen to Donnie & Co…
Interesting
it was definitely done differently than in years past. usually teams like the Mavs would buy in, but not this year. the Spurs bought one from the Pacers, and ended up with Bertans/Hanga which is a haul. Demps is a newer GM but we were able to work with him.
Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!
As far as I can tell
We picked a guy we think can stick with Wade, Rondo and Rose instead of a guy for Lebron, Pierce and Deng. Smart choice, as far as I’m concerned.
I was kinda thinking the same thing
If his shot really isn’t broken but just needs coaching (he did shoot north of 80% from the line if I recall my stats on him), then we have a lock down defender and a good shooter at the 1. Could do a LOT worse. Just wondering if he can run the PnR well. No one has really commented on that.
And that video of him when he heard his name on draft night… Wow. Really kinda touching. He’s now one of me fav Knicks. He just seems so … serious and hard working and eager and mature all at the same time.
Anywho, are we better off with an elite defender trying to learn to shoot, or an elite shooter trying to learn to defend? I think the former. If he had shot better in college, he wouldn’t have been there at 17. Maybe we caught a break.
I was furious at first, but I’m really starting to come around to that pick. I just hope he can pass.
by AtlKnicksFan on Jun 26, 2011 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions
i heard somewhere on here he was i think between ok and good in the PnR
and i would love for him to run it because hes a slasher and either teams collapse on him or collapse on the guy setting the pick and that will leave someone on the wing open or they get dunked on… win
by blackhova on Jun 26, 2011 7:30 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
i have been DYING to know about his P&R abilities
any GT fans out there? Do they run it? Was Sherbert good at it?
I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."
This pick has really grown on me.
I love it now. But I too am really mad at failing to add another second rounder, especially considering how many good players were still there and how many picks were sold.
Every year the pundits fall in love
with an athletic guy with questionable offensive skills. Look at all the love for Kawhi Leonard. Shumpert wasn’t a sexy enough pick for everyone this year, but if Kawhi Leonard was picked 11th, no one would have said that was a bad idea. I don’t understand it.
I trust Donnie and D’antoni that they saw something in this kid. The point of the draft is to find the guy that’s undervalued by the experts.
Tommy Dee links to this article that speculates that the Knicks took Shumpert as part of some hypothetical Steve Nash deal, because it’s out of character for the Knicks to draft a defensive guy. It’s so idiotic. D’antoni talks about defense all the time. Steve Nash plays defense none of the time . And if Phoenix really wanted Shumpert they could have drafted him. I get so pissed of a this kind of shit.
Draft grades? Talk to us in a couple of years. In the meantime, I’ll root for Shump and Jorts.
by fuhry on Jun 26, 2011 2:01 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
yea
just like Philly took Vucevic with the intention of trading him to us for Toney Douglas cuz he’s “redundant” with SHumpert on the team.
I know they’re trying to create discussion, but shit like that is irresponsible and only gets the idiots that read the site a ball of yarn to play with. I mean for fuck’s sake, that makes no sense that there’s something “fishy” about the pick. Everyone, including D’Antoni wants the team to be better defensively.
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
by Rorschach44 on Jun 26, 2011 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
it was pure spc
just like it was for the quote Tommy Dee had. It makes as much sense as the Shumpert rumor too
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
Tell me about it. Vesley gets picked 6th overall on mostly athleticism.
Leonard was project as a top 8 pick on mostly athleticism (and massive hands/arms).
Funny how you can have somebody like Shumpert who is the most athletic guard in the draft get no love, but some athletic SFs/PFs get lottery talk and praise. Especially odd when you consider the recent wave of athletic guards starting to dominate the league. I stand by the pick now.
Also, considering pretty much every single pick in this draft is a risky pick (none of these guys are really proven enough to be safe picks, maybe a handful of guys), it was a smart move.
The 2011 Draft
The Knicks are only thinking Cap space right now; with the new CBA not in place, they are not looking to add any excess payroll as they need a few minimum wage free agent bigs. They may also scout Europe like they did for Mosgov. If the new cap allows, they are going to be back in the Chris Paul (or Deron Williams if he doesnt sign) summer of 2012 sweepstakes. Prepare for another season long game of Chicken, this time with the NBA owned Hornets, who won’t trade Paul before they sell the team. The same question wil remain…who does Paul want to sign with?. In the meantime its Amare, Melo, Chauncey, Fields, Douglas, probably Shawne Williams, the new Rookies and 4 open roster spots. Turiaf and or Douglas could be traded, Rautins, Walker, Brown, Jeffries, Balkman, Carter and Mason are gone.
woudnt that be a slap to the Brooklyn Nyets if the Knicks stepped up and stole Deron from them!!!
"Man, I've got vision and the rest of the world wears bifocals."
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
"Franchise Tag: Enabling Incompetent Owners to remain imcompetent"
"Contenders do; pretenders give excuses why they did not"
"Yes everybody does have an opinion; but that does not make your opinion any less wrong"
"That ought to stop your bitchin"
This is a good question.
I think a better question is: “Is the MLE going to exist anymore?”
If so, I think their MLE may be better spent elsewhere, but maybe not.
i heard denver picked up his option
but gallo is a fa
by blackhova on Jun 26, 2011 7:34 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Chandler doesn't have a team option
he has a qualifying offer. if the Nuggets extend it, as I guess they did, other teams can still sign Chandler. Nuggets just have the option to match.
Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!
Also, Gallo is not a FA
not until next season, when he has the same situation (QO, Denver has right to match) as Chandler has now.
Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!
link or it didnt happen
I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."
He's not going to accept it
no restricted FA ever does until they see if they can get an offer sheet. If he can get another team to sign him to an offer sheet, then Denver can match. Will they? I tend to doubt it.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the Knicks do try to sign Wil to an offer sheet (I think it has to be more than a year contract though). Another team might outbid the Knicks because the Knicks aren’t offering much, but it would be more than the QO. Denver might not match, and then we have Chandler back. Truth be told, if they could swing this and have Chander instead of extra E it’s a pretty shrewd move.
Instead? Why not both?
I’m pretty sure Shawne said he wants to be with the Knicks and will take less to do it. Give me guys that hustle and want to be on the team any day of the week.
its up to chandler though where he accepts
if he truly does miss NYC, maybe he comes back here for a little less (And for more of a chance to win a chip… its nice saying that as a real possibility). Not knowing him personally, he appears to be the kind of guy that appreciates more then just than just the highest bidder. He actually enjoyed the NYC culture and whatnot.
I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."
Can we actually offer him anything?
even if we use the MLE, it will still count against the overall cap in 2012 and it seems to be the aim to leave as much clear space as possible. I hope we do anyway because I have heard alot about the heat being interested in Chandler and that would be horrifying
I think since he's restricted, any offer we make him Denver has the option to match.
So if we try to sign him to a lower number that’s more cap-friendly to us, Denver would have every right to just match that number since they have the right of first refusal.
At least I’m pretty sure that’s how it’d work. I’m no Coon.
right
but if we offer him 2 mil and the heat offer him 3.. but he is like Fuck those pussies and wants to come to NY, he has the choice then it is up to denver to match or S&T.
I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."
Man Denver would have to be dizzy to turn that opportunity down.
I remember reading somewhere before the trade that Gallo had told the FO he’d be open to staying on for the min if he wasn’t traded, though I wish I’d saved the link at the time. Chandler also seemed heartbroken, but I can’t see a scenario where Chandler’s amenable to signing with us for less than market value and Denver saying “Ahh that’s cool. Go home, young man.”
Though I really really really really really wish it would happen.
i justed used 2 and 3 mill for illustrative purposes
i am sure he will make more then that
I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."
coincidentally, Wil's QO was basically bang on $3M.
So if we bumped it up to..I have no idea what the MLE next year would be for scale, but say $5M. Still pretty sure Denver would jump on it. The only real scenario I see him coming back to us if either next year when he’s free and clear and that Denver weed starts getting played out he makes his triumphant return to the Garden(at $4M a year!!) or we overpay this year.
I’m hoping we welcome Wil and Gallo back next year.
I could see bringing one of them back
But at this point, they’re total luxuries to have. If we had an MLE, I think we gotta use it on a big man, and in 2012 if we have cap space, I think we gotta try to get a starting PG (not necessarily DW or CP3), and if there’s room, grab Chandler or Gallo.
To me, it only seems right that one of them come back here
It just all goes to show that Qualifying Offers are not just wastes of time
It assures the player that he is gonna get a minimum amount and it assures his current team that they won’t get screwed by any lowball offer.
So while it’s perfectly fine with me to bring back Chandler, or try to, it just won’t be for pennies on the dollar by any means. I wouldn’t put many expectations around Wilson Chandler in a Knick uniform anytime soon… dah well.
"Madison Square Garden is the ultimate basketball stage. That's where I belong. That's where I live. That's the home of the New York Knicks." - Amar'e Stoudemire
by Chris Child's Fist on Jun 28, 2011 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions
the Russell Westbrook comparisons
make me tingly
"Rooting for the Yankees is like rooting for Steve Jobs to win the lotto." - Chris Rock
That's a tad premature
Russell Westbrook is a top three PG.
Then again, I saw Harrellson compared to Tim Duncan on P&T today so I have no fucking idea what’s next.
Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!
I just read that Russell Westbrook is a top 3 PG.
this place just gets weirder by the day!
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
derrick rose and cp3 are the only 2 PGs that i can think of that are clearly better than Westbrook
d-will, arguably
by JVGsDietCoke on Jun 26, 2011 9:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Rose, CP3, Williams, unquestionably
tho I guess you can say top 5 depending on where you have Nash and Rondo
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
i think you should put the MVP there too.
by JVGsDietCoke on Jun 26, 2011 9:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Best player in the league last season, yes
Winner of an arbitrary award handed out by an old boy’s club of narrative-obsessed sportswriters who write sentence-long paragraphs, no.
Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!
He should have won, yes
But he didn’t. This debate has been had with you many times on here, but Rose is a better PG than Westbrook. So are Nash and Rondo when we’re talking about being PGs
Wow
Rooster please let’s get married!
by superturboultra on Jun 28, 2011 12:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Rose didn't get it for his play
He got it for his intangibles and the play of the team. Westbrook is better in nearly every way. He is just as good at shooting even though fewer of his shots are assisted, passes better, rebounds better (although that might be because his teammates are poorer rebounders), draws more fouls. OKC is overrated though. They’re maybe #5 in the West and with little upside since Durant regressed and is soft, and they overpaid for Perkins.
by mindfeck on Jun 26, 2011 9:40 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
He defends better, too
and that’s actually where he has the widest of his several advantages over Rose, I think.
Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!
It's debatable
Since they have very different defensive supporting casts. Also, the Bulls had no real backups or other guys who could create a shot, which altered Rose’s stats and also made him “more valuable.”
Russell Westbrook isn't better than Derrick Rose.
I’m truly shocked anybody agreed with you on that. I mean, you can do whatever you want with stats or whatever, but Westbrook just isn’t as good.
by Osborn on Jun 26, 2011 9:49 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
This is really indicative of all the arguments against Westbrook > Rose I've ever come across
Just simple, short appeals to ridicule and/or the majority. Can anyone do better, i.e. refute statistical reasoning for Westbrook being better, or make counterarguments showing why Rose is better? Because I’ve yet to see anything, and I find that sad.
Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!
westbrook takes baaaad shots... i think that's his major flaw
you can’t have that in a PG. that’s why in game 2 against the MAVs, he was replaced by harden on the 4th quarter. westbrook has the tools to be a great PG, he just needs to get his head on straight.
But right now, he’s not on D-rose’s level.
by JVGsDietCoke on Jun 26, 2011 9:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Westbrook takes less bad shots than Rose
He’s criticized for it every time he so much as takes a shot that’s not wide open, because Durant is on his team, never mind that Durant might as well have been on the bench the way the Mavs manhandled him.
As for Rose, you can make very legitimate and valid criticisms of his unwillingness to sit back and act as a distributor to get his teammates involved.
Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!
by The Rooster on Jun 27, 2011 12:36 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm not sure about less, but
Rose takes some bad shots, and everyone seems to ignore it.
"I think Murdertron makes a good point though."
Sure he does.. but I would say that #1 options will take bad shots plenty.
The knock on the Bulls was their lack of a SG and a scoring compliment to Rose. I thought that Boozer would step up more to fill that void, but apparently not.
But with Rose being the unquestioned #1 option for the Bulls, one has to expect a number of ‘bad shots’… so, it’s not so much ignoring them, but accepting that as part of the process. By contrast, Westbrook is NOT the #1 option on his team… so one can make the arguments that HIS bad shots can be more detrimental. Not saying that is the catalyst to deciding who is ‘better’… but like everything else in this foolish side-thread… it plays its part.
I, for one, would pick Derrick Rose for my team before Russell Westbrook 10 times out of 10. Their shooting stats were near identical last year, but overall, Rose has shot better. Westbrook put up marginally better Rebs/Ass/Stls/Blks last season too. The question to me would then be.. if stats are so similar, what about the intangibles of leadership? If we are so inclined to crown someone ‘better’…. well, leadership better be in that conversation and it’s my own opinion that Rose strikes me as a better leader. Westbrook feels to me as if he wants so bad to be the man. It’s more complicated obviously with Durant holding that down tho. In Chicago no one is a threat to Rose’s leadership though. So its still murky to distinguish.
But, and I’m ashamed at myself for the length of all this, Derrick Rose absofuckinglutely deserved the MVP last season. He had a fantastic season, improved greatly from the previous season and definitely lead his team as an MVP should. We should at least be able to agree on this. But, yeah… we won’t.
"Madison Square Garden is the ultimate basketball stage. That's where I belong. That's where I live. That's the home of the New York Knicks." - Amar'e Stoudemire
by Chris Child's Fist on Jun 28, 2011 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions
It's interesting,
because Shump joining the Knicks has shades of say, Rose going to a team like OKC that has scoring options around him. I’m hoping Iman will cool his shit now that he has incandescent scorers like Carmelo and Amar’e, but sometimes old habits take a while to die.
"It was one of those good, deep sleeps; you know, the ones where you wake up and a stream of drool is steadily racing down your shirt? Yes, that kind of sleep." -Landry Fields
by Thelonious Dunk on Jun 28, 2011 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions
They're very similar players
I mean, both are explosive scorers, not pass-first PGs, good rebounders for their size, and good defenders.
Rose led the best defensive team in the league, and as Clyde says himself, defense starts up top. Westbrook is probably better one-on-one, but as a team defender, Rose is better.
Also, supporting casts do matter, as if Rose was the PG with Durant on his team, OKC would have been in the Finals. Rose’s unwillingness to be a playmaker comes from a lack of a reliable supporting cast. Westbrook does the same thing with the best scorer in the league.
I'm sorry but this post is full of bullshit
It’s not just you. The reason this argument comes up so much is because so many of the repeated pro-Rose points are nonsensical and make no logical sense if you actually analyze them.
Rose led the best defensive team in the league, and as Clyde says himself, defense starts up top. Westbrook is probably better one-on-one, but as a team defender, Rose is better.
How does the first sentence prove the second sentence true? How does it even come close? What do they have to do with each other?
Also, supporting casts do matter, as if Rose was the PG with Durant on his team, OKC would have been in the Finals. Rose’s unwillingness to be a playmaker comes from a lack of a reliable supporting cast. Westbrook does the same thing with the best scorer in the league.
In the playoffs, Durant was taken out of the game with one defender, leaving four defenders to guard Westbrook and three spot shooters.
Boozer and Deng each attracted one committed defender, leaving three defenders to cover Rose and two spot shooters. One of those was often Korver, who you have to stick to on the perimeter.
Durant was not the best scorer in the league against Dallas, and Westbrook didn’t pass to him because he wasn’t open.
Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!
by The Rooster on Jun 28, 2011 12:01 AM EDT up reply actions
For your first point
It’s actually quite clear how they make sense. Rose led the best defensive team in the NBA, and since it’s pretty much known defense starts up top (where Rose plays), he’s a terrific team defender. If you put Rose and Westbrook on a great scorer 1-on-1, I bet Westbrook guards him better. But if we’re talking team defense, Rose was the leader of the best team defense in the league.
And trust me, I’m not blown away by Durant either, he wasn’t good in the playoffs and was shut down by single defenders. And I thought the media did overdo how Westbrook didn’t pass it to him. However, defenders were happy to let Russ shoot jumpers from the perimeter, and he was happy to take them and he missed a good chunk of them.
Defenders sagged off Westbrook and he didn’t score efficiently anyway.
Also, yes Chicago has guys you need to cover, but on OKC you ignored Harden, who had a great playoffs, Cook and Sefalosha who are capable of hitting open 3s, and Ibaka, who has a pretty solid midrange game and is obviously capable around the basket
Rose led the best defensive team in the NBA, and since it’s pretty much known defense starts up top (where Rose plays), he’s a terrific team defender.
Carlos Arroyo and Mike Bibby take exception to your use of that sports cliche
But if we’re talking team defense, Rose was the leader of the best team defense in the league.
well I mean, any of their players could be called the “leader,” they were great also because of their other players, the coach, etc. point is this is a logically unsound argument.
And trust me, I’m not blown away by Durant either, he wasn’t good in the playoffs and was shut down by single defenders. And I thought the media did overdo how Westbrook didn’t pass it to him. However, defenders were happy to let Russ shoot jumpers from the perimeter, and he was happy to take them and he missed a good chunk of them.
Defenders sagged off Westbrook and he didn’t score efficiently anyway.
Definitely wasn’t his best series. The Mavs overwhelmed the Thunder by taking away their most two effective offensive options (Durant with the ball in his hands, Westbrook driving to the basket). as I said below of course Miami also did this to Rose and the Bulls
Also, yes Chicago has guys you need to cover, but on OKC you ignored Harden, who had a great playoffs, Cook and Sefalosha who are capable of hitting open 3s, and Ibaka, who has a pretty solid midrange game and is obviously capable around the basket
Sefolosha is basically Bogans. Cook is a very mediocre shooter that Miami felt wasn’t worthy on a team that needed shooters around James/Wade/Bosh. Ibaka is a worse Noah on offense.
Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!
by The Rooster on Jun 28, 2011 12:20 AM EDT up reply actions
Cook was actually traded before the Big 3 all teamed up
I bet they would have been glad to keep him around had they been able to. He shot 42% 3FG, so he’s actually really not mediocre.
I’ll give you Sefalosha though, who is like Bogans, but considerably worse from beyond the arc. However, his offensive game is probably all around more polished in terms of attacking the basket, so he is still somewhat of a threat.
I’m not sure what’s logically unsound about my argument that Rose is a better team defender. The defense starts up top where he plays and he communicates with his teammates and carries out his coach’s instructions better than Westbrook does for OKC. Thus… he’s a better team defender
Alright.
Derrick Rose was the best player on the #1 overall seed in this year’s playoffs.
Russell Westbrook was the second best player on the seventh overall seed in this year’s playoffs.
The difference was seven losses.
Their stats are pretty similar in terms of shooting percentage, points, three point percentage, assists, etc. The difference is that you’d rather have the better decision-maker and the winner.
If you worked for the Oklahoma City Thunder and you asked the Chicago Bulls if they would trade Rose for Westbrook, they would laugh until they passed out.
Derrick Rose was the best player on the #1 overall seed in this year’s playoffs.
Russell Westbrook was the second best player on the seventh overall seed in this year’s playoffs.
The difference was seven losses.
All of this is circumstantial and thus irrelevant. Supporting cast, strength of schedule, what’s asked of them, etc. By this logic Westbrook is penalized for having one great better teammate and not many good worse teammates, and Rose is rewarded for the opposite – because the situation is created to favor Rose. I could make similarly illogical arguments in favor of Westbrook ad infinitum.
Their stats are pretty similar in terms of shooting percentage, points, three point percentage, assists, etc. The difference is that you’d rather have the better decision-maker and the winner.
There’s really no reason why Rose gets the gold star in either of those categories. Rose has never been farther in the playoffs than Westbrook, and showed shaky decision-making of his own in critical situations. Winner? If he’s not missing a game-tying free throw, he’s forcing up a bad shot against three defenders or turning the ball over in clutch situations.
If you worked for the Oklahoma City Thunder and you asked the Chicago Bulls if they would trade Rose for Westbrook, they would laugh until they passed out.
If you switch them before last season, Westbrook is the reigning MVP.
Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!
by The Rooster on Jun 27, 2011 12:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Derrick Rose's supporting cast is Luol Deng and Joakim Noah.
Russ’s is KEVIN FUCKING DURANT.
Which changes the roles both players play
and skews the entire comparison. You’re just opting to look at it favor of Rose.
oh yeah, Boozer doesn’t exist now.
Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!
But you're just opting to look at it in favor of Westbrook!
I don’t even have that strong an opinion on the matter, I just think you’re using faulty logic because you don’t like Rose (which is totally acceptable).
Not really
The issue is that there’s an illogical presupposition stating Rose is better than Westbrook which exists for no reason at all (well, maybe for reasons such as media exposure, big vs. small market, etc.). If you remove it, the argument changes drastically.
I have no problem with Rose, who’s a fantastic player, but the prevailing perceptions of Rose = great and Westbrook = flawed are based largely on ESPN-esque bullshit narrative. If you just look at them as Player A vs. Player B, I’d argue that Westbrook is the better of the two, but nobody arguing in favor of Rose ever approaches it like that, instead relying on the false prevailing sentiment that Rose is better no questions asked.
Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!
I feel like it can't be resolved on facts or stats or anything
Just watching them, Rose feels so much more in control than Westbrook.
Honestly answer, biases aside because we are all biased because our minds are made up as to who is better: If you took Durant off the Thunder, would OKC be as good as Chicago was? Because other than Durant, the two teams are pretty similar.
To me, I choose Rose all day over Westbrook because I think his PG skills and leadership, and scoring actually, too, are all better.
Also, Boozer should be a great 2nd option for Rose, because he is an All-Star PF, but that just goes to show how much better of a PG D-Will is than both of them ;)
Because other than Durant, the two teams are pretty similar.
Except for Chicago’s two additional high-efficiency 18+ppg scorers compared to OKC’s zero.
Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!
by The Rooster on Jun 28, 2011 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions
Rose's team isn't nearly as good as Westbrooks
nor is as good as Howard’s. The guy is a one man army and while, like Westbrook, its debatable on whether or not he’s really a PG..if you’re going to list him as a PG..he’s in the top 3, easily and hands down.
Everyone aside from Rose, Deron and CP3 are in the next tier, and its pretty far down.
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
You're defining good as "good at offense"
Which is what is more visible and where the stats are. And that’s true, because the Bulls weren’t that good. But their defense was much better and they were #1 in rebounding. He has the perfect surrounding cast, guys who can get rebounds to get him more shots, and defend for him.
You're looking at it that way
but I’m looking at more then just one side. OKC is a good defensive team as well, much better defensively then the Bulls are offensively.
So…I change nothing. Westbrook’s supporting cast is much better then Rose’s.
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
I have them at 13
and its mere 0.001 off of being top 7. I change nothing.
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
by Rorschach44 on Jun 27, 2011 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Well, percentage-wise, Rose shot a few points better in terms of FG% (.445 vs .442) and 3pt% (.332 vs .330) last season, and significantly better from the line (.860 vs .842).
In terms of each guy’s career numbers, Rose is much better, shooting .468/.309/.815 to Westbrook’s mediocre .421/.274/.816.
Rose has, for two years, been his team’s only real offensive threat, which would in theory bring his FG% numbers down because teams area able to double team him, and spend their timeouts thinking of how to contain him. Westbrook is also a very good scorer, but for his career he has been surrounded by excellent shooters such as Kevin Durant, James Harden, and Jeff Green, so he has never been the first player on the opponent’s mind. Playing with good shooters brings up a player’s assists per game rate, because he has teammates who are able to score easily once passed the ball.
Actually early in their careers it was the exact opposite
Rose played with Gordon and Salmons and wasn’t expected to carry the team offensively. Westbrook played with Durant and nobody else. Green was terrible, and Harden was a non-factor until this season. “Excellent shooters” is a joke right?
Now, Westbrook doesn’t have Rose’s license to create his own offense whenever he wants, and we don’t know what positive or negative effect that has on his percentages. We do know that Rose is assisted on more of his shots than Westbrook, so Westbrook is presumably having a tougher time finding good looks.
From a simple 5-on-5 standpoint, teams only have to worry about one other scorer on the Thunder (Durant, who’s shown he can be shut down by a single defender) while they have to worry about two on the Bulls (Boozer and Deng). Teams don’t double Rose as much as change the principles of their help defense. I’d call it even as far as how much resistance each player meets when trying to create offense.
Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!
We do know that Rose is assisted on more of his shots than Westbrook, so Westbrook is presumably having a tougher time finding good looks.
Or Westbrook just isn’t as good of a shooter/scorer. Also, that Rose is assisted on more of his FG may just indicate he’s a better playmaker (which does mean more than just getting assists).
From a simple 5-on-5 standpoint, teams only have to worry about one other scorer on the Thunder (Durant, who’s shown he can be shut down by a single defender) while they have to worry about two on the Bulls (Boozer and Deng). Teams don’t double Rose as much as change the principles of their help defense. I’d call it even as far as how much resistance each player meets when trying to create offense.
That last paragraph is just… wow. Let’s be real, looking at this season alone, Boozer and Deng together averaged just under 35 ppg. OKC’s two best scorers besides Westbrook, are Durant and Harden, who combined averaged just under 40 ppg. I think teams fret alot more about shutting down Durant than they do Boozer and Deng, and if you’re gonna say it’s been proven that one defender can shut down Durant, then it’s pretty obvious to say Carlos Boozer and Luol Deng can be shut down as well.
Also, while Durant did get somewhat shut down in the playoffs (he’s as much to blame as Westbrook for OKC losing – he showed he’s soft), he still led the league in scoring, so you can argue he’s one of the least shut down-able players in the NBA.
You were trying to be fair by saying they face equal resistance, but it’s just not true. We all saw how Miami’s defense didn’t allow Rose to get his teammates involved and therefore focused even more on keeping him from scoring. Teams slacked off on Westbrook on the perimeter and focused more on KD, and Russ still wasn’t able to produce in a successful manner
Or Westbrook just isn’t as good of a shooter/scorer. Also, that Rose is assisted on more of his FG may just indicate he’s a better playmaker (which does mean more than just getting assists).
It could mean a lot of things, for example that OKC’s offensive schemes are worse than Chicago’s (and Brooks is a pretty terrible coach – I don’t like Thibs as a game-day coach but he’s way better schematically).
Generally, players with a lower % of shots assisted are forced to create for themselves more often. In Rose’s case, he’s playing within the system and doing his part correctly, and when someone assists his shot, the assister is “making the play.”
I don’t know, point is there’s no way you can look at that data and conclude that Rose is definitely better. I’d call them even as scorers.
That last paragraph is just… wow. Let’s be real, looking at this season alone, Boozer and Deng together averaged just under 35 ppg. OKC’s two best scorers besides Westbrook, are Durant and Harden, who combined averaged just under 40 ppg. I think teams fret alot more about shutting down Durant than they do Boozer and Deng, and if you’re gonna say it’s been proven that one defender can shut down Durant, then it’s pretty obvious to say Carlos Boozer and Luol Deng can be shut down as well.
Yes, but that’s two players as opposed to one requiring regular attention, making it harder to commit help defense to Rose than to Westbrook.
Also, while Durant did get somewhat shut down in the playoffs (he’s as much to blame as Westbrook for OKC losing – he showed he’s soft), he still led the league in scoring, so you can argue he’s one of the least shut down-able players in the NBA.
You were trying to be fair by saying they face equal resistance, but it’s just not true. We all saw how Miami’s defense didn’t allow Rose to get his teammates involved and therefore focused even more on keeping him from scoring. Teams slacked off on Westbrook on the perimeter and focused more on KD, and Russ still wasn’t able to produce in a successful manner
In the Dallas series they made Westbrook beat a good defender one-on-one while committing a very generous amount of help defense, which is about the same thing Miami did to Rose. Neither player succeeded. I don’t think Durant’s presence makes a difference because his inability to get open against Shawn Marion made him no more effective as an overall offensive player than Luol Deng.
Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!
by The Rooster on Jun 28, 2011 12:12 AM EDT up reply actions
Fair enough
If we’re looking at their playoff performances, particularly the Conference Finals, then we should acknowledge both of their teams were outdone by better teams.
No problems with what you said here
can Iman play pick-n-roll PG?
i’ve been trying to find a video of him playing good PnR offense. all the videos i see are him clanking in a jumper or some athletic move to the basket
Donnie said that was a strength of Shump's
and I assume the poor guy watched more GT film than any of us could ever tolerate, so I’ll take his word for it.
Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!
i hope you're right man
it would be sweet to breath a sigh of relief when burps goes out. I swear, it’s the same when felton goes to the bench before the trade. the team just goes haywire.
by JVGsDietCoke on Jun 26, 2011 10:00 PM EDT up reply actions
RealGM Draft Grade
Iman Shumpert is an incredibly versatile player with the type of athleticism and pure skill to become a very good player. If Phil Jackson takes over a year from now, I’ll adjust this grade to an A because he would be an excellent Triangle point guard. I applaud the teams that chose to gamble in this draft and Shumpert is one of the bigger boom/bust picks, though at the very least he will be one of their better backcourt defensive players.
Read more: http://basketball.realgm.com/article/214377/Grading_The_Draft_2011_Edition#ixzz1QRFKwfXE
wow!! B+ for the knicks' draft.
that’s the most generous grade i’ve seen so far
by JVGsDietCoke on Jun 26, 2011 10:20 PM EDT up reply actions
he does seem like one of those point forwards that work so well in the Triangle
obviously Scottie Pippen is a stretch but I think that’s the sort of player he is. That works when you have someone like Billups or TD on the court cuz they’re both much better off the ball.
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
by Rorschach44 on Jun 26, 2011 10:22 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't see how Shumpert is a good triangle point guard
I think Toney Douglas would be a great triangle point guard. But I think Shumpert can be a better non-triangle point guard than Douglas.
I get the Pippen comparison, but Pippen was a big small forward and Shumpert would be undersized at the 3, though I think he could play there.
Shumpert is gonna be legit.
He’s actually bigger, much bigger, than Westbrook. Russell is about 6-3, 190; Shumpert is 6-6, 220. If Iman is anywhere near as explosive, we’re golden.
He doesn’t need to be able to shoot. All he has to do is explode into the paint off the PnR and force a switch and/or the defense to collapse. If he runs it with the center, whoever that is (Turiaf/Jordan/Jorts), it’ll be tough to stop. Can’t double off Melo or Amare or Billups or your dead. Can’t guard Shump with a center and you can’t guard our center with a guard.
He could be used to force favorable match-ups whether he can hit a jumper or not. All he has to do is use a pick to get to the paint.
by Crackback on Jun 26, 2011 10:11 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
people are knocking his shooting
but as long as the guy just takes it to the basket I’ll be perfectly happy.
Watch the highlights against UNC this year. If Shump plays like that this year hell be a great pickup.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzm7FxEsiG0&feature=related
He was also guarding Harrison Barnes in that game who finished 3 of 13 for 11 points and 2 turnovers
Found this Gem
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmJKeCY8gwg&feature=related
Explains alot.Kid never really had a position or a role(well a set one) in college.Having Paul fucking Hewitt as a coach would do that to you though.
for you old schoolers if Iman turns into a Nate McMillan type of a PG then you've scored a hit
I don’t see how he could be compared to a Westbrook or Rose, entirely different types of players
"Man, I've got vision and the rest of the world wears bifocals."
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
"Franchise Tag: Enabling Incompetent Owners to remain imcompetent"
"Contenders do; pretenders give excuses why they did not"
"Yes everybody does have an opinion; but that does not make your opinion any less wrong"
"That ought to stop your bitchin"
similar height maybe. skill sets... way unfair
"Man, I've got vision and the rest of the world wears bifocals."
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
"Franchise Tag: Enabling Incompetent Owners to remain imcompetent"
"Contenders do; pretenders give excuses why they did not"
"Yes everybody does have an opinion; but that does not make your opinion any less wrong"
"That ought to stop your bitchin"
He actually seems to be similar to Westbrook
I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is that moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle - victorious.
Vince Lombardi
He sees himself as a Westbrook type player
Also in one of his predraft videos he mentions that one reason for his taking so many difficult shots is that he has never played with a dominant wing player. This is before he knew he would play with Melo and Stat.
All the new hotshot point guards are short
6’3" and under. Rondo makes up for that a bit with his wingspan, but I think if Shumpert plays the point he’s going to give these guys problems on both ends of the floor. I tend to be skeptical that his shooting percentage will make a huge leap up in the pros, but if his defense brings the opposing point guards FG% down 5 or 10 points, that’s like adding 5 or 10 points to his. Bring Shump’s college FG% up 5 points and he’s a lottery pick. Bring it up 10 points and the guys a #1 pick.
For some reason, defensive, athletic forwards with questionable shooting are considered super-valuable but if the guy’s a guard, the deals off. Rondo got picked late because of this. I don’t know how valuable Shump’s going to end up being, but I don’t see any reason why picking Shumpert is any worse than picking Singleton, Kawhi Leonard, or Faried. Especially because the Knicks are set at the forward spots.
The reason for a guy like Chris Singleton or Kawhi Leonard being more highly touted than Shumpert is that the league is dominated by Forwards right now. 4 of the top 10 players in the league are basically SFs … Lebron, Durant , Melo and Dirk.
I saw one site downgrade the Knicks becayse they felt the Knicks got a great defensive player at a position where there aren’t really anymore great players. Wade is the best shooting guard in the NBA but after him who’s next Joe Johnson ? … But what they aren’t realizing is even if shumpert doesn’t play PG for the Knicks he can play in the backcourt with Billups and guard the Rose , Westbrooks and to a much much much much lesser degree Rajon Rondos of the NBA because Billups can guard most NBA SGs and struggles against the quicker PGs … He also can play the PG position with Landry Fields at the 2 or be the defacto PG with Toney Douglas who’s more of a scorer. So that’s why the Knicks drafted him and not Singleton which is smart considering Shawn3 Williams is their 6th man and they already have Melo and Amare.
Now get me a shot blocking / rebound grabbing center who doesn’t need to score and another Big to spell Amare and we’ve got a squad.
by TheBXRepresenta on Jun 27, 2011 10:37 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Well said
I saw one site downgrade the Knicks becayse they felt the Knicks got a great defensive player at a position where there aren’t really anymore great players.
That’s more of a reach than drafting Shumpert at 17 was! I mean, in the east, you’ve got Derrick Rose, John Wall, Rondo, Kyrie Irving, Wade… these guys need to be slowed down
fer realz
i thought the prevailing thought was this was becoming a pg dominated league!
I guess until the knicks acknowledged it and drafted based on it… then all of a sudden the story switches.
I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."
People reachin' to hate the Knicks
Aint nothin new. Same reason no one wanted to sell Dolan any picks except league-owned New Orleans
Get The Frickin' Rebound
it'd be purty strange for Dolan's wallet to suddenly develop a conscience.
Maybe we should just make Isiah masks for Wark, Grunwald, Etc for when they ask Dolan for money.
by GAx on Jun 27, 2011 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
He won't only guard shooting guards, he's quick and athletic enough to guard 1's and long and strong enough to guard 3's.
We’ve seen smaller guys play great D on good small forwards, DeShawn Stevenson, Jason Kidd, Rajon Rondo have all played effective D on LeBron, Dahntay Jones plays great D on Melo every time, etc. He’s bigger and stroger than all of those guys.
Great point
I’m gonna be nitpicky here for a second though. I dbout Shumpert is stronger than guys like Stevenson or Jones, or as crafty as Kidd or Rondo, especially as a rookie.
But I do agree, that he can switch onto SFs and he’s got great size and tools to guard PGs, which the NBA is currently the breeding ground of
way too much time
stupid lockout. finally a team I want to watch!
I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."
Hey if the guy can develop into a better back up point than
Toney Douglas and allow Douglas to do what he does best which is look to score and be a pest on defense, then I say its a win/win. Because Face it folks no matter how hard Toney works at being a point guard, he has more Jason Terry in his game than he will ever have Jason Kidd!
by Robert Curre on Jun 27, 2011 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah I haven't quite bought
the Shumpert pick meaning Toney is on his way out. Seems like it’ll help cover some of the deficiencies that come up with TD at the 2, like Snow/Iverson if Iverson were way worse and Snow was (hopfully) way better
Rose vs Westbrook
In my opinion their equal. Rose scored more points per game but he took over a 100 more shots to do it. Westbrook has Durant and Rose doesn’t and won more games … Ok Westbrook plays in the western conference against better competitiion.
They’re basically the same player. Ultra-athletic score first PGs …what this has to do with the Knicks or Iman " Thee Man" Shumpert is beyond me.
by TheBXRepresenta on Jun 27, 2011 10:22 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
I'll rec that.
I’d say Westbrook and Rose are pretty darn close skill-wise. I’d give an edge to Rose’s decision-making and Westbrook is probably a better defender, but they’re aggregate basketball value is probably the same.
"But when he saw it, he just put his hands up and they couldn’t give it to him. It just fell to the ground, I-I don’t, you know … So, that showed me he had great experience..." - Jeff Van Gundy
by Anthony Bonner's Subpoena on Jun 27, 2011 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Another reason Shump is like Chandler;
He’s wearing the same number.
http://twitter.com/#!/I_Am_Iman/status/84387355691192320
"So much ice on my windshield you'd think I just robbed a Kay Jeweler. "
-LF
More importantly, it's the same number that Ariza wore
Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!
I expect at least two failed dunks from 18ft away per game from Iman
carry on the legacy!
Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!
hahahah
I loved Ariza though..we rarely get rookies who can actually play. Or at least kinda play. :(
I loved Ariza too
The news of the Steve Francis trade was just painful. Thinking about it still hurts me deeply.
Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!
Josh Selby...
was actually drafted by the Grizzlies.
I love the pick-up of Jose Harrellson
I sprinkle diamonds on everything I eat...1. its the most baller shit ever! 2. it makes my dookie twinkle baby.
hahaha...
damn…trying to quadruple task at work…but damn haha, not intentional.
I sprinkle diamonds on everything I eat...1. its the most baller shit ever! 2. it makes my dookie twinkle baby.
by GottaLoveMelo on Jun 28, 2011 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions
well the Knicks do have the Mets' colors
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
Goddamit no we don't.
I don’t know how I never caught onto it until a couple years ago, but now that it’s in my head, the Knicks have given me enough misery that I don’t need to associate the godforsaken Mets with ’em.
Iman was a GREAT pick... why?
Because he WAS on Georgia Tech! And I mean that because that team had ZERO coaching, and yet, he was still more than capable. The dude knows what to do, but has never been coached how to do it. Paul Hewitt was a great recruiter that couldn’t coach Ronald McDonald at a children’s hospital.
This is a high upside, low risk pick for a guy that can come in an play D and give Chauncy a breather. Oh yeah, and Chauncy, that guy could probably teach him a few things too.
Wow, that Ronald McDonald comparison. I just love it.
Also, I think you’re right. More often than not in this day and age, players who come out of Georgia Tech
tend to be described as “raw.” What’s with that damn coach?
for one thing... the guys seem to be coming out early...
Favors was a frosh, wasn’t Barsh a soph? I’m feeling lazy right now but it feels like they generate a lot of early entries… which may explain the ‘rawness’ of said prospects.
"Madison Square Garden is the ultimate basketball stage. That's where I belong. That's where I live. That's the home of the New York Knicks." - Amar'e Stoudemire
by Chris Child's Fist on Jun 28, 2011 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Barsh was a frosh
also I think Crittenton was one and Steph will always be a frosh
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
Yeah but Morrow was there awhile, wasn't he?
And how about Gani Lawal? Are there others I’m missing?
kenny anderson - freshman
http://www.databasebasketball.com/players/bycollege.htm?sch=Georgia+Institute+of+Technology
interesting list, morrow for two years.
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