Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Russell Westbrook and Kevin Durant's Post-Game 5 Outfits

Interesting Lockout Quote - Discuss!


Alright.  Lockout could very well happen tonight, guys.  It sucks for everytone, no doubt.  But I was looking through and didn;t really find much of an exclusive Lockout Thread to gauge who thinks what about what.  Maybe this can sort of entertain us for a while.  Surely we love to argue and debate! 


I found an interesting quote and a couple quick thoughts to get rollin'.  Let's take a stroll...

Star-divide

 

So full disclosure- I fall on the players side for the most part.  Do I support them 100%?  No.  Maybe it's more like 85-90%.  My thing is, the NBA is a business like just about everything else.  Technically the players are employees.  However, they are the ones generating the money.  They are also the product.  That complicates things a bit obviously.  Employees are always the greatest expense to a company.

Given that though, it is the owners who make the call on contracts.  We know all about having 'bad contracts' on our team in the past but can you really blame the players for that?  They are out to make money like the owners are, but shit, you think Jerome James had to think twice when Isiah and the Knicks offered him $30 over 5yrs??  Deep down, dude knew that no one else would offer him close to that so he better jump now.  I blame the owners for decisions like that.  Especially now  when they are trying to play victim here by talking about how out of control player salaries are.  I have little sympathy for that since it was them who could have said a long time ago... "Shit, do we really need to pay Brad Miller $5 Mil to be hurt every other week?" 

Now, on the flip side, if you own an NBA Team, you ought to be the one making the most money off your team.  I have no issue with owners making money.  Shit, they BOUGHT the team at some point.  They may be losing money because of bad decisions, but the system shouldn't  be weighted as such that the players make half the revenue.  I know it isn't that even a split, but there IS a bit of revenue sharing.  One of the aspects of this new CBA is the owners wanting to carve off a larger % of the revenue sharing they have to give to the players.  I understand that and agree with it as long as it's not something drastic like a 95% owners/ 5% players.  Maybe something closer to 80% / 20%, I dunno.  The point is the owners DO deserve to make most of the revenue.  Players have their contracts.  The seeming beef on this point though is the owners want to rollback player salaries drastically AND skew the revenue sharing in their favor as well.  That is a little much. 

It's not much of a secret that both sides are far apart in terms of negotiating a new CBA.  The owners seem to be heavily committed to rolling back salaries significantly and wantign to institute a tougher team salary cap, amongst other things.  The players claim to be willing to limit salaries, just not the drastic rollback the owners are demanding.  They seem to say too they would be willing to lessen their revenue sharing as well, BUT not if the owners are going to rollback salaries as much as they want. 

The league has made claims of losing like $300 Mil this season, but another point of contention is the players don;t buy that number.  They have requested numerous times to see how the league came to that conclusion, but the league has yet to share that information.  The players argue that this is a partnership, so the league should be willing to share all of its data.  I would understand that POV.  I believe the Players Union calculate calculated the financial loss to be more like $62Mil.  I dont have that exact number though.  But that is a huge discrepency.

Anyways, let me wrap this with a quote from a Mark Bartelstein in Marc Spears latest column.  I found it very interesting.  Of course Bartelstein is a player agent, so his natural bias should be understood, but regardless, it's a very good point.

“Just look at the proposal the owners have made: How do you expect anyone to respond to that in good faith?” agent Mark Bartelstein said. “It’s laughable. GMs around the league have acknowledged that to me. Every GM has acknowledged that there’s nowhere for the players to go with what’s been proposed by the owners.

“The system doesn’t work for the players now, because it’s so restrictive. It doesn’t work for the owners because they’ve made a lot of bad decisions. That’s the reality. This is a horrible system for the NBA player, incredibly restrictive in every way you look at it. If the NBA owners can’t be successful in this system, blame that on nothing but poor management.”

Henry Abbott from ESPN has an interesting article as well.  11 Thoughts About the End of the CBA. ESPN is a bunch of asshats, but every once in a while they do something ok.

Lastly, Mike Monroe of SA Express posted this column yesterday. It Only Gets Harder for Owners and Players

Here’s the truly bad news: Once the lockout begins, the standoff is going to get nastier.

According to NBA executives familiar with the league’s strategies, once the lockout is in place, the owners will push for a hard salary cap of $45 million, the elimination of guaranteed contracts and ask that the players swallow a 33 percent salary cut.

The concessions made in recent weeks, including the “flex cap” of $62 million and a guarantee of $2 billion in annual player payroll, will be off the table.

Now THAT would be some bullshit.  I don't know what makes them think that sort of threat would work.  I think the real problem is not so much Owners vs Players, but it's Owners vs Owners.  These guys allow these shitty contracts because if they don't offer them, another team will.  Those guys don't give a shit about each other!  Someone is always willing to pay and that won't change.  But blaming the players as if they should turn down contracts like that, man, that's just a pipe dream to say the least.  It's not like these owners are struggling... dudes are multi-millionaires.  BILLIONAIRES in some cases. 

Anyways, I'm interested in what Posting & Toasting feels about all of this.

Poll
Which side do you tend to side with?
Playas Union Fo'eva!!
21 votes
Owners, baby! What whaaaat!!
2 votes
More towards the Players, but Owners kinda gotta eat too
32 votes
More towards the Owners, but damn, they still need the Players!
5 votes
Fuck 'em both... where's the remote?
27 votes

87 votes | Poll has closed

Comment 336 comments  |  1 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

More from Posting and Toasting

Wednesday Caucasian Toads

Feb 2012 by Seth - 22 comments

Might Brad Miller be a Knick target?

Apr 2010 by Seth - 105 comments

P&T&T-Mobile Ticket Contest #5

Feb 2010 by Seth - 60 comments

P&T&T-Mobile Ticket Contest #3

Jan 2010 by Seth - 50 comments

P&T&T-Mobile Ticket Contest #2

Jan 2010 by Seth - 76 comments

Comments

Display:

When we're talking about owners

I’m often wondering if all owners want such a drastic salary cap and reductions in salary, owners like Mark Cuban and Dolan can’t seriously be for such a restrictive cap, can they?

by ubd on Jun 30, 2011 12:46 PM EDT reply actions  

There's probably a handful of owners

That actually have building a winning team as their first priority.

I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is that moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle - victorious.

Vince Lombardi

by moose35 on Jun 30, 2011 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

the thought seems to be from the small market owners mostly

The NBa has a numebr of newer, younger team owners who seem to be much more cut-throat in terms of business saavy. I’m sure guys like Cuban, Dolan, etc aren’t the guys pushign muscle. I mean, sure they want salaries to be cheaper and such, but it’s the smaller market teams that are sort of the catalysts i believe.

And Its further complicating thigns because once the CBA with the Players is settled… well, the owners want to revenue share amongst themselves too. So this all seems to really be owner v owner with the players as a supposed pawn. Everyone is greedy, yeah, but its just ridiculous.

"Madison Square Garden is the ultimate basketball stage. That's where I belong. That's where I live. That's the home of the New York Knicks." - Amar'e Stoudemire

by Chris Child's Fist on Jun 30, 2011 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wow, the owners must be on crack

How on earth do they plan on implementing that low of a hard cap? Are they out of their minds?

If an owner makes a bad decision, he should be punished for it. They just seem to want to limit the risk of running a business. If an owner offers a ridiculously large contract to a player that doesn’t deserve it, he should be the one losing money, and not the players by accepting it. Come on man.

I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is that moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle - victorious.

Vince Lombardi

by moose35 on Jun 30, 2011 12:49 PM EDT reply actions  

right... they don't want to take any responsibility for their own shitty decisions!

"Madison Square Garden is the ultimate basketball stage. That's where I belong. That's where I live. That's the home of the New York Knicks." - Amar'e Stoudemire

by Chris Child's Fist on Jun 30, 2011 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

How would they do that though

Seriously. Do you guys realized that back in the 70s the league was losing money and the owners decided that they should cut back player salaries. There wasn’t a lockout, the owners just got together and said, we are not going to pay certain guys more than X amount of dollars. Well Bob McAdoo and several other players sued the owner’s and the league for collusion. The players won the case. So now if the owners agree, you know we have given out some really stupid contracts so let’s not do that anymore, the only way they can do that is with the players permission and if they do not get it, then the only legal recourse they have is to lock the players out.

by Robert Curre on Jun 30, 2011 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

You're right about the collusion.

They can lessen player salaries…. the players have said they would be willing to cut back salaries a little. But look at the supposed demands of the owners. They aren’t willing to negotiate. They are purely trying to strongarm everything. It’s one thing to rlll back salaries… it’s another to expect them to agree to a 33% paycut!!!!!!!!!! AND take less from revenue sharing!!

Instead, the owners are playing victim. Saying they lost money because of spiraling player contracts. They could say… bad decsions have been made, now the whole league is paying the price. things DO need to change. But they should recognize their own role in the events leading up to it. They just are not.

"Madison Square Garden is the ultimate basketball stage. That's where I belong. That's where I live. That's the home of the New York Knicks." - Amar'e Stoudemire

by Chris Child's Fist on Jun 30, 2011 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

You are right! If Chris Paul can only get 67 million next year instead of the 100 mil

Amar’e got, how in the hell is he supposed to feed his kids? Marc Gasol may waste away to nothing if instead of getting 82 million like David Lee, he only gets 55 million! When folks look at the amount of money that is actually changing hands, 33% is not that big of a deal.

Do folks realize that players salaries have tripled since 1990 and the mone has not kept pace. Madision Square Garden can only hold 19,800 people for a basketball game. And while you can keep raising prices sooner or later you will have priced the fans out. In fact the league is losing money because the fans have already been priced out. Do folks realize that the league was making up the difference with Corporations buying up tickets. Well after all the corporate issues and recession, corporate money has all but dried up.

by Robert Curre on Jun 30, 2011 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Just sayin... every Whopper deserves cheese on it, Robert!!

No doubt it is richer people going after rich people. But of course I see your point and even agree with it to a certain extent. But yeah, even as the top tier players still get their multi-multi millions, but middle and bottom tier take the hit too.

Now they still make enough to order extra cheese on their pizza, but in expecting the player salaries to make up the difference in losses faced, ownership essentially says “Its the Players fault, not ours.” Not much of a ‘partnership’, dude.

BOTH sides need to take the hit. not just the Owners and not just the players. both.

"Madison Square Garden is the ultimate basketball stage. That's where I belong. That's where I live. That's the home of the New York Knicks." - Amar'e Stoudemire

by Chris Child's Fist on Jun 30, 2011 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

No it is the owners fault for paying the players their ridiculous contracts

But once they say I fucked up, how do they fix it? The only option is to have a lockout and try to force their terms. and as for the bottom tier guys, they too will not be starving Jared Jeffries made 37 million over the last 5 years. if he was paid 33 percent less he would have made 25 million, which is a nice chunk of change,

by Robert Curre on Jun 30, 2011 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah but the point is

They fucked up and made bad business decisions. They’re implementing a more risk-free system for the future instead of trying to make better decisions, which I can’t agree with.

I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is that moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle - victorious.

Vince Lombardi

by moose35 on Jun 30, 2011 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

in the interest of equity...

because i will most certainly not defend either side with any sort of sympathy… but the owners, in order to generate continued interest in their teams, for revenue purposes, are forced to overpay lesser talent just to entice free agents to their podunk towns.

by bucketsncents on Jun 30, 2011 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Giving Drew Gooden 5yr/30m isn't something you do to sell season tickets

it’s something to do when you feel like you have no responsibly to make good financial decisions because you can yank their contracts away from them at your leisure come CBA time

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jun 30, 2011 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

not just about being responsible...

if gooden is the only guy with a hint of talent available, and willing to sign with the small market cavs… you gotta sign him. what’s an owner going to do, not sign anyone and just be fiscally responsible? and than they end up losing money ‘cause the fans hate the team because the owner doesn’t care about winning games. some times owners do have to overpay to get a player to move to their city.

by bucketsncents on Jun 30, 2011 7:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wha?
if gooden is the only guy with a hint of talent available, and willing to sign with the small market cavs… you gotta sign him.

NO YOU DON’T. That’s how Detroit blew all their cap space two years ago on Ben Gordon and Charlie Villaneuva.

Cap room is not a hot potato. It gives you flexibility to make moves for the future. Sometimes I think we haven’t learned anything from those years in the wilderness under Isiah.

by Doug Chu on Jul 1, 2011 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think they've come to a point where they've realized and said amongst themselves "Fellas. We done fucked up."

It’s more “I’m paying Corey Maggette HOW much?” And then next season they give another undeserving dude Bad Porn-type money. As it is, CBA negotiations are the only time the owners are unified, and it takes their incompetence and lack of oversight to get them all around the table nodding in unison. Every other minute of the year they’re in-fighting and bidding up the price on the other guy’s players..until the next CBA expires and they come together going “THIS IS OUT OF CONTROL.”

When they finally come to a place where they realize their decision making is unfeasible for the league, they can fix it by simply not letting their competitive/fiduciary hunger for success cloud their budget. Otherwise we end up with Rashard Lewis and your team is fucked.

33% of a huge number is still a big number, sure, but just out of principle why should the players be giving up their cash to help band-aid over the financial ills the owners themselves created? Practicality-wise it’ll keep the league afloat if its really in that bad a shape and etc, but the buck stops with the owners.

by GAx on Jun 30, 2011 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

what if they all agreed to not pay guys over...

say, 15 million per year in the interest of being fiscally responsible? wouldn’t that be considered collusion? so in essence, they’re damned if they stay fiscally responsible… and they’re damned if they don’t?

by bucketsncents on Jun 30, 2011 8:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

I wouldn't suggest that the owners all get together and agree on tiered ceiling caps to player salaries.

I WOULD suggest simply exercising some fiscal responsibility. If you’re a small market team like Charlotte, hire a capologist to your front office like Rich Cho. If you feel you absolutely have to retain your Agent Zero and max him out as was the trend at the time, structure your other players’ salaries in ways that’ll benefit the making of a team like Presti did(with a lot of drafting luck).

Don’t max out a secondary/arguably third best player named Rashard Lewis whilst somehow bidding only against yourself, Otis Smith. Don’t max out Joe Johnson and then go “Oh shit.” Don’t whine and try to the poor dude for years right after you go and give Iguodala franchise player money because..what? His initials? I mean what’d you expect? Don’t Layden. Don’t Isiah.

Unless the entire league inherited their money like Dolan, I’d expect a multi-millionaire Senator or a media mogul to run their team better than the Hawks and Bucks have been going. It’s amazing how opaque their mirrors must be if they can’t see what’s mainly causing the problem.

by GAx on Jun 30, 2011 10:54 PM EDT up reply actions   3 recs

I like cheese

Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows

by Rorschach44 on Jun 30, 2011 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

I mean that almost all of the league would be above that "hard cap"

And it would take many years for every single team to get below it, giving teams like the Mavericks, Lakers or Spurs absolutely no flexibility for a long time.

I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is that moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle - victorious.

Vince Lombardi

by moose35 on Jun 30, 2011 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

You have no way of knowing that

It might and it might not be an option. I’m just saying going from a 60-something million flexible cap to a 48 million hard cap is a stupid demand. Teams with a lot of long term contracts under the current CBA would be screwed.

I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is that moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle - victorious.

Vince Lombardi

by moose35 on Jun 30, 2011 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

I do know that because it is the only way teams could get under the hard cap, or

they would have to do things to get under the cap, like Miami trading Lebron James to the Wizards who will be under the hard cap.

by Robert Curre on Jun 30, 2011 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah its one of those "offers" that is made to be declined

You know, cus when push comes to shove… the owners can say “well, see, we made an offer… YOU just didn’t like it. Annnndd… if you wanted more, you should have taken the ealier deal.”

Its a bullshit offer.

"Madison Square Garden is the ultimate basketball stage. That's where I belong. That's where I live. That's the home of the New York Knicks." - Amar'e Stoudemire

by Chris Child's Fist on Jun 30, 2011 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

After we suffer through Eddy Curry

All the other bad deal teams get amnesty. I think Knick fans deserve a break this time around. Teams that don’t get amnesty deals should be given some sort of exception to the cap.
Also, have the owners showed their books yet? I’d like to see what they consider to be operating expenses. In other sports there are all sorts of sneaky ways for ownership to siphon off profits. Things like stadium parking and rent are gray areas. Also are owners financing the purchase of their teams with bank loans and then counting the payments on those loans as expenses? That would be troubling.

by YuckFou on Jun 30, 2011 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

ya know

i dont have much sympathy for either side.

These players make a ton of money. even the bad ones do. I mean, the knicks offer to D. Brown was just over a million bucks. Dude was cut and never plays and is making over a mil. They come into the nba with no student loans (unlike doctors/lawyers/everyone else) and live the life. I understand they dont want to give anything, but they are already making way… WAY… to much money.

Do they deserve what they get? Sure… whatever… but I dont feel bad for them.

But at the same time, yeah… the owners are the ones to get themselves into this mess. Hiring moron GMs, paying guys way more then what they are worth. Its a poor business model to just pay a guy more then he is worth because someone else is offering him too much…

If the owners are losing money its their own damn fault. A lockout should be an absolute last resort, not something that happens the second the agreement ends.

So, the players, on top of their salaries, get part of the revenue sharing? I dont get that at all… to be honest, they should receive 0% of that IMO. Their contracts should be more then enough.

The whole thing is pathetic.

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jun 30, 2011 12:52 PM EDT reply actions  

I really don't get how people can sympathise with owners

I’m not talking about you, but it seems like a lot of butthurt people whining about how much money the players make. They’ve dedicated themselves to the sport of basketball from an insanely young age and practiced day in and day out (I honestly don’t think people realize how much it takes to become a professional athlete in any sport). They took a giant risk in focusing on basketball rather than school and a safe job. Any serious injury could have derailed their whole career and they would be royally fucked. And that’s not including the 99% of basketball players that actually don’t make the NBA after working towards it their whole lives. They took a risk, were exceptionally good at what they do, and it paid off. Now they’re living the life, and they definitely deserve it.

On the other hand you have owners, who made an investment in a business. They should be treating it as such, where bad decisions make you lose income. If they want to save money, hire less competent players, coaches and GMs than I guess they can expect to lose money. When has a business ever been successful if it’s implementing cutbacks? The only teams losing money in the hugely successful NBA are the bad decision making small market teams imo. The rest of the league shouldn’t have to suffer because of their ineptitude.

I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is that moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle - victorious.

Vince Lombardi

by moose35 on Jun 30, 2011 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

while I agree with you in spirit

I disagree with:

They took a giant risk in focusing on basketball rather than school and a safe job.

Yes, becoming a professional basketball player takes dedication and talent and more hard work then I do on a given day…

but every one of these NBA players had either a full ride or partial ride to a top notch university. I understand it is hard to play and study, but plenty do it. Working to become a top NBA player does not mean you only have to be an NBA player. Any player that puts all his eggs into the NBA basket and doesnt make it doesnt get sympathy from me…

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jun 30, 2011 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

The "student-athlete" is a farce

Athletes are guided towards “easy” majors and are “aided” with all of their schoolwork. Those who want to pursue a harder major are often met with resistance from the athletic department. None of these players are being prepared for life after sports; they are being manufactured as money-making machines for the NCAA.

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jun 30, 2011 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Preach it Rooster! + 10000000!

I really am not a fan of the whole college amateur athletics thing. Those guys should be paid.

Get The Frickin' Rebound

by fuhry on Jun 30, 2011 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

i disagree emensly

but that is a discussion for another day.

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jun 30, 2011 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's a paradoxical thing

But if the NCAA is making money then the players should be getting compensated. They have coaches that make millions of dollars a year yet.

I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is that moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle - victorious.

Vince Lombardi

by moose35 on Jun 30, 2011 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

as someone with 3 degrees

and having worked my ass off to get them, and the advancement that education has given me…

saying that a college education is not compensation enough is bull and to be honest, I find insulting. they want to get paid, go play in europe.

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jun 30, 2011 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

to be fair

i have 2.5 degrees… one more year left on the last one.

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jun 30, 2011 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Part of the issue

is that “a college education” might not be a concrete entity.

by Seth on Jun 30, 2011 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

i am not sure i follow you here

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jun 30, 2011 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Just that different degrees are of different value

And even then, degrees can be achieved with varying amounts of work/commitment.

by Seth on Jun 30, 2011 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

so if college ballers got paid

do they all get paid the same? See how long that lasts…

do mid majors get to pay less per student then the majors? if so kiss any chance of them getting a great player goodbye.

a college degree is in fact a great way to “pay” the players because they have different value. it allows the better players to choose where they want to play. If they don’t put any stock into the quality of the education they receive in payment of their playing… well, that is their risk to take.

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jun 30, 2011 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well it's not an easy solution, dude.

But the idea that college sports is NOT a lucrative business is silly. I’m not inferring that you believe that either.

But the NCAA seems to feel that it can just get by on scholarships and potential earnings. How many peple are gonna buy Kentucky, Duke, UNC, UCLA, Kansas or whatever other bigname school merchandise if they aren’t students there? They buy stuf because the teams are good and the players are good. Shit, I mean, at the least compensate the players for team merchandise sold!! Jerseys have numbers on them! People buy them because they represent a specific player!

"Madison Square Garden is the ultimate basketball stage. That's where I belong. That's where I live. That's the home of the New York Knicks." - Amar'e Stoudemire

by Chris Child's Fist on Jun 30, 2011 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

i am not doubting any of that

the main disagreement, it seems, is that I feel that a college education at a top flight university (which, when all is said and done is about equal to 80-100 g a year… considering they leave with no debt, and having everything taken care of) is adequate payment for their services. Not to mention the fact that they are accepted to said university, when if going on academic merit alone, which I doubt most of these guys would be able to do without basketball (something that should not be overlooked).

Plus, if the player is so good that they truly feel they should be getting mad papers, then they only have to suffer through one year of the hellish nightmare of being a god on a college campus, where they can basically live however they want.

all this talk about not being able to study, and not being able to take classes is bull to me. if you value education then you can do it. I dont think many of these athletes complain about their bullshit classes and the ones that do I would bet get taken care of.

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jul 1, 2011 9:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think you need to read more on this subject

Sure, the guys who make it in the pros and have solid careers don’t have any reason to complain, but the ~99% of athletes who don’t make it and have no other career opportunities after being used by their school’s athletic department while not being educated properly have a much more realistic view of the situation.

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jul 1, 2011 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

"not being educated properly"...

and whose fault is this?

if you value learning, you’ll get educated properly. perhaps these kids need more and better guidance, but they should not be enabled to delude themselves into thinking they have a shot at a multi-million dollar contract and easy living by being paid to go to college. what kind of favor are we doing them by distracting them from the reality that most of them will eventually have to get actual jobs and work for a living.

by bucketsncents on Jul 1, 2011 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

You think it is only on them?

How about how the sports agent world descends on these kids in their high school years? Think back to when you were 14-15-16 yrs old. If you had adults in your ear talkin about how you could make millions in the NBA and endorsements and people hanging onto you and offering you gifts… do you not think that distorts who you trust and affects your ‘guidance’? Everyone says they have your best interests in mind, but how often does that prove to be bullshit?!

College plays a role in educating these kids for their future. No, the agent stuff cannot be blamed on college so much, but when you turn around and make the connection of how much money the college makes from athletics? I mean wow. Education is one thing, but let’s not automatically assume that college really cares about many of its athletes. College is a cash cow.

"Madison Square Garden is the ultimate basketball stage. That's where I belong. That's where I live. That's the home of the New York Knicks." - Amar'e Stoudemire

by Chris Child's Fist on Jul 1, 2011 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

how about the kids that spend their life

working to get by in a crappy school with no athletic talent and no means to continue to college…

those kids are the ones that need the extra guidence.

I have no sympathy for students/parents/families that put education second the same way I have no sympathy for millionaires and billionaires unable to come to an agreement about how to split kabillions of dollars.

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jul 1, 2011 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

You dont have to have sympathy

But not every kid that gets a bigtime scholarship to school has the same agenda. You may call it putting education second… but there are plenty of kids who really need the money for their family. Its a cliched story, yes, and it’s not the majority by any means… but some kids agendas come from needing to support their family and having a fullride to school helps, but these families couldnt afford college without a full ride anyways so its essentially just like the kid is out of the house… nothing changes for the family.

It all goes to say that this issue, like almost everything else, is complicated. The system in place now survives, but there are huge cracks that loads of people fall through. and its more than just education and money.

"Madison Square Garden is the ultimate basketball stage. That's where I belong. That's where I live. That's the home of the New York Knicks." - Amar'e Stoudemire

by Chris Child's Fist on Jul 1, 2011 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

if a person really needs money

for their family, the goal of becoming an nba player is a very selfish way to help the situation.

Yes, you may very well be one of the top 15-20 people every year that gets that dream… but the vast majority of people that attempt to help their families by becoming nba players fail.

you think 4 years of getting paid will be enough? (And this is ignoring the whole economic quagmire of 4 year max admission into a league… or why their will be ravage fans pumping millions of bucks into a minor league NBA league where players end up making no money…)

You know who actually help their family? People that step up and get a fucking education and get a real fucking job. The ones that are able to do this by being somewhat skilled at basketball are the winners.

The people that tell the young athletes, that need to help their family, that the way to do that is to become an NBA player is selling fools gold. The people that tell the young athletes, taht need to help their family, that the way to do that is by getting an education and having a career are selling a real life.

The solution to the corruption of college basketball isnt to replace the one thing that is good about the situation. That it is putting tons of kids though college.

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jul 5, 2011 7:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

keep fighting the good fight g...

i’m in full agreement. there’s so much more to the issue than the $$. young peoples development and futures are at stake.

by bucketsncents on Jul 6, 2011 8:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

Selfish?

I’m not talkin about dudes just DECIDING to play.

I’m talkin about talented players who hone those talents and decide to go pro early. Of course its a job. A professional athelte is exactly a career as anythign else in this world. It’s fools gold as you say maybe in terms of those capable of making it… but shit, what do you consider “making it” in the “real world”?!?

No one is advocating tell this kids to ignore their classes and piss on college education. We are saying recognize the extra value that these student athletes bring to their respective universities and consider rewarding them at least a little bit. Don’t turn the guys into millionaires in college… but a tiny piece of the pie is more than reasonable. Especially given that many athletes on full rides DO come from families who wouldn;t be able to afford sending them to their schools without that full ride.

"Madison Square Garden is the ultimate basketball stage. That's where I belong. That's where I live. That's the home of the New York Knicks." - Amar'e Stoudemire

by Chris Child's Fist on Jul 6, 2011 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Further

when did it become such a fantasy or delusion to aim to become a professional world class athlete??!! What makes you think that is not a legit career choice?!

The NBA isnt the only place for these players either. But getting a contract in the NBA recoupes more money far more quickly than waiting to graduate college and work up the ladder of a new job. Not saying it is the ONLY option… but it’s like you are shitting on kids that choose sports instead of the typical job path. If these kids are that good, hell yeah they ought to chase a dream!

"Madison Square Garden is the ultimate basketball stage. That's where I belong. That's where I live. That's the home of the New York Knicks." - Amar'e Stoudemire

by Chris Child's Fist on Jul 6, 2011 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think his point is that it's more improbable than impossible.

Especially in the scenario where the kid comes from a poor background and wants to get paid with the quickness for whatever reason, valid or not, it’s a HELLUVA tiny basket to be putting all your eggs in. There are only 450 NBA players in the world. Unless your goal from the start was to be the star of CKSA, if you grew up in the States it was NBA or bust. The only person I could think of who might possible have dreamed of being Maccabi Tel Aviv’s Michael Jordan was uh, Seth Rosenthal.

But anyway, yeah. To wrap it up:

Seth For President.

by GAx on Jul 6, 2011 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

i just can't get behind...

any more carrots to entice young people away from preparation and options and towards fools gold and “all you need is a dollar and a dream”.

by bucketsncents on Jul 6, 2011 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

i work in a high school...

and the breadth of delusion is terrifying. kids with no skill whatsoever having their academic work ethic completely destroyed because of this “dream”. society feeds these kids so much false “get rich quick” hope that we’re preventing them from any kind of success… and this isn’t an exaggeration. look, i understand your sentiment about wanting to give them some piece of the institutions earning and i hear that you’re not wanting to break the bank for the student athlete… it’s just that what i see everyday in inner-city schools shows me how even the smallest gesture of “fools gold” can destroy a kids perspective.

by bucketsncents on Jul 6, 2011 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is a problem in any field, not just pro sports

And not only the pursuit of riches/fame, but also the bad med student wanting to be a successful doctor, the unemployed PhD with a meh thesis looking for work at the top of academia, etc. etc.

It really has no bearing on the issue at hand, where athletes who ARE the best at what they do are not fairly compensated compared to the revenue their labor generates.

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jul 6, 2011 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

there are 450 docters and lawyers per city in america

even the slighly less then good ones can get a career out of it, and when you make it 3/4 of the way to becoming a doctor, and you dont make it… there are plenty of other options out there for you… when you make it 3/4 of the way to an nba player, there is not alot you can do.

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jul 6, 2011 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

and that is a problem in...

many of the most honorable, emotionally and physically taxing fields as well… individuals not being fairly compensated for the revenue their labor generates (ie. teachers, factory workers etc.)…

the only difference here is that many argue with such passion that student/athletes are at the top of the “unfairly” compensated list… when they should be way way down the line… and that giving them a portion of the revenue they’re generating is their “right”, though not necessarily good for them.

by bucketsncents on Jul 6, 2011 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Economically, they're probably at the top of the list

A top college program generates hundreds of millions of dollars in annual revenue. The NCAA tourney, bowl games, conference tournaments, etc. generate hundreds of millons themselves.

Top athletes get scholarships valued at a maximum of 50k/yr. Their scholarships also dictate they must devote a large amount of time to practices, road trips, study halls, and “tutoring” while being completely excluded from camups life. They are given $0 in actual cash, or else it’s a violation.

And yes, let’s look at this in strictly economic terms. In the post-slavery era, not many industries take financial advantage of their laborers like the NCAA does.

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jul 6, 2011 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

all true...

each stakeholder is to blame… agents and institutions alike… but paying a teenager because they are a commodity only emboldens their delusion that they are only commodities, and not students… whether or not the institution sees them as such.

if we really want to do right by these kids that are making the institution money… don’t pay them… hold them accountable when they don’t go to class or take their own tests.

sure this is “idealistic”, but paying them is just wrong on so many levels.

by bucketsncents on Jul 1, 2011 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

You're making broad assumptions here

namely, that a college education is beneficial to anybody, and that no amateur athlete is doomed to fail because they all have personal responsibilities and are just perfect little Nietzschean supermen.

Fuck that mentality. They’re sold the world by manipulative recruiters and, once secured, given the dirt on the bottom of the NCAA’s shoe. And I can’t repeat this enough – at major athletic schools, education is viewed as a hindrance and a formality, and every step is taken to ensure that the athlete is not burdened with an education whether he/she likes it or not.

To answer your original question, it’s largely your fault for supporting this crooked institution with your dollars and time.

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jul 1, 2011 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

just so i understand...

what’s your reason that student athletes should be paid on top of their scholarship? just to take a little money out of the pockets of institutions who are making money? how is this good for the student?

by bucketsncents on Jul 1, 2011 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not totally behind a pay plan but it's worth pointing out

many student athletes don’t have the money to eat, which is why you see players busted for selling memorabilia and the bowl game rings you’d think they’d want to treasure.

The schools, even the crooked ones, pay their athletes with perks – cars, jewelry, etc. – that is controlled by them and the boosters, and can be yanked away should their little soldiers step out of line. The college athlete has no financial freedom and is solely dependent. Great “life lessons” there.

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jul 1, 2011 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

take out a fucking student loan then...

like the rest of us… and get a job to pay it back.

by bucketsncents on Jul 1, 2011 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

they're on full scholarships

That’s the point, the scholarship is structured to cover educational expenses, but to then leave the athlete dependent on crooked boosters to eat anything but Ramen noodles.

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jul 1, 2011 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

i took out a loan...

and lived on ramen noodles. again… point? do these student athletes also need thrones to take exams in? shit… why are they in need of such babying, or extravagancies?

by bucketsncents on Jul 1, 2011 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

dude, so did I

but many athletes coming from poor backgrounds have literally zero financial backing from parents, and unlike most students they don’t have the time to get a job… unless it’s a fake job for a booster looking to control them.

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jul 1, 2011 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

idk, what do NCAA millionaire beneficiaries need it for?

let’s question everyone’s every move equally, here

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jul 1, 2011 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Damn Bucket!

Life is not that simple for everyone. It really isn’t.

But for the record, many non-athletic students have taken out loans. The big business of student loans is a long topic.

Degrees, no jobs and student loans is yet another.

by Willo on Jul 1, 2011 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

you misinterpreted...

just pointing out that every student is struggling in today’s climate… and if we’re talking about paying student athletes so they can live more “comfortably” just because they’re in the public eye, than this is not reality, nor is it fair or necessary. most students don’t have extra spending cash for the fun stuff.

by bucketsncents on Jul 1, 2011 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

I stand corrected and agree.

I had a nephew in a top cooking school who had to leave because his family with mine was not enough to keep him there.

He had settle for a good school over a great one.

by Willo on Jul 1, 2011 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

must have been a very tough decision...

and it’s unfortunate that education isn’t more accessible to all demographics. and it’s a shame that student athletes are treated both as kings (or queens) AND as babies… we all have burdens to bear… theirs are no more, or less, than anyone elses…

by bucketsncents on Jul 1, 2011 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Financially it was an easy call

but yes it was tough. The way I see it is he wasn’t denied a good education. We just couldn’t afford the great one. Honestly, I feel the only thing lost was bragging rights. The total experience has him better prepared in my opinion.

by Willo on Jul 1, 2011 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

I stand corrected and agree.

I stand corrected and agree.

I had a nephew in a top cooking school who had to leave because his family with mine was not enough to keep him there.

He had settle for a good school over a great one.

by Willo on Jul 1, 2011 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, you shouldn't ignore what thos athletes bring to the school!

It’s nto about “living comfortably” its about askign whether or not the system is ‘fair’ or not!!

Many of these athletes are the FACE of their schools. That’s advertsing. Yes many get the benefit of Full Scholarships, which I am not just brushing aside.

My point is, there is a TON of cash funneled on behalf these athletes (of all sports) and they don’t see a DIME of it. Even if it is their likeness that people are desiring to buy. Something IS wrong with that. And plenty of the non-star athletes need money to actually live. esepcailly ones on partial scholarships and whatnot. Fact of the matter is a significant amount of student athletes do come from households who cannot afford to help them at all with college expenses. And these athletes are not allowed to get jobs to help themselves!

"Madison Square Garden is the ultimate basketball stage. That's where I belong. That's where I live. That's the home of the New York Knicks." - Amar'e Stoudemire

by Chris Child's Fist on Jul 1, 2011 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

And I'm not talking about lining their pockets with gold

I’m talking about just SOMETHING. Enough to compensate them like if they had a part-time job or something. Dude, these sports bring in $$ by the 10s, even $100 Million!!

"Madison Square Garden is the ultimate basketball stage. That's where I belong. That's where I live. That's the home of the New York Knicks." - Amar'e Stoudemire

by Chris Child's Fist on Jul 1, 2011 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

i get what you're saying...

i think. but i still don’t see the connection. sure they bring money in to the school, but i don’t see how this entitles them to it. they’re doing what they went to school to do… play a sport and get an education (at least in theory). if in addition they’re being asked to designate extra time for promotional purposes… than i can see them being compensated for that time beyond what they signed up for… maybe on a fee for service scale. but if we’re just talking about getting them some of the pot that the school is making because the school is making so much… than no… that is dangerous for the development of the young men or women.

by bucketsncents on Jul 1, 2011 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

If you gave free room and board to a broke Charlie Sheen and then sold tickets for a line going by his bedroom window for people to peer into at night, should he get any money?

A place to stay rent-free with free food is very valuable.

An incomplete analogy, of course, but at its kernel: if I’m making money off of who you are and what you do, should you get a slice of that pie?

by GAx on Jul 1, 2011 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

isn't it like...

taking a job for an agreed upon salary, and than all the sudden the company starts making a lot more money… does this mean you SHOULD get a percentage? sure, you’d want it, but the job responsibilities you signed up for haven’t changed. wanting and deserving are very different things.

by bucketsncents on Jul 1, 2011 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

sure it is similar to a job salary

However job salaries increase as business increases. Be it raises, or bonuses or whatever… as the business skyrockets, ‘employees’ who have aided in that success do get extra compensation.

"Madison Square Garden is the ultimate basketball stage. That's where I belong. That's where I live. That's the home of the New York Knicks." - Amar'e Stoudemire

by Chris Child's Fist on Jul 1, 2011 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

In your Charlie Sheen example

what if Sheen found out you made $10 Million from the sale of thsoe tickets.

Do you think he would be satisfied with “room and board” given that the cost of that is miniscule compared to the profit HE brought to you??!

"Madison Square Garden is the ultimate basketball stage. That's where I belong. That's where I live. That's the home of the New York Knicks." - Amar'e Stoudemire

by Chris Child's Fist on Jul 1, 2011 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sorry GAx, that wouldn't be the case at all

As business profit increase, the “talent” looks for a bigger piece of the pie as well. Think of it like a TV show. As it becomes more popular and generates more revenue, the stars look for a pay increase. And they should. They create the popularity. They are the show. It happens everywhere and it should. The stars of Seinfeld started off making a fraction of what they ended up making by the time the show ended. And they should have. That show produced incredible profits for NBC.
So if college players are the talent and are the reason for rising profits, at some point, it may not be enough to “just” give them “education.” Not saying it should be Seinfeld money at all, but SOMETHING.

"Madison Square Garden is the ultimate basketball stage. That's where I belong. That's where I live. That's the home of the New York Knicks." - Amar'e Stoudemire

by Chris Child's Fist on Jul 2, 2011 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dude. We're on the same side.

When I said Yes, I was agreeing with the point in your post. Because it is also my point. College players should at the very least be less financially restricted.

by GAx on Jul 2, 2011 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

lol, I'm getting confused as this gets thinner!

Bahhhhhhh

"Madison Square Garden is the ultimate basketball stage. That's where I belong. That's where I live. That's the home of the New York Knicks." - Amar'e Stoudemire

by Chris Child's Fist on Jul 5, 2011 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

i call bullshit

i would love to see proof that college athletes that are on scholarships dont have meal plans and are not fed.

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jul 1, 2011 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Just look at the recent USC and Ohio State scandals

quotes aplenty from players and coaches saying the players aren’t given enough to eat. I’m sure it differs from school to school but many low-end meal plans don’t come close to covering a human’s needs

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jul 3, 2011 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

and of course...

their not playing the “sympathy card” to minimize the negative publicity they’re getting.

by bucketsncents on Jul 4, 2011 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

yes

a college education is beneficial to everybody. hands down, 100%, absolutely, indisputably true

many many many amateur athletes are doomed to fail. Just like many many many non athletes are doomed to fail.


at major athletic schools, education is viewed as a hindrance and a formality, and every step is taken to ensure that the athlete is not burdened with an education whether he/she likes it or not.

that is the problem, and the solution is not paying the students… that will only worsen the problem by completely removing education.

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jul 1, 2011 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

this is a product of the parents

and the students.

the answer is not to dumb them down by making them professionals with a maximum career life of 4 years.

THAT is putting the students future 2nd to financial concerns.

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jul 1, 2011 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

The whole "parents need to play a role in education" tautology ends up in mindless circle jerking

In an ideal world that would always be the case, but they’re far from the only enablers here.

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jul 1, 2011 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

but worsening the situation

is the absolute wrong answer.

the second these kids start ot get paid, they lose all semblance of being amateurs and we no longer have college basketbal. we have 2 professional leagues, one where teenages are exploited for monetary gain.

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jul 1, 2011 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Any pay system for college athletes would have to be completely equitable

I’m just pointing out the problems with the current system, though. In an ideal world, college and big-money athletics would likely be completely separated from an institutional standpoint

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jul 1, 2011 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

so your issue is with college sports

you would rather do away with it and have our system by like europe? Where kids become professional athletes at age 14 and such?

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jul 1, 2011 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think the D-League will ideally expand

to:
1) sign HS graduates at competitive salaries, giving them a year or so of experience before entering the NBA
2) develop youth academies, giving the young athlete the option to play professionally instead of in high school – but not at the expense of education. (young Euro professionals still finish their schooling, usually)

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jul 1, 2011 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

interesting ideas...

though my reflex say basketball factories might result in an army of uneducated inner city youth… even more so than what we have now.

by bucketsncents on Jul 1, 2011 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

right?

the answer here is not to remove education from people that need it most

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jul 1, 2011 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

You sound more than a little jaded

along cultural lines, I guess… you have a lot of harsh words for the young, generally black athlete.

Read my post again though. I’m not advocating removing education.

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jul 1, 2011 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

this statement
The legitimate arm of a major institution is being twisted in order to be re-branded as "compensation" to athletes incapable of passing through otherwise, just so NCAA fatcats don’t have to share their billions with the kids doing their labor for them.

that you made is the most harsh and insulting thing said about the young, generally black athlete on this page… by far.

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jul 1, 2011 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Applying that statement to ALL athletes

is harsh and insulting on your part.

Are you meaning to imply that 100% of major college athletes can be admitted to their colleges via normal admissions processes? I’m saying that some can, but most can’t – this is not exactly a secret.

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jul 1, 2011 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

jaded...

is the claim that people who come from less are less than equally capable of working, earning, learning and enduring until they make the life they want. any disadvantaged person or a person from a non-dominant demographic has inherent obstacles that others don’t… but to continuously lower standards and band-aid discomfort is the most oppressive, “jaded” decision we can make.

by bucketsncents on Jul 1, 2011 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Those obstacles DO hinder capability

That’s a discussion for another day, but the point is the NCAA in its current form acts as another obstacle to success (unless you’re a can’t-miss pro prospect), rather than a bridge to success and prosperity.

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jul 1, 2011 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

sorry for repeating "success"

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jul 1, 2011 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

might just be a semantic thing...

but no, the capability is there… the path they have to walk might just be more challenging. at least i hope it’s just a semantic thing ’cause if not… well, that says something very different about your position.

by bucketsncents on Jul 1, 2011 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

People are basically products of their environment

You have a really naive way of looking at this. No, environmental factors don’t influence someone’s innate capabilities. Yes, they do influence whether that person’s potential is reached or not.

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jul 2, 2011 7:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

improve your comprehension please...

that is what i said. stop trying just to disagree.

by bucketsncents on Jul 2, 2011 11:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

We're not saying the same thing

You’re saying someone should be able to reach their goals regardless of the situation at home, by a sheer act of volition. That’s a fairy tale.

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jul 3, 2011 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

and you're saying they can't?...

you’re saying a persons circumstances make it impossible for someone to reach their goals… unless of course they’re pitied enough by people in power to have expectations lowered for them?

it’s no fairy tale. i see it every day at work. young people born into challenging, if not awful circumstances… and the worst thing we can do for them is teach them to use their lives as excuses. what they need is guidance, validation and support… not pity and allowances.

by bucketsncents on Jul 4, 2011 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

i think we all agree...

that everyone is to blame. where we’re differing is how to manage the corrupt system that exists. it’s my opinion that making it easier and more comfortable for the athlete/students IS NOT the answer.

by bucketsncents on Jul 1, 2011 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

No. The system is to blame. Shit is institutionalized.

I don’t worry about student athletes gaming the system, I worry about the system gaming the student athletes.

by Doug Chu on Jul 1, 2011 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

just because the institutions are...

profiting, doesn’t mean the student athletes are caught up in a child trafficking ring. i just don’t agree with the pity party people throw for the student athletes. they’ve chosen and aren’t doing poorly… in fact, they’re doing quite well.

by bucketsncents on Jul 1, 2011 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

The stars are... as long as they keep making it.

And as long as they don’t get injured.

"Madison Square Garden is the ultimate basketball stage. That's where I belong. That's where I live. That's the home of the New York Knicks." - Amar'e Stoudemire

by Chris Child's Fist on Jul 2, 2011 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

My problem with the whole issue is two things

1. The NBA should create a legitimate minor league where guys like John Wall, Kyrie Irving etc. could have just been drafted out of high school paid signing bonus like in Baseball and work on their craft, instead of taking up a scholarship slot while pretending to be students for half a year.
2. The NCAA should decide whether they are about intercollegiate athletics or if they are a business. If they are about “student Athletes” then they should encourage the NBA to provide a avenue for players who only want to play ball and not go to college. If they are a business then pay the damn players, and compete with the NBA on the open Market for talent.

I think it is silly that the NBA and the NCAA have this unholy alliance. David Stern has constantly talked about protecting the integrity of the college game and the collegiate product. Please college basketball fans truly root for laundry. Let North Carolina play Kansas and the game will be sold out regardless of where it is played and the ratings will be high on television, regardless of who happens to be wearing the uniforms of either team. Secondly baseball proves this system works. Every year there are high school kids who turn down MLB money to go to school, because the really want to go. The kids who do not want to go take the MLB dollars and go play minor league ball. The fact that some of the top prospects in baseball choose not to go to college has not seem to hurt the product on the field at all.

by Robert Curre on Jul 1, 2011 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think the NBA

needs to turn the D-league into a bona-fide farm system and and true developmental league, not a welfare system for NBA washouts. If you’re 18 and you want to get paid and play but aren’t yet ready for the show, the d-league should be a more viable (and better-paying) and less stigmatized option than it is now. And the people who want a real education could and would still play NCAA ball.

by flossy on Jun 30, 2011 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

i would partailly agree to this

it would be much like baseball.

the downside is, many players will forgo the NCAA system to get paid, and they wont like that.

The downside is, for all those kids that dont make it… they leave with nothing. As opposed to the current system, where at least they have a degree. (like baseball… where players get MUCH less then basketball).

The fun part is they would have to expand the draft (prob not as big as baseball, but still… FUN!)

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jun 30, 2011 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

It works out in the end.

I mean jesus, some of the college coaches RAKE. Compare those to other teachers at those schools and it’s not even remotely close.

But like in baseball.. they would eventually hold a draft and players decide whether or not to forgo college for the NBA Minors or even pass on their draft selection and try again the next year or something.

Bottom line is NCAA would survive. The quality might lessen because of the would-be stars going to the pros… but look at NCAA baseball now… it’s generates money just fine.

"Madison Square Garden is the ultimate basketball stage. That's where I belong. That's where I live. That's the home of the New York Knicks." - Amar'e Stoudemire

by Chris Child's Fist on Jun 30, 2011 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

compaired to NCAA Basketball

its not.

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jun 30, 2011 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

well no, but that is just how it would have to be.

sure the NCAA wouldn’t like to see such a drop-off… but then again, they aren’t very interested in changing their system either.

"Madison Square Garden is the ultimate basketball stage. That's where I belong. That's where I live. That's the home of the New York Knicks." - Amar'e Stoudemire

by Chris Child's Fist on Jun 30, 2011 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Why should the NCAA care about people who do not want

to go to college. The NCAA is about college students supposedly. So high school students who happen to be good basketball players but are not interested in going to college have nothing to do with the NCAA.

by Robert Curre on Jul 1, 2011 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Its just like baseball as you said earlier

I agree with that and was trying to make the same connection.

"Madison Square Garden is the ultimate basketball stage. That's where I belong. That's where I live. That's the home of the New York Knicks." - Amar'e Stoudemire

by Chris Child's Fist on Jul 1, 2011 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Why the hell does what started out as an extra-curricular

activity and a way for students to get some exercise need to be a money making venture. That is precisely my point. NCAA Basketball at the Division one level is a business and therefore should be treated as such. The NCAA is running a competitive business to the NBA and should be required to compete on even terms. College athletics do not have to make money and should not be required to. Division 3 schools do not offer scholarships nor have television deals, yet those entities offer intercollegiate athletics and do not seem the worse for wear. Division I NCAA Athletics is a 32 Billion dollar enterprise that has little or nothing to do with the expressed purposes of its member institutions.

It is wrong for Terrell Pryor to trade his Jersey for a tattoo valued at $350, but it is not wrong for Ohio State to sell 1000s of replicas of his Jersey for $150 a pop. it was wrong for the kid to use his affiliation as the starting quarterback at one of the top college football programs to buy a car at a reduced price. That is correct he was not given a car but still had to pay for it, but it is okay for Ohio State University to clear 15 million dollars largely off of his exploits on the football field.

I am sorry but if Ohio State is allowed to make all of that money off of Pryor’s talent shouldn’t he be allowed to use that same talent to get a tattoo and a discount on a car? It is because the NCAA says no that’s wrong that I say Pay Pryor a salary commensurate to the revenue the school is bringing in off of his talent and that way his can pay for his tattoos and pay full price for his own damn car.

by Robert Curre on Jul 6, 2011 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

you know what?...

i can live with this… if someone other than the institution, who is in no way affiliated with the institution (no boosters, alumni etc… yeah, this is where it gets sticky) wants to pay a student athlete or give them some benefit, at their own risk to their own name or company… fine… capitalism at it’s best/worst. as long as it’s not the institution. the lines between student and professional should not be blurred. i just wish the companies rewarding the student/athletes would demand at least a “C” average.

by bucketsncents on Jul 6, 2011 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

i wonder if regular folk...

would like the opportunity to have their full tuition, fees and living expenses paid to go to college. it’s very much like getting paid.

by bucketsncents on Jun 30, 2011 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

excuses

plenty of players leave college with a degree they earned.

its on them to learn… if they are guided towards easy majors and they take it and dont look back that is on them.

Landry played hard for 4 years and earned a degree and studied… If a player puts his education at no priority, that is on them and prob would have happened if they played bball or not.

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jun 30, 2011 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

But they won't be a lottery pick because they have Mad upside

Landry earned a degree because as a Freshman he was not good enough to make the NBA. Had Landry been good enough his freshman year at Stanford to be a top 10 pick then he probably leaves Stanford. Greg Oden is a bust and spent basically half a semester attending classes at Ohio State. And if he never plays another minute in the NBA he has already made more money than the average person with a PHD will make in an entire lifetime. So I am sure if Oden wants a degree with the 38 million he has made, He could buy his own building at the college or university of his choice.

by Robert Curre on Jun 30, 2011 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

you answered yourself there

if they are leaving early because they are a 1st round pick, then they have no complaints. They have more then enough money to get started in life and can use that rookie contract to finish school and get their life in order.

if they are banking on being a 1st round pick, ignore classes then fall in the draft to the 2nd round then that is on them.

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jun 30, 2011 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

I would agrue also that on of the main benefits of going to college

is putting yourself in position to start a fruitful career.

So if you can earn a multi-million dollar salary playing basketball or another sport…. well, kudos to you. It’s very much comparable to other ‘degrees’ too. Any professional athlete works their ass off to stay on top of their game. It’s no different than any other trade. The payscale is just a higher level.

"Madison Square Garden is the ultimate basketball stage. That's where I belong. That's where I live. That's the home of the New York Knicks." - Amar'e Stoudemire

by Chris Child's Fist on Jun 30, 2011 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

They aren't given the opportunity to learn

There are stories upon stories of athletes arriving at college only to see a schedule of easy classes drawn up from them, and “tutors” employed by the athletic department ready to “help” with homework and exams. At major programs, education is a formality and any athlete truly wishing to partake like a normal student had better find a new school.

The athletes are recruited as teenagers and turned into pawns; what the fuck do you expect from them?

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jun 30, 2011 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

No question these kids are getting exploited

They should get more equitable compensation. A degree is enough in many cases but the better players should get more.

by YuckFou on Jun 30, 2011 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

let's not go overboard...

‘cause i don’t see many of them complaining. pretty much everything is free… they’ve probably got lots of parties to attend and co-eds to “exploit”… they’re treated as hero’s on campus… pretty much everything they’ve been wanting since they watched MJ dunk from the baseline when they were l’il kids.

just another example of justifying a “more more more” attitude.

by bucketsncents on Jun 30, 2011 8:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

The only fair solution is to let the market prevail

The winners would be big market big name schools but who cares? Certainly not me. Let the kids learn the capitalist system first hand in an above board way. The current system is an absolute rip off of these student athletes and in many ways mirrors what the league is trying to do in terms of competition equality and limiting player salaries..

by YuckFou on Jun 30, 2011 8:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

then they can go overseas

you start paying college students then there is no more college ball. they are pro players and its another professional league.

if you pay them, just shut it down and start a league.

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jul 1, 2011 1:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

It already is another pro league

with a salary cap equal to the price of an education at the particular institution that offers the scholarship. I don’t see how paying the players changes anything but the fairness of the system. You seem irate that players might be compensated for their efforts.

by YuckFou on Jul 1, 2011 3:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

I am irate that education

has been devalued to the point that its not considered compensation.

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jul 1, 2011 9:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think it's that at most schools the education is barely emphasized as a focal point of their stay at the school. If at all.

Sure it’s a valuable asset they’re being given free access too, but except for a few, I’d say most schools actually actively discourage their high-profile athletes(which is who we’re really talking about, right? We’re not talking about the NCAA Chris Dudley who’s moving on to be a chemical engineer for Exxon after his 4 years) from focusing on their studies if it’ll hurt their sport.

That’s partly why I was excited to hear Iman say it was tough to juggle academia and the team. He already seems to have his head screwed on straight, and I like the fact that he seemed to value that education bit, too.

by GAx on Jul 1, 2011 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

How do you know this?
I think it’s that at most schools the education is barely emphasized.

And then you give two examples of kids who got great educations. So why make this insulting statement?

by YuckFou on Jul 1, 2011 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

I wasn't trying to insult anyone with that. I'm not even really sure who I'd be insulting with that line, but apologize if I did.

I was basing that statement off something I’d read(the link would’ve really come in handy right now) about the low standards the schools themselves set for their athletes. Excuse me as I’m typing through the haze right now and my recollection might be off, but something as eye-popping as like a C average in two classes for the first semester, and then didn’t even have to attend a class really in the second. All this while “tutors” help you with your schoolwork.

I’m obviously not talking about a Battier from Duke or a Landry from Stanford. And Dudley went to friggin Yale! And he kinda sucked! I’m sure that played a part in him staying all 4 years while getting that poli sci major. Okay that was a little gratuitous cuz my man double-majored in economics as well, but the point is he was a perfect example of what we weren’t talking about. Which is why I used him as one above and finding myself doing again right now!

So in sum, fuck Earl Barron.

by GAx on Jul 2, 2011 4:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

I've always believed college players should be paid

but I can get behind a scholarship equals compensation IF the institution hasn’t devalued education by drawing up easy classes for players.

Unfortunately, a really good player does so much for the athletic dept and the school that you can’t let a little thing like a real education ruin it all. This is the sad truth.

by Willo on Jul 1, 2011 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

the answer though isnt to further the problem

by turning students into faculty

its fixing that standard.

and the student has to have responsibility here. Many, many college ballers leave with a good education (or go back and get it if they are actually good enough to leave early).

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jul 1, 2011 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

This problem is not new but has only gotten worse over the years.

Why because morals and integrity would have to outweigh the money.

I don’t want to oversimplify the problem or the solution but as a parent, I have never been in the position of having friends, neighbors, scouts and professionals tell me my son is a great player with NBA potential.

Had that been the case, I can only imagine the battles to convince him that college was priority one.

by Willo on Jul 1, 2011 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

so the answer to
morals and integrity would have to outweigh the money.

is to add more money to the situation and remove the last bit of integrity?

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jul 1, 2011 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

No it is a dilemma, but we're not adding more money

to the situation. Rather dividing it more equally. I had to smile typing that because finding an honest solution in the midst of a corrupt system is mind-boggling.

Look, how athletes are exploited in college has been a complaint for over 30 years that I know about. In that time the rules on the surface have gotten tougher but the reality is savvy people get by this easily. Those that need it take it.

The problem begins when a kid graduates from a HS basketball factory and is awarded a scholarship to play basketball at a top college.

  

by Willo on Jul 1, 2011 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's a twisted way of looking at this

Here’s the problem: The legitimate arm of a major institution is being twisted in order to be re-branded as “compensation” to athletes incapable of passing through otherwise, just so NCAA fatcats don’t have to share their billions with the kids doing their labor for them.

Athletes get hurt, professors and academic departments get hurt, the NCAA falls ass-backwards into money.

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jul 1, 2011 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

"incapable of passing through otherwise"...

might be the most oppressive, belittling phrase i’ve seen yet… as if to imply that athletes, black, white, wealthy or poor, aren’t capable of learning and developing competency and work ethic. where is the personal responsibility in all of this?

and this isn’t me defending institutions, because they sure as shit enable and embolden a culture of entitlement and selfishness… but…

teenagers choose their goals… and some have the goal of making it to the NBA… but it should never be because a lack of faith in their options or abilities to do something other than jump high or dunk basketballs. yes, many come from low income backgrounds and athletics might be one of the few ways to get a higher education… but once there, the opportunities are endless… what they do with those opportunities is up to them.

by bucketsncents on Jul 1, 2011 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

Schools lower their academic standards considerably for athletes

Yes, some athletes are capable and would pass through with flying colors. Many aren’t, though, and everyone admits this including the athletes themselves. They wouldn’t be there, and they wouldn’t be passing classes, if they weren’t making $$$ for the top 25 basketball team that happens to play on campus.

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jul 1, 2011 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

not sure what your point is?

is it that low standards and rewarding athletic ability with money is a good idea?

by bucketsncents on Jul 1, 2011 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

rewarding athletic ability with money

or rather, “rewarding profitability with money.” which is the norm for ideally everyone except apparently young athletes, who must be subjected to labor for some bizarre money-making scheme for billionaires.

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jul 1, 2011 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

because an institution makes money...

because of their student athletes has absolutely nothing to do with what is best for the student… and it’s important to emphasize the word “student”… because it implies something entirely different than “employee”. the student CHOSE to play ball… the student CHOSE to enter into a situation where they were going to need to multi-task… and the student CHOSE to do so understanding that they would be compensated for their efforts with the opportunities to both get an education and advance their craft for possible FUTURE employment. the institutions profits have no bearing on the issue whatsoever… the students responsibilities while in school never change… some people just think the profits should be shared… while others think the students need to use their time in school (like all of us did) to grow into responsible adults prepared to exist in a society that expects work ethic and marketable and versatile skills.

by bucketsncents on Jul 1, 2011 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

How many 17 and 18 year olds

enter school fully informed and aware of how to CHOOSE the right decision for themselves.

by Doug Chu on Jul 1, 2011 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Couldn't agree less
the institutions profits have no bearing on the issue whatsoever…

While it is true that the students choose voluntarily to play by the rules what other choice do they have? The deck is stacked by a hypocritical set of presumptuous outdated ideals that cheat these kids. I don’t know if colleges should be in the business of big time sports? I personally think it is fun and would hope it continues. But to me the way to do it is by allowing a monetary aspect and putting it out into the open. Let the market prevail.

by YuckFou on Jul 1, 2011 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

again...

i don’t get how they’re getting “cheated”. just because they’re not profiting on top of what they knowingly signed up for?

and again, i’m not defending the institutions, because they are corrupt, decietful and manipulative… but this truth doesn’t change the fact that paying students is a bad idea.

by bucketsncents on Jul 1, 2011 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

just because you think the compensation is adequate

does not mean it is. It should be between the individual player and school to determin what if anything to pay a player. That’s the old fashioned American capitalist system. All the talk about amateurism and the value of education is pure meaningless bullshit.

by YuckFou on Jul 1, 2011 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

and just because...

the student athletes feel it’s inadequate doesn’t mean it is. i have no problem with creating alternatives for kids who want to bypass a higher education (although, i do think that’s a slippery slope)… but paying them extra in college blurs the lines too much and sends a real shitty message to everyone… and not just the student athletes… but to teachers, counselors, nurses, doctors, social workers, engineers etc. if they’re that determined… go the way of jeremy tyler and brandon jennings.

by bucketsncents on Jul 1, 2011 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's what could happen
if they’re that determined… go the way of jeremy tyler and brandon jennings.

and we will be worse off for it unless the NCAA and schools recognize the realities of the new world sports marketplace Of course if the education component is a sham then it opens up a whole other can of worms.

by YuckFou on Jul 1, 2011 10:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

How about this for an idea?

You give each of your scholarship players a negotiated percentage of the net receipts to be payed out upon graduation. If they screw up or flunk out they lose all or part of the money.

by YuckFou on Jul 1, 2011 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

sold...

i’m okay with student athletes being compensated… but only if they earn it. i just don’t see playing your sport as “earning it”. graduating on the other hand… that’s earning it. though i do still find it abominable that there are so many people advocating for student athletes to make more money… and like no one trying to figure out a way to get teachers paid more than what they do.

but as someone said up above… fuck earl barron.

by bucketsncents on Jul 2, 2011 9:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

i just don’t see playing your sport as "earning it".

Playing your sport well is no different than getting an A on your final exam. That’s the NCAA’s line, anyways.

You’re ignoring the fatal flaws in the system that allow it to work like everything else: skilled laborers get paid less than they generate for their millionaire bosses. The plight of the teacher is no different than the plight of the factory worker, or the office grunt worker, or the amateur athlete.

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jul 2, 2011 7:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

don't quite think it...

sensical to compare the plights of teachers or factory workers with those of amateur athletes. perhaps only in their own minds… but this seems to be peoples fatal flaws… lack of larger perspective.

by bucketsncents on Jul 2, 2011 11:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

And why not, exactly?

All three parties are compensated with a fraction of what their labor generates.

For someone who likes to rant against “entitlement,” you seem to be just fine with old white billionaires taking eight-figure bonuses for running companies into the ground, but how dare an amateur athlete make a living wage.

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jul 3, 2011 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

what are you running for office?

who is fine with white billionaires taking 8 figure bonuses? ‘cause it’s not me. how many times have i written that i’m not in support of the owners?…

again rooster with your cherry picking of sound bites. i’m very clear about both sides lacking perspective.

student athletes aren’t “labor” who contribute to the fabric of society. they are entertainers who have been provided a free education and the means to earn it…

if we’re going to reward or better compensate individuals for their contributions and efforts… i’m not comfortable putting amateur athletes on the front of that line… and i mean no disrespect to them or their hopes, dreams and hard work… i just mean to remind you to try to maintain your perspective around the larger social utility of the different parties.

by bucketsncents on Jul 4, 2011 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

student athletes aren’t "labor" who contribute to the fabric of society. they are entertainers

i just mean to remind you to try to maintain your perspective around the larger social utility of the different parties.

No, no, NO. I absolutely hate this argument.

Do you honestly think that entertainment doesn’t contribute to the fabric of society? Entertainment is often the only thing keeping society from collectively stopping abruptly and saying “fuck this.”

Economically, NCAA athletes are extremely valuable commodities.

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jul 5, 2011 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

perspective...

you’re right in that entertainment is an important element to the collective “mental health” of society… but in terms of allocation of resources, i hope you would agree that entertainers are disproportionately rewarded relative to their level of necessity. basketball players average salaries versus teachers or factory workers average salaries are, well, you know… and yeah, the length of careers differ, but this is why education of student athletes should be emphasized more… so they can get jobs if they need to when their playing days are over.

by bucketsncents on Jul 5, 2011 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well... disproportionate is dicey at best

I would agree that I believe things should be different in terms of who deserves to be paid what… but in the case of making money… popularity brings in more cash.

So, as we are talking about the money athletes generate, well, I find it difficult to argue against entertainment since it is exactly that which generates such massive amounts of cash.

And while I do agree about getting an education… well… playing a professional sport IS a job, technically.

"Madison Square Garden is the ultimate basketball stage. That's where I belong. That's where I live. That's the home of the New York Knicks." - Amar'e Stoudemire

by Chris Child's Fist on Jul 5, 2011 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

you're right, it is a job...

but it’s a job with a very short shelf life, which if anything, makes it even MORE important that education and learning be emphasized MORE than making some extra spending cash in school.

by bucketsncents on Jul 5, 2011 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

i hope you would agree that entertainers are disproportionately rewarded relative to their level of necessity.

Absolutely not. Especially at the amateur level.

There’s no metric for “level of necessity” but either way, comparing athletes to teachers or laborers is an exercise in futility.

If you actually believed in what you’re saying here, you’d be calling for athletes, teachers, laborers, and almost everybody else to make more money at the expense of Wall Street, the Pentagon, and select others – but this is really just a false equivalence you’ve resorted to in order to support your bizarre argument against amateur athletes receiving some of the money their labor generates.

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jul 5, 2011 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

you're a strange bird rooster...

with a seemingly stronger desire to search for crumbs to feed debate than to actually engage in a reasonable discussion where minds are open. not sure how you define “futile” but your claim that my position is an exercise in futility seems more of a cop out than anything else. and if you require a “metric” system to compare the level of necessity (or utility) of educators and athletes… well than i’m at a loss with you. and if you believe that wall street tycoons “deserve” the mountains of gold they swim in every day while other, more blue collar professionals struggle the ways they do… well than, i’m at a loss again.

and my position on the issue remains the same, paying student athletes is bad for both the student athletes, as well as for society. it devalues learning for the individual getting paid and sets them up to be underprepared for anything beyond a professional career in sports (which is very unlikely for most)… and it devalues the struggles of those students working and attending school. not sure what’s so “bizarre” about my argument… other than it’s different from your position… which seems to be…

“pay student athletes because they make the university money”

by bucketsncents on Jul 5, 2011 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

but

what about young lawyers interning for nothing with tons of hours.

or young doctors interning at hospitals doing crazy shifts

they all have loans to worry about too.

MOST young people have to work their asses off with no pay to prove their worth. Its how its done. Basketball is no different.

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jul 5, 2011 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

The issue is the implicit agreement an intern enters with Law Firm X and the college player has with University Y are different.

Maybe subtly different, but significant nonetheless. You KNOW as an intern you’ll be working your ass off for no pay, but you’re being paid through experience. This is supposedly equitable to everyone so it’s all good.

The top NCAA players(since that’s really who we’re talking about here) get recruited hard, and most aren’t trying to be there longer than necessary(ie – the “working experience” they’re getting in the college game isn’t a priority, waiting out the one year limit is). They could care less about that and are in it for the money from jump, and so is the NCAA, but the difference is at least the law firm isn’t wink-wink-nodding about the fact that they’re in it for the profit.

If the NCAA was honest about the disproportionate relationship it has with its top athletes, I suspect a lot of people’s beef with them would lessen considerably. Even so, I dont even follow college sports that closely and know what a farce it is to hide behind the “spirit of academia” like they are.

by GAx on Jul 5, 2011 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

but you are wrong

the top NCAA players are not all that this is about.

you take the college element out of college basketball and you have minor league baseball. You think that generates millions of dollars?

And you think there will be hundreds of teams? with one big awesome tourney in the end? Ya know… that thing that actually generates all that money?

Players like Jorts can kiss playing in the NBA goodbye.

Compare the top HS recruiting lists with the NBA draft… you think they are the same?

By attaching education to the nba dream, it gives a reason for adults to push their kids… they know that since 99.99% of the kids out there are not going to the nba, by doing this they may get to go to college and have something with their lives.

You take away the education aspect, and you take away the main reward of the hard work for so many players.

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jul 5, 2011 7:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

I wasn't trying to take the "college" out of Collegiate Athletics.

I was just attempting to create a tighter focus on my sliver of this wide-ranging discussion.

This started because of people saying with all these players bringing recognition, prestige and, more importantly, money to the schools, maybe a little summin summin should be kicked back. I’m saying at that point we’re not talking about the NCAA equivalent of Jerome James here. Those players are the ones who should be happy and appreciative of their educational opportunities their limited game got them. I’m happy for and slightly jealous of them.

I’m talking about the top players who all aspire to go to the NBA. They didn’t accept that scholarship because the school’s Pharmacy Dept kicks ass. They went because of School name, playing time, coaches’ recruiting, etc, and all with the idea of leaving as soon as possible. I’m not taking away the education aspect. They are. And in all honesty, there’s really nothing wrong with that. Why send an aspiring plumber to Harvard when an apprenticeship or two-year vocational would be more appropriate and ultimately helpful?

Having said that alllll that I’m not saying Derrick Wililams should have been making Calipari money. But ,it makes sense that if nothing else the severely limiting “amateur” rules regarding compensation should be greatly eased up. I mean what the fuck. If you won a trophy or award, it’s yours. It has your name on it. If you wanna barter that away to get a bitchin tattoo, that should be your perogative and right.

All this sound and fury might boil down to jack shit in my mind if it turns out the NCAA funnels most of that cash back to the schools and its other less popular sports programs, but then I hear about Rutgers spending more on their football team while cutting available classes and that sort of thing isn’t a first in the History of the World soooooo…

by GAx on Jul 6, 2011 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

i get what you mean

and there are def sound reasonings for giving the stars some kickback.

the issue is that there is no way it would be this happy situation where the top players make a little cash and everything works out with sunshine and lollipops. Agents will get involved, bidding wars for top HS players will become the norm… it wont be about the “School name, playing time, coaches’ recruiting, etc” It will be about the money, and that will cheapen what makes college ball special.

the number of players that leave after one year is minimal. the number of players that think they will leave after one year and then get a rude wake up call is much higher. putting money over the education of young men is a recipe for disaster.

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jul 6, 2011 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

Oh indeed. And I'm Korean. I'm genetically predisposed towards overvaluing education.

And I agree that Arn Tellem or Happy would find some way to fuck up the new CSU. HS basketball players calling press conferences to put on the school’s cap…except on advice of his agent he’s decided to tell the media he’s holding out for more cash.

BrrRrRRRrr. I could actually see that.

But the current “amateur status and all that” situation isn’t really making me want to skip through any fields but Landry right now. Maybe I’m biased because I’ve never actually been impressed by college ball compared to the NBA product and I don’t really have a rooting interest, but what’s so special about college ball? The veneer of integrity that the absence of the odor of agents lends it? The money’s there. It just ain’t trickling down. The best players leave after paying David Stern’s “Two College Semesters Tax” anyway.

And I’m not even gonna touch that “putting money before education is a disaster” because on a sociological level it already is a disaster and this blog is about the Knicks. And poop. I mean HOW THE FUCK IS RUTGERS CRYING POVERTY AND THEN PAYING SNOOKI THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS FOR A LECTURE?

by GAx on Jul 6, 2011 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

you take the college element out of college basketball and you have minor league baseball. You think that generates millions of dollars?

And you think there will be hundreds of teams? with one big awesome tourney in the end? Ya know… that thing that actually generates all that money?

Players like Jorts can kiss playing in the NBA goodbye.

Oh nooo, what will happen to our precious Jorts?

(he’ll still play in the NBA because, like he was at Kentucky, he’d be a good enough player to be noticed by scouts, only difference being his coach John Calipari wouldn’t have to vacate wins because there would’ve been no reason to commit violations.)

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jul 6, 2011 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

how many college ballers make it to the nba and succeed

5-10 a year? at the very most you can make a case that 60 players are drafted… so lets go with that as the highest possible number.

i found on the interwebs that there are 3823 div 1 college basketball players.

you are talking about 1.5% of the pool a year gets an opportunity to continue with basketball. (the numbers here are a little fishy… players stay for different amounts and whatnot.. but the overall gist is right).

if you were to make college ball a lesser professional league where they get paid, you are in effect taking away an opportunity at an education for the other 98.5%.

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jul 1, 2011 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Getting in is succeeding
how many college ballers make it to the nba and succeed
5-10 a year?

Figuring most of the 1st and a good chunk of the second round get contracts. In any case how does paying some of them take away opportunities from others?

by YuckFou on Jul 1, 2011 11:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

because it is making those others

less right from the start.

and yes, they get contracts… but one contract (even if it is for over a mil) will in no way last a lifetime. Its not like they just get that cash in their pockets, they pay their agents, taxes, etc…

what about a walk-on that ends up making it… is he paid like the star?

and how many star HS players fizzle out.. TONS. Do these guys sign contracts at the start of their college stay? And then do they get to just bounce whenever they want? How is that then fair to the school that is paying big money for them? the issue is they are no longer students, they are now employees of the institution.

And it would completely destroy mid-majors. Do you think they are going to be able to pay for players like a big money school will?

I will tell you what, I would be mroe for student atheletes getting paid if it meant they would be forced to stay 4 years… cause they would be on contracts.

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jul 5, 2011 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think having requirements that come along with any "bonus" money for college athletes is a great start.

It’s understandbly tricky at best to control the flow of money to players and still consider them “amateurs”, but I am one person who wishes more kids would stay in college longer. Of course there are superiorly skilled players every so often, but in my opinion, part of the skillset is the mental capacity to handle a professional sport.

I’m actually on board with David Stern’s desire to keep kids in college until at least the end of their sophmore year. I just think about how many guys labeled as “potential” coming into the league who end up getting swallowed up. And it seems to me that the guys who stick around in college longer tend to adjust quicker to the NBA life.

I doubt it would ever happen, but I would have little issue against some system where the players get a small kickback from revenue if they agree to stay 2-3yrs or something. Or maybe some sort of tiered system where the benefits increase the longer you stay in school. Again, it’s a very dicey thing because you are calling these players amateurs but if you are putting money in their pockets, well, that by definition kinda makes them professionals.

If the NBDL continues to develop into a viable minor league system, maybe the NCAA would consider making such a change… unfortunately, I don;t see it happening anytime soon if at all.

"Madison Square Garden is the ultimate basketball stage. That's where I belong. That's where I live. That's the home of the New York Knicks." - Amar'e Stoudemire

by Chris Child's Fist on Jul 5, 2011 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

it will never happen

because if you take college out of college basketball you lose all the money.

there are no alumni caring about the prestige of their school… there are not thousands of stupid drunk kids to cheer them on and fill up these arenas.

You think the athletes are the reason the money is there but its not just them. Yes, they are important… but without the school, their is nothing here worth talking about.

They can offer education as a form of payment, because it is a valuable form of payment, many times over hundreds of thousands of dollars over 4 years, a payment very few 18-22 year olds with high school educations can get.

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jul 5, 2011 7:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

What world do you inhabit?

You are full of idealism GBaked. The reality is if you look at the top college programs, very few of those kids, even the ones who stay 4 years actually graduate. Coaches and athletic directors are more concerned with keeping kids eligible rather than their educations. And really who can blame them. It is more important to win games than to have a large number of students graduate. In both basketball and football we have seen coaches with high graduation rates but low winning percentages get fired. You would be shocked to know that even at Duke only 45% of coach K’s players meet the criteria for graduation at the end of their 4 years of eligibility and he is one of the better ones.

Secondly given the fact that colleges and Universities artificially inflate the cost of their tuitions a players compensation as you put it is arbitrary. also in terms of real earning potential post graduate earning potential there is not a school that ranks in the top 50 in college basketball that is in the top 50 in post graduate earning potential. Graduates from Brandeis University a small division 3 school in MASS, make more money on average that grads of Boston College. Yet if your son was a top high school basketball recruit which school would you have him go to. Most certainly not the one that guarantees a higher non-NBA earning potential I am sure.

by Robert Curre on Jul 6, 2011 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Fantastic post

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jul 6, 2011 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

i inhabit a world

where i work with people that went to college. where i compete with people that went to college and where most of the people that succeed went to college.

college basketball is a way for many kids to get out of the situation they are in and get a degree.

the issues you highlight are real. and they should be addressed… but the way to put out a fire is not to pour gas onto it!

do you honestly think that by paying college ballplayers it will increase the amount that go on to graduate?

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jul 6, 2011 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

I actually believe that the only people

who should be college basketball players are the ones who actually want to go to college. If the kid really does not want to be a college student, why should he be forced to pretend to be one. I believe that if such kids had another venue to practice their craft that did not require all of the present bullshit, then it would be better for them. They get to play basketball, earn some money, and if it does not work out, then they can always go back. Really the reason we do not challenge the present system is it is entertaining for us.

by Robert Curre on Jul 7, 2011 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

the problem is that

besides being entertaining it is a very competitive environment.

If you take the kids out who only want to play ball, you will form a league that has no fans (think minor league baseball). Playing in front of packed arenas is the best way to get ready for the pressure of the NBA.

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jul 7, 2011 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

sure it is

but the pressures of the NBA also extend to handling such a sudden influx of money and the life decisions that come with it.

"Madison Square Garden is the ultimate basketball stage. That's where I belong. That's where I live. That's the home of the New York Knicks." - Amar'e Stoudemire

by Chris Child's Fist on Jul 7, 2011 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

exacitally why

maybe being forced to sit though that economics 101 class isnt a bad idea.

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jul 7, 2011 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

i'm of 2 minds on this one currence...

one mind says i agree… don’t “force” an athlete to pretend to be a student and bastardize the learning process. allow them to pursue their trade unencumbered by other considerations (ie. automotive, culinary arts, electrical, cabinetry etc).

the other mind says… too many young people give up on education too soon and compelling them to step foot in the doors of higher learning, at the very least, gives them the opportunity to learn to love learning or develop other skills.

by bucketsncents on Jul 7, 2011 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

if they didn’t learn to love learning in 12 years of public school why would they start in college?

by Kupe on Jul 7, 2011 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

the high school they went to

may have been crap (which can be said for MANY US high schools).

maybe they never had a professor that reached them.

maybe they had too many at home distractions.

maybe they mature a little after the age of 18.

there are many reasons why kids come out of their shells in college… which is why its good that they try it.

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jul 7, 2011 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

fair point...

but maybe once faced with the reality of independence, they’ll realize they might need to learn some stuff… but than again, they might not.

by bucketsncents on Jul 7, 2011 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah,

there shouldn’t be a money-making appeal college sports. In Europe there is no such thing as using colleges as recruitment stations for pro leagues. If a kid is good he signs a contract with a team whenever they’re willing to give him one (he could be 13 if he’s good enough then). College should be for those who want to learn, and people who can be pros should be allowed to become pros.

by Kupe on Jul 7, 2011 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

the level of competition is much lower

becuase of that.

plus, college in europe is very different then college in america.
 
remember how Jorts was talking about how playing at UK was really positive for him because he was able to learn how to play in a big stadium?

Kiss all that experience goodbye. You take college out of the equation and you have a minor league that nobody will watch.

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jul 7, 2011 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Kiss all that experience goodbye. You take college out of the equation and you have a minor league that nobody will watch.

You don’t know that. If the US had it like America the minor league would be as popular as the college game is now. It might be better even due to higher concentrations of talent per team.

by Kupe on Jul 7, 2011 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

no way

part of the college game is all the students around

people are connected to college campuses. you make them minor league teams, and that goes away.

the college game will always have fans. College baseball is at a level below minor league, and it can be argued the college world series has more fans then minor leagues do!

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jul 7, 2011 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

yea right now

its like that, but that is because of historical factors that made college sports so huge. If what I was talking about was phased in, eventually the minor leagues would be pretty profitable—maybe not as much as college basketball, but the only people who suffer there are the college’s athletic departments

by Kupe on Jul 7, 2011 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

and all the college students who love their teams

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jul 7, 2011 9:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

They'll still have thier teams...

if they watch to support their school they’ll still watch the games

by Kupe on Jul 7, 2011 10:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

That is my point. Stop hiding behind the bullshit of Amatuer athletics.

Do you see how much college coaches at the top schools and universities get paid. This shit is big business, the only ones not getting paid are the damn players. Do you know why Marc Berman is wrong about John Calipari coming in to coach the Knicks after D’Antoni’s contract is up, because Calipari would have to take a fucking pay cut. Coach Cal is getting 7.5 million a year, not counting the money he gets paid to outfit his team in Nike shit, plus he has his own fucking plane and a damn driver. D’Antoni doesn’t have that. Colleges are suposed to be institutions of higher learning yet why is the highest paid employee at Kentucky a guy who does not teach one academic subject. Yet the NCAA wants to act like this is the 1920s when Athletic coaches were often volunteers or part time employees who just liked the sport. Knute Rockne was once the highest paid coach in college athletics, he made 136 dollars a week and in addition to coaching football coached track and taught 2 Phys Ed courses.

by Robert Curre on Jul 1, 2011 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Not only that Calipari has consistently “broken” the rules when he was at UMass and Memphis. The only coach in history to lose both of his Final Four appearances and then be rewarded with a bigger contract. Meanwhile if someone so much as buys a player a hamburger that player might be voilating the rules and become ineligible. Its an absolute travesty that these coaches make what they make and the players dont make anything. Where does the $$$ come from to pay Calipari and others what they pay him? If there were no players there would be no $$$. So if the players are the reason these institutions are making the $$$ then they should get some of it. In the last 10 years or so the amount of money football and basketball make had skyrocketed but yet the players dont see any of that profit at all. Robert Curre you nailed this point perfectly. There are many things to consider and its not a simple solution but some kind of equituy needs to be shown to these players who bring so much $$$ to the institutions they play for.

by crazyj on Jul 2, 2011 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

I can think of reasons to stay away from Calipari.... but him losing in the Final 4 isn't one of them.

Call him what you want, but dude draws tons of attention to his schools and his teams produce stars at the next level. He works his teams liek a minor league squad, sure, but Kentucky does make loads of money from him. He reloads and his teams win a lot of games. Do I support how he does it? Meh… I don’t think he creates much of a player legacy, but dude is not afraid to recruit guys for 1 year.

"Madison Square Garden is the ultimate basketball stage. That's where I belong. That's where I live. That's the home of the New York Knicks." - Amar'e Stoudemire

by Chris Child's Fist on Jul 5, 2011 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

thats what Brandon Jennings did and it worked out quite well for him.

by crazyj on Jul 2, 2011 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

right

that option is there for whoever wants it.

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jul 5, 2011 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Jeremy Tyler tried it and it's ben much different for him.

So I would say it IS an option, but I wouldn’t necessarily call it such a great one.

From a developing standpoint, it’s quite a jump for any teenager to be thrust into world class competition right from high school. And it’s not just about skills, the mental aspect is equally important in my opinion.

Jennings isn;t exactly lighting the NBA on fire either. He came in with a lot of press for the route he took, but while he has played well, his flaws are plenty and I wouldn’t exactly say he has met the expectations place on him just yet.

"Madison Square Garden is the ultimate basketball stage. That's where I belong. That's where I live. That's the home of the New York Knicks." - Amar'e Stoudemire

by Chris Child's Fist on Jul 5, 2011 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

you keep arguing for things you dont realize
From a developing standpoint, it’s quite a jump for any teenager to be thrust into world class competition right from high school. And it’s not just about skills, the mental aspect is equally important in my opinion.

a college campus and environment is where young people in America learn about dealing with life. Its a safe environment where children become adults… you take this away from the kids and give them poor paychecks and thrust them into world class competition.

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jul 5, 2011 7:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

What is this crap?

College athletes don’t have your “college experience” because they’re being driven around campus and jetted around the country to make rich men richer.

I can’t believe you actually buy into any of what you just posted. I think I’ll pretend that you’re trolling.

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jul 5, 2011 8:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

basketball season doesnt last the entire year

and the % of college athletes that have your described college experience is the vast minority.

the 15 – 20 kids a year that would deserve this kickback is not worth opening the Pandora’s box of adding payment to college basketball.

This isnt about the big ass schools and couple kids that are guaranteed nba paychecks. Those people really dont matter in this as much… they are getting the name recognition and will be getting their major paychecks in one years time. they have to spend one year learning how to play in front of huge crowds and getting as much fundamental learnings as can happen.

look at the players that skip college. almost all the time they come into the nba with bad habits and end up taking much longer to figure it out, and the majority dont. Many squeeze by on natural talent, but end up flatting out as poor role players.

yes college ballplayers have a harder road, but you will NEVER convince me that being driven around campus and jetted around the country with million dollar paychecks 1 year away (it they are ready) is harder on an 18 year old then working 2 jobs and loading up on student loans. Just like the nba players today, they can cry me a fucking river.

paying them is making them professionals. If you are really naive enough to think that once college ballplayers can be paid, that it will be this totally fair system that keeps small schools in the hunt for good players and that 18 year olds can handle all the pressure that will accompany it you are just wrong. Agents will have to be allowed into the college ranks and all of a sudden bidding wars will start…

the issues are the money not going back to the school and as you say… making the rich men richer. not that the students are not being adequately rewarded.

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jul 6, 2011 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

look at the players that skip college. almost all the time they come into the nba with bad habits and end up taking much longer to figure it out, and the majority dont. Many squeeze by on natural talent, but end up flatting out as poor role players.

No. The good ones (Kobe, Garnett, Moses Malone) succeed. The bad ones don’t. Same shit with college players.

The idea that college is some magic land where parents drop off their boys and after four years are presented with grown men with perfect values and morals and work ethic is a load of utter bullshit and I can’t believe I’m honestly reading it.

yes college ballplayers have a harder road, but you will NEVER convince me that being driven around campus and jetted around the country with million dollar paychecks 1 year away (it they are ready) is harder on an 18 year old then working 2 jobs and loading up on student loans. Just like the nba players today, they can cry me a fucking river.

Holy false equivalence batman… college ballplayers are already MAKING money from their labor (it’s just being taken by other people) while an 18yo freshman is not generating any revenue yet.

What would you think if a professor sold the rights to each student’s final essay for a million dollars each, and kept all the money? As a student that would feel more than a little unfair wouldn’t it?

same shit. college players labor so others get rich. it’s unbelievably fucked up.

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jul 6, 2011 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

quote fail, sorry.

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jul 6, 2011 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

its not a false equivalence

work study kids work their asses off to help pay for college. i am not talking about the kids work in class, i am tlaking about the hours they slave after class, so they can afford to stay in school (and most of the time barley making enough to get by, and having loads of debt afterward).

the false equivalence is this:


What would you think if a professor sold the rights to each student’s final essay for a million dollars each, and kept all the money? As a student that would feel more than a little unfair wouldn’t it?

both the athlete and the work-study student have papers to hand in.

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jul 6, 2011 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think you're misusing the terms "false equivalence" and "work study"

The only point I’m making is that amateur athletes are not fairly compensated, at all, for their labor.

Fuck the red herrings, the semantic debates over “amateur status” and the meaning of “student-athlete,” and what you think is best for the development of young adults into good and virtuous men. The issue is simple, and you’re avoiding it.

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jul 6, 2011 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

yes

the issue is that people no longer value education and favor quick earnings with no lasting potential.

they value 200 bucks today, over 1000 tomorrow and then complain that they dont have a way to succeed.

if these college athletes are that concerned about money they can go play in Europe, or go to the nba in 1 year time. nobody is forcing them to get an education, and its their own damn fault if they are to stupid to see the opportunities put forth for them.

i dont care what you say, you will never convince me that getting a college degree is a bad idea. and you can go ask my dad or gf (neither of which have college degrees but nonetheless started their own successful businesses) if they wish they had the gotten one when they had the chance.

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jul 6, 2011 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

if the issue you claim g and I are avoiding...

is that student athletes aren’t fairly compensated for their labor… well, then, i must use your word and claim naivete on your part. the issue is much deeper than the surface proclamation you’re making.

by bucketsncents on Jul 6, 2011 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Every issue theoretically has infinite depth

but let’s not miss the point here. As far as I’m concerned, the other “factors” in this issue are red herrings and can be dealt with separately, but they really have no bearing on whether amateur athletes are fairly compensated or not.

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jul 6, 2011 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

define "fair" please...

rooster, you have a unique way of arguing your point by accusing dissenters of “naivete” and “point missing”… without at all acknowledging the validity of said dissenting point.

i/we hear your point… which is that in a vacuum, student/athletes should receive a portion of the money they’re generating for their colleges… and some of us are disagreeing with you because these decisions aren’t made in vacuums… they’re made in the real world where collateral damage is caused and unintended consequences result.

by bucketsncents on Jul 6, 2011 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Here's the deal

Your arguments are based entirely on personal opinion. I think that questioning the effect money has on the character of young athletes is extremely unfair as the exact same issues apply to every single talented and/or priviliged human being alive. It makes me question the purity of your motives more than a little bit. Your rampant questioning of the effect playing for money would have on young athletes is accompanied by exactly zero questioning of the effect it has on the rich people who receive it, and are therefore further motivated to continue exploiting young and naive athletes by hiring salesmen to sell them the world, all the fame and popularity and parties and women they could ever dream of, if they could just sign right here on this dotted line.

So I’d rather simplify the issue to a strictly economical one, because that’s all the really matters. Laborer generates millions, but makes zero income and receives benefits that, even in a best-case scenario, are pitiful in comparison.

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jul 6, 2011 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

i will not agree to your...

stipulations or “decision in a vacuum” approach to discussion… and there you go again with your strange provocation “questioning the purity of my motives”. what could i possibly hope to convey by advocating that the development of young minds be a priority over the fleeting growth of their wallets?

by bucketsncents on Jul 6, 2011 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't know but

by asserting that the fruits of labor should be withheld from legal adult athletes, but not others prone to spend unwisely (so, most Americans), to shield them from “entitlement,” it seems like you want to assert control over this singular group of people and only them, which is odd.

At best, it’s misguided concern coupled with blatant ignorance of the situation’s context, i.e. that the money is currently going to billionaires who act like entitled children themselves (have you seen the Fiesta Bowl reports? holy shit!). At worst, well you can probably guess.

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jul 6, 2011 11:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

i'll spell it out for you again...

the wealthy who profit inordinate amounts of money deserve to held accountable… but this does not mean their profits should go into the pockets of the student-athlete. my emphasis on the development of the student athlete does not exonerate the institution, it merely emphasizes the mistake it would be to pay them extra money. what i would love to see are the profits going to extra tutoring, shared with high schools and training programs, or even more scholarships/financial aid for ALL kinds of low-income students. that would be a great use of the profits (much more so than giving kids money so they can buy shit they don’t really need).

regarding your accusation of “blatant ignorance of the situations context”… i think it’s been made abundantly clear BY YOU (as well as multiple posters), that you don’t want to consider the larger social, developmental or psychological context, and that you in fact want to focus on the one issue of getting student-athletes paid… which shows the most profound lack of perspective.

no one is defending the institutions. advocating for the best interest of learning and development is just not the argument you want to discuss. you seem to be all and only about the money… which is your prerogative.

by bucketsncents on Jul 7, 2011 8:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

Are you arguing against or with me??

Did you read the block you removed? It’s purely in defense of going to college!
My whole point with Tyler was not calling him a success story. Of course college is a major bridge into adulthood!!

I’m not even remotely trying to remove such a phase from kids lives like that.

"Madison Square Garden is the ultimate basketball stage. That's where I belong. That's where I live. That's the home of the New York Knicks." - Amar'e Stoudemire

by Chris Child's Fist on Jul 6, 2011 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

my bust

i honestly confused you and rooster… this thread is getting out of control… that is why i was confused by the quote.

my bad…

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jul 7, 2011 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Please Colleges and universities do not prepare you for life.

Very little about the college experience translates into real life. Not even work life. 90% of the skills I rely on to perform my job I did not learn in college. Colleges and Universities are places by and large where young people get to delay adulthood not train for it. You do realize that only about 20% of high school graduates in this country actually go to college. Yet the overwhelming majority of the remaining 80% manage to transition into adulthood just fine. How can anyone argue that a 20 year old living on a college campus is learning more about real adult life than a 20 year old that is holding down a full time job while paying rent and arguing with a landlord about getting the toilet fixed. None of that is to de-value the benefits of a college education, but to point out that dealing with real adult responsibilities even if that means making a few mistakes along the way is the actual training ground for adulthood. College allows one to delay that experience while possibily earning a degree that will allow one to make a few more dollars when they do have to grow up and act like adults.

by Robert Curre on Jul 6, 2011 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

you made the point you were trying to disagree with...

college allows young people the opportunity to delay adults responsibilities… UNTIL THEY ARE BETTER EQUIPPED TO MEET THOSE RESPONSIBILITIES. It’s not about the skills taught in college, it’s about emotional maturity… which premature compensation and early college departure prevents.

by bucketsncents on Jul 6, 2011 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's a pretty expensive nursery school for people in their late-teens/early 20's.

Your point is certainly valid, but I don’t know if college as an institution was created with the intent for it to become an emotional incubator as its 2nd priority. Or its 5th.

by GAx on Jul 6, 2011 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

no, it most certainly wasn't...

but because of societies propensity to lower standards and reward too easily… they’ve become expensive nursery schools… which paying student/athletes for their “athletic” ability and not their “student” abilities would only embolden.

by bucketsncents on Jul 6, 2011 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, it depends (on you, your profession, your school, etc. etc.)

College really is an imperfect institution, where almost all students don’t get the most out of it and a majority of them shouldn’t be there in the first place. So yeah, gbaked’s idealistic view of a college education as the golden ticket to success and prosperity is more than a little naive.

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jul 6, 2011 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

it's not naive to see the flaws...

to want to stop deepening the damage and to want to remedy them.

and it’s not “realism” to play “the game” by perpetuating destructive protocols, policies and loopholes… that’s more like cynicism.

by bucketsncents on Jul 6, 2011 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

fucking a
the U.S. Census Bureau has released data proving the substantial value of a college education in the United States. Workers 18 and over sporting bachelors degrees earn an average of $51,206 a year, while those with a high school diploma earn $27,915. But wait, there’s more. Workers with an advanced degree make an average of $74,602, and those without a high school diploma average $18,734.

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/censusandstatistics/a/collegepays.htm

a college education is the best way for a young person in America to succeed. its no guarantee… but its a big fucking head start. I cant believe I have to argue with someone that college is worthwhile.

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jul 6, 2011 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

and my guess is the length of earning potential...

grows exponentially as the level of education increases… whereas it probably shrinks exponentially as the level of education decreases. great stat g

by bucketsncents on Jul 6, 2011 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Those numbers don't control for confounding variables and mean nothing

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jul 6, 2011 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

bullshit

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jul 6, 2011 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

How?

In general, more capable students with high earning potential go to college, and less capable students with low earning potential don’t go to college. The capability of the workers whose data was collected is a massive fucking confounding variable.

There is absolutely NOTHING saying that college is THE definitive factor in whether a capable worker makes money or not.

Funny, because identifying the bullshit nature of statistics like the one you posted is literally the first thing I learned in college.

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jul 6, 2011 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

whatever dude

you are right, the numbers are slightly flawed but there are exceptions.

but i cant believe you can honestly argue that college is not worthwhile. what a joke. i’m officially out of this.

There is absolutely NOTHING saying that college is THE definitive factor in whether a capable worker makes money or not.

i would love to hear that on an interview…

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jul 6, 2011 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

*and there are exceptions

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jul 6, 2011 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

i cant believe you can honestly argue that college is not worthwhile.

I’m not. I think my response to Currence clarifies that, but oh well, I can’t force you to read the posts you respond to

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jul 6, 2011 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's not just gbaked. Maybe the way you word your posts make you come off a lot more inflexible than you really are, but I don't think you've conceded one benefit college gives.

Just straight up gives on its own. No equivocating and “The capable student will get out of it what his capability allows”.

Or who knows. Maybe I don’t have any reading comprehension because I never graduated college.

by GAx on Jul 6, 2011 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well like I said below, it's really dependent on the individual

and making any pro- or con- general statements is counterproductive and ultimately harmful to the greater discourse.

Every benefit can be construed as a downfall. Every class that changes one student’s life is the same class that another student skips or sleeps through. Some love the sun, some love the snow. and on an on.

So yeah, I’m resentful of the idea that college is universally beneficial. People who make the conscious decision to not go to college should not be considered as failures and should not be subjected to irrational self-doubt.

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jul 6, 2011 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Since when is this an either-or?

Sometimes college is worth it, sometimes it isn’t. It depends on a laundry list of personalized factors, so ultimately it’s relative.

Holding it as a societal standard of success only hurts those who would be better off avoiding college. It should be considered as an option carefully and rationally, instead of being hailed as the solution to any and all pangs of teenage indecision and angsts of early adulthood.

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jul 6, 2011 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

i would love to hear the times

that its not worth a young man/woman to go to college.

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jul 6, 2011 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

The popular examples here are Steve Jobs and Bill Gates

who left college early because financial opportunity beckoned.

they’re not the only ones – quite often, a motivated and skilled person wastes their time in college. more often, a student without much earning potential gets a degree and ends up swamped in loan debts while working menial jobs.

It exposes some sad societal truths but the relevant point is that college is not universally beneficial

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jul 6, 2011 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

man oh man
“I don’t think dropping out (of college) is a good idea… I am glad I got two-and-a-half years of college. Now I have completed the equivalent of some number of degrees by online courses,” Gates told an audience of over 1700 students at the University of Chicago yesterday.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/dropping-out-of-college-is-not-a-good-idea-bill-gates/609913/

An education-focused app hopes to take Facebook back to its original purpose: creating a school community—and it might just keep students from dropping out of college. In fact, the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation believes in Schools App so much, they’re backing it with a $2.1 million investment. It’s a signal that the foundation, which has long pushed college as a goal, believes that social media plays a significant role in keeping kids from dropping out once they get on campus.

http://www.good.is/post/can-a-facebook-app-prevents-college-dropouts-bill-gates-thinks-so/

you point to some of the smartest most ingenious people of all time as examples. what a joke.

if a student has the capabilities of a steve fucking jobs or a bill fucking gates, then yes… college may not be the best course of action.

but man, what a small % of people you are talking about.

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jul 6, 2011 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re-read my post please

I think it’s generally the people with LESS capability, skill, and/or motivation who don’t benefit from college.

If you’re highly skilled/motivated, it becomes a complex decision. Sometimes the financial and temporal benefit of not getting a degree pays off. It would happen more often if “dropping out” didn’t hold a purely negative connotation, which Gates is only making worse in your quote above (he and Jobs are far from intellectual luminaries btw, and I cited them as popular examples, not really my own)

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jul 6, 2011 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

this is a joke

people who are 18 years old are counted as less capability and should forgo college?

dropping out holds a purely negative connotation, because the number of people that drop out and succeed are few and far between.

and dropping out isnt really even the issue. if you go, find its not for you and drop out to do what you want… kudos. but you tried it… you found something else.

because to work in corporate america without a degree is extremely difficult.

more often, a student without much earning potential gets a degree and ends up swamped in loan debts while working menial jobs.

so stupid people should just stay stupid! dont try to learn and better yourself and try to prepare for life… stay menial, because if you are born a delta, you die a delta… dont go trying to get out of those khaki’s and clean my floor!

you can tell your son or daughter to skip college. I will tell mine to be nice to them when they are their bosses.

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jul 6, 2011 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

people who are 18 years old are counted as less capability and should forgo college?

No, people who are 18 years old and will lose more than they gain in the long term by going to college should forgo college. People who aren’t yet sure of themselves yet feel pulled towards college because it’s a societal construct should consider forgoing college in the short term, and maybe the long term.

dropping out holds a purely negative connotation, because the number of people that drop out and succeed are few and far between.

You’re defining “success” by material earnings, and assuming that the low-wage worker is a “failure.” This is modern-day feudalism and is utterly destructive. Many dropouts are making the right decision for themselves – they hit a point where college is no longer beneficial.

and dropping out isnt really even the issue. if you go, find its not for you and drop out to do what you want… kudos. but you tried it… you found something else.

If you go because it’s what everyone is expected to do, find that it’s not for you or you’re not ready, and drop out, have fun with the student loan debt, sucker! A lot of kids in this position should have made an educating decision before enrolling. You’re telling them not to think it through.

because to work in corporate america without a degree is extremely difficult.

Not every 18yo is looking towards a future in corporate America, or in a degree-requiring field. Ultimately, skills and motivation prevail. The value of a degree from a top college in the corporate world is severely overstated – just ask any hiring manager.

so stupid people should just stay stupid! dont try to learn and better yourself and try to prepare for life… stay menial, because if you are born a delta, you die a delta… dont go trying to get out of those khaki’s and clean my floor!

you can tell your son or daughter to skip college. I will tell mine to be nice to them when they are their bosses.

If said son and daugher exist, then you’re training them to base their happiness and self-worth on artificial accomplishments and external wealth, and will consider them failures if they end up happily working for lower wages sans degree/student loan debt. Please don’t do this.

Pretty sure the pursuit of knowledge can happen outside of college doors, and that anyone who doesn’t define success by their actual happiness is cheating themselves out of an enjoyable existence.

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jul 6, 2011 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

is there an UN-rec action?...

if you’re speaking of personal choice… than heck yeah, everyone deserves the right to choose for themselves the path they wish to walk. whether it’s college, a professional degree or job corps, if a student chooses this path… more power to them. what you refuse to acknowledge is that posters here (other than you) are talking about opportunities. the more education and training a young person receives, the more options they have… it is not only about salary… it is about evolving ones mind, in whatever capacity, in ways that allow for greater opportunities in the future.

students who put their eggs in one basket (ie. professional athlete) at the expense of any sort of formal training or education, while it is their “right” to do so, are not making a sound, or safe decision by the mere fact that they will have few to no options should their decision not pan out… and because the student athlete is younger, and lacks years on the planet to accumulate the wisdom some (though not all… ahem) have accumulated… they continue to require guidance (not to be confused with “social controls”).

happiness is not tethered to a larger paycheck… but i think/hope/doubt you will agree that the more options a person has, the more likely it is that they feel satisfied in their lives.

paying student athletes would only serve to increase the likelihood that they put eggs in one basket, and walk away from “option-creating” endeavors (like education) when that basket breaks.

by bucketsncents on Jul 7, 2011 8:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

its so funny to me that you feel that
You’re defining "success" by material earnings, and assuming that the low-wage worker is a "failure." This is modern-day feudalism and is utterly destructive.

because i dont. at all. and it drives my mom crazy.

what constitutes success in my eyes is doing what you truly want to do with your life. If that is a menial wage job… then I guess more power to you.

if you really want the options to try to accomplish your dreams, then you should go to college and get a secondary education. not doing so will make it very difficult to get an opportunity.

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jul 7, 2011 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

yeah...

by following that statement by scoffing at wage workers, you’re becoming the reason that wage jobs ARE menial. So you’re actively hurting your own stated cause.

As far as “following your dreams” goes, the culture of chasing great external dreams leads to constant feelings of failure (only so many of us can have money/fame/glory). By supporting a rat race fueled by delusion you are ensuring that the majority of people will, like they do now, spend their adult lives being unhappy.

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jul 7, 2011 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

what the heck are you talking about?

you’re the one who wants to pay kids (external motivation) to go to school, rather than think of mechanisms to challenge them to cultivate an actual interest in learning, or professions other than playing a sport.

and you’re the one who is in favor of supporting the delusion that student-athletes will all make it to the show… or if they don’t, should just drop out.

the more options a person has, the likelier they are to choose a path that feeds their interests… the less options a person has, the likelier they are to get locked into a job they have no choice but to take. education breeds more options.

by bucketsncents on Jul 7, 2011 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

so in your world

having a high school education opens you up to all the options in the world and gives you the ability to follow your dreams, but by going to college you are forced to enter the rat race and are doomed to a life of unhappiness…

right…

I mean… at that rate why even go to HS??? Clearly the real world is the best way to learn about life and become happy. All those non-HS graduates are just the epitome of a happy life.

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jul 7, 2011 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Non-HS graduates would be happier

if people like you didn’t consider them failures.

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jul 7, 2011 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

oh god, heres the problem with some people

Instead of calling them idiots for not graduating, you want to coddle people and say its okay

by Kupe on Jul 7, 2011 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

How about I want to do neither

and simply respect people who respect themselves, instead of looking down at people who didn’t hit a certain checkpoint in a broken hierarchical system?

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jul 7, 2011 7:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

i dont consider them failures

where did I say that? I dont at all. even a little.

this is officially the point where i dont want to be involved with this discussion. im out.

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jul 7, 2011 9:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

i am not scoffing at wage workers

but I dont think that many people working for minimum wage are actively pursuing their dream professions.

If they ahd the opportunity to go get a secondary education, they I am sure 99% of them would have taken it.

That is why you always hear people saying things like, “I worked double shifts for years so my kids had the chance to go to college and do something with their life.”

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jul 7, 2011 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

There is a reason why only a small

Percentage of people go to college and why a college education is a requirement for jobs, it has to do with elitism. If every adult in the united states had a PHD, who would empty our trash, pour our coffee at Starbucks, make our beds at hotels, and ask us if we want fries with that. Also who in the hell would make cars, build houses and all the other aspects of the American dream!. Lastly if more than a certain percentage of the population had degrees it would drive wages and prices through the roof, because in order to get people to do certain types of work you would have to pay astronomical fees. Imagine what your groceries would cost if inorder to get Cashiers supermarkets had to pay them 100k a year!

by Robert Curre on Jul 7, 2011 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

talk about idealism

i really dont think the idea of every person in america getting a phd is something that needs to be worried about.

getting as many people educated in this country as possible is a good thing. period.

its not about elitism, its about making the population as smart as possible.

the idea that only certain people should have the opportunity to get a phd is elitism… the idea of getting as many people into schools of higher learning is just the opposite!

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jul 7, 2011 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

So if that is the case, why

charge tuition, why have entrance examinations and the such. Why not just let everyone who graduates high school go to college. Why are there so many obstacles put in the way

by Robert Curre on Jul 7, 2011 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

i would love it

if every American child that wanted to, could go to college.

but man, its hard enough just to get it so all children can go to a doctor… trying to get them all college educations is just not gonna happen.

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jul 7, 2011 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

OK, million dollar question

Why is college THE definitive experience for any young adult?

Why not traveling around the world, or finding a job, or volunteering? All things which themselves add to a resume, often moreso than a college degree.

College is big business that, like any corporation, sells fairy tales and often doesn’t equitably reward the consumer.

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jul 7, 2011 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

just because people...

are stating the importance of education doesn’t mean they’re looking “down” at those who don’t get one. taking the seemingly opposite position is a great way to keep an argument going, but it’s a false assumption. no one is saying people who don’t graduate H.S. or college deserve to die, nor are they/we saying that their lives are any less valuable… people are only stating that the way society is currently structured, having an education significantly increases options and prepares individuals for more kinds of jobs than less.

conspiracy theories sound great (well, not really) and alternative lifestyles/choices (world traveling, volunteering etc) are perfectly fine choices for people… but this has nothing to do with your inability to acknowledge that education does in fact increase options and minimize the likelihood of at some point becoming jobless.

can you at the very least acknowledge these truths?

by bucketsncents on Jul 7, 2011 9:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

no one is saying people who don’t graduate H.S. or college deserve to die, nor are they/we saying that their lives are any less valuable…

straw man

people are only stating that the way society is currently structured, having an education significantly increases options and prepares individuals for more kinds of jobs than less

Not a universal truth. College can also limit options, or just act as a way to pass the time. Kids out of HS are generally not ready for college, as is evidenced by dropout rates (over 50%, probably even more now)

conspiracy theories sound great (well, not really) .

What conspiracy theories?

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jul 7, 2011 9:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

And people wouldn't even mind doing these jobs so much

if they weren’t treated like dirt.

People want love and compassion more than they want money.

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jul 7, 2011 7:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

that's a reply to Currence too

the one way up the thread

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jul 7, 2011 7:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

really?

‘cause it seems that you’re saying that all student-athletes want is more money… not more love, compassion and respect.

by bucketsncents on Jul 7, 2011 9:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm not saying anything about what they want

but rather what they should receive, as they are employees whose labor is used by employers to make a profit.

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jul 7, 2011 9:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

crippling debt

"But when he saw it, he just put his hands up and they couldn’t give it to him. It just fell to the ground, I-I don’t, you know … So, that showed me he had great experience..." - Jeff Van Gundy

by Anthony Bonner's Subpoena on Jul 6, 2011 8:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

right now I am at a NYC college

that I pay, out of pocket, a tuition of about 6 grand a year.

crippling debt is not a necessity of going to college. You dont need a 40 grand a semester university to get a quality education.

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jul 7, 2011 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yet only 20% of Americans go to college. You are arguing

a moot point especially when it pertains to college athletes. There isn’t an argument that a college education increases the earning potential of a person. The issue is should the NBA and the NCAA continue the sham that college basketball players especially at the top programs are actually students and kids need to go before being NBA players.

If the kid does not have the grades or the desire to be a college student, why should he be to work towards being a professional basket ball player? Why not set up Minor league or training academies where all the guy does is work on basketball. And then they could compete against other such places around the country. Hey the mechanic who fixes my car went to a school where all he did was learn how to fix cars, he did not have to take humanities or Calculus, he worked on cars for 6 hours a day.

If a kid wants to play basketball but does not want to write English composition papers (which will not help him master the pick and roll for example) why not have a avenue where he could pursue his desired trade? Ans the NCAA will never allow it. This has nothing to so with students is has to do with business.

by Robert Curre on Jul 7, 2011 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

your auto mechanic

who only worked on cars for 6 hours a day, has many ways to work on cars after he finished his schooling. he just has to be adequate to get a job in his field after he is done.

Your college baller has to be in the top 5% or so of all college ball players to even get a shot at having a career… and out of those that get a shot, even less make it. By making kids go though college to get to the pros, it is giving a chance at success to the kids that had hoop dreams, just to find out that they were not good enough.

And I think phil jackson would have a bone to pick with you about how being a well rounded individual doesnt help you on the court.

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jul 7, 2011 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

If the college athletics system was not so hyped

and it wasn’t the primary place for kids with NBA dreams to go, the kids who went for sports would be fine because they wouldn’t be those with NBA potential. The ones with NBA potential would go to those training academies, or minor league teams, or w.e the system would be. The ones who didn’t would go to get a degree and play some ball while doing it.

by Kupe on Jul 7, 2011 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Phil Jackson would be full of shit then

Since Phil lobbied to keep Andrew Bynum even though Bynum hadn’t read Chaucer! And If the young man who wanted to be a pro baller, had a place he could go where he spend all of his time working on his game, the chances of him getting in the top 5% would be greater.

Secondly I am a college graduate as are most of my friends and I am sorry buddy but haing a college degree does not make you well rounded. I know garbage men and barbers who are more well rounded than 90% of the college graduates I know.

by Robert Curre on Jul 7, 2011 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Something has gotten lost in this debate

The original idea was NOT against a college education at all. It was about discussing the notion that maybe a full scholarship might not be enough of a ‘compensation’ for STUDENTS who are ALSO top athletes for their schools and who are the catalysts in generating substantial revenues for the school. Often times these revenues can get into the $100 MILLION dollar + range.

Of course it’s way controversial to ‘pay’ student athletes (who are supposed to be amateurs), but given the unbelievable money generated from sports like basketball, football and baseball, could not a small portion of that revenue be funnelled somehow back to the very players who are laregly responsible for it??

That is NOT at all saying education doesn’t matter either. It’s in ADDITION to education. Now we know plenty of schools let their athletes skip through on very light courseloads and such, but they ARE still expected to be at class and pass their courses. Paying the athletes would not replace any of those other obligations! However, given the rigorous daily schedules of these athletes (on top of coursework, btw), and the stipulation that they are not allowed to hold jobs or get paid other than miniscule meal stipends on gamedays, is it not a reasonable consideration to compensate these players at least a fraction of what they generate in merchandise sales (amongst other revenue related to their sport)? Let me emphasize that I am NOT talking about paying these kids millions of dollars or even hundreds of thousands! But holy crap, colleges make boatloads of cash on footbll and basketball jerseys alone. People buy those things because they wish to represent the PLAYER much more than the school!

I’m not ignoring the implications or the heavy unlikihood of this happening here, but I am more focused on the idea that this could possibly help improve graduation rates even slightly. I wouldn’t say the compensation should replace a full-time income, but some sort of plan could be implemented in such a way that any payment may be contingent on a specific GPA (say 2.8 for arguments sake). Sure players might still leave early for NBA, MLB, NFL, NHL riches, etc… but this may incentivize students to remain in school a little longer while relieving some possible stress related financial burdens at home. Students make some money but they still receive their college education, which, I absolutely agree is very beneficial as a transition from student to career-oriented individual. Let’s talk about THIS hypothetical. I’m not trivializing or underselling a college education guys.

These tangents that divulge into bashing everyone’s personal ideals are not helping. I’m not concerned with everyone’s credibility. Let’s talk about THIS topic please.

"Madison Square Garden is the ultimate basketball stage. That's where I belong. That's where I live. That's the home of the New York Knicks." - Amar'e Stoudemire

by Chris Child's Fist on Jul 7, 2011 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

well said...

and reasonable. i think the debate has devolved into a bit of a pissing contest, and while i’m intrigued by the idea of enticing students-athletes (especially the ones most likely NOT headed to professional sports) to remain in school (hopefully to completion) with financial supplements (contingent upon attendance and performance), i don’t see it as a simple decision. there are potential unintended consequences with any decision of gravity, and my few off the top of my head concerns with paying student-athletes are as follows:

- education is devalued and money prioritized within the students
- non-student-athletes don’t get the same opportunities
- the athletic programs might further involve themselves in academic matters, compromising the integrity of the students education
- who decides how much? and are the student athletes responsible enough to use the money responsibly?
- and just because the money is there, and is generated by the games and the student-athletes, doesn’t mean it “deserves” to go into their pockets (nor should it go directly into the college pockets either). it could go to other places of use… like the communities/high schools the colleges are located (i know, liberal, idealist crap… but i’m just saying)

best idea is connecting any money to attendance and academic performance… OVER TIME, and with stipulations (like put on a debit card to be used for essentials only)

by bucketsncents on Jul 7, 2011 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

The big thing to me is definitely keeping the money "clean" and prioritized too.

It’s no secret that agents find ways to funnel money to athletes trying to entice them into hiring them for the future. Of course when you think about colleges using money as incentive for their athletes its gotta be in such a way where it is well tracked, documented and legit.

And it’s way tough to prioritize because you would have to consider how to compensate a team justly. Does everyone on the team get “shares”? Do just the starters? Should everyone on the team receive an equal share? Is it fair to give the worst player on the team the same share as the best? Questions like that. You know, to combat corruption and such.

I also think the non-student-athletes would be a nonfactor for the most part. I see what you are saying in terms of opportunity though. Sports is it’s own program. You have to be “accepted” into it via scholarship, or making the team as a walk-on, etc.
Students at schools all have the option of “trying out” and such, but like joing frats or exclusive clubs, well, not everyone makes it and they seem to understand and accept that.

Also to control how athletes use the money, well, certain limitations can be placed, like no alcohol or if the money can only be used on say a debit card, well, no cash withdrawals or something. School has to be able to track every dollar. Course this calls into question “discounts” athletes could receive at stores and such. I can’t say I have an idea to prevent that other than having them turn in receipts or something. Definitely not that simple, but I can’t help but feel some mechanism can be created.

You’re right it won’t happen… i mean, it’s just a drastic change right now. But yeah, one would hope if it is to be considered, attendance and academic performance would be a major requirement.

"Madison Square Garden is the ultimate basketball stage. That's where I belong. That's where I live. That's the home of the New York Knicks." - Amar'e Stoudemire

by Chris Child's Fist on Jul 7, 2011 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

i agree

well said.

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jul 7, 2011 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah the revenue sharing I'm more inclined to do away with.

However, they do it in the NFL, and if you think about it… there is SOME sense to it. I mean, I may be wrong, but I believe the revenue sharing does include mercahndise sales and such. So, you know… people buy LeBron James jerseys because it’s him, not the Miami Heat. So Lebron getting a small piece of THAT piece seems a bit fair.

Here is an article that compares the NBA to the MLB and NFL though…
Jones on the NBA

"Madison Square Garden is the ultimate basketball stage. That's where I belong. That's where I live. That's the home of the New York Knicks." - Amar'e Stoudemire

by Chris Child's Fist on Jun 30, 2011 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

The salaries come from the % of revenue

salary caps are set and max contracts/MLEs are determined as percentages of league revenue

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jun 30, 2011 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Derrick Brown made 222,000 dollars. His contract was a pro-rated 1 million. meaning

he only got paid out of that mil the money for the number of games left.

As for a lockout being the last resort, legally it is their only resort, thanks to Bob Mcadoo. The owners cannot legally decide to stop giving out bad contracts unless the player’s association allows them to. If all 29 owners (NO is without an owner) got together and said, David Lee got 82 million! That is fucking crazy, no way in hell we do that again and they all agree and stick to it, they have broken the law. If a player with similiar numbers to David Lee gets zero offers in the Lee range even from teams trying to sign him that have the cap space, they can go to court and sue the owners for collusion. That is what Bob McAdoo did, when zero teams were willing to pay him the 6 million dollars that Elvin Hayes was making, even though his numbers were better than Hayes’. The league and the owners tried to argue that they were simply trying to control spending because the league was losing money and that Hayes’ contract was signed by a team that he already played for, was profitable and the league was in better financial shape the. The Judge found them to have colluded against McAdoo, and they league was ordered to play McAdoo 18 mil (the case took 3 years during which time McAdoo was in Italy playing with D’Antoni). So really a lockout is the only recourse.

by Robert Curre on Jun 30, 2011 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

whatever

i dont really care to be honest.

the whole thing is pathetic.

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jun 30, 2011 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

defense

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jun 30, 2011 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

^ no idea what happened there

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jun 30, 2011 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Rec'd
So really a lockout is the only recourse.

Great explanation. It seems like a Greek tragedy unfolding.

by YuckFou on Jul 1, 2011 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

I dunno what to think on this

actually, I ain’t thinking on this. I could honestly care less about who’s getting less money when talking about millions of dollars. Whether or not these assholes can gas up their planes is something I’m not concerned with.

All I know is I want basketball and I want a situation that helps the Knicks out. Also if Dolan can get exiled from the NBA, even better.

Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows

by Rorschach44 on Jun 30, 2011 12:56 PM EDT reply actions   2 recs

rec'd for the exilation of dolan

Dear fox.... Fire Aikman
Lebron james is a bitch
The new Prince of NY is here
Desean Jackson IS a punk
27 Going on 28 NYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by Lawrence Taylor The Real LT on Jun 30, 2011 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

double rec'd...

i love the game and the chess of putting together a team…

the greed and entitlement SUCKS!

figure it out douchebags and stop trying to win in the “court of public opinion” and JUST GET ON THE FUCKING COURT AND ENTERTAIN US!

by bucketsncents on Jun 30, 2011 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

rec'ded for the double recieve and the part where you were yelling at the owners.

then need to stop trying to copy the NFL

Dear fox.... Fire Aikman
Lebron james is a bitch
The new Prince of NY is here
Desean Jackson IS a punk
27 Going on 28 NYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by Lawrence Taylor The Real LT on Jun 30, 2011 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

"The entitlement sucks! Now give me what I want!"

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jun 30, 2011 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

yup, unlike millionaire athletes and owners, fans ARE entitled...

because we’re paying… and all we’re asking for is what we’re paying for, which is basketball games to watch. we’re not asking that we have hooters wings delivered to our homes by hooters waitresses to feed us wings and boobies… we’re asking simply for what we’re paying for. the players want more than an average salary of 5 MILLION DOLLARS… and the owners are asking that a law be passed protecting them from themselves so they can stay billionaires and preventing their commodities from getting even wealthier.

by bucketsncents on Jun 30, 2011 8:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

You have an expectation of entertainment that's not fulfilled

Players have an expectation of salary that’s not fulfilled.

You don’t ask for wings and silicone, and they don’t ask for their salaries to be tripled.

See how it works?

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jul 1, 2011 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

i was gonna take a more nuetral side

but after reading what the owners are looking for and re-evaluated it… fuck the owners
they are just dumb if they think thats what the nba should be.
selfish pricks

Dear fox.... Fire Aikman
Lebron james is a bitch
The new Prince of NY is here
Desean Jackson IS a punk
27 Going on 28 NYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by Lawrence Taylor The Real LT on Jun 30, 2011 2:06 PM EDT reply actions  

Right now, Players are guaranteed 57% of revenue

They offered to lower that to 54%, Owners said no.

While the lockout is on, Owners don’t have to pay salary and they don’t have to pay salary for the lost time once the lockout ends. My personal theory is that the owners want to make up some of that money by locking out for the summer. When the season gets near, all of a sudden the owners will start moving off their hardline position and accept modest concession from the players, I think.

I have some sympathy for the owners even though they do stupid shit. They are in competition with other owners and that creates an enviornment where each owner feels like they need to overpay. And when it comes to the mid-level, the only thing an owner can sweeten the deal with is years.

Really, the length of contracts is what causes Eddy Curry and Jerome James situations to begin with. The salary cap is one thing, but add all these guaranteed years on and sometimes the total committed salaries bring down the worth of the franchise. The players love those long deals for the security, until they want to change teams, then they want their cake after eating it.

I think in August we will see some movement having to do with length of contracts, particularly the mid-level, and also you may see the end of restricted free agency, because that drives up prices artifically too. If I were an owner, I’d be much more interested in restricting the length of contracts than in quibbling between 54% and 57%. I think a lot of what the owners are doing now is a smokescreen, and that they’ve intended to lock the players out for the summer all along.

Get The Frickin' Rebound

by fuhry on Jun 30, 2011 2:29 PM EDT reply actions  

Interesting theory

And it’s comforting if it’s true, because if they really want to keep the 2 billion and haggle over revenue percentages, it would be stupid. A lockout that cuts into the season would be a huge loss for the NBA so I’m guessing some time mid-late August is when we’ll see the new CBA.

I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is that moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle - victorious.

Vince Lombardi

by moose35 on Jun 30, 2011 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

A lock out that cuts into the season would keep 49 million in Michael Jordan's pocket

Just saying. Also guys like Dolan would still make plenty of money. Alot of the owners have deals to run other events in their venues or get a portion of the revenue. Jerry Buss gets 15% of everything that goes on in the Staples center.

by Robert Curre on Jun 30, 2011 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

15% of revenue from shows

And all the revenue that comes from ticket sales and television deals in NBA games is a huge difference. There’s more money in that. Obviously the owner’s won’t be starving during the lockout, but they’ll want to get the NBA going as well.

I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is that moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle - victorious.

Vince Lombardi

by moose35 on Jun 30, 2011 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

there might be no nfl, no nba

and baseball is mind-numbingly boring. this sucks

GO CUSE, BLUE, AND EAGLES!

by tanman5 on Jun 30, 2011 4:36 PM EDT reply actions  

lets go rangers

Flyers take it up the ass, doo dah, doo dah, Flyers take it up the ass, all lah doo lah day.

by FIRESATHER327 on Jun 30, 2011 5:08 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

soccer!

sounds like the NFL is sorting itself out though

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jun 30, 2011 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

their will definitley be an NFL.

but that wont matter for u cuz dem eagles will suck

Dear fox.... Fire Aikman
Lebron james is a bitch
The new Prince of NY is here
Desean Jackson IS a punk
27 Going on 28 NYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by Lawrence Taylor The Real LT on Jun 30, 2011 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's a tough call. But if you don't side with the players, you have to sympathize with them.

Some owners are born into money, some earn it through hard work and sacrifice. But they don’t necessarity have “careers” as owners. This is a passion for some, but an investment for all. They are in it for a profit, and when they sell, they will sell for a profit. The players have careers. Those careers come as a result of taking a God given gift, and adding to it alot of hard work and sacrifice. Shoveling snow out of the park in the winter time to practice, playing through insane injuries at a young age, focusing on basketball rather than school so you can get your family out of poverty by age 21 rather than age 31. A few are going to play for 18-29 years, but a vast majority are going to be out of the league within three years of the day they show up. For some of this years draft picks, their rookie contract will be the only NBA contract they ever sign.

The difference between the owners and the players is the only thing the players own is themselves. The CBA dictates how they sell their one product to the owners. The owners all own teams… and something else. They will not have their careers as businessment cut short due to a freak injury. They have consultants that make sure they don’t have half their money taken away in taxes like the players do. You never hear stories about down and out former owners living in their cars. Most players have to make their money between four and six years, then used that money to refinance their lives into a post basketball career… which because no player plans to have a short career, they are rarely prepared to do.

So although my mind is on fairness, my heart is with the players. Fairness dictates that the owners need a model that makes them money. Only in sports do the businessmen rewrite the rules of the industry to cover up for their bad business practices. A hard cap is necessary. Its a good business practice. But it should be secondary to better revenue sharing by the owners. They owners have to understand that this is not regular business, and you do not profit by putting the competition out of business. This is like a pyramid business, you profit by making sure everyone else profits.

There are creative ways to get some things that eveyone wants. They can implement a hard cap of $45million but allow them to pay up to another 10 million in signing bunuses annually. So if you have one great player you want to keep happy, give him all 10. Or spread it out between 2 or three players. Keep bird rights in, and keep five year contracts, but allow contracts to be voided if a player misses more than 60% of his games two years in a row due to injury by whatever team owns their rights. So injured player contracts will be added value like expiring contracts, and the player has two years to get healthy or come off the books. Allow players to renegotiate their contracts after the second year if they want to give some up for the cause. These are top of the head things, so I’m sure those great owner/players association minds will come up with better.

The main thing is, though, the owners have to share their revenue more. The players should not get 50% of the profit because they don’t make 50% of the investment. But the owners need to work out the TV revenue, Jersey sales, etc. differently. If you build a new arena for 500 million, and then complain that you lost money the following year, that is not a player issue. Players salaries overall have risen over the past twenty years, but no one is making 30 million for a season like Jordan did. Total salaries have gone up, but tier one salaries have stablized. Arena’s haven’t gotten bigger, but cable contracts have. The owners need a better business model that doesn’t involve the players before they bring the players in… which is what the players asked for in the first place.

When I get in the game... win or lose... you know it's pretty much over.

by Hawthorne Nathaniel Wingo on Jun 30, 2011 8:19 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Well-written piece

I'm a New Yorker born and bred. I support my Jets, Mets, Red Storm and Islanders. I also love my out-of-state Bulls, Clippers, Cowboys & Fighting Irish.

by Xfactor26 on Jun 30, 2011 8:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

I side with the players also

Below, Raj m links to one of the articles I read on Deadspin.

I have long been suspicious of big business players’ claims of losses. They are way out of my league when it comes to money but I’ve learned that they do not lose. However, they may sacrifice some little guys along the way. So showing me a financial statement that has been audited and approved by an independent accounting firm is the height of disrespect. Seriously, where are the real books?

If an owner buys a team the first question is why? And, if that purchase offers them other perks, property and/or access that is financially viable, where is this indicated on the books?
Just because you can “legally” claim something as a loss doesn’t mean you’ve lost. So what’s good for the IRS and creative financing does not belong in the same conversation when dealing with players. That’s slick and dishonest and that pisses me off.

The owners have been planning this for a long time so I hope all of the players are ready. I truly hope that the over-the-top salary earners that bloat the averages have socked away some funds to aide the rest of the players.

I’m in for the long haul. Where can I get a STAND T-shirt?

by Willo on Jul 1, 2011 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

In the late 70's and early 80's many wealthy men

purchased franchises purely for the tax benefit of writing-off depreciation on assets, a player they paid 200,000 was written off as depreciating in millions each year. The purpose was to show a loss as part of their larger business plan to hold on to more of the money they earned through their varying businesses often they were real estate tycoons. I don’t imagine accounting practices have changed very much otherwise why would 22 owners hold on to franchises that are losing money.

by ubd on Jul 1, 2011 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

That is precisely why they can't use that argument to the NBPA.

It just seems to me that some wealthy people have become dangerously greedy.

Chris Broussard just said that it is a few of the newer owners that are pushing this the hardest.

by Willo on Jul 1, 2011 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

not sure where I got this from. If it’s a re-post from something in the post I apologize.

The owners aren’t losing money. That’s why they hold the “books” so close to the vest. Through the use of LEGAL tactics they can turn a 7 mil profit into a 25 mil loss. But I don’t blame them. They intelligently used the laws of this country in place. The real change needs to come from the legislators who allow certain tax laws to exist. And seeing the state of affairs in this country we know that will never happen, so we must change what we can.

I think a hard cap needs to be in place, but no rollbacks. say there will be a 5 year grace period to get under the cap, and have spending now until that 5 year mark be a function of how much space you have. The lakers would be exempt from making new deals that would put them over the cap, unless they make moves to lower their payroll. I liken it to a scenario in investing when you have a margin account. You can’t spend more than X % of the initial capital you have already invested.

This would also serve to keep the old guys in shape. In the NFL youngsters have the advantage of roster spots, but they don’t get the payday because the cycle of new kids coming in moves them out. I’d hate to have to deal with their system.

I feel a hard cap would remove the gun from the owners heads (if we don’t sign drew gooden to an outrageous deal someone else will. we still want him but we have to overpay). If there is a level playing field it makes salaries come down. This is where I say the players should get to keep a larger portion of the revenues to make up for it.

An interesting post clarifies this accounting “magic”
http://deadspin.com/5816870/

by raj m on Jun 30, 2011 9:58 PM EDT reply actions  

The owners are lying about the numbers, no doubt about it,

but I still think that the players should only get 50% of the revenue. It’s a lovely, even number that neither side can really complain about. That’s my general thought. I may return to this post later to add in some of my opinions on more specific CBA matters. The most interesting part, to me, has nothing to do with the players – revenue sharing.

by BJabs on Jul 1, 2011 12:17 AM EDT reply actions  

It's not really about the percentage

but what constitutes the revenue is the real issue.

by YuckFou on Jul 2, 2011 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

most do

Dear fox.... Fire Aikman
Lebron james is a bitch
The new Prince of NY is here
Desean Jackson IS a punk
27 Going on 28 NYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by Lawrence Taylor The Real LT on Jul 1, 2011 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Guys, check out these two SB Nation Articles.

I don’t always agree with the writers, but I think they are right on the money with these.

David Stern is Lying to You

David Stern is Killing His Legacy

"Madison Square Garden is the ultimate basketball stage. That's where I belong. That's where I live. That's the home of the New York Knicks." - Amar'e Stoudemire

by Chris Child's Fist on Jul 1, 2011 12:11 PM EDT reply actions  

Good articles
There’s also the matter of the franchises counting their purchase cost (and debt financing) as an expense of the team, when that’s plainly wrong

 I suspect that many owners are doing precisely this, which is why they don’t want the union or public to see the books.

by YuckFou on Jul 1, 2011 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree too.

In this world everything is spun to the Nth degree. And I won’t lie… I know the Players Union takes the Owners Proposals and looks to spin them as well.

Its frustrating because it just feels like it is so difficult to get the actual truth. The NBA wants to show how much money they are losing so they spin things like this to come up with a number. The Players Union take their own numbers and they probably leave out certain details themselves!

"Madison Square Garden is the ultimate basketball stage. That's where I belong. That's where I live. That's the home of the New York Knicks." - Amar'e Stoudemire

by Chris Child's Fist on Jul 2, 2011 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

no doubt each side is putting on a dog and pony show for our benifit

I think Fuhry has it right and that we will see a settlement sometime in October. But then again the Goose that Laid the Golden Eggs was killed by greed so I guess anything is possible.

by YuckFou on Jul 2, 2011 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah I mean, I almost wish we could just bypass these next couple months.

It’s pretty easy to see that the politics going on here won’t get serious until the deadline is closer.

"Madison Square Garden is the ultimate basketball stage. That's where I belong. That's where I live. That's the home of the New York Knicks." - Amar'e Stoudemire

by Chris Child's Fist on Jul 5, 2011 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

fuckin a

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jul 7, 2011 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's gotten so bad

that poor Michael Beasley has been reduced driving around, smoking marijua—hey wait a minute.

by flossy on Jul 7, 2011 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

'nuff to drive a man crazy...

start seein’ oasis where dere no watah… or mirage’s of bonzi’s flying through da air.

by bucketsncents on Jul 7, 2011 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

x

Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows

by Rorschach44 on Jul 7, 2011 4:52 PM EDT reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Posting and Toasting: Blogging the Knicks Robin Hood-Style Since 2007

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Ed-in-chief_small
Updated Knick Pride 2.0: Bocker Bench goes bonkers
Ed-in-chief_small
Knick Pride
Jorts6_small
Next Season's Roster and the Cap and the Tax
Jorts6_small
Game 6 Optimism Thread!

Recent FanPosts

Small
American in Taiwan Jeremy & Woodson
Clydeuglysuit_small
Proposed Amare TRAID!
Ed-in-chief_small
Knick Pride 5.0: Spread the love
Ed-in-chief_small
Updated Knicks Pride 4.0: The funny and derpy!
Ed-in-chief_small
Updated Knick Pride 3.0: Eye candy for the ladies (Men, enter at your own risk)
Small
Coaches, systems and depth... 2012 Playoff lessons to learn...
Hudson_river_relaxin_small_small
Gathering Nominations for Best Proposed NY Trade this offseason
Small
Ridiculous Knicks Trade proposals Pt. 1

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >