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Top 15 Point Guards in the NBA

There isn't shit to do or really talk about in the NBA, and Posting and Toasting has been fairly quiet for awhile. So, like many other basketball websites do during the summer, I thought I'd make a Top 15 for each position. With 30 teams in the league, I figured 15 is a good number to represent the top half. Hopefully these lists piss off some people and spark some debate and get some good discussions going.

First up: Point Guards.

Star-divide

1.) Chris Paul: This is a little tough to do, because frankly, he's had two back-to-back, somewhat underwhelming seasons. However, we all saw what he can do in the playoffs against the Lakers. The dude was insane. Though his scoring and assists have been down, he rebounds phenomenally for a dude that might not even be 5'11", he's a great defender, and he's shot the ball so well for a PG his whole career. When he gets fully healthy and some not shitty teammates, he's gonna return to MVP status.

 

2.) Derrick Rose: Kind of another tough call, because I'm not a fan of his playmaking skills. Nonetheless, this dude was the MVP, surprised everyone this season, and led his team to the best record in the NBA. He's a highlight machine, arguably in the top 5 most athletic players, and one of the best scorers in the league. And while he's not a great playmaker, he still averaged 7.7 apg last season, and is improving his 3pt shooting.

3.) Deron Williams: Personally my favorite PG in the league. D-Will is a good shooter, a great playmaker and passer (maybe the best in the league), a solid defender and another good rebounder. Look who he played with in NJ after he was traded, and then comprehend he averaged just short of 13 apg there. Yeah, he's good. And once healthy and on a winning team, he too competes for the #1 slot.

4.) Steve Nash: Watching Nash play point guard is a thing of beauty. He sees everything on the court; every hole, path, and opening. He could probably average 20ppg if he wanted to, but he doesn't. He runs plays remarkably, and when he's in the zone, he makes the Suns' offense seemingly unstoppable. Yeah, he's old and sucks at defense, but he's just too fun to watch on offense to put him lower.

5.) Rajon Rondo: A lot of people here don't like Rondo, but he's damn good. Definitely a product of playing with such great players, but if anybody watched the Celtics' run to the Finals two years ago, he was a blur on the court. Crafty in every way, and though he can't shoot, he still scores decently, rebounds and passes very well, and has glue on his hands on the defensive end. He too needs to get fully healthy.

6.) Russell Westbrook: An up-and-comer for sure. Insanely athletic and strong. He absolutely needs to improve his playmaking and shooting, and he's not there mentally, but his athletic skills alone make him so dangerous with the ball. He kinda sucks at playmaking, and he still averaged 8 apg. Give the kid 2-3 years and he could be the best.

7.) Jason Kidd: It gets a little foggy here, but he just led a team to an improbably championship at 38 years old. He's capable of scoring well more than I think he even realizes. He's deadly from downtown, and just a great playmaker. Oh, and he guarded Kobe, Westbrook, Durant, Wade, and Lebron and got the best of all of them.

8.) Tony Parker: Getting old, he's injury-prone, kinda soft, inconsistent, and still a winning player. He can still go for 20 points on any given night, and just shot a career high from 3pt range at 35%. He also shot nearly 52% FG, which is great for a PG. And he averaged nearly 7 assists per game. He and the Spurs might still have one more run in them.

9.) Stephen Curry: Based mostly on upside, Curry's a dynamite shooter, who can hit an open teammate, and seemingly play fastbreak basketball and halfcourt basketball. He's not a winning PG yet, but he could be one of the best in years to come.

10.) Chauncey Billups: Chauncey is a big question mark next season. Nobody knows how we'll perform. Immediately after the trade, he lit up NY with some great scoring games and ran the offense so well. But he's old, slow, and injury-prone. If he stays healthy and learns the system, he might prove to be better than he's ranked here.

11.) Raymond Felton: This feels somewhat ironic that he's right after Chauncey. Ray had a great half-season here, at his best averaging 19 ppg, 4 rpg, and 9 apg. He's one of the toughest PGs in the league. His decision-making is questionable as is his shot, but he's shown flashes of All-Star material, especially when he gets adjusted to his team.

12.) Jameer Nelson: Nelson is wildly inconsistent, but he still has times where he can absolutely take over a game (he did it against us). He should average a lot more assists than he does, especially playing with Dwight, but I think despite that, he's still a good playmaker. He can hit the open shot, and when he gets in a groove is one of the best.

13.) John Wall: I might come under fire for this, but playing on a shit team, in his rookie season, Wall averaged 16 points and 8 assists per game. He's so strong and athletic, and from end-to-end, one of the fastest I've seen. Definitely needs to work on his jumpshot, but that's easy enough. Give this kid a few years and a good team, and he could dominate.

14.) Mike Conley: Just signed a fatass extension, and then had his best year yet. H'es quick, not a bad shooter, and a good playmaker. He's only 23, and is on a young team that could be developing into one of the best in the West. I don't think he has potential to be an annual All-Star, but he looks like a leader for the future, and played well when it counted in the playoffs.

15.) Jrue Holiday: This last spot came down to he and Andre Miller. I chose Jrue for his upside and age. He's a young PG on what appears to be another up-and-coming team. He's a good shooter and passes the ball well. He also is a good rebounder at 6'4", and bigger PGs tend to fair well in this league.

Honorable Mentions: Andre Miller, Ty Lawson, Devin Harris, DJ Augustine, Jose' Calderon

That was very tough to do, and I'm still questioning myself about some of the dudes that I left off, but oh well. If you don't like it, comment about it! I'll do the other 4 positions in the upcoming days, though I don't know exactly when.

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Comments

Display:

I'm on the Chris Paul >> Deron Williams train

I don’t see how Williams is the better passer at all. Even playing in the super-structured Jazz offense he turned the ball over a lot more. Chris pretty much free-reigns and averages like no turnovers. Some people say that’s because all he does is pick and roll, but I say that’s garbage, he can find guys in the open court just fine and he’s also better at initiating the offense. He used to run the fast break perfectly too.

Maybe Williams is the better shooter, but Paul’s midrange shot is deadly these days plus he’ll hit the open three.

Anxiously awaiting the day my username will be appropriate

by knickswin on Jul 21, 2011 1:11 PM EDT reply actions  

I actually think the opposite

At least based on statistics, CP3 is a better shooter. I actually didn’t even realize how efficiently he shoots until today when I looked at his career stats. Though D-Will is probably more of a pure scorer, Paul shoots better.

But Deron’s assist numbers are really good, dude. I mean, Paul at his best a few years ago is clearly better. But considering the scoring Deron does, and that Paul just hasn’t been etirely the same, I think Williams is the better passer. 12.8 apg in NJ?! Who was he passing to?! Brook, Anthony Morrow, and Travis Outlaw? That’s pretty legit.

by WSD on Jul 21, 2011 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Paul hasn't been entirely the same

Since all of his injuries the last couple years*

by WSD on Jul 21, 2011 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Paul's not the same breaking guys down and getting to the rim

but two of those games against the Lakers were crazy-good. He dominated those games as much as a little man possibly could. I’ve never seen Deron even approach that. I think Paul sees the court incredibly well and is a master at controlling the pace of the game.

Those 12 games in Jersey are a very small sample size and Deron was also shooting terribly and their record was crap (I think 4-8). I kind of suspect there was some finagling with the assist numbers as well because the way assists are tallied is pretty arbitrary and it’s weird that his assists jumped to 3 above his season average on a team with less structure that he wasn’t familar with. One of his big assist games was an away game and the rest were at home. Jersey seems like the type of club to do that. You hear about that going on a lot around the league, I think Boston does that with Rondo too and I always heard John Stockton got that treatment. I actually think Ray Felton got that treatment while he was with us.

Anxiously awaiting the day my username will be appropriate

by knickswin on Jul 21, 2011 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's kind of a stretch

To discredit someone on a flimsy suspicion that the scorekeepers were finagling with his numbers. It is an odd thing to jump so high when going to an inferior team than the Jazz were, but I think its more because was shooting less because of his wrist. He did shoot terribly, but that’s a different story.

I’d personally rather have D-Will than CP3, but I can’t act like Paul is not better. I mean, D-Will’s had some dominant performances, particularly against the Lakers in the playoffs, but not like Paul did. Chris is better, but I still think Deron might be a better passer. Particularly when he had good options under Sloan in Utah

by WSD on Jul 21, 2011 3:38 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

yeah I know

but I just read an article about how scorekeeping is kind of BS in the league, particularly for assists and blocks. Is Raymond Felton handing the ball off to Amar’e and then Amar’e driving to the basket really an assist? I don’t think so, but I think it was often counted as one. Jersey is desperate enough for me to think that they’d be a little lax in their standards for what counted as an assist for their shiny new point guard.

I just don’t see Deron as a better passer. He forces the issue too much and sometimes breaks up plays.

Anxiously awaiting the day my username will be appropriate

by knickswin on Jul 21, 2011 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Actually New Orleans has a bit of a reputation as an assist-friendly place

Darren Collison had a 20 assist game there that Hardwood Paroxysm worked out as only being 14. No idea whether this has ever applied to Paul, but there’s a history there and with NJ and Deron there’s only speculation.

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jul 21, 2011 10:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

it's rampant speculation on my part

but it just seems a little fishy to me that a brand new point guard would come in and average double digit assists right off the bat.

I never go by assist numbers anyway, once you’re up around 10 it really doesn’t make much of a difference. Steve Nash will always be a better passer to me than John Stockton no matter what the stat sheet says.

Anxiously awaiting the day my username will be appropriate

by knickswin on Jul 21, 2011 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

this is the article I read on this subject

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123855027541776617.html

My man Steve Nash averages fewer assists at home than away, that’s telling

Anxiously awaiting the day my username will be appropriate

by knickswin on Jul 26, 2011 1:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

The home team counts assists and other statistics

There are guidelines, but really it’s a judgement call. I wouldn’t put it past any team to boost their stats a little bit. Maybe this is homerism as well, but I’d put the Celtics at the top of the stat-boosting list and the Knicks at the bottom, although that 22 assist game by Duhon was pretty suspicious.

In sum: sports statistics are useless.

by superturboultra on Jul 23, 2011 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

The 22 assist game by Doo Doo was legit! LOL

If anything he probably got cheated out of a couple of assists that night. But stat padding does not happen as much as it use to bad in say Clyde’s day, because while the scorers work for the individual teams, their stat sheets are verified by the league, which did not happen back in the 60s and 70s. We have seen where after games guys will have rebounds, assists, and sometimes even field goals taken away or added, because somebody in the league office back checked an official scorer. It is one of the few things for example that the NBA does better than major league baseball.

by Robert Curre on Jul 25, 2011 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Paul>Williams

However CP3’s injuries and possibly his size will begin to hinder him as he gets older I would think. Today though he is def #1 pg in the league.

by Mr. 2 on Jul 21, 2011 8:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

agree'd

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by Lawrence Taylor The Real LT on Jul 26, 2011 1:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

I could see that

I put Rose above Williams because he’s such a dominant player right now, in more ways than just being a PG.

And I put Nash ahead of Westbrook because he’s head over heels better as a PG, and though Russ is more complete, I don’t see him as all that dominant yet where he overcomes Nash’s superior playmaking

by WSD on Jul 21, 2011 3:34 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

1. Paul
2. Deron
3. Westbrook
4. Nash
5. Rose
6. Kidd
7. Rondo
8. Wall
9. Parker
10. Curry

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jul 21, 2011 3:37 PM EDT reply actions  

Respectable list

Wall is a little high in my opinion as is Westbrook but cases could be made for all those.

Though I do think Rose deserves top 3. Even if you think Westbrook is better, D-Rose is still a dominant player in this league. I know you wanted Howard to win MVP, but in that case Rose would be runner-up and in my opinion, deserving of a top 3 slot in his position

by WSD on Jul 21, 2011 3:43 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Dirk was my runner-up, even before the playoffs

Nobody paid attention to him and the Mavs last regular season but he was outstanding even by his own standards.

Wall at #8 is admittedly somewhat speculative. He was held back last season by having one of the worst collections of teammates in league history, and his nagging injuries didn’t help, but at his best he was phenomenal and he should start making a case for top 5 as soon as next season.

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jul 21, 2011 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

I can dig that

Dirk is always somewhat slept on no matter how good the Mavs are.

And Wall has the potential to dominate for sure. His rookie season was kinda slept on too

by WSD on Jul 21, 2011 10:01 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

It was funny, Dirk was very high in MVP votes at the beginning of the season

and then people just forgot about him for whatever reason even though his team was doing very well with him. Dallas might have had the best record last year if Dirk hadn’t been injured for a stretch.

Anxiously awaiting the day my username will be appropriate

by knickswin on Jul 21, 2011 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah it's cruel - you get hurt, people forget about you

Durant, too. When he missed a bunch of time early on it didn’t matter what he did for the rest of the season – Rose had taken all his SportsCenter Top 10 spots.

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jul 21, 2011 10:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agree with your list except for one/two thing(s).

Take off Jameer Nelson, he’s an honorable mention… not top 12-15. Also Ty Lawson is better than him, Jrue Holiday and arguably better than Mike Conley.

by hvino on Jul 21, 2011 3:57 PM EDT reply actions  

To clarify. My list:

Same top 11 as you.
12. John Wall
13. Ty Lawson
14. Mike Conley
15. Jrue Holiday

Honorable mentions: Miller, Harris, Nelson, Lowry and Jennings.

The PG position is so deep that it’s crazy. That’s 20 really good PGs right there (including honorable mentions) and we still have Mo Williams, Jose Calderon, DJ Augustine, Kirk Hinrich, Darren Collison and the new rookies Rubio, Irving, Jimmer, Knight and Kemba (all of which will probably starter). That’s insane. It’s almost like there are more starting PGs than teams.

by hvino on Jul 21, 2011 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed

It was tough choosing the list and I probably should have put Jennings in the mentions. Lots of very good PGs.

My case against Lawson is that he hasn’t been a full time starter and even though he’s becoming very good and started after Billups left, Felton closed the games. Even when they played on the court together, Felton was the playmaker and Ty scored. I do think he is a very good player though and a guy to watch this coming season

by WSD on Jul 21, 2011 10:07 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

And yet we have Billups trotting out and jacking up 20 footers in transition…

by superturboultra on Jul 23, 2011 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Felton does not belong above most of the guys under him

Obviously Wall and Lawson are better. Lawson is better than Billups too. Lowry was much better last year but might not keep it up. Conley and Holiday are arguably better. Andre Miller, Jameer Nelson, Augustine, and a few others are all likely better too. Felton is like #20 or so.

by mindfeck on Jul 21, 2011 5:22 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

I respectfully disagree

Felton had a better season overall than all of them. I think he deserves top 15 for sure, 11 could be a bit high for him though.

Wall probably is better but hasn’t done anything yet and Felton has had some success so far so he’s still ahead. Augustine had a decent season on a shitty team so he doesn’t really belong

by WSD on Jul 21, 2011 10:12 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

better season in terms of?

Number of assists? D’Antoni can do that to you? Plus he played in two of the fastest paces, inflating numbers. I don’t know how you can say Felton has done more than Wall. It’s not Augustine’s fault that the Bobcats gave away all of their players.

by mindfeck on Jul 22, 2011 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah I mean his stats were better

But other than Conley, he was on teams that were better than all the guys you mentioned. I don’t know, I think Felton is a much more impressive PG than those guys at this point in their respective careers.

And no, it’s not Augustine’s fault, but it’s not Kevin Love’s fault that Minnesota sucks around him either. Same case for many other players. It’s just the nature of the game: you’re not gonna get recognized as a top performer if your team isn’t winning. It can be cruel, but it’s how it’s always been.

by WSD on Jul 23, 2011 12:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

I know it's not Love's fault

Love is great. They couldn’t win a single game without him at the end of the season. Not even one. Augustine played well last season. Going into the season, the Bobcats obviously missed Felton, especially since they didn’t add anyone, but that’s not a reason to say Felton is better.

by mindfeck on Jul 23, 2011 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Augustin is not better than Felton. Every single Bobcats fan feels like Jordan made a bad choice there.

Lawson and Felton are close, but I give the edge to Felton due to his superior scoring and defense. I actually liked when Denver had both out there at the same time, it’s quite a luxury to have Lawson as a primary playmaker and then Felton as the secondary playmaker and scorer.

by superturboultra on Jul 23, 2011 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

You've got that totally mixed up

Felton is a woefully inefficient scorer and Lawson is very efficient. And it’s really not even close. Felton on the other hand is a better playmaker and defender (the latter mostly because Lawson is so small).

by flossy on Jul 23, 2011 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah

But I still give the edge to Felton because George Karl would actually use Felton to be the playmaker and Lawson as the scorer. Lawson would bring the ball up, but Felton would be directing the offense and then eventually catch a pass and make a play.

Felton’s also a good leader and lockerroom guy. He’ll get in pretty much anyone’s face. He’s tough as hell, too. All those make him a better PG than the guys mindfeck said are better. However, give it two years and they’ll probably all be better than Felton

by WSD on Jul 24, 2011 1:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

So I do!

Haven’t watched a ton of Lawson, the Denver games I watched last season were mostly to see Felt do his thing, and I ignored the little guy.

by superturboultra on Jul 25, 2011 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

see reply above to why this doesn't mean Felton > Augustine

Also, Felton is quite inefficient at scoring. He was only above average the first half of last season, when the Knicks had great spacing and Felton got lucky. His PPG was high because of the pace.

by mindfeck on Jul 23, 2011 8:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

OK

Then why does Felton have a higher shooting percentage year after year? Like when they were on the same team?

by superturboultra on Jul 25, 2011 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Felton absolutely handled Wall

when they played at MSG this season. Wall kept turning the ball over and Felton played brilliantly if I remember correctly.

by YuckFou on Jul 24, 2011 2:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

Wall turns it over against everyone though . . .

Anxiously awaiting the day my username will be appropriate

by knickswin on Jul 24, 2011 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, he is a turnover machine

I remember it was something ridiculous like 11 or 12 that night with most of them coming from Felton. Why is Wall even on this list? I know, potential, but still based on his play last year he should have been put in the bottom 15.

by YuckFou on Jul 25, 2011 2:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

No he doesnt

He was runner-up ROTY and almost averaged a double double on a terrible team. I mean if you had to start a franchise with the guys left off the list or John Wall, who would you pick?

by WSD on Jul 25, 2011 12:50 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

A turnover machine seems like a silly investment

although if Apple rolled it out you’d see one at every table in every cafe

by superturboultra on Jul 25, 2011 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

the best players in the league

are usually among the leaders in turnovers. High usage = high turnovers.

"But when he saw it, he just put his hands up and they couldn’t give it to him. It just fell to the ground, I-I don’t, you know … So, that showed me he had great experience..." - Jeff Van Gundy

by Anthony Bonner's Subpoena on Jul 25, 2011 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah but Westbrook, Wall, and Rose are exceptionally turnover prone

it’s because they make some dumb decisions while passing. They all have the bad habit of making passes while in the air.

Anxiously awaiting the day my username will be appropriate

by knickswin on Jul 25, 2011 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wall averages fewer turnovers and has a better A/TO ratio than Russell Westbrook

… and this was as a rookie, on a shit team. Wall is and will continue to be a much better player than Raymond Felton, I assure you.

by flossy on Jul 25, 2011 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

man I keep forgetting Felton and Miller were traded for each other

weird…

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jul 21, 2011 8:11 PM EDT reply actions  

I might have to check out some Portland games this year

I’m kind of excited to watch them and I think Felton will fit in well. I know they drafted Nolan Smith but did they pick up that SF that Dallas drafted before trading for Rudy?

by WSD on Jul 21, 2011 10:09 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

I feel like Portland is too slow for Felton

his mediocre decision making might get amplified playing in the half court so much

Anxiously awaiting the day my username will be appropriate

by knickswin on Jul 21, 2011 10:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

They can and should speed up the pace next season

right now they’re stuck between identities – in one corner you have Felton/Wallace/Batum, in the other you have Roy/Oden/Camby – but yeah it’s an odd fit if nothing changes (and the coach is the same fwiw)

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jul 21, 2011 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah I think they should speed it up next year

Felton, Matthews, Wallace, Batum, and Aldridge all have the ability to move.

Anxiously awaiting the day my username will be appropriate

by knickswin on Jul 21, 2011 10:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Jordan Hamilton

No idea if he’ll pan out. Interesting talent at least. Nolan Smith was a total wasted pick, I can’t believe they made it.

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jul 21, 2011 10:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think Smith will be a good NBA backup one day

Jordan Hamilton is intriguing though, and between Aldridge, Wallace, Batum, and Matthews and hopefully Roy, they could definitely run and put up some points. And they’re decent defenders as well

by WSD on Jul 21, 2011 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Average NBA fan's appreciation for Nash is decreasing

for absolutely no reason. Steve Nash is the best shooter in NBA history, the second best passer in NBA history in my opinion, and he still holds the position as the NBA’s best point guard with Chris Paul and Deron Williams rounding out the top 3.

from there, we go:

4. Stephen Curry – amazing shooter and crafty play-maker. He has no ego like some point guards that will remain off of my list, and simply knows how to run a team. Has a chance to be a top 10 point guard of all-time.

5. Tony Parker – Many say that the sign of an excellent point guard is that he knows when to facilitate and when to pick his spots to score. Tony Parker, next to Steve Nash, has the best knowledge of this balance. It seems like every time he scores, it’s completely effortless and it’s just about taking what the defense gives him. He does what it takes to win.

6. Rajon Rondo – A lot of what I just said about Tony Parker carries over to Rondo as well. Rondo doesn’t care who does the scoring, as long his team comes out on top. He makes excellent passes and is fortunate enough to have some Hall of Famers surrounding him to reward him with those inflated assist numbers. He’s in the top 4 discussion if he could shoot jumpshots.

7. Jose Calderon – I’d like to introduce you to Steve Nash – lite. Jose Calderon is like a lower usage version of Steve Nash – he shoots similar percentages from 2PT range, 3PT range, and even the FT line, and he puts up excellent assist numbers – especially in regards to A:TO ratio. Jose Calderon can run any fast-paced offense with supreme efficiency. If I could trade Billups for him, I’d do it in a heart-beat.

8. Chauncey Billups – A player that has taken a very long time to develop into a good passer, but has always been able to drop bombs from 3-pt range. He’s extremely strong mentally and is an excellent leader, except he isn’t an electrifying play-maker and attempts too many 27 foot hero-shots. His defense has seen better days, but he’s still dependable.

9. Mike Conley – He made a huge leap in production and value last season and was a key part of the feel-good-story Grizzlies. He can facilitate an offense, is a respectable shooter, and can pick your pocket. He’s in a perfect situation in Memphis.

10. Jason Kidd – The old man of the group is an absolutely terrible shooter, but he puts up assists and just won a championship. I’d say he’s on his way out.

Honorable Mention: Raymond Felton, Kyle Lowry, Jrue Holiday, Jameer Nelson, Andre Miller, Beno Udrih, Ramon Sessions, Darren Collison, Ty Lawson, Eric Bledsoe, and, of course, C.J. Watson.

(yes this post is 100% serious)

by BJabs on Jul 22, 2011 4:17 AM EDT reply actions  

The post was serious

But were you high when you wrote it? I don’t have as much of an issue with your top 10 as much as I do some of your honorable mentions. Beno Udrih? Sessions? Bledsoe? CJ Watson?! Oh, I think you left off Ronnie Price!

And are the PGs with egos that you’re talking about Rose and Westbrook? Because their egos really aren’t that much of an issue. At least Rose is perfectly fine. Westbrook a little bit, but nothing that hurts his team, he just wants to be the man for OKC. They’re excellent point guards who are insanely athletic, terrific scorers, and despite their desire to score, still pass out 6-9 assists per night.

I also kind of have an issue with Curry and Calderon being so high. Curry’s a nice young PG, with a great shooting touch, and if surrounded by good players could become one of the best in the league. But he hasn’t done shit to be considered 4th best in the league. All he’s done is put up some nice numbers on a bad team. Calderon, has the skills of Nash-lite, and is definitely a good passer, but otherwise is inconsistent and soft, and again, really only plays for pretty shitty teams

by WSD on Jul 22, 2011 9:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

Here's a thought experiment

If Memphis and Toronto called up OKC and Chicago and offered to trade Westbrook/Rose for Conley/Calderon, would the Thunder and Bulls’ GMs literally die laughing, or just seriously hurt themselves?

by flossy on Jul 22, 2011 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

7. Jose Calderon – I’d like to introduce you to Steve Nash – lite.

I thought omitting Rose and Westbrook was ridiculous, but this took it to another level.

Anyways I see that “having ego” somehow makes you a terrible basketball player. Good thing Michael Jordan was totally selfless and didn’t think highly of himself or anything… oh wait. Leave your perverse fantasies out of it and don’t waste our time with this troll crap.

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jul 22, 2011 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

Calderon is an example of why Stats are sometimes overrated. Calderon puts up great stats

when he is healthy. However Calderon is not a leader on the floor, and that is more important that fancy behind the back passes when you are talking point guards. Not only would I not trade even an old and declining Billups for Calderon, I will go as far as to say Calderon could not hold Billups’ jock!

by Robert Curre on Jul 22, 2011 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

Calderon is an inconsistent shooter who can't drive inside the 3pt line

and on defense, he might as well stay at his own basket and cherry-pick while they play 4-on-5.

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jul 22, 2011 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

No reason?

His team sucks now, of course the average appreciation for his game is decreasing. That’s not his fault.

Also I think he was initially overrated in that everyone considered STAT a product of Nash. Now that we know it’s not true, his perceived value drops accordingly.

Also, Kidd is no longer an absolutely terrible shooter, and hasn’t been since his later days with the Nets.

by superturboultra on Jul 23, 2011 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Kidd is absolutely terrible as a shooter

Just because he makes many threes, people think he can shoot. No, he makes like 36% of his shots and under 10 points a game. He often doesn’t score at all.

by mindfeck on Jul 23, 2011 8:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

He often doesn't look to score

The dude will drive the lane for a layup and then make the tougher pass to another guy who’s cutting to the basket. He’s pretty reliable from beyond the arc these days, and he’s still got a little floater in that arsenal.

But regardless, he’s now a championship PG and did it in probably the toughest stage of his career. Not to mention he still pulls out triple doubles every now and then or at least hovers by them

by WSD on Jul 24, 2011 1:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

he makes a ton of 3s cuz he can shoot.

he’s not a spot up shooter, not someone you throw around some curls or anything like that. But to say dude can’t shoot when he’s made less 3pters then 2 people is asinine. Maybe that’s due to longevity, or maybe that longevity is due to the fact the dude is deadly from 3.

Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows

by Rorschach44 on Jul 24, 2011 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

He definitely isn't deadly from 3

He’s made a ton of threes because he’s been around a LONG time, and most of his shots are threes these days. If it’s between 35% from 3, or 40% from 2, he’s better off shooting threes. But come on, he’s on an elite team, rarely shoots, and still is awful. I think he was 0-8 at the game I went to and couldn’t do shit without Dirk.

by mindfeck on Jul 24, 2011 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think he was 0-8 at the game I went to

So he didn’t do good at the game you went do, so he can’t shoot. Cool story.

No one’s mistaking him for Reggie Miller, but nowadays he is a very good shooter. Since he’s been in Dallas he’s been over 40% every year except this one.

He most definitely is deadly from 3. He’s more of a streaky shooter, but either way he is a good shooter.

Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows

by Rorschach44 on Jul 24, 2011 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, he can't shoot period

And he’s especially bad when Dirk is out. Every time is shoots everyone cringes and expects the worst. That’s not the sign of a good shooter.

Obviously you can look at his numbers in addition to watching him play and see he can’t shoot. TV analysts say he is no longer “Ason Kidd” just because he’s made a lot of threes and TV analysts are morons.

by mindfeck on Jul 25, 2011 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

These are all empirical facts the way you wish things were.

by superturboultra on Jul 25, 2011 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Players who cant' shoot don't make shots

The guy’s shot 40% for a number of years and its not like he was attempting 2 3pters a game either, it was more like 4 or 5.

So this idea he can’t shoot is horseshit. Maybe he’s not a great shooter, but he must in fucking definitely can shoot.

Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows

by Rorschach44 on Jul 25, 2011 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

he can't shoot off the dribble for anything

but he can hit a set shot

Anxiously awaiting the day my username will be appropriate

by knickswin on Jul 25, 2011 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree with you he isn't a great

he makes a lot of threes, but he only takes them when they’re wide, wide open.

Anxiously awaiting the day my username will be appropriate

by knickswin on Jul 24, 2011 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

And that is absolutely irrelevant for a point guard

What Kidd does exceptionally well is run an offense and provide leadership on the floor. Those are the two most important skills needed at the point guard position. Give me a guy who can run an offense and be an extension of the coach on the floor over a guy who can shoot 48% from 3, but does not always get the team organized or provide leadership. There are certain positions where stats really do not tell the whole picture. There is really only one stat that matters as far as I am concerned for point guards and that is A/TO ratio. Guys who take care of the basketball are very important.

by Robert Curre on Jul 25, 2011 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Great post! i only have a couple of issues

Derrick Rose is not the second best point guard in the NBA. he really doesn’t do enough of what point guards need to do, which is get everyone else involved. Derrick Rose is a great player who happens to play the point guard position because of his height. He is clearly one of the top 10 players in the league right now, in my book anyway, so yes he had to go somewhere on this list, but if it is about who are the best players at the point guard position then fine, but if it is about who are the best guys at doing what a point guard is supposed to do then no he is not the 2nd best point guard. Rose and Westbrook have essentially the same game, Rose is just better at it than Westbrook.

Other than that I would have put Williams first, but really because if I was a GM right now and I had the choice between Williams and Paul I would chose Williams because he is bigger, stronger, and more durable and thus a better risk over the course of a 5 year deal. But if I was looking for a point guard to run D’Antoni’s offense then I would take Paul because while Williams could adpat to it and put up good numbers, Paul is tailor made to run D’Antoni’s offense. But that is just me nitpicking.

by Robert Curre on Jul 22, 2011 11:53 AM EDT reply actions  

Rose and Westbrook have essentially the same game, Rose is just better at it than Westbrook.

Except for the “defense” part, which apparently doesn’t matter whatsoever when talking about Rose and Westbrook, even though it is the lone metric used to determine which teams win championships by hordes of undiscovered genius fans

Congrats on winning your first NBA championship, Peja Stojakovic!

by The Rooster on Jul 22, 2011 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

True but when people talk point guards they tend to look at offense

If we were ranking these guys by defense, then the list would look very different.. My point basically, is Rose is not a great point guard, he is a great player who happens to play point guard, and there is a difference. If Rose was 6’6 instead of 6’1 would he even be playing the point? probably not.

by Robert Curre on Jul 22, 2011 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

He's pretty similar to Wade when you look at it

There’s also the miniature Lebron comparison, but I think Rose is too crafty and agile to be compared to Lebron. He’s similar in stature to Wade, and I think his assist numbers are more similar to Wade in that he gets them from having the ball in his hands and drawing in the defense, whereas Lebron can be a legitimate playmaker.

Anywho, I put Rose at number 2 for a lot of what you said. He is just a guy that plays PG, but he’s so dominant scoring the ball, and his presence on the court is so strong that he had to be up high on the list. Add in the fact that he still does get 7-8 assists a night in an unimaginative offense, and yeah, I think he’s top 3 material.

I acutally said alot of similar things to you in your first post in this comment section. I would choose D-Will over Paul for all the same reasons for you. And I agree that something about CP3 just seems right in D’Antoni’s system, but I think people overlook how well Deron would be in it. I think Williams is more of a terror on the break because he’s so strong and explosive, he could finish alot of fastbreaks by himself. Having either one on the Knicks right now would be a nightmare for other teams

by WSD on Jul 22, 2011 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dominant scoring the ball?

Meaning taking the most shots because the only other option is Deng (kinda)? He’s not a very efficient scorer. Defense doesn’t matter that much at the PG.

by mindfeck on Jul 22, 2011 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah

What does it matter how he scores? He fucking puts the ball in the hoop and his team wins games. People can’t stop him, and his team was only stopped 20 times in the regular season, and they made it to the Eastern Conference Finals. So yes, he was dominant at scoring the ball

by WSD on Jul 23, 2011 12:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

Their offense was mediocre

Defense won them games. So no, his offense isn’t what won the team games. People stopped him pretty often.

by mindfeck on Jul 23, 2011 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, they're defense won them games

But you still gotta score more than theopponent. And they were seldom stopped in that regards. 45% FG for the amount of shots he takes and the shots he has to create for himself is pretty damn impressive.

I get what you’re saying, their offense was pretty shitty, but regardless you have to score and he did it and wasn’t stopped. And for the times he was stopped…. they lost. However, they did that less than any other team in the league, so he’s a dominant scorer.

Just so you know, you don’t have to troll and disagree with every post in a thread. Just lettin you know

by WSD on Jul 24, 2011 1:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

i do disagree though

Obviously Rose doesn’t suck, and he’s a very good scorer, but if he can’t score, it’s his job to get the ball to other players. Rose=Westbrook, and they’re both worse offensively than Nash. Nash really got screwed by being on a lousy team.

by mindfeck on Jul 24, 2011 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

No other option?

The bulls have a ton of 3-point bombers, Carlos Boozer, and Noah (who’s at least good for the p&r). The fact that all of them seem to wither simultaneously is pretty damning for Rose.

by superturboultra on Jul 23, 2011 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Rose still took a ton of shots

while making about 45% and bad at threes. If he’s not getting them the ball, which happens because he’s not the best PG, the offense is trash.

by mindfeck on Jul 23, 2011 8:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think Rose has a couple of things on Westbrook

I think he’s better at finishing at the rim and has better body control, but the body control thing is almost a bad thing because Rose doesn’t go to the free-throw line as much as he should whereas Westbrook lives there.

I seriously hate the way the Thunder rely on free-throws so much.

Anxiously awaiting the day my username will be appropriate

by knickswin on Jul 22, 2011 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

I seriously hate that gaming the refs and the foul system in general has become so accepted that Rose's elite body control is always termed "almost a bad thing".

Fuck I hate that shit. Sorry. Just one of the worst things about the game for me personally, and reading it pop up on here in terms of Rose just pushed a button.

by GAx on Jul 22, 2011 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah it makes me so mad

I was getting pissed off in the Thunder-Mavs series because the Mavs ran a great high-post motion offense and were sooooo much better at generating good shots than the “stand around the perimeter and either ram in or chuck a three” (I’m sorry, but that’s the only way I can describe their “system”) Thunder, but the Thunder’s ability to go to the foul line kept the games closer than they should have been. In terms of quality of basketball played, that series should have been a blow-out.

Also, Carmelo has similar issues. He has such slick moves getting to the basket but almost gets punished for using them instead of lowering his shoulder and running over people like Lebron.

Anxiously awaiting the day my username will be appropriate

by knickswin on Jul 22, 2011 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

I hope that when the league finishes masturbating to all of the bad publicity it’s getting this summer, it takes a good look at the current implementation of shooting fouls. I think they’ve started, as evidenced by Kevin Durant’s scoring dropping in the playoffs (although ESPN is going to blame Westbrook, which is silly).

Faking a shot, having a guy jump out at you, and then initiating contact by jumping into that person is not offense. Neither is ramming the ball and your arms into your defender and then tossing up an airball because the shot had no chance at going in.

I’m tired of the offense abusing the rules because they don’t have any real moves. Of course, this would be great news for the Knicks – Melo, along with Derrick Rose, doesn’t draw fouls intentionally the way that Durant and Westbrook do.

by superturboultra on Jul 23, 2011 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

The thing is, and I hate to say it, we've got some floppers and guys who go for questionable shit all the time, too.

TD gets legit killed on most screens, but he’ll sometimes exaggerate the contact almost to a humorous point.

Amare does the Durant/Tim Duncan move where you catch the defenders arms with a low swoop of your own arms and then rise up for the entangled shot ALL THE TIME. Never seen him flop though.

Jared Jeffries…..JJDWJJD But DDIW.

by GAx on Jul 23, 2011 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

No it doesn't work,

Because he Doesn’t Do It Well

by GAx on Jul 24, 2011 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

Oh okay

I was kinda close.

And I agree, even though Amare’s the man, I hate that swoop move and draw a foul when the defender really wasn’t doing anything wrong. What’s he supposed to do? Leave his hands at his side? Refs reward that kinda crap and it makes it too easy for super stars to get to the FT line when they need points by pulling some bs move

by WSD on Jul 24, 2011 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

True

I want to watch basketball, not an arm-rubbing exhibition. If that means STAT needs to work a little harder, so be it.

by superturboultra on Jul 25, 2011 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

a great playmaker and passer (maybe the best in the league

what???
CP3 is the best. and i think by far

Dear fox.... Fire Aikman
Lebron james is a bitch
The new Prince of NY is here
Desean Jackson IS a punk
27 Going on 28 NYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
DJ3K!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
tony romo is a little bitch "oww my finger" <-- i took it down. they will never forget!!!!!

by Lawrence Taylor The Real LT on Jul 26, 2011 1:08 AM EDT reply actions  

This was discussed further up

But I’m still baffled at D-Will’s near 13 apg in NJ. It was only 12 games, and as discussed earlier, there may have possibly been some stat padding, but we don’t know that for sure. Somehow he averaged 13 apg playing with the Nets who are like the worst offensive team!

D-Will’s assist numbers have been upwards of 10 for the last 3 seasons, whereas CP3’s numbers have been mysteriously declining which isn’t a reassuring sign. When he was with Jerry Sloan in Utah, his system was based on lots of passing, and pretty much every player on the floor was a good passer. Lots of extra passes, screens, cuts, and the like. Often times he’d set up a player beautifully, only to have that player make the extra pass to a teammate for an easier shot. So he often made the “hockey assist”.

He probably isn’t best in the league, that’s still Nash, but then again, Nash plays in a pace much faster than what Deron ever really has. I don’t think D-Will is better than Paul, but I do think he’s actually a better playmaker or passer. Many would argue with me

by WSD on Jul 26, 2011 9:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

I wouldn't worry about CP3's fewer assists

a lot of that can be attributed to the team slowing the pace down and him having the ball taken out of his hands more.

Here are some numbers for the CP3-Deron debate according to 82games:
This year CP3 had 102 “bad pass” turnovers and 54 ballhandling turnovers
This year for the Jazz Deron had 112 “bad pass” turnovers and 53 ballhandling turnovers

So Deron had more bad passes and and just about as many ballhandling turnovers in 53 games on the Jazz than CP3 did in 80 games on the Hornets. I don’t like to rely on statistics, but this is just a tangible representation of what I feel like is a significant gap in passing ability.

Anxiously awaiting the day my username will be appropriate

by knickswin on Jul 26, 2011 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

well to be fair. those were 13 games.

CP3 has been hurt the past few years. Deron may be the better scorer than paul. but i think that Paul is one of the better passers in the last 15-20 years.
i feel like the last 13 games or so for Deron were deffinitley stat padding games.
while paul and the hornets were more concerned with the playoffs.
i dont think their is anyone in this league that is better at making the players around him better than CP3.
i mean look what he did with the hornets supporting cast.
imagine if he had stat and melo next to him

Dear fox.... Fire Aikman
Lebron james is a bitch
The new Prince of NY is here
Desean Jackson IS a punk
27 Going on 28 NYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
DJ3K!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
tony romo is a little bitch "oww my finger" <-- i took it down. they will never forget!!!!!

by Lawrence Taylor The Real LT on Jul 26, 2011 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well also look at what D-Will has done

He’s made the WCF before, and his best teammates he’s ever had were Boozer, Milsap, Korver, AK47, Matt Harpring, and Mehmet Okur. I mean, they’re definitely some great players, but he’s made them look a lot better than they probably really are.

I don’t know, maybe I haven’t watched enough CP3, definitely not as much as I’ve seen Deron. But I don’t know, I think D-Will comes across as a better playmaker, though not as good overall. Like I said, many people will disagree with me

by WSD on Jul 26, 2011 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

im not knocking deron's talents. i think he is a great player. but i dont think he is as great as paul

dwill imo. has had much better team-mates than cp3.
and yes dwill has made boozer seam much much better than he actually is. but cp3 has made his shit teammates look respectable.
i think you can make a case for dwill being the better scorer. but i think its no doubt cp3 as the best playmaker not only of point guards, but in the game. (when healthy ofcourse

Dear fox.... Fire Aikman
Lebron james is a bitch
The new Prince of NY is here
Desean Jackson IS a punk
27 Going on 28 NYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
DJ3K!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
tony romo is a little bitch "oww my finger" <-- i took it down. they will never forget!!!!!

by Lawrence Taylor The Real LT on Jul 26, 2011 9:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

eh, it's not really close to me as to who the better playmaker is

Paul makes the right decision so often it’s scary. You should watch more of him, he’s probably my favorite player in the NBA to watch. There are a lot of good point guards in the league and yet he somehow manages to be on another level than nearly all of them. His game is just so complete.

Although I do admit that he does flop a lot and plays kind of dirty (he sneakily pushes off whenever he drives)

Anxiously awaiting the day my username will be appropriate

by knickswin on Jul 26, 2011 10:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah

I saw his two main gems he put up against LA in the playoffs. Those were unreal. But whenever I’ve watched him against the Knicks he’s kind of a no-show, which is both disappointing and relieving. I’m sure I’d enjoy his game very much

by WSD on Jul 26, 2011 11:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

its a part of is future deal with the knicks.

stated in article 3 page 8 of his future contract

must suck in all games against you’re future team

ofcourse that contract was made in the walsh years. so who knows if its still valid.

Dear fox.... Fire Aikman
Lebron james is a bitch
The new Prince of NY is here
Desean Jackson IS a punk
27 Going on 28 NYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
DJ3K!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
tony romo is a little bitch "oww my finger" <-- i took it down. they will never forget!!!!!

by Lawrence Taylor The Real LT on Jul 27, 2011 12:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

yeah he had a hard time in the regular season

something was up with him, he looked uncomfortable. He seemed to be more ball dominant in the playoffs which suits his style better. It was probably for the better of his team too. I don’t think he’s entirely comfortable with having to look to score as much as he does in New Orleans to get his teams wins. Having Amar’e and Carmelo to take up the two biggest scoring burdens would help him a lot I think.

For the record, I do think his athleticism was affected by his injuries. You don’t see him blowing by guys to the rim like he used to and he never dunks anymore. He’s so skilled and so smart though that he was able to adjust his game to work at his new pace. Floaters and fade-aways in the paint are just as good for him now as dunks and lay-ups used to be.

Anxiously awaiting the day my username will be appropriate

by knickswin on Jul 27, 2011 2:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

i think within a year or two he will be back to his old form.

injuries will always have a lasting affect on a player (i’ve had some bad ones the past few years). but if you put in the work you can get back to doing the things you did before the injury. it just takes time

Dear fox.... Fire Aikman
Lebron james is a bitch
The new Prince of NY is here
Desean Jackson IS a punk
27 Going on 28 NYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
DJ3K!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
tony romo is a little bitch "oww my finger" (<-- Baby)

by Lawrence Taylor The Real LT on Jul 27, 2011 8:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

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