2012 Strategy
by YuckFou on Aug 21, 2011 2:37 AM EDT
Email
PrintWho should the Knicks target? There will be three elite point guard available and one elite big man. One of the elite point guards will probably play for a substantial discount. Sure, a lot could happen between now and the 2012 trade deadline but for me the obvious answer is to go after Dwight Howard and if we get him invite Steve Nash to come in and run the show. I think Nash would make himself affordable to be part of that team, and I think that team could win it all,
What do you think?
75 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Steve Nash, besides for Felton, is the only player that would be possible to acquire,
and, considering that the Knicks would be a lock to win the championship if he came to New York along with some cheap front-court help, yeah, I think the Knicks should target Steve Nash, the greatest shooter in history, the greatest pick and roll guard in history, a top 3 passer in history, and the man who knows D’Antoni’s offense the best of any player. Not to mention, according to advanced statistics at 82games.com, Steve Nash is a top 3 defensive PG in the NBA. I would literally trade the entire team minus Amar’e and Melo for Nash.
We can’t afford it. No way each takes half of what Amar’e and Melo got.
If those two took less money we might be able to pull it off, but at their current salaries no way.
"Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."
LET'S GO RANGERS!!!
Would Melo and Stat
be allowed to renegotiate their deals to make room for Nash? I heard once that this is not allowed. Is it? Would they?
In the event of a union decertification
and the promised voiding of all current contracts we might be in better shape than ever vis a vis getting two more supes. Assuming that we kept the rights to our current players we could renegotiate Stat and Melo down to say $12-$14mil which should leave enough to get Dwight and Nash(at a discount).
Of course it all depends on the numbers that are finally agreed to and how restrictive the rules are pertaining to player movement. Dolan could come out of this smelling like a rose on the Melo deal if this were to happen.
according to advanced statistics at 82games.com, Steve Nash is a top 3 defensive PG in the NBA
LOL!! According to anyone with two functioning eyeballs who has ever watched him play, Steve Nash is a truly atrocious defender. I would love to hear what cockamamie stat has been cooked up to make Steve Nash an elite defensive PG. I like Steve Nash a lot, and I like advanced stats, be seriously, no.
This is a time consuming process since 82games doesn't take the time to list these things themselves, but
I will order every qualified PG who played 30+ minutes/game by their PER against (opposition production) last season.
Rondo – 12.6
Evans – 12.9
Rose – 14.2
Nash – 14.3
Miller – 14.8
Kidd – 15.1
D. Williams – 15.6/14.8
Parker – 15.6
Felton – 16.7/11.8
Paul – 15.9
Jennings – 16.3
Westbrook – 16.4
Billups – 17.0/17.3
Lowry – 17.2
Nelson – 17.2
Curry – 17.4
Conley – 17.5
Stuckey – 17.7
Harris – 16.7/20.9
Calderon – 18.0
Ridnour – 18.0
Udrih – 18.5
Augustin – 18.9
Holiday – 19.0
Wall – 19.5
Ok, so he was .1 away from being tied for 3rd best defensive PG in the league. I had not expected Evans to rank so highly in this metric.
How does Nash rank so highly in this stat?
It’s simple: Nash does everything he can to stay in front of his man and contest their shots. Whereas Chris Paul or Mike Conley gamble on defense by jumping passing lanes and leaving their men unguarded, leading to wide open jumpshots, Steve Nash does not take risks and instead focuses on staying in front of his man at all times. Gathering video evidence to back up what I am saying would be equally as time consuming as it was to compile that list, so I will leave that to the rest of you.
Just understand that the Suns were the team that got me interested in the NBA and I watched 95+% of their games from 07-10, which gave me a very good idea about Nash’s tendencies on defense, and was very glad to find a statistic that backed up what I had been thinking about Nash’s defense all along.
Opon further review,
Tyreke Evans played 88% of his minutes last season at SG, and 8% of his minutes at SF, hereby eliminating him from the list above, moving Nash into 3rd in PER allowed for the 09-10 NBA regular season.
Okay, you need to reality-test
PER-against is not a one-size-fits-all stat that can be used to rank defensive performance. What’s more likely—that Steve Nash, who is known around the league as a poor defender even by his supporters, is secretly a much better defender than Russell Westbrook, Raymond Felton, Kyle Lowery, Jrue Holiday etc., or that this statistic is totally correct?
Look at the outliers on that list—Jrue Holiday is the 2nd worst defense PG in the league? I don’t think so. Raymond Felton played the best defense of any PG in the NBA after being traded to the Nuggets? Again, hell to the no. Tryeke Evans is an elite defender…? Umm…
Carmelo was also apparently elite before the trade, subpar defensively after
Oh, and Ty Lawson isn’t good defensively. Nash has a good PER against because he guards bad offensive players. Plus, the Suns D was so bad that the opposing PG most likely passed to other open guys.
Ty Lawson has a good opposing PER, and Carmelo did, because the team had a good D, so everyone had good numbers. When Carmelo’s or Lawson’s guy blew right by them, there was excellent help defense.
There are 0 outliers on that list, in my opinion
When you consider both system (Rose, Felton in Denver, Rondo, Jennings) and genuine defensive ability (Williams, Nash, Miller, Kidd), everyone is placed in this list right about where I’d expect them to be.
The hardest thing to do on a sports blog is to fight against reputations and ingrained opinions of players and make people look at a player from a different perspective. When literally 99% of everyone thinks the same thing about a player, I know it’s hard to disagree with them and think something different, but I simply do not let ‘strength in numbers’ win out in these kinds of debates. I have my own observations, my own statistics, and my own ideas that I will continue to stand by.
a 30 min/game limit wasn't mentioned
Plenty of backups are better at D. Also, Nash gambles the least, which may prevent his guy from scoring a bit, but doesn’t help the team D that he forces no turnovers. He rarely fouls, and he usually guards the weaker guard.
And one more thing about Nash
His opposing PER was over 15 in 2010, and over 17 in 2009. So do you think he suddenly became a good defender last year? Most seasons he was among the worst defensive players on the team. And of course you need to think logically about the stat, because even if Matt Barnes has an opposing PER of 19, he usually guarded guys who would otherwise have a PER of 25.
It probably helps that Nash someone finally has some behind him in Gortat
who can step up to contest the players who blow past Nash like he’s a traffic cone.
he had shaq and amar'e in the past.
Maybe his number looked better this year because it was so easy to score on Vince Carter, Aaron Brooks, Channing Frye, and Robin Lopez.
Amar'e was hardly intimidating
and Shaq was pretty old by the time he was in Phoenix. As far as being a defensive backstop, out of all three I know who I’d prefer.
What is the Salary Cap $100 Million.
Dwight Gets a max deal, even if Nash signs for vets min, the Knicks do not have enough money to even put together a full Roster.
by Robert Curre on Aug 22, 2011 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions
As long as we trade all of our young, good players for him, who cares who it is.
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
especially when
they’re not that young or good
"But when he saw it, he just put his hands up and they couldn’t give it to him. It just fell to the ground, I-I don’t, you know … So, that showed me he had great experience..." - Jeff Van Gundy
by Anthony Bonner's Subpoena on Aug 21, 2011 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Good is questionable, young is not
We’ve got some very green players on this roster.
by superturboultra on Aug 21, 2011 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions
that would be a good thing tho
but we all know the Knicks don’t give a shit
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
Do you really think that guys like Shump/ Landry/ Douglas (and maybe Jerome) are good enough to warrant not trading for a superstar like Dwight or Paul?
I love our young guys, but they really aren’t anything special… Landry and Toney are never going to be more than solid role players and Shumpert could be a good starter or a complete bust. But I don’t think it matters because it’s doubtful that Orlando or New Orleans would even accept a trade around Billups + Turiaf + 2 or 3 of the young guys for superstar + bad contract… If we’re getting one of them, it will be in free agency, so we should be able to keep our young guys (unless there’s a hard cap that isn’t flexible or is really low like under $60 mil). And since Landry’s cap hold is so low (around $1.5-2 mil I think), we’ll able to keep his rights and sign a big name (if the cap isn’t low obviously) and then turn around and re-sign Landry to a pretty good deal. If you don’t believe me, look at what Miami did with Joel Anthony, it’s literally the same exact idea. They never renounced his rights (b/c his cap hold is so low like Fields’) and re-signed him after their big moves. Then again, none of this can be seen until we see the new CBA.
What do you filll a roster out with.
The owners have made it clear 62 million hard cap. Now you can sign Dwight, but then you do not have enough money to Keep Landry and even fill out the Roster to the minimum of 12. The owners will get their hard cap it is a matter of when not if. WE need to face reality folks, when Melo got his extension right beofre a lockout where the owners would rather say fuck a season than not get the deal they want, the idea of 3 Superstars on the Knicks went out the window.
by Robert Curre on Aug 24, 2011 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Trading someone isn't betraying them. It's not like we took the money out of his pocket and sent him away.
He signed a contract with us and we have the right to do whatever we want with him after that contract is signed. And it’s not like we sent him to Minnesota or Toronto… we sent him to a playoff team (who sent him to another playoff team).
Loyalty is almost non-existent is sports now. The only loyalty I’ve seen recently is Haslem with Miami and maybe Nash with Phoenix. Seriously, if a player sees a better situation, he’ll leave his team as a FA and go there. And if a team sees a trade that makes them better they won’t hesitate trading a guy. Seriously what does CP owe New Orleans? Yeah they drafted him, that doesn’t mean he has to stay there his whole career. It also doesn’t mean he should be a dick about leaving like LeBron, but whatever. Same with Dwight and any other free agent or soon to be free agent.
He was pretty pissed at being traded and didn't hide it
Moreover, everyone knows the Knicks would not hesitate to ship him out yet again if they thought he could be flipped for a shinier piece, so why would he bother coming back? If loyalty doesn’t exist in sports why would Raymond Felton feel any residual loyalty to a an organization that signed him as a free agent that traded him at the earliest possible opportunity?
Well that's kinda what I said in my comment.
My point is that ppl should stop hating on guys for leaving as free agents and teams for trading away players, it happens to much in the NBA for it to be seen as a negative.
I'm just saying
he’s not re-signing here, and that’s why.
He said he felt betrayed
I don’t think trading people is always betraying them. Although, naming someone a co-captain, telling him he’s the PG, and then acting like Chauncey Billups is better? That’s cold, so I get his anger.
yeah
he came here on a very good contract for the team, was put in a leadership role and told he had time to prove himself, then was shipped out for an aging pg that doesnt fit the system.
I was pissed for Felton, the knicks did him wrong.
I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."
Like the really funny uncle with a healthy bourbon habit who matches every brilliant Thanksgiving story with one or two ill-advised racist jokes or boob grabs, we’re stuck with Melo. So we might as well learn to love him — quirks and all. http://knickerblogger.net/2011-report-card-carmelo-anthony/
I still think there's a small chance
we could see Felton again. I hated losing him.I know he is pissed but life goes on and harsh feelings mellow. Never say never.
About Deron Williams
My brother just met him in Puerto Rico. He asked Deron for his autograph but was told “I’m way too drunk.”
Good, now that we have blackmail fodder
We force Williams to sign with us for the vets minimum.
if this was to happen
I’d attempt to split the cap between Marc Gasol (could come a bit cheaper due to the amount of options available) and RayRay, and depending on cap I’d try getting Gallo (RFA) and Wil back to fill too.
Felton
Chandler
Melo
Stat
Gasol
Shumpy, Gallo, Landry and a random big off the bench
i don't want the rest of the league to tilt our perfect game.
/// aighttho.com \\/// twitter.com/aighttho \\
You guys are dreaming.
The knicks cannot afford a Max contract at all. Dwight Howard would want a Max deal. Now if the owners get what they want, then in 2012 there will be a 62 million dollar hard cap. The Knicks would be 18 million under that cap for 7 players. A max deal for Howard will be about 15 million. That leaves 3 million for the Knicks to fill 7 roster spots. hardly money to go steve Nash shopping. The Knicks couldn’t afford Roger Mason Jr. on that remaining budget. So if the Knicks are shopping for a point guard, they will have to go get a guy like Rafer Alston, because he has been out of the league, he can be signed for less that veteran’s min.
The way the cap works is that you can go over it to sign minimum FAs or re-sign your own guys (if you still have their rights).
Also, if there’s a hard cap, we’ll see some adjustments like rollbacks or amnesty along with lowering of new contracts. And I’m sure we won’t see legit hard cap, if anything we’ll see a flexible hard cap that allows you to go over a certain limit (around $10 mil I’d guess) to fill out a roster with minimum guys and re-signing guys.
And I actually believe that if we had Dwight/ Melo/ Amar’e (one of the best front courts ever), Nash would be willing to sign for the minimum. It’s not like he’d be ring chasing and playing 10 minutes a game, he’d still see a huge role, but for much less money (and considering all the money he’s made and the type of guy he is, I can see him doing it).
But that’s just my thoughts. I respect your opinion and you can disagree obviously.
by hvino on Aug 23, 2011 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
That is not how a hard cap works and that is what we will be dealing with.
You cannot go over the hard cap. And believe me you will see a legit hard cap, why because the owners are willing to cancel the entire season to get it. You don’t get it, the owners idea for having more competitiveness and therefore boosting revenue, because if more teams in more cities are still in the hunt in March then more people in those cities will attend games, is the Hard cap. A hard cap will not keep a team like the Knicks from putting together two or three star players, but it will impact the quality of the role players they can put around 3 stars.
The difference between role players is greater than the difference between stars. You can argue that Carmelo Anthony is better than Kevin Durant or vice versa but the difference may be so small you really have to delve into deep statistical analysis and film study to figure it out. However it does not take that much analysis to tell you that Lamar Odom is better than Brian Scalabrine, even though both are essentially role players. So by making it harder for a team to have a Kobe, Gasol and a Lamar Odom coming off the bench for 9 mil, and forcing that team to replace Odom with a Scalabrine or Jeffries type player, sure LA still has two stars, sure LA will still win 50+ games but now a team like Minnesota or Washington because they have the money to sign a Lamar Odom may win 10 more games or so and possibly be in the hunt for an 8th seed in March. That will result in more fans who in past years would have given up on those teams by then going to games because they have a chance.
by Robert Curre on Aug 24, 2011 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions
I think the whole "competitiveness" thing is just PR
They want to pay the players less, period.
by superturboultra on Aug 29, 2011 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Dwigt would take care of our 2 glaring needs
a big body and defense……and he is pretty damn good offensively too and only getting better.
J✈E✈T✈S✈ JETS! ✈JETS! ✈JETS! ✈
Dwight*
J✈E✈T✈S✈ JETS! ✈JETS! ✈JETS! ✈
by SLAUGHTERHOUSE on Aug 22, 2011 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions
That is not the issue. NBA rules State that you must have at least 12 People on a roster
We could not afford to pay Dwight a max deal and come up with the necessary roster requirements. You guys are going to have to understand that the new CBA will put a serious dent in your superstar slurpage.
Under the old rules the Knicks could have signed Dwight, and say Nash agreed to take the remaining 3.7 Million. Then the Knicks could have used bird exceptions to sign Fields, Williams, and as many of the previous players as they needed to fill out the Roster. We will not be able to do that now. So if we want Dwight, then we are looking at either Shumpert or Douglas starting at the point and some D-leaguers for the bench.
by Robert Curre on Aug 22, 2011 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions
But that's only if we see a legit hard cap.
Odds are we won’t see a legit hard cap… players won’t accept that, especially not in year one… maybe a flex cap and work in a hard cap. Too many teams simply can’t survive with a hard cap. Dallas, Orlando and LA all have huge payrolls that wouldn’t allow them to get under $62 mil.
LOL! The players aren't running this show, the owners are.
This is not a strike it is a lockout and the owners are prepared to cancel the season, sorry dude the players will cave or go hungry.
by Robert Curre on Aug 25, 2011 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions
D.Williams
The answer to the 2012 Knicks is to get D.Williams.
The best all around PG in the game.
He will force Stoudemire/Anthony to play team defense along with doing his own job.
Even D’Antoni could not screw this up if he is still here.
O.J.Mayo in a trade for future draft picks is the answer at the two guard.
fuck that
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
by Rorschach44 on Aug 23, 2011 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions
best fit for Deron (imo) is Orlando
if theyre going to keep Dwight then Deron is their Golden Goose. even though you hate the knicks with all your might. dont expect us to get him
by blackhova on Aug 30, 2011 10:16 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
That goose flew out the window unless Orlando can unload a lot of contracts – Hedo and Arenas with 3 years left on their contracts are at the top of that list. Other than Jameer Nelson and Dwight himself, I don’t see anyone on their team who’s not overpaid.
by superturboultra on Aug 30, 2011 11:52 PM EDT up reply actions
It's simple economics.
I don’t see how anyone could chose anyone other than Dwight Howard.
Scarcity makes something more valuable.
True Dominating Centers are very very scarce.
Elite PG’s are… well, there are a lot of them. We’re living in the Age of the Point Guard, people. But regardless, look who were contenders this year… teams with big defensive rebounding centers.
It’s got to be Dwight over any point guard in the league.
SPEND ON BIGS
by StarksMiddleFinger on Aug 23, 2011 12:54 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
I love it when somebody brings sense and knowledge to an argument.
I couldn’t agree more, Dwight is by far my choice to bring in. Think about it, if there were a draft of every player in the league, he’d probably go #1. That says it all. But back to reality, I don’t think Dwight will last till free agency and I think he’ll be traded by the deadline, so that takes us out of the running, however if by some miracle Orlando doesn’t trade him and we don’t see some crazy low cap, I think he’ll be ours to lose (along with Nash possibly).
No 1?
Not in a chance in hell.
D.Howard has a great body to play in the NBA.
he does not have it upstairs betwen the ears in reagdrds to his B-Ball IQ.
Look how well he is done in orlando with talent around him.
Please already leave it alone.
Tell me something B.Griffin is not a better choice to start a team?
Dwight Howard over Blake Griffin all day.
Everyday.
Orlando’s talent? Otis Smith damn near Isiah Thomas’d that team.
True.
I’m glad he wasn’t fired on a knee-jerk reaction. People should be given an opportunity to fix their mistakes. But Otis’ hole is pretty deep. I don’t think he’ll be employed much longer.
Yeah Dwight must really suck since he couldn’t win a championship with all-star caliber starters like JJ (it took me 12 seasons to get on the floor) Reddick, Ryan (I cut my own hair) Anderson, Quentin (back pain makes me shoot bricks) Richardson, Chris (Can’t Do Du-Du) Duhon, and the stinking corpses of Vince (I’ve lost interest in b-ball) Carter and Gilbert (my knees are made out of synthetic plastics) Arenas.
Except for Jameer Nelson (who I’ve always considered to be slightly over-rated), and Jason Richardson (who is just getting old) Dwight hasn’t had squat.
He would definitely have a dynasty with an appropriate supporting cast.
SPEND ON BIGS
by StarksMiddleFinger on Aug 24, 2011 8:59 AM EDT up reply actions
Ah Yes...
It’s never good when a player’s contract is a bigger point of interest than their game.
SPEND ON BIGS
by StarksMiddleFinger on Aug 24, 2011 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions
whoa whoa ok too far
he is a key piece to orlando, like kukoc to the bulls, maybe overpaid but blame toronto
by blackhova on Aug 30, 2011 10:22 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Without reading any of the above comments.
I doubt howard will take a cut. CP may, Deron..im guessing wont. So imo, its Nash or CP who will be available to us. Paul will undoubtedly make plays. But nash has a better middy shot. Ill take CP any day all day with a proven season that his knee is good.
"they try to do what he do, and been where he's been, but they get folded in two.....he's the dude"
He came home with an 85 million dollar price tag attached.
that means there isn’t anymore money to do superstar nut hugging and slurping. The Knicks would be better served trying to find a Center for a good price.
by Robert Curre on Aug 29, 2011 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions
if we actually get a season
CP could be a reality, we still have Chaunceys 14 mil to trade for. if not then im all for Nash next year. DWTDD is the barbosa, Shumpy could be our Matrix, Amar’e would be our… Amar’e?? i kinda like where this is headed…
by blackhova on Aug 30, 2011 10:05 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Your trading Chris Paul for Chauncey Billups straight up?
Quick get yourself hired as GM of the Hornets and lets get that deal done, because no way in hell is any GM that is semi-conscious trading Chris Paul for a 35 year old point guard in the final year of his contract straight up. Not after seeing what the hell Utah Got for Deron Williams.
And I am not in for Nash even for minimum. Nash is a terrible defender and we need to start being consistent around here. We cannot continue to bash D’Antoni for his defense and continue to bring in players who do not play defense and expect the defense to get better.
For what we gave up to get Carmelo Anthony we actually could have pulled the following trades:
1. Gallo and Mozgov for Kendrick Perkins. Why Gallo is better than Jeff Green and Mozgov is a young Big with two healthy Knees, unlike Krstic!
2. Wilson Chandler and Anthony Randolph for Shane Battier. Are you kidding have you seen Randolph’s per 36? Morey would go crazy Jerking off over these two’s stats.
3. Raymond Felton and Eddy Curry’s corpse for Mike Conley and Tony Allen.
Three trades that could have been done which would have brought better defensive players to the Knicks. But we didn’t want those trades, we wanted offense not defense. Now we have enough offense, so we do not need anymore players on this roster who do not play defense. Period. Steve Nash gets anywhere near the Knicks and I will personally show up at the Knicks practice facility and go all Tonya Harding on both his knees!
by Robert Curre on Aug 30, 2011 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions
as much as i like Dwight Howard
and besides the obvious that we wouldnt be able to afford him, i dont know if i want him. its an either or for me, either dwight or Amar’e or either dwight or melo but all three? i jus dont see how it can fully work. a pipe dream yes but who doesnt get touches? who become the disgruntled distraction? whos going to request the trade where they’re the focal point of the team? i jus see a lot of bad before good with dwight. dont get me wrong im not saying he would be the problem, just things probably wouldnt pan out (ie: miami) and rumbling would commence. so with all that said i think Chris Paul would be the ideal choice, he doesnt need to score and could command the tempo, distribute and collect his Kardashian at the end of the finals… what? they dont hand out Kardashians after you win the finals??
by blackhova on Aug 30, 2011 9:56 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
I saw some euro championship highlights
and Chris Kaman looked pretty good and put some great numbers for Germany. He also could be more affordable than Marc Gasol. I’m thinking he might be a pretty good fit for us.
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Related FanPosts on Posting and Toasting
Related FanShots on Posting and Toasting
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
In Association With
Ball Don't Lie - NBA - Yahoo! Sport
- Larry Bird calls his Indiana Pacers “soft” following the team’s physical Game 5 loss to Miami
- Dexter Pittman’s elbow to Lance Stephenson’s throat is just one of three nasty hits in Miami/Indiana’s Game 5 (VIDEO)
- Behind the Box Score, where the Miami Heat split the Indiana Pacers in two
- Metta World Peace calls Mike Brown fat
- Tracy McGrady is in a Chinese beer commercial (VIDEO)
