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Around SBN: Russell Westbrook and Kevin Durant's Post-Game 5 Outfits

Knicks 85, Sixers 79: "We are already screaming, bro."

This line came from community member Branta after hearing Madison Square Garden's hype man request to hear the crowd scream, which was already happening in front of countless televisions and computers across the world tuned into this game. The Sixers were playing their third game in as many days, giving the Knicks an opportunity to take down one of the most impressive teams of this young season. Leading by as many as 17 at one point, however, the Knicks did their darnedest to make things interesting down the stretch. Carmelo Anthony, though, as he is wont to do (a lil' Seth vocab for y'allz), hit some huge free throws down the stretch and the Knicks ultimately won a defensive battle against the league's best defensive team.

I have some game notes after the jump, including the fact that Tony Battie, on January 11th 2012, dunked on the Knicks twice.

Star-divide

The Knickerbockers got out to a hot start offensively thanks to Carmelo Anthony, but that's absolutely not the story of the first quarter. Thanks largely to Iman Shumpert and Josh Harrellson, the Sixers could not buy a bucket and finished the quarter with 15 points. Subjectively, particularly against a fast break team like Philadelphia, the first quarter sets the defensive standard for the season. Coincidentally, Shumpert and Jorts had delightful offensive quarters as well, Jorts hitting from long range while ShumpShump did his damage closer to the basket. In particular, Shumpert had a Melo-esque looking drive from the wing during which he executed a spin move and banked a one-handed fade-away in for two points. This kid is so, so talented.

The second quarter gave way to some occurrences that would have been pedestrian a year ago today, but are now the rarest of happenstances: Toney Douglas splashed a wing three pointer and Landry Fields drove, stopped and popped from about 12 feet away and hit the shot. Other than that, Mike D'Antoni decided to rest both Shumpert and Anthony at the same time for a stretch, seemingly to teach the Knicks' fanbase a cruel lesson on the dangers of shot clock violation (the offense stagnated and started to smell like month-old Italian Wedding soup).

The second half started nicely. Shumpert didn't have a great shooting night, but his first two possessions saw him hit the exact same 18 foot jump shot, from the exact same spot on the floor, consecutively. Hitting the same spot twice shows consistency if it shows anything, so I found these possessions encouraging. What I did not find encouraging, however, was his next possession. After being stripped by Jrue Holiday, Shumpert took the ball back up the court and immediately fired a retaliation three pointer, air-balling it (he claimed he was hit, but as Clyde was sure to mention: "don't they all?"). Sometime later in the quarter, the Sixers stormed back to get within two points of the Knicks before Carmelo Anthony decided to play one-on-one basketball for seemingly dozens of possessions in a row with mixed results. The Knicks ended the quarter up by 11 points.

The fourth quarter was not pretty basketball, guys and girls. The Knicks turned the ball over eleven times, squandered the lead accordingly, and won largely because the Sixers couldn't complete the comeback because they seemed exhausted. The main culprits in the comeback were Thaddeus Young and Andre Iguodala, the former of which scored every time he touched the ball for a solid three minute span. Ultimately, the Knicks wound up making more plays down the stretch, Carmelo Anthony hit some free throws to ice it, and the hometown good guys walked away with an important, albeit sloppy as shit, win.

Now, some individual player notes as well as some potpourri.

  • Carmelo Anthony scored 27 points on 24 shots, which is not very good. Despite popular belief, he did pass the ball enough to garner five assists on the night, which were nixed by his five turnovers. Throw in three steals, nine rebounds (which, coincidentally, is the exact quantity of rebounds by which the Knicks won the battle of the boards) and solid shooting from the charity stripe and you have yourself a pretty typical Carmelo Anthony outing.
  • Amar'e Stoudemire, much like Anthony, finished with a box score almost identical to his typical output. He still doesn't seem to be totally comfortable shooting his patented 18-footer, but made up for it by making some nifty six-ish foot leaners and fadeaways. Stoudemire did not record an assist. I wish I could remember more about Stoudemire's night, but overall I'd say it was pretty unremarkable aside from its relative efficiency, which contrasted starkly with Anthony's willy-nilly launchery.
  • Tyson Chandler played a pretty awesome game despite scoring a mere three points. Like Stoudemire, Chandler did not record an assist, but his 13 boards were a game high and he played solid defense while only fouling twice (which was actually a team-wide phenomenon. The Knicks, particularly in the first half, hardly fouled at all, opting to play defense with their legs rather than their arms. More on that in a bit.). Additionally, Chandler's offensive rebounds seemed all to come within the last several minutes, helping the Knicks to lop precious time off the clock to seal their victory.
  • Chandler was also flagrantly fouled by Tony Battie of all people, smashing his nose and causing it to cry red. This was the most confusing part of my day because I had just cooked chicken during halftime and was getting set to eat it when I decided to have some Sriracha sauce. I opened the bottle and went to smell it the sweet, spicy sauce, when some of it shot directly up my nose. Obviously this hurt like hell, so I ran to my bathroom and washed all the red spicy sauce out of my nose in time to return to the image of Tyson Chandler dripping red sauce from his nose too! Although his was blood and mine was sauce, I can't help but think one of us is a voodoo doll for the other. Because I haven't had countless major and minor foot and leg injuries, I'm going to assume I'm his voodoo doll and stay inside on game days. Also, if anyone can recommend a good book on how to cope with the realization that you're an inanimate object of witchcraft, just post it in the comments. It's for a friend.
  • Iman Shumpert looked reckless and feckless for much of the night, explaining his dismal shooting performance and 4/3 turnover/assist ratio, but good lord can this guy defend. One play in particular stands out to me. Sweet Lou Williams was dribbling the ball five or ten feet off the three point line when Shumpert started to absolutely terrorize him defensively. The hapless Williams, who is actually an excellent ballhandler, coughed up the ball. Shumpert then dribbled to his own three point line, waited for a streaking Amar'e Stoudemire to hit the paint before threading the needle to him for a dunkaroo. If you read about sports to any degree (and, if you've gotten this far in the recap, you do), you have heard the phrase "flashes of brilliance" about a million times. Iman Shumpert embodies that phrase, and I can't wait to see him stretch out those flashes into consistency on the offensive end. It's going to be something.
  • Landry Fields and Toney Douglas can share a bullet point. First things first: both players contributed to an excellent defensive outing by a team whose recent history has scarcely provided such events. Fields particularly defended well, stealing the ball thrice and doing a generally good job on his assignment. Douglas must have been good defensively because, frankly, the Sixers' guards sucked this game. Having said that, both were absolutely ghastly on the offensive end, Fields turning the ball over on two consecutive possessions while overdribbling, Douglas failing to record a single assist in 17 minutes of play. Douglas managed to come away with the best +/- rating of anyone in the game, but in my opinion he did not play an ounce better than he has been.
  • Bill Walker had a relatively unremarkable game, hitting a three pointer and snagging some rebounds.
  • Jorts Harrellson played himself a hell of a game, as previously mentioned. Despite only collecting a single rebound, he played spectacular defense off the bench and hit some big shots, scoring 13 points on ten attempts. While Tyson Chandler is certainly the defensive anchor for this team, I think Jorts deserves a lot of credit for refusing to allow a major defensive discrepancy between the first and second units (in terms of big men). For the first time in years, Knicks fans have a reason to eagerly anticipate the return of Jared Jeffries, as their trio of Chandler, Harrellson and Jeffries should form one of the best defensive units of big men in the league (that's phrased like shit, but I don't know how else to say it). What those three lack in shot-blocking, they make up with good old-fashioned position defense, and could do some damage (or, more accurately, prevent damage from being done).
Some other notes:
  • Noted Knick-killer Elton Brand went for 11 and 10, finishing a team-high +10 on the night. Based on recent history, this should be considered a resounding victory.
  • English: Andre Iguodala. Clyde: Andrear Iggo-Dollar.
  • Speaking of Iguodala, he played some great defense against Carmelo Anthony, even forcing him to travel by jumping in the air with the basketball and coming down to the ground, you guessed it, also with the basketball. Iguodala finished the night with two monstrous dunks as well.
  • Lou Williams, who leads his team in scoring despite coming off the bench, scored two points tonight. The last time he scored two or fewer points was December of 2010 against the Nets. Neat.
  • Evan Turner is getting grand at shooting jumpers off the dribble.
  • The Knicks didn't hit a FG in the last 9:01!
  • Nikola Vucevic was -19 in 12 minutes of play.
And there you have it. The Knicks won their fourth straight game bringing them to 6-4 on the season, and pulling them within one game of these division-leading 76ers. Although it was their third game in three nights, there is something to be said for holding a team below 80 points, particularly one that has started its season on such a feverish pace. Hopefully the Knicks can continue their defensive effort and use this win to build momentum.

We all miss you dearly, Seth. Come back soon! And remember, when ski racing: Go that way, really fast.

And finally, this recap is exactly 1776 words long.

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Great recap Seth! Oh wait, Osborn! Your recap is of such excellence that I couldn’t tell the difference

Thank you Clippers!
Great job LeChoke!

by DonMoosavi on Jan 12, 2012 1:46 AM EST reply actions  

DROP AND GIVE US 20!!!

__________________________________________________
"He who gets the best players usually wins" - Bobby Bowden

by Russ on Jan 12, 2012 9:07 AM EST up reply actions  

Nice recap, Osborn.

How fantastic is it that the Knicks have a shutdown defender?!

"It was one of those good, deep sleeps; you know, the ones where you wake up and a stream of drool is steadily racing down your shirt? Yes, that kind of sleep." -Landry Fields

by Thelonious Dunk on Jan 12, 2012 2:10 AM EST reply actions  

jorts might actually be the best of the lot...

he slides well, he stays on his feet, he doesn’t reach or grab and he knows not to try to block shots and instead uses his width and strength to make guys uncomfortable. a phenomenal steal.

by bucketsncents on Jan 12, 2012 6:52 AM EST up reply actions  

YYEESS

jorts fuckin jorts. Its like he was schooled by the best in how not to foul while being soclose he can smell his oppositions breath

"they try to do what he do, and been where he's been, but they get folded in two.....he's the dude"

by semsemma on Jan 12, 2012 8:52 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

He has fantastic footwork on defense

I think its a function of being an undersized guy compared to the lanky guys he’s guarding. He had to learn all the tricks and be quick on his feet. He’s the kind of guy you don’t want guarding you.

by The Monsieur on Jan 12, 2012 10:10 AM EST up reply actions  

he also isn't about the glory of a blocked shot...

the guy just wants to make it as tough as possible for his opponent to score.

stay in front.

put hands up.

belly and chest into his opponents.

results.

jorted.

by bucketsncents on Jan 12, 2012 4:53 PM EST up reply actions  

what's been up with amare and that elbow jumper

that thing was money last year, and now it’s only bricks.

also, HE NEEDS TO LEARN HOW TO PLAY DEFENSE . . . if we are going to play in the half court now, his bad defense becomes even more of a liability. for such an athletic guy, he looks so flat footed and stiff on that end of the court.

Anxiously awaiting the day my username will be appropriate

by knickswin on Jan 12, 2012 2:11 AM EST reply actions  

I think his jumper is suffering from the weight he put on over the summer

And I remember one great defensive series where Amar’e got switched onto AI9, & defended him very well…now of he can do that more often, I’ll be happy

@therealzlander

by zlander on Jan 12, 2012 2:24 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

i don't understand why amare put on that weight . . .

unless he is planning on asserting himself down low more and working on a post game, he’s probably better off being lighter. i think you’re right about the muscle affecting his shot. it’s always bricks which means he’s putting too much on it.

Anxiously awaiting the day my username will be appropriate

by knickswin on Jan 12, 2012 2:30 AM EST up reply actions  

ive been saying it since preseason

Hes slower. Less fluid. And compared to the energizer bunny from last year…he is on duracel.

Thiis is one player the lockout surely affected. He probably condition half as much as last offseason. (Although he WAS recovering from the back injury)

"they try to do what he do, and been where he's been, but they get folded in two.....he's the dude"

by semsemma on Jan 12, 2012 8:56 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Technically speaking...

the battery comparison doesn’t make sense, because Duracell batteries are much better than Energizer batteries. This is going off of info from the early 00’s, but Consumer Reports showed that Duracell batteries provided a lot more energy than Energizer batteries did. Even generic batteries that CR suspected Duracell made were better than Energizers (I think CVS brand was one of them).

But I do agree that it’s puzzling that a man with knee issues has decided to put on weight. That strategy simply did wonders for Greg Oden.

by urban analrapist on Jan 12, 2012 10:29 AM EST up reply actions  

yeah, part of him looking worse in the paint is the spacing too though

he doesn’t have fields, gallo, and felton standing around the perimeter. instead he has chandler right there and carmelo isn’t usually spotting up behind the line.

Anxiously awaiting the day my username will be appropriate

by knickswin on Jan 12, 2012 7:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Well

You’ve got to remember that before the Knicks got Tyson, a bulked up, center playing Amar’e seemed like a good idea.

Get The Frickin' Rebound

by fuhry on Jan 12, 2012 10:06 AM EST up reply actions  

I also thought

he did the bulking to protect his back

by The Monsieur on Jan 12, 2012 10:11 AM EST up reply actions  

it was to protect his back.

also, he grew an inch in posture. that’s probably also affecting the shot.

by mp987987 on Jan 12, 2012 2:00 PM EST up reply actions  

True

his shots are all 1 inch too high!

Get The Frickin' Rebound

by fuhry on Jan 12, 2012 2:10 PM EST up reply actions  

i think what happened was

he couldn’t do cardio for a while and then just kept with or slightly increased his normal weight routine and got too big.

Anxiously awaiting the day my username will be appropriate

by knickswin on Jan 12, 2012 7:17 PM EST up reply actions  

1776?

How patriotic of you lol

by bmanley620 on Jan 12, 2012 2:24 AM EST reply actions  

Thanks!

And I wanted to do it because they played the Philadelphia ’76ers. You know, 1776ers?

I’m cawny.

by Osborn on Jan 12, 2012 2:32 AM EST up reply actions  

A lot of people getting down on this win. Look at it for what it is - a great showing for a good team that still has some mistakes to fix

Except for some scary moments as we closed out the 4th, this was a good win and the Knicks owned it most of the way. Even as the 17 point league diminished they were able to stay resilient on defense and ride the clock out the way a good team is supposed to. The offense will keep getting better, to see the D improved so much is very encouraging

by SweatbandProliferation on Jan 12, 2012 2:26 AM EST reply actions  

I hope you're joking, SBP.

People shouldn’t be down on this win. This was the type of game that the Knicks MUST play on a regular basis in order to have a chance to make noise in the playoffs.

Also, winning has a learning curve. While these wins might have us biting our nails right now, we can hope that the experience the guys are gaining together will prove beneficial toward making future wins a little more routine.

by chin8tao on Jan 12, 2012 7:44 PM EST up reply actions  

ha!

i dont hate lebron at all, and have nothing to say about mr west, but I love the way the Clippers are handling themselves. The Heat surely gave that one away, but the Clippers kept themselves in position to take advantage

by mp987987 on Jan 12, 2012 2:03 PM EST up reply actions  

they lost the game on the foul line

you cant really argue that one. I don’t mean to take anything away from the clippers, because they did keep pushing, but failing at the foul line is giving it away

by mp987987 on Jan 13, 2012 12:24 PM EST up reply actions  

You can spin any statistical category to fit a predetermined narrative..

the Clippers shot more poorly than normal, the Heat overrebounded as a team. So the Heat poor FT shooting is not an excuse. Every statistical category in either a win or loss will reflect a deviation from the averages. Thats why they are called “averages.” Of course ESPN’s “Heat Index,” basically advocates your opinion. Otherwise, they wouldn’t exist.

by bababooey2 on Jan 13, 2012 3:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Man, Shump knows just the right things to say ALL THE TIME

I think Seth has described this phenomenon several times now, but it’s uncanny how perfect he is at it.

Here’s what he twat tonight after the game:

“Wasn’t pretty but we needed that #NYKallday”

“I try and play hard for NY as Jon Starks did bak in the day! It was super dope to have him at the game tonight #NYKallday off to Memphis”

And then he twat a photo of Jorts sleeping on the team plane and some dude giving him bunny ears.

What? Too awesome!

Do the Shumpty Shump, come on and do the Shumpty Shump

by DangerZone on Jan 12, 2012 3:19 AM EST reply actions  

whats his tag

"they try to do what he do, and been where he's been, but they get folded in two.....he's the dude"

by semsemma on Jan 12, 2012 8:57 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Here it is:

https://twitter.com/#!/I_Am_Iman

__________________________________________________
"He who gets the best players usually wins" - Bobby Bowden

by Russ on Jan 12, 2012 9:12 AM EST up reply actions  

Favorite part of the Jorts photo:

It looks like it was taken in the 1980’s and scanned in. Shump was probably using one of the cheap toy camera filters that are popular with hipsters nowadays.

by urban analrapist on Jan 12, 2012 10:32 AM EST up reply actions  

Also

What is with the upholstery on those seats?

by Joamiq on Jan 12, 2012 2:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Also read Christopher Hunt's post about Iman's growing pains on ESPN Knicks Blog

Shump said after the game, again, all the right things. This is another way he makes Amar’e look a younger version of Shumpty. He takes full responsibility for his collapse in the 4th, which wasn’t even that huge, and makes no excuses. AND he promises it’ll be better next time out. AND I love Shump.
http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/knicks/post/_/id/9495/shumpert-experiences-growing-pains-in-knicks-win

by mp987987 on Jan 12, 2012 2:08 PM EST up reply actions  

wasn't that huge in my opinion

He treats it like a real problem, as he should

by mp987987 on Jan 12, 2012 2:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Starks reference?

OK, make some room…. I’m officially on the bandwagon.

by chin8tao on Jan 12, 2012 7:48 PM EST up reply actions  

can't count how many times melo was calling for the ball in the corner...

and TD and shump forced it to him, seemingly afraid to wave him off and move the ball. that’s part TD/shump issue… and mostly melo issue in that he’s also not moving.

by bucketsncents on Jan 12, 2012 6:57 AM EST reply actions  

melo feels he cant be stopped in the 4th

So does pringles…and i belueve pringles said post practice interview that they would continue that plan of attack until teams become successful against it.

Thats old school, i like it. But we need to be morecreative in where he gets it. More movement. But if he can contibue to close like mj…..by all means.

"they try to do what he do, and been where he's been, but they get folded in two.....he's the dude"

by semsemma on Jan 12, 2012 9:05 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

oh yea...

LOVED how he had no problem passing out of the double. While Jorts made em pay for leaving him open. He is a big, defending, stretch 4. Gm is looking real smahrt right now

"they try to do what he do, and been where he's been, but they get folded in two.....he's the dude"

by semsemma on Jan 12, 2012 9:07 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Carmelo got pissy when they went away from him in the 4th too.

I really wish they’d figure out a way to get Amar’e involved in the 4th. I mean its not like he’s Lebron James or anything. Dude put the fuckin team on his back in the 4th last season. Why is he relegated to decoy duty?

Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows

by Rorschach44 on Jan 12, 2012 9:11 AM EST up reply actions  

Here's where Baron Davis can help

He’s not going to care if Carmelo gets pissy.

Get The Frickin' Rebound

by fuhry on Jan 12, 2012 10:10 AM EST up reply actions  

That's a good point

Shump and TD are much more prone to giving in to Melo I think. Plus I think Amar’e has been effected by the lockout, and once he’s up and going I think we’ll see more ball movement.

by JWurm on Jan 12, 2012 11:33 AM EST up reply actions  

Exactly. Right now nobody can run our offense well enough

to make an alternative to Melo-ball an effective enough crunch-time strategy. But Davis is a pro and should be able to keep the offense running through the fourth rather than be all “oh shit game is close um um um okay Melo”

by flossy on Jan 12, 2012 12:29 PM EST up reply actions  

This
"oh shit game is close um um um okay Melo"

Is a real problem in basketball that I see right down to my stepson’s JV team. It makes me want to be a coach so I can yell at guys – NEVER think that way. Keep playing the game, keep passing the ball, keep moving.

Problem is, stars will sometimes feed into this by getting pissy if someone else tries to make a play and it doesn’t work. That’s where the coach has to come in and commend his guy for trying to make a play.

But maybe this stuff just takes time. I’d like to see the Knicks still try to make aggressive plays. They might not work today but down the line the offense will be stronger at the end of the game.

Get The Frickin' Rebound

by fuhry on Jan 12, 2012 1:56 PM EST up reply actions  

nailed it!

“They might not work today but down the line the offense will be stronger at the end of the game.”
Melo ball weakens us in the long run

by mp987987 on Jan 12, 2012 2:20 PM EST up reply actions  

That’s where the coach has to come in and commend his guy for trying to make a play.

True, but I also think it will make an even bigger difference to have someone like Davis, who does not shrink in high-pressure situations and won’t be thinking “hmm do I pass to Melo and get out of the way, or shit the bed in front of 20,000 people” a la Toney or even Iman, at this point.

by flossy on Jan 12, 2012 2:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Certainly

Davis has the balls and the gravitas and the confidence to be in command out there at the end. Toney will never have it, I think Shump will but it will take him a little time.

Get The Frickin' Rebound

by fuhry on Jan 12, 2012 2:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Sure Davis if nothing else has the experience to handle the situation

But are we really criticizing 2 guys who between then have a grand total of 30 starts at pg? Geesh shumpert is in his 3rd career start and we expect him to play like a 12 year vet! only in NY.

by Robert Curre on Jan 12, 2012 2:43 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm not saying I expect Shump to be like "move over Melo, I got this" after 5 games

But someone does need to be able to make sure that the entire team is able to execute the offense under pressure and Baron is about 1,000 times more likely to be that guy than anyone else on the roster. Because as good as Melo is at one-on-one scoring I think it’s easier to defend his “1-on-5 in the 4th” trick that it would be if the Knicks continued to run, you know, plays (even ones designed to get Melo a better, more open shot).

by flossy on Jan 12, 2012 3:18 PM EST up reply actions  

I think

Melo was aggy cause Iggy was in his head. They were doing a lot of smack talking, and I think Melo got caught up in proving Iggy couldnt stop him. Its selfish, but understandable. I wish he would have kept a cooler head though.

And yeah, Amare has to get some 4th quarter love. But like others noted, he looks a step slow and outta shape. He’s working his way back, he’s getting there.

The Triple Felt Goose movement shall live as long as I am around.

by JerzeeBalla on Jan 12, 2012 12:05 PM EST up reply actions  

real quick

Whay in the hell is malik roses’ isue with the knicks? He called a terrible TERRIBLE game. He was even more biased than thebobcats announcers. He said hed rather have melo on the court than off bc he stops the ball. He said look at jorts, he plays better when melo is on the bench. No shit, he didnt play when melo was on the floor. After every melo bucket, " its ok, we got this" then he quoted clyde sayi.g " the sixers are perculating!"

I mean the man said so much dumb shit, im surprised he even gets opprtunity to hold a mic for play by play

"they try to do what he do, and been where he's been, but they get folded in two.....he's the dude"

by semsemma on Jan 12, 2012 9:01 AM EST via mobile reply actions  

for whom did Rose do the play by play?

the sixers?

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jan 12, 2012 9:11 AM EST up reply actions  

malik was such a godly talented player

that he can’t help but cringe when he sees mortals like carmelo do mortal things

Anxiously awaiting the day my username will be appropriate

by knickswin on Jan 12, 2012 7:20 PM EST up reply actions  

voodo doll hey? Here is a suggestion

From here on out, on knick gamedays, you get to have your 12 year old nephew (or next door neighbor’s kid, we don’t care) feed you bounce passes which you then dunk into the hoop you have stuck on your refrigerator.

Then you have him try to put the ball in the hoop and you slap it away. Just make sure your ‘helper’ is a lot shorter and you can actually block his shot.

Chandler and the knicks will thank you, and so will we.

by cynickfan on Jan 12, 2012 9:16 AM EST reply actions  

Anybody else notice that TD ALWAYS brings the ball up the court...

and then cuts to the right and heads towards the right corner. Once he gets there he either (1)picks up his dribble and either launches a cross court pass to the left elbow or commits a turnover or (2) continues his dribble down into the paint where he realizes he is in the land of the giants and is totally useless and then continues back out beyond the arch. He has NO IDEA how to run a play, he doesn’t communicate, and he keeps his head down.

He really needs to to step back into his role from last season and DWTDD which is hit 3s and provide some bench scoring. Not really his fault, he’s the round peg being stuffed in the square hole but god is it annoying to watch.

by robk on Jan 12, 2012 9:53 AM EST reply actions  

I mean, yeah

He’s really awful as a point guard, and at this point, in his third year, you can’t attribute it to nerves. The guy just doesn’t put any pressure on the defense when he brings the ball up the floor.

Is Bibby hurt? Because honestly, I think it’s a poor idea to have Toney as PG for even one minute. I think using Bibby, or even Lin, as the backup to Shump at PG and playing Toney only off the ball would increase our offensive output by 10 points a game.

I mean, seriously, is there any way that Lin could be worse playing point guard than Toney?

Get The Frickin' Rebound

by fuhry on Jan 12, 2012 10:17 AM EST up reply actions  

Purely speculation

but my guess is D’antoni plans to use TD extensively in the rotation even after Davis is healthy. Getting him onto the court with the other players that should also get heavy minutes with him will help build chemistry for later, even if he’s technically out of position right now.

In this case, the actual game results are less important than the players getting familiar with each other, how the offense will be run, and (more importantly) how the defense will be run.

While some teams are treating these early weeks as “We MUST win right now!” the Knicks strategy could be “We’re using this time as our psuedo-preseason, standings be damned, so we’re better prepared for the late season push.” If that’s true and they still come out with a winning record, look out.

by rzor on Jan 12, 2012 10:30 AM EST up reply actions  

Well, I agree with that generally

And I do think that Toney should be in the rotation now and going forward. But I also think that he shouldn’t be playing point guard at all, so I think he should be getting his rotation minutes at 2 guard.

In other words, Toney should be sharing the 2 guard duties with Landry, and someone else, be it Bibby or Lin, should be backing up Shumpert right now. That prepares them for the future.

Get The Frickin' Rebound

by fuhry on Jan 12, 2012 10:42 AM EST up reply actions  

also seems spinning TD at PG is only hurting his confidence

Whether this outweighs rzor’s speculation, we can’t say. But in the right now, this is what’s happening

by mp987987 on Jan 12, 2012 2:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah,

I mean, I think by giving him the responsibility of running the point, he’s being set up to fail. Now, that said, I do think that he’s been fine bringing the ball across half court and it’s not like he’s been turning the ball over a ton. But he’s just not getting the offense into a flow and it’s hurting his own shooting rhythm.

And even though I’m sure his teammates support him, everybody including Toney has got to realize what’s happening. Guy is good at several things – he needs to be put in a position where he can concentrate on doing those things.

Get The Frickin' Rebound

by fuhry on Jan 12, 2012 2:48 PM EST up reply actions  

FTFY

also seems spinning TD at PG is only hurting his confidence ability to focus

__________________________________________________
"He who gets the best players usually wins" - Bobby Bowden

by Russ on Jan 12, 2012 2:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Different pure speculation

I think D’antoni tries to feature TD and tries to make him get some high point outputs and then the team trades him for a draft pick. I just don’t think a 6’1" guard that is pretty much a pure scorer with average defense fits into the team plan anymore. But this is assuming that Bibby doesn’t become a walking ace bandage, which is a big assumption.

by erniesto on Jan 12, 2012 12:57 PM EST up reply actions  

We don't have a deep bench so I can't imagine TD gets traded for a non-player

and given how badly he’s playing, his trade value is negligible. If ‘featuring’ TD was enough to inflate his point totals, you’d think starting him and playing him 30+mpg at the start of the season would have done the trick.

by flossy on Jan 12, 2012 1:27 PM EST up reply actions  

You can only do so much

I agree, his performance has deflated any demand for him right now. I just don’t think he’s going to be a factor for the Knicks competing if Bibby is healthy. D’antoni is only going to feature a 8-9 person rotation in the playoffs. Knicks only need to have so many points coming off the bench, especially when accompanied with little else.

Not to mention that the Knicks aren’t going to survive to compete in a few years unless they find talent to fit around the main front court. Are Fields and Walker sufficient to backup Melo/Shumpert? Who is the 6th man? Harrellson? Similarly, Baron Davis is 32 and busted up and it remains to be seen whether Shumpert is a proper starting PG or just a real legit SG. There are just so many other needs that need filled other than a 6’1" guard and only 1 mini-exception to get talent.

You’re right though, you can’t feature TD if he’s playing as crappy as he is. But if D’antoni can do one thing, its make shooters score.

by erniesto on Jan 12, 2012 2:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes Bibby has some nagging injuries

otherwise there is no way the TD-as-PG show would stay on the air

by flossy on Jan 12, 2012 12:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Fuhry your answer on Lin is yes

But seriously, folks why all the Nitpicking on the Knicks? They have won 4 in a row, and during that stretch they have held their opponents to 85.5 points per game and 37% shooting from the floor over that stretch, those are defensive numbers that even our beloved Jeff Van Gundy would approve of. Since I have been around here you guys have been clamoring for the Knicks to get back to playing “real Knicks basketball,” which all of your said meant win with defense. Well for the last three years you guys have been bitching and moaning because Mike D’Antoni refused to coach like Jeff Van Gundy, well he is giving you guys what you have been pining for and crucifying him for over the last 3 seasons. The Knicks are playing the same ugly defensive oriented basketball that JVG’s teams played here and he is winning with it. NOw stop complaining and be happy folks. Who really gives a damn if Toney Douglas can’t play point guard, he played defense like Chris Fucking Childs last night. Who cares if Landry Fields can’t throw the ball in the hudson river while sitting in a damn rowboat in the middle of said river. Anthony Mason was never known for his sweet shooting stroke either, but like Mason Fields is starting to play the hell out of some defense. Who cares that this team can’t shoot worth a damn outside of the paint right now. The Knicks spent the entire decade of the 90s being referred to as the NY Bricks by Jim Rome and damn near everyone outside of NYC because those teams couldn’t shoot worth a damn. Those teams won plenty in the regular season. And this team is starting to win the same type of games those teams used to win. But instead of all of you guys having wet dreams all you guys do is complain about point guard play and offense. Defense wins Championships right? Who cares if this team needs an act of congress to break 90 points. Start the fucking parade plans! Tell Bloomberg to get the Canyon of heroes ready, the Knicks are back!

by Robert Curre on Jan 12, 2012 1:36 PM EST up reply actions   3 recs

+1

But this Knicks team will be a much better shooting team than as currently stands.

by bababooey2 on Jan 12, 2012 1:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed...

Not complaining at all. Just making an observation on TD’s play…

by robk on Jan 12, 2012 2:02 PM EST up reply actions  

You are correct!

And, as the Knicks revert to the Riley/JVG offensive non-flow, we’ve resurrected the old,“classic 90’s”style of complaining!

Grab onto Mourning’s leg – it’s gonna be a helluva ride!

Get The Frickin' Rebound

by fuhry on Jan 12, 2012 2:06 PM EST up reply actions  

+1

It seems like until the Knicks win a game 200 to 0 somebody will always complaine

by The Monsieur on Jan 12, 2012 2:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Bibby's box score says DNP- Coach's Decision

and I read that they’re maintaining he’s fine and in playing condition, but obviously we can’t know for sure. I’m worried D’Antoni is developing a bench allergy this early in a shortened season, having also not played Balkman in two straight. We should not have 5 such DNP’s this season, ever. Especially when we’re struggling late to find rhythm. MDA can’t be afraid to shake things up. I’m also concerned because he should be giving Bibby minutes over (or at least along with) TD if Bibby’s healthy. Poor decision.

by mp987987 on Jan 12, 2012 2:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Bibby is dealing with a foot and a knee problem

Yes he was available to play in a emergency. If someone got hurt or fouled out, or if they were behind late in the game and needed an additional 3 point shooter Bibby was available, but the word before the game was he was still in pain and was being held out unless there was an emergency.

by Robert Curre on Jan 12, 2012 2:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Amar'e

A typical performance by Amar’e would be coveted by about 90% of the league so don’t get too down on such average performances. That said he does get paid $18 mill+ for a reason.

by erniesto on Jan 12, 2012 12:53 PM EST reply actions  

The guy goes for 20 and 10 on 57% shooting and you guys are complaining

Give the man some credit. He has accepted his role as the teams number 2 option without a fucking peep. And since he returned from his ankle injury the guy has averaged 23 pts and 10.4 rebounds a game, which places him in the top 1% of all power forwards in the damn league and he isn’t playing well. Sometimes I feel Knicks fans need something to bitch about even when there is nothing to complain about!

by Robert Curre on Jan 12, 2012 1:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Credit given

The Knicks won, and a lot of good things are happening, particularly, for me, Amar’es rebounding. Still, they have a long way to go, problems that need solving – I"m just trying to solve them and obviously there’s no point to that since D’antoni is not taking my advice, but hey, saying ‘Spin Lin’ is something Fuhry do.

Get The Frickin' Rebound

by fuhry on Jan 12, 2012 2:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Have you noticed STAT is showing off a new spin-move-to-baby-hook combo

that he busts out as a counter-move when he drives going left and gets stopped?

I like it WAY more than his Channing Frye impersonation.

by flossy on Jan 12, 2012 2:29 PM EST up reply actions  

We aren't even peaking yet...

meanwhile 76ers has already, granted…it was their 3rd straight night of playing ball, so kudos to their team – of how hard they play on quite possibly tired legs… I’m sure they sore today :) lol

JPP, ELI,
sipping drinks in Hawaii

by 27Tango on Jan 12, 2012 2:22 PM EST reply actions  

I know he's 29, I know he's a star, I know we didn't get him for his defense and I know he'll "even out" eventually,

BUT WE NEED TO DEVELOP AMAR’E! Unlike football, you don’t geit to pick different players for offense and defense, and defense is (at least) half of the game! It feels like nobody has even said, “Look, Amar’e, there’s this thing called defense”. Just talk to the man about the birds and the bees, it won’t be as awkward as you think.
Offensively, he clearly needs more attention as well. The Knicks organization needs to jump on all of this because Amar’e is a big deal for this team, and is virtually untradeable. I’m not saying by any means that we should trade him if we could, just that he CAN be a huge part of this team, and getting all he’s worth would be amazing.
PS I’m also aware it’s only ten games into the season

by mp987987 on Jan 12, 2012 2:35 PM EST reply actions  

also, what we DID get him for

was to be a franchise player. In my most humble opinion, franchise players should play and even lead the defense on every possession, and do it well. props to Melo for working on turning this around for himself. He’s starting to make me eat a few of my words about that trade.

by mp987987 on Jan 12, 2012 2:43 PM EST up reply actions  

If you watched Dallas play the Celtics you would know that Amare is playing better defense than

KG right now. Kg even pulled a Matador guarding Dirk last night and got his team beat! Amare is much better defensively than he has been, is he the second coming of Bill Russell nope, but he is playing much better defense now than he has.

And by the way Amare’s improved defensive rebounding is actually helping the teams defense. Remember defense does not end until you get the rebound. That Amare is helping to control the defensive boards helps the defense.

by Robert Curre on Jan 12, 2012 2:50 PM EST up reply actions  

And

Amar’e is, was, and continues to be a huge defensive upgrade over David Lee. He’s not the smartest defensive player, but he’s capable of making good defensive plays. And playing with Chandler is a big adjustment for him – it changes his defensive role. I think it allows him to focus on rebounding more and he has, and that’s an excellent thing.

I’m not too worried about this aspect of Amar’e’s play. In fact, I’m not worried too much about him at all.

Get The Frickin' Rebound

by fuhry on Jan 12, 2012 2:55 PM EST up reply actions  

That's true,

But KG is an old man. Also I’m still frustrated with the rebounding. In the games I’ve been able to watch, I’m still seeing way too much of the entire team disappearing and not trying on the boards. I feel like we do that more than most teams.
And even without specifically agreeing with all complaints, we can definitely benefit from Amar’e being EVERYTHING he can be. All comparisons to past Knicks players and other players in the league aside, I expect the best from my boys. Are we talking championship, or are we talking "good enough"?

by mp987987 on Jan 12, 2012 2:58 PM EST up reply actions  

I even think the team taking special interest and time with Amar’e individually will improve his confidence. If we make a real effort to improve his game, he’ll feel a little special like he did last year when he was our undisputed #1 beast

by mp987987 on Jan 12, 2012 3:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Amare can play good defense

but it also seems like he takes every other defensive play off…i mean he doesn’t step up or even throw up a hand at sometimes..which is the least he can do. He gets caught watching the play a lot and it’s annoying to watch as a fan since right now the Knicks are playing decent defense but could be even better if Amare steps up his game.

by lololol on Jan 12, 2012 3:06 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree with that

I think that it is more accurate to say that STAT is defensively inconsistent, than defensively terrible.

__________________________________________________
"He who gets the best players usually wins" - Bobby Bowden

by Russ on Jan 12, 2012 3:35 PM EST up reply actions  

agreed

amare right now isn’t cutting it . .. it is not his fault exactly, but we need new things out of him this year. it’s just how it is. we can’t win with him playing like he has in the past. it won’t work. he’s second banana now, and needs to find a way to be effective with carmelo and the rest of the roster.

if amare were to do the following, i would die of happiness:
1.) get to the point where he is an average to slightly below average team defender
2.) consistently box out
3.) look for his teammates and move the ball consistently
4.) either get his second-best-mid-range-shooting-power-forward jumper back or develop some sort of rudimentary post game. doing both would be best.
5.) be more active without the ball

my hopes aren’t too high though. players can improve (compare 2003 dirk nowitzki with 2011 dirk nowitzki, or even 2012 kevin durant with 2009 kevin durant) but i takes effort. i’m not sure amare realizes what is required of him. working on his ball handling and three point shot over the summer was not encouraging (although i guess the coaching staff told him to do that).

i really wish he had more of a big man game. this amare-the-shooting-guard crap annoys me to no end. he has these huge lobster claw hands and keeps trying to work on his handle. it’s not happening. work on your post game and using your left hand.

Anxiously awaiting the day my username will be appropriate

by knickswin on Jan 12, 2012 7:28 PM EST up reply actions  

That's true,

But KG is an old man. Also I’m still frustrated with the rebounding. In the games I’ve been able to watch, I’m still seeing way too much of the entire team disappearing and not trying on the boards. I feel like we do that more than most teams.
And even without specifically agreeing with all complaints, we can definitely benefit from Amar’e being EVERYTHING he can be. All comparisons to past Knicks players and other players in the league aside, I expect the best from my boys. Are we talking championship, or are we talking “good enough”?

by mp987987 on Jan 12, 2012 2:57 PM EST reply actions  

agreeeeeddddddd

this to me is where amare and carmelo have a chance to either really impress me or really disappoint me. will they improve their games so that they can bring what this team needs or will they just keep doing what they’ve been doing.

carmelo so far i am happy with. he tries on defense. he actively looks to get his teammates involved for much of the game other than fourth quarters. he hustles. there are improvements to be made, but so far he seems to be heading in the right direction. i expected this though. carmelo is serious. he cares about his reputation. he also has a good sense of basketball history. he has a personal relationship with michael jordan who he calls his “mentor.” i’m sure melo’s been told many times that great players make their teammates player.

amare i’m not so sure about. he’s never going to be kevin mchale with the post moves or a chris webber passer or tim duncan with the defense, but he can try. i think if he were to reach his aptitude in defense, passing, and post play within the next couple of seasons, he could be good enough. but it’s such a stretch. he really would have to work toward becoming a different player. he’s done that already. he’s a different player now than he was pre surgery. maybe he’d be willing to do that again. but in a lot of ways it makes more sense to trade him for a player who already has the skills we need.

Anxiously awaiting the day my username will be appropriate

by knickswin on Jan 12, 2012 7:35 PM EST up reply actions  

i need some research help

osborn, that is an awesome summary. do you write sociology term papers for a fee on the side, cause i think you’d be good at it. i was hoping to utilize your skills as a research asst. i have recollections that both lou williams and thaddeous young kill the knicks every time they play us, and yet they were both held at bay (w/ one small segment of time by thad) last eve. that 2 me was very sweet. am i right?

by knicks613 on Jan 12, 2012 4:20 PM EST reply actions  

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