Let's Discuss Carmelo Anthony's Role in the Offense
by Chris Child's Fist on Jan 13, 2012 11:50 AM EST
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PrintFor the last handful of games now, I don't see much discussion about Melo's ISO domination.
I don't know if I am trying to stir anything with that, but it does seem to me that Melo is heavily dominating the ball on offense. Seems to happen a lot that he gets the ball and everyone runs away. He takes a ton of shots but it seems like little is left for others. Obviously the guy is a dynamic scorer and easily one of the best in the NBA. And don't get me wrong, I am a huge fan. When you have a talent like Melo on your squad, you want to maximize him best you can. But are we doing that? Or are the Knicks overusing him?
D'Antoni did just come out and admit they need to get Amar'e more involved in the offense, but before this, I haven't noticed much commentary here about Melo running the Knicks offense. But has anyone else noticed this? It doesn't seem like the Knicks are necessarily the cohesive bunch that we kind of picture in our mind grapes. Whether or not that is directly a result of not having a "proper" PG I am not sure, but I DO think it is fair to expect better offensive play from this group. Yes we have new pieces, but the new pieces aren't exactly strategy game-changers.
It doesn't seem like the Knicks are running the way we might have expected from an uptempo MDA system either. Is it good for the team to have Melo just improvising or would we be more dangerous in having him create off the ball more and feature more cutting and slashing from other players?
Is anyone else noticing this? Does it bear Posting & Toasting discussion??
*Full Disclsoure* : Yes, we have a PG who is currently injured. Baron Davis, maybe you have heard of him? However, since he is yet to return and still weeks away, let's do better than simply saying "Wait til BD is healthy!" We can't just put the season on hold until Diddy is healthy and in peak game form. These games are gonna get played, veteran PG or not. We still need to win more than we lose too.
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Meh... they at least won a game in their series...
"Madison Square Garden is the ultimate basketball stage. That's where I belong. That's where I live. That's the home of the New York Knicks." - Amar'e Stoudemire
by Chris Child's Fist on Jan 13, 2012 1:31 PM EST up reply actions
Some people give credit where credit is due.
"Madison Square Garden is the ultimate basketball stage. That's where I belong. That's where I live. That's the home of the New York Knicks." - Amar'e Stoudemire
by Chris Child's Fist on Jan 13, 2012 4:21 PM EST up reply actions
dude. just stop.
The way you worded your original comment was essentially bashing the Nuggets like they suck. And they don’t. And you know they don’t suck.
I’m all for rooting for the Knicks. We’ve got serious talent and a bright future. But acting like we are the only good team is stupid. And as much as I like the Knicks, we were embarassed in the playoffs last year. The old ass Celtics swept the Knicks. The same Knicks who were supposed to be these trendy sleepers to surprise peeps in the playoffs. And we got swept in the 1st round. No other team was swept in the playoffs. Yeah we had some key injuries. Fine, so did Boston. Fucking Rondo was playing through a serious injury.
Denver? They had a brand new starting lineup just like us and they just played ball. No they didn’t beat OK City, but neither did most other teams. At least they took a game. OK City nearly made the NBA Finals. Where did Boston go? The only bright spot they had was knocking out the Knicks.
"Madison Square Garden is the ultimate basketball stage. That's where I belong. That's where I live. That's the home of the New York Knicks." - Amar'e Stoudemire
by Chris Child's Fist on Jan 13, 2012 4:41 PM EST up reply actions
okay....
1) I didn’t initally bash the Nuggets. I was responding to someone else’s gratuitous mention of the “Nuggets laughing at the Knicks after the trade,” last year. Thats when I released the hounds. I was not arsonist, but I had to put out the fire.
2) The Celtics won 56 games last year. The Knicks 42. Clearly they were better. By alot. We had two key injuries. The Celtics really had none. The Rondo injury you are referring to occured in the HEAT series afterwards, when he twisted his elbow. Get the facts straight.
3)Denver didn’t really have a “brand new lineup.” The offense still ran through their point guards, in that case Ty Lawson who had been with the team for 2 years and had been spelling Billups with major minutes and spot starts. The only significant lineup changed was Gallo replacing Melo. Mozgov, Chandler and Felton all came off bench. It is alot easier to incorporate a bench than 2/5s of your starting lineup with Melo and Billups, the latter of which was in charge of running an offense he had to learn on the fly, an offense which heavily depended on a PG. And in the process the Knicks were forced to deplete their own bench as well. It is also important to note the Nuggets already had a better record before the Knicks trade.
4) As most rational people would conclude the difference between losing a series in 4 and losing in 5 is really meaningless, especially when that one win was by 3 points and occurred on a comeback such as Denver’s victory over Oklahoma. “Most other teams didn’t beat Oklahoma?” Well in the playoffs they BARELY got by an inferior 46 win Grizzlies team playing without their 2nd best player and then lost to the Mavs in FIVE games who played without their 2nd best scorer.
5)Do me a favor. Stop exaggerating.
Thunder are really good
And Nuggets are a top 5 team right now, even with Wilson Chandler stuck in China.
11 games into the season?
Pssst..The Knicks are 1 whole solitary game behind this “top 5” team.
the difference in game play is striking
denver fans are loving what they see right now. knick fans are puking and waiting for BD.
I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."
actually the game play of each team highlights the inferiority of Denver.
If the Knicks can be 6-5 with a key injury and zero offensive chemistry and yet still only 1 game behind these superlative, ball-moving, chemistry-filled, starless, no-ego, fun-loving, adorable Denvery Nuggetsies what does it say about Denver’s upside relative to New York’s?
We've played the 29th weakest schedule so far
Denver’s played the 12th. And they still have a better record. And their fans are happy. And our team is garbage right now.
These are the same things that were said after the melo trade and they still lost in 5 in the first round. Try another set of excuses.
Hey I read this once in the back of a Snapple cap: “Did you know that Carmelo Anthony averaged as many points per game in the first round of the 2011 playoffs last year as Felton, Mozgov, Gallinari, and Chandler did combined in the first round of the playoffs for the Denver Nuggets.”
Belie dat.
last year's playoffs are old news
Knicks could miss it this year, and they’ve not been fun to watch. Nuggets have much more flexibility and have made better moves than the Knicks have.
I bet prior to the season you thought they were just a fluke after the trade and would suck this year without Melo, and without JR Smith and Wilson Chandler, right?
wait a sec...
now your pumping up the Nuggets at the expense of the unanimous championship favorite that makes sportswriters that picked them to win look like they “know a fucking thing or two about basketball?”
The Heat are still favored to win it all
But the Nuggets are also a better team than the Knicks. You’re just doubly ignorant.
well, he does seem to have a point
Denver is definitely a better team than us, and it is completely logical to think that we may have been better without the trade for Melo (especially if you figure that we would be deeper in a truncated season and that Wil may have stayed bc he loves NY). It’s also logical to say that Den. beat MIA and, right now, we don’t stand a chance the way our offense is running.
With that said, this is the team we have – like it or not – and it’s with Melo-Stat-Tyson that we will HAVE to find a way to win with.
I don't care whether the Nuggets are better than the Knicks TODAY. I was opining on what each team is going to look like later in season.
Because based on ur logic, than TODAY and RIGHT NOW the Nuggets are better than the Heat. Correct? So then what does that mean for the future? That they will be better in the second half of the season barring any injuries? That they’d win a finals matchup barring any future trades and injuries? You guys make me laugh. One week Team A is"better" than team B. Than 3 weeks later “Team B” has a chance against team A. Than a month later Team C is better than B but not A, even though at the beginning of the season Team C wasn’t really considered at all. You guys should all get together and create a network called BSPN…..oh wait, nevermind.
OK, before you start reading this do something for me: take a chill pill
I don’t think I mentioned anything about the future of either teams. I was merely stating that Denver is better than NY right now, which you clearly understood. I’m also not trying to pretend that I know what either team will look like at the end of the season. I’m only speaking to what I notice as of right now, that we look very, very disconnected on offense right now. I also understand that we wont look this way at the end of the season. So don’t go putting words into my posts. With that said, It’s going to be difficult for us in a season smushed together to become as cohesive as a team that has been together longer and has a deeper bench – which Denver has. It’s not a knock on the Knicks if Denver ends up being better this year. Just a testament to their depth.
And make no mistake, I like Melo. I like Melo a lot and I think that this team can be special and win, but we need a PG to run the show. Hopefully Baron is that guy, but if a distributing PG doesn’t solve our lack of cohesion, then we need a new voice leading the locker room.
Oh and if you’re taking notes, and believing that anyone truly cares about them, then consider that a majority of us probably never flip-flopped like you make it sound. I’m pretty sure that said majority would also agree with me when I say you need to really chill and not take anything so personal.
Who said Im taking things personally? Talk about putting words in peoples mouths.
oh and btw, you said “Denver is definitely a better team than us.” That doesn’t sound like you meant only for the present. You didn’t qualify that statement until I made you. Lastly, I never said I didn’t think the Knicks needed a point guard. Lastly, if someone says they would trade the Knicks roster for Denvers, they should stand by their words and shouldnt care whether anyone takes note of it unless they feel insecure about making or supporting such a statement. My guess is you probably do already but don’t want to admit it. Its called buyers remorse.
"doesn't sound?"
Haha, putting words in my mouth is exactly what you’re doing if you’re just going to assume something. Yes, I could’ve clarified, but I didn’t think it was needed. Obviously, for you it did, but don’t go assuming something just to make an argument about it. To clarify my previous post, I don’t think I ever said you didn’t think we needed a PG. In fact, I never said I would trade our roster for Denver’s. Only that right now they are a better team than us – talk about putting words in ones mouth. I was merely pointing it out, but I see now that if I’m not agreeing with you then I’ll just ignore you.
I never thought they would suck this year. Im curious though since you are possessed with telepathy...what else am I thinking?
I will say though that in order to win a championship you need chemistry AND stars. Good luck Nuggets, and Nugget-lovers.
the knicks have generally looked like crap
since the trade. there have been flashes, but if i was not a fan i would be completly mocking this team and laughing my ass off at their misfortunes.
shit could trn around. no doubt. it could click, bd can save the day, lotsa shit can happen.
but I would trade our team for Denvers 9 times out of 10. I cant discribe the joy my denver fan friend shows when talking aobut Gallo and the rest of his team and how he laughs anytime i mention how melo is growing up as a player.
magic may happen, and all hope is not lost. but if this team becomes a legit contender it would be one of the more amazing stories of the season. it would signify a major transition from the team we have seen so far, which is rare to happen.
Denver, while still holding a ton of our draft picks, is playing amazingly awesome.
I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."
gbaked...everything you say gets recorded and stored. So when you say something like
“Id trade Denver’s roster for Knicks roster 9 times out of 10,” you put yourself at risk of eating your own words and making yourself look like an extremely shortsighted trend-follower.
...or he sees the picture more clearly than you.
"Madison Square Garden is the ultimate basketball stage. That's where I belong. That's where I live. That's the home of the New York Knicks." - Amar'e Stoudemire
by Chris Child's Fist on Jan 14, 2012 1:00 PM EST up reply actions
make that three.
I don’t mean to join the hate against ya, baba, but you’re being ignorantly blinded by Melo’s ‘superstar’ status.
Basketball is a team game, and Melo – with all his one-on-one, size you up and knock it down glory – doesn’t play a team game. Assists are great. He’s trying, and I give him a lot of props for that, but he needs to move the ball faster, shoot faster, and take a backseat sometimes. Then, he’ll be a team player.
but right now, it’s the MeloShow
the full roster
not individual.
yes… melo is the best player on both teams. Stat and Chandler may be #2 & 3.
However, the team of the Nugs is better then the Knicks. If we had not made the trade… we could conceivably still have melo (remember, he was going to be a FA…) or, maybe we add chandler like we did anyway and have him playing with Stat, Felt, Gallo, Moz, and all those future picks.
I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."
I would be so happy to eat my words
on that.
Please knicks, prove me wrong.
I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."
with you gbaked...
extreme words, but sorta/very true. our fandom clouds what’s been, and what’s been has not been good.
lotsa hoping… very little seeing.
by bucketsncents on Jan 14, 2012 1:42 PM EST up reply actions
knicks fans are puking after the Grizz game
they were jizzing before it
2012 New York Mets, World Series Champions!
there was a bit of excitement before the grizz game
which most of us felt was a major test.
well… no. they failed. they failed as badly as one could fail.
Jizzing is a bit of a stretch from tempered enthusiasm most of us felt. (although bababooey2 seems to be in a consistent state of jizz thanks to melo…. pause.)
I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."
Last season the Knicks had Billups and were a .500 team at best
So why would Baron Davis make the Knicks championship contenders?
I'm not ready to declare the Knicks title contenders because of Baron Davis.
I think Davis has a lot of juice in his tank still, but its a huge “IF”, in my opinion, that he can stay healthy. I’m kinda surprised how peeps are are kinda overlooking that aspect of his NBA career too.
I guarantee if the Cavs had offered Baron Davis to us in a trade, the FIRST thing we would have hollered was “Dude is an injury risk!!!”
When I factor in Davis’ injury, the Knicks trying to coexist and bring out the best in each other without a full training camp/preseason, much less a full season, plus the additional honeymoon games to give Baron Davis a chance to mesh with his new teammates… well, I mean, I have a feeling we will be regurgitating those factors as excuses come playoff time.
"Madison Square Garden is the ultimate basketball stage. That's where I belong. That's where I live. That's the home of the New York Knicks." - Amar'e Stoudemire
by Chris Child's Fist on Jan 13, 2012 1:40 PM EST up reply actions
I think if the Knicks were offered Baron Davis
They would have traded away a few guys to get him, if they actually had players with matching salaries. When have the Knicks ever cared at all about injury risk?
I didn't know Tyson Chandler was worth so much
20 games better over a season compared to Shelden Williams and Turiaf. I doubt it. And most people would say Billups > Baron.
http://www.nbagauntlet.com/baron-davis-vs-chauncey-billups/ 63%
I think Chandler has significant worth
But I’m not so sure the Knicks have figured out the best place for him yet.
I’m mostly talking about his offense… he can make FTs and he plays close to the basket. We have a center perfectly capable of scoring but it’s like he is ignored.
I’m not saying run the offense through him, but I see no reason why we don’t post Chandler up at least a few times a game. At least get him involved more than just telling him to grab a rebound. He doesn’t have to be Wilt Chamberlain or Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, but dude isn’t Ben Wallace either…
"Madison Square Garden is the ultimate basketball stage. That's where I belong. That's where I live. That's the home of the New York Knicks." - Amar'e Stoudemire
by Chris Child's Fist on Jan 13, 2012 1:52 PM EST up reply actions
I think Chandler's the best player on the team
But still not worth 20 wins over last season, and the rest of the Knicks are playing horribly.
That same article says..
Based on the numbers NBA.com highlights, Baron Davis is a much better player.
notice the word “much.”
You didnt know Tyson Chandler was worth so much? Well the GMs of the Hornets, Mavs, Warriors and Knicks apparently differed in opinion.
I wrote that!
I was offering that people who just like numbers instead of percentages could think Baron was better. Most people thought Billups was better.
WAIT A SEC!!
That article is from 2008..come on thats cheating. In the last 4 years Billups has declined while Baron has been pretty consistent from his “We Believe” years. Try conducting that Baron vs. Billups poll today. Come on bro. I was born at night. NOT LAST NIGHT!
Where's the proof that Billups declined but Baron didn't?
Just last season, Billups had significantly more value than Baron, who was traded WITH the #1 pick for Mo Williams. They had similar salaries, both were amnestied. Billups had superior numbers last season. I couldn’t do another poll right now because one is playing SG and the other is injured.
by mindfeck on Jan 14, 2012 8:47 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
buddy, pal, friend, amigo, filo...
Don’t refer to a 4 year old poll to buttress your argument. Thats all Im saying.
Plus your missing the bigger point on Baron Davis which I should have mentioned at the beginning...
it doesnt really matter who is technically a better player billups or baron because Baron is a much better “fit” for D’Antoni’s up-temp, 7 seconds or less style of fastbreak offense. We already seen Billups in action under MDA. It wasn’t always inspiring.
disagree.
maybe alll time
Dear fox.... Fire Aikman and buck. they suck
Desean Jackson IS a punk....................UNLEASH Eli
Jason Peire Paul (JPP) 2011-2012 NFL Defensive player of the year
"We’re going to turn this team around 360 degrees." –Jason Kidd
"If you come to a fork in the road, take it" -Yogi Berra
by Lawrence Taylor The Real LT on Jan 13, 2012 3:17 PM EST up reply actions
u think that a helthy chauncey billups is a better fit for this team then a healthy davis?
Dear fox.... Fire Aikman and buck. they suck
Desean Jackson IS a punk....................UNLEASH Eli
Jason Peire Paul (JPP) 2011-2012 NFL Defensive player of the year
"We’re going to turn this team around 360 degrees." –Jason Kidd
"If you come to a fork in the road, take it" -Yogi Berra
by Lawrence Taylor The Real LT on Jan 13, 2012 4:03 PM EST up reply actions
no no no. I was agreeing with you. B.Diddy is better fit than Billups and Tyson Chandler is worth it.
I was loling when you said “maybe all the time.”
oh. ha
Dear fox.... Fire Aikman and buck. they suck
Desean Jackson IS a punk....................UNLEASH Eli
Jason Peire Paul (JPP) 2011-2012 NFL Defensive player of the year
"We’re going to turn this team around 360 degrees." –Jason Kidd
"If you come to a fork in the road, take it" -Yogi Berra
by Lawrence Taylor The Real LT on Jan 14, 2012 1:52 PM EST up reply actions
moot since neither is healthy
Billups is a much better shooter and has been a good passer when coached to pass.
and melo is a good defender when coavhed to defend
Dear fox.... Fire Aikman and buck. they suck
Desean Jackson IS a punk....................UNLEASH Eli
Jason Peire Paul (JPP) 2011-2012 NFL Defensive player of the year
"We’re going to turn this team around 360 degrees." –Jason Kidd
"If you come to a fork in the road, take it" -Yogi Berra
by Lawrence Taylor The Real LT on Jan 14, 2012 1:52 PM EST up reply actions
ok.
but my point is chauncey doesnt really pass. he’s a scorer.
we dont need another one of those.
we need a great passer like davis
Dear fox.... Fire Aikman and buck. they suck
Desean Jackson IS a punk....................UNLEASH Eli
Jason Peire Paul (JPP) 2011-2012 NFL Defensive player of the year
"We’re going to turn this team around 360 degrees." –Jason Kidd
"If you come to a fork in the road, take it" -Yogi Berra
by Lawrence Taylor The Real LT on Jan 15, 2012 4:16 PM EST up reply actions
don't know whose fault it is...
melo’s or MDA’s, but i can’t ever justify 48 minutes of isolations (only slight exageration)… no matter how talented a guy is.
it ruins team chemistry, it creates sluggish defenders, it promotes indifference, chucking… and losing.
shit better get fixed and we better start moving the ball and playing with pace… or we’re gonna suck.
right?
We have so many talented guys and some good shooters, good post up players, and I just don’t think the Knicks are getting the best play out of everyone on a nightly basis.
That’s an easy thing to blame on the coach. I’m not clearly Pringles of that blame, but I’m not laying it all on him either.
But you are absolutely right… this offense isn’t flowing at all. And we don’t need an elite PG to be able to pass the ball around and find an open man or work the ball into the post. That’s fundamental shit.
"Madison Square Garden is the ultimate basketball stage. That's where I belong. That's where I live. That's the home of the New York Knicks." - Amar'e Stoudemire
by Chris Child's Fist on Jan 13, 2012 4:26 PM EST up reply actions
To Answer the Question... The Iso's are killing them.
Yes, Melo is the designated finisher, and by far the best on the team. But against the 76ers, he was doing it too much, and he started too soon. As soon as TD or Shump would get the ball up court, Melo would run up to them and tell them to give him the ball. The exchange would get sloppy because Melo’s man would follow and the pg’s would essentially be trapped by Melo and the two defenders. Eventually, they stopped even attempting to run the offense and would just watch Melo and see what he wanted them to do. They won, but it was ugly. They should have continued to try to re-establish ball movement throughout the game. And ocassionally when Melo was double or triple teamed in his improvised Iso, he should have swung the ball out with the hope of getting an easier shot.
For that reason, I can understand alot of what Shump was doing last night. He was following the example of leadership. Yes, he’s a rookie and doesn’t need to shoot that much. But he’s a rookie and he is going to pick up both the good and the bad habits of the vets. Melo thinks, “we’re struggling, so I’m not going to involve my teammates… I’m just shooting”. The rookie follows the example. A man with Shumpert’s attitude didn’t fight his way to the NBA to have someone say, “give me the ball and move”. He’s just not wired that way. And Chandler was furious at both of them for not even attempting to get him the ball inside. It obviously affected his game. It affected everyone’s game.
Iso’s are good in short spots, and at the end of games. But going 1-on-3 constantly is going to get Melo beat up… even if he does get the foul calls. And it stops the team from developing an identity and depth, which they will need to go anywhere in the playoffs. The need to focus on team ball, even if they lose an extra game or two right now. Otherwise, the New York Melo’s won’t be any more effective than the Cleveland LeBrons were.
When I get in the game... win or lose... you know it's pretty much over.
by Hawthorne Nathaniel Wingo on Jan 13, 2012 5:15 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Melo needs to learn how to shoot off a pass and not 7 seconds after he gets the ball.
Our offense wont have any flow until Melo plays how a SF is suppose to play in D’antoni’s offense. Catch and shoot, Melo. Catch and shoot.
i think part of the problem is the way the season is scheduled
This season is built in maybe the worst possible way for this team.
we needed a preseason, prob more then a normal preseason. We didnt get one.
We went all offseason thinking we had Melo, Stat, Billups and no Center. Right before the season started we switched that up big time. Prob wrecking whatever planing Mike D had.
The stacked games, lots of traveling and lack of practices are very bad for a not-young team with no chemestry, questions about how they should play, and main guys coming off of an injury. However, it helps a young, deep team that has a clear gameplan (like, denver lets say… or the thunder).
I am kinda wishing, in hindsight, that we let STAT go instead of billups. Or, that we had not signed billups extension and used the amnisty on STAT. I like STAT, prob more then melo. But I am not sure how they can co-exist. I kinda feel like they dont like each other. IDK…
I dont think we should do any rash changes and I think a lot of these issues can work themselves out. I kinda think they should just keep focusing on D, trying things out and crossing our fingers for BD to come back healthy and ready. As long as we can maintain striking distance, we are ok. We still have a winning record, and right in the thick of the playoff standings.
I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."
On the other hand, the Knicks had the best possible schedule
By having such weak competition, almost as a way of built in preseason. Yeah Amar’e’s looked bad, but I think much of that is playing with Melo and not getting into a rhythm with Melo running the offense. Melo’s assist numbers are up, but since he has the ball all the time, and doesn’t often pass to the big guys, the team is suffering. He’ll basically iso and either shoot or pass to a guard who immediately shoots a three. It’s a horrible offense.
that could be what is most troubling.
On paper, these Knicks should be able to handle most of the teams they have played and any losses should be at least close games.
But it seems that each night its a blowout with the Knicks either winning or losing.
"Madison Square Garden is the ultimate basketball stage. That's where I belong. That's where I live. That's the home of the New York Knicks." - Amar'e Stoudemire
by Chris Child's Fist on Jan 14, 2012 1:04 PM EST up reply actions
You saw me talking about this, but then continued to ask in this post if anyone else has noticed these things
Yes I’ve noticed these things – I posted about them in the Grizzlies game recap discussion.
Great, I must have missed that.
Care to add to the discussion or just point out that you asked about this before I did?
"Madison Square Garden is the ultimate basketball stage. That's where I belong. That's where I live. That's the home of the New York Knicks." - Amar'e Stoudemire
by Chris Child's Fist on Jan 19, 2012 2:18 PM EST up reply actions
I now remember
Why I dont post as much. I cant take this Debbie downer shit. Im not blind to whats happening, but a lot of these posts arent very helpful. Instead of placing blame and talking a bunch of shoulda, coulda, woulda shit, lets just keep looking ahead. The trades were made, deal with it.
The Triple Felt Goose movement shall live as long as I am around.
I'm with you. We have what we have and they are the Knicks, but it's understandable for people to be lamenting over the Melo trade because this is the first time we've really suffered since then.
Everyone will have to except and get excited about what we do have: A top scorer who stops the ball, perhaps the top offensive PF, and a great leader and two way player at the center. There are a lot of good things there, but right now we aren’t clicking and, in true NY fashion, when it starts to rain we all worry about a flood.
But don’t worry, the minute somebody sees a flicker of light it’ll be sunny again.
i agree - got to deal with what we have
on the main issue about melo/ offence here’s my take…
we brought in d’antoni. he ran a great offensive team in phoenix which relied on a pg who can play up-tempo. stat was one of the best in the league in that system. since he has been in ny he has had chris duhon as his point guard for two years. then he did finally get ray felton, a pg who could run an up-tempo system.
but let’s be clear here, ray felton is really only above average at best. he could run the system though, and was following chris duhon, and was feeding amare, so it all looked good, but there were still some blowout losses, a terrible 3-8 start and some real inconsistency as well. we were fun to watch and effective most games, but it was still the knicks so there were plenty of trials and tribulations! people tend to forget that. fwiw felton had to play 37-38 mpg because douglas was so bad at running the system, so we should have been able to see what would happen!
the trade brought us melo, but it also traded out felton. as i say felton wasn’t amazing but he could run the system, and that system allowed amare (and fields) to flourish. billups, whatever you think of him, he was not an up tempo pg. so without a pg to run the system d’antoni had little option but to run a melo-centric, more slowed down system.
this season we have fixed a long standing and massive problem by signing tyson chandler. but we still have the pg/ system issue, which imho we would still have had if we kept billups.
i know people don’t want to talk about baron davis, but in the four years pringles has been here he has not had a pg who is anywhere near as talented. sure we need to see how much he has left in the tank, but he did alright last year in la and cleveland, and baron davis alright is a shit-ton better than than anything we have had in the past few years. i think people are looking at him through the eyes of a fanbase suffering from a serious case of point-guard-post-traumatic-stress-disorder.
but for now we need to win games. and pringles is in a contract year. so he has to work the offence through melo and try to gut out some wins. he doesn’t have any choice really, given the uproar that follows any loss at all, and the fact that he has no pg at all to run the offence.
but once baron davis is back the work begins. it’s a simple choice – melo can play in either system as he showed in the olympics (and i reckon could be even more effective in a more up-tempo system) but amare (and fields) obviously can’t, or at the very least are much less effective. tyson chandler thrives on pick and roll, so he’s going to fit fine in that as well.
(as an aside on the fields point, as has been pointed out, he has completely changed his shooting mechanics so it will take time to bed in. that is why he is shooting poorly, but it will come around. the coaches did this so he would be able to be effective in the nba in the long-term)
i can’t see how d’antoni won’t introduce that system, even if it’s a bit more of a hybrid – once baron is back. melo being the one to adapt is not an anti-melo point, it’s how to get the best out of all the players and create a team that can win.
i think it’s a reasonable bet that even with the sky falling on our heads we should be around about 500 through the end of jan to middle of feb, even working in baron davis. then we get to the end of feb and through march and april we are firing hopefully on all cylinders. we should be finishing around 38-40 wins, which isn’t that bad in a 66 game season and gets us comfortably into the playoffs. we may not have homecourt, but if we’re running and gunning we’ll be very dangerous.
the only way i can’t see that happening if pringles panics and thinks he can’t afford to risk changing the offence in case the team gets worse in the short term and he gets fired. that is possible, especially in the hysteric atmosphere that surrounds every single knicks loss. but if that happens we will limp into the playoffs at 500 and be a first round out. without a doubt pringles gets the can in the situation, and i suspect he knows it.
obviously injury can derail that, but that’s the case with every team in the league.
ultimately it’s a marathon, not a sprint. a little patience is required. after all pringles has had to be majorly patient, but he is a very talented coach and has some very talented players. once he has the actual opportunity to run his system again we should be very good. think how fun we were last season pre-trade and imagine that system with a proper centre, melo signed up, which i think he will be, and a reasonable defence. that’s what we should be looking forward to.
yes we just dropped a game to the grizzlies on a back to back, flying out straight after a win, with melo injured in the 3rd. yes we just dropped a game to probably the best team in the league right now, without melo and with no real pg to run the system. but with all our problems we did just win 4 in a row, even if it was against some dodgy teams and philly on a back-to-back-to-back.
we are where we are now because there is no choice to try and keep things afloat until we can run the system. its ugly right now, but i believe better (and prettier) days are round the corner, and in the meantime the team is learning to play defence.
by patrickm23 on Jan 15, 2012 4:05 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm not sure if you are targeting me here or this post...
But this isn’t about changing any minds in regards to the trades the Knicks have made or asking for any redos. It’s asking how the Knicks should handle their offensive slumps. Its quite obvious this team is NOT firing on all cylinders and I am asking if part of that problem is how we are using Melo.
I think that is a perfectly fair question to ask!
"Madison Square Garden is the ultimate basketball stage. That's where I belong. That's where I live. That's the home of the New York Knicks." - Amar'e Stoudemire
by Chris Child's Fist on Jan 19, 2012 2:26 PM EST up reply actions
Simply this:
Get Melo the ball while he’s in motion.
If Melo wants to post up and score from a standstill, he can stop himself. But don’t deliver him the ball when he’s posting up 20 feet from the basket standing still. It just stagnates everything, which may be OK with 20 seconds left in the game, but all other times it’s not OK.
I’m sure Baron Davis would say the same thing.
Get The Frickin' Rebound
Melo needs to adjust to more of a point forward, leading the pick and roll…
Chandler is the pick and roll finisher
Amare needs to become more of a stretch 4, looking for the kick out in the corner where he can pull up or attack
Shumpert, Fields, Douglas roles are the same as Amare
I don't know if that's best for Amar'e though...
He is at his best when he is crashing the lane and using his brute strength to attack the rim. Turning him into a stretch 4 who relies more on jumpshots sounds like we want him to be Patrick Ewing. Amar’e is never gonna have the jumpshot Ewing had though.
I actually believe the offense would be better suited to post Amare and/or Chandler, and expect them to kick the ball out to guys like Melo who can shoot or create for themselves. But Keep Amare close to the basket!
"Madison Square Garden is the ultimate basketball stage. That's where I belong. That's where I live. That's the home of the New York Knicks." - Amar'e Stoudemire
by Chris Child's Fist on Jan 19, 2012 2:32 PM EST up reply actions
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