Postgame Thread: Magic 102, Knicks 93
by Seth on Jan 16, 2012 3:39 PM EST
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PrintWell, they made a game of it, but the Magic lathered on the outside shooting and a confounding zone defense at the end there to push the Knicks below .500.
Recap will come later. Go ahead and call for Mike D'Antoni's head or demand that Amar'e be traded for a doorknob or do whatever it is you do in the meantime.
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The problem with building your entire offense around the one-on-one game of one player
is that when that player comes up lame and can’t hit the site of a barn, you lose. Because you have nothing else to fall back on when your opponent throws a zone at you.
Hopefully MDA and co are working towards a less Melo-centric offense
I can’t imagine that they aren’t. But its still relatively early days with a new roster. A lockout shortened season doesn’t favor a team that’s trying to integrate a bunch of new parts. But yeah, this was a frustrating afternoon, for sure.
by PolyphonicSpreewell on Jan 16, 2012 3:46 PM EST up reply actions
It doesn't help that our 2 best PGs are both on the bench wearing suits
and yes I am counting D’Antoni.
I think thats really it
The offense is Melo-centric because he has the ball in his hands all the time. With our current squad, its hard to argue for a guy who should be holding it more.
"But when he saw it, he just put his hands up and they couldn’t give it to him. It just fell to the ground, I-I don’t, you know … So, that showed me he had great experience..." - Jeff Van Gundy
by Anthony Bonner's Subpoena on Jan 16, 2012 5:15 PM EST up reply actions
I mean, yeah
But when the only logical person to hold the ball takes more than 1/3 of his team’s shots and can barely stay above a 1:1 AST/TO ratio… the team just plain sucks.
After all this, the years of sucking, the rebuild, the trades, etc., I hate that we’re waiting with baited breath and hoping that someone as mercurial as Baron Davis is going to save this roster from itself.
Its not optimal, I agree
but its not like Baron is the only option in the whole league that can save the team, he’s just the only guy on our current roster.
Baron’s return will shed a lot of light on whether this can be a working model or not. If it can, we simply need to find a healthy, capable PG (either in place of or as insurance for Baron). If it can’t, we got problems.
"But when he saw it, he just put his hands up and they couldn’t give it to him. It just fell to the ground, I-I don’t, you know … So, that showed me he had great experience..." - Jeff Van Gundy
by Anthony Bonner's Subpoena on Jan 16, 2012 10:29 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Most Likely to Have a Career Game Tracker
And the big winner is… Ryan Anderson!
He scored an actual career high and went 11-19 with 7 threes and 7 rebounds.
Runner up: JJ Redick with 21 points.
Interesting fact: If you leave shooters open, they will score.
anderson has been putting up numbers all year though
he’s on my fantasy team. the man puts in work.
Anxiously awaiting the day my username will be appropriate
If you want, I'm willing to cede control of the Career Game Tracker to you
I haven’t gotten one right anyway and if I recall correctly it was your idea in the first place.
Home of the Jared Jeffries Shot Tracker
by bluecheese999 on Jan 16, 2012 5:02 PM EST up reply actions
Sure
I just did today’s game because I didn’t see you around, but yeah I’d love to handle the Career Game Tracker.
In that case, it's yours to handle
Hope your predictions are as bad as mine were (because that would mean no career games of course!)
Home of the Jared Jeffries Shot Tracker
by bluecheese999 on Jan 16, 2012 5:09 PM EST up reply actions
Shooting is way down all across the league right now
Surprising that teams don’t go to the zone more often right now, actually. Anyway, if there’s one adjustment I think D’Antoni should have made, it’s that Novak should have been inserted in the 4th. His quick release 3 is tailor made for zone busting, and he’s the rare guy who can come off the bench cold and immediately hit a 3.
Signs of hope
- After his foul plagued, quiet first half, Amare started coming off screens and/or rolling to the hole in the second half and was much more effective. Hopefully this continues, because that was his best stretch in a while (maybe this season?)
- Chandler handled Dwight really well
- Shump showing more signs of playing like a point guard
- Jorts not only hitting shots, but driving to the hoop when the defender steps up to take the shot away
It’s still early. The negativity is understandable, but this team can still figure it out.
And the jumpshots WILL start to fall. Maybe in 5 games, maybe in 10, but they will. When they do, everything will seem very different.
This team always seem to play 3 good quarters
but it that 4th one (not always the 4th quarter) that’s really really bad.
I'll take process over results for now
We did good things in the 4th. The shots just didn’t drop, and theirs did. If Orlando goes 15-35 from deep instead of 17-35, and if we go 7-20 instead of 5-20, or if Toney and Shump’s shots in the paint drop in instead of rimming out, the outcome of the game is different. I know the 4th FELT terrible, but it really wasn’t.
*I'm not saying it was GOOD, mind
We definitely rushed some shots and we definitely need to work on our double teaming quickness and locating and rotating to the open shooters. But it wasn’t hopeless like some of our other games have seemed this season. The effort was there, the approach was mostly positive, we just have to tweak some things. It was a HUGE step up from the last two games.
I've been grouchy about the team lately
But I actually agree with this. Process v. results is a good way of putting it. That fourth Q was definitely the best Melo and Amar’e have played together this year…Amar’e setting and rolling and generally moving in rhythm. It looks so easy when it’s going well; I wonder if MDA consciously changed anything or if it was just a matter of everyone getting settled down together.
The bigger problem right now is that we have two guys who can collapse the defense on any given play…but our best spot-up shooter is the rookie backup power forward. If just one of Douglas, Fields, Walker, or Shumpert could get on a roll from outside…
by bmathislilley on Jan 16, 2012 4:07 PM EST up reply actions
at some point we are going to have to start winning games consistently or risk being out of the playoffs
Anxiously awaiting the day my username will be appropriate
yeah, mathematically
and also we can’t assume the teams that have worse records than us right now aren’t going to get better. Same goes for the teams that have better records
the only comforting thing is the atlantic is rather weak
a good run at some point could put us over philly. boston looks freaking terrible this year. pierce and garnett are about ready for the glue factory (pierce might just need to lose weight though)
Anxiously awaiting the day my username will be appropriate
Don't worry, we know how this works!
Slip into the playoffs as the 8th seed, beat the Heat in the first round, make a run to the Finals… all this has happened before and all this will happen again…
oh yeah, i forgot this was supposed to happen
if the giants will the superbowl and 99 repeats itself (except we beat the spurs this time) then i am actually quitting school and spending the rest of my life partying because the mayans were definitely right and the world is definitely ending.
Anxiously awaiting the day my username will be appropriate
How is this team different than the team B4 the Melo trade?
by I know smart people on Jan 16, 2012 4:45 PM EST reply actions
because the pre-melo team had an identity
pick and roll with amare and felton with decent shooters on the wings. this team has nothing. two big men one of whom plays like an overgrown shooting guard without excellent spacing and a point guard while the other has no offensive game whatsoever. crappy, crappy back court where we are depending on a rookie to run our offense. horrific depth where a second round pick rookie might be our best bench players . jared jeffries might be our second best.
Anxiously awaiting the day my username will be appropriate
by knickswin on Jan 16, 2012 4:58 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Jared Jeffries Shot Tracker
Jeffries was 2-3 today for 6 points, raising his FG% to .300
Fun Fact: The Knicks are now 4-11 when Jeffries finishes a game 2-3 from the field
Home of the Jared Jeffries Shot Tracker
We really need 3 point shooters
I don’t know why Novak didn’t enter the game especially when Amar’e wasn’t playing well. I didn’t think losing Shawne would hurt us that much but it would be nice to have players that can knock down shots right now
disagree. bad management. If Poop or other shooters (Gallo, Chandler) were so important
why are they gone (and this not a plea things past). Amar’e’s midrange was deadly last year. Perhaps practicing was more important than more rips on his arms and shoulders. Bully’s a great shooter when he can get his spot but that’s about it. I don’t know what to think about Landry Fields and will still have questions til we get a PG that can get guys spaced and involved and get them the ball where they get off good shots. TD hasn’t been the same since the shoulder injury and I never saw him as a clutch shooter in crunch time.
The Knicks need everything!
Wouldn’t it be cool if when the Baron Davis is injected into the starting line-up they continue to play as miserably as they have been? It would be so refreshing..
Isn’t it daunting how opposing teams seem to hit shots no mattter wether the Knicks have a hand in their face and/or are playing tough defense or not?
New Jersey has a point guard and the team sucks.. Let’s go rob them!
Very disappointed the Knicks lost this afternoon. I’m also disappointed I missed the game
Did this dude just did this?
Someone please explain
Our big 3 who are payed 47 mil a year gets constantly beaten by teams of 47 mil a year total. Someone knows why?
PS Dont repeat the same old story of non training camp and lack of PG…. oh yes, and the return of BD…. Only Chandler is earning his money, at least he gives 100% in every game.
I think this team sucks, there is no love among them, no excitement, no goal…
Chandler stops the pick and roll but we still can't run a pick and roll in the 4th
We can’t shoot. People complain we didn’t put in Novak but if he’d brick one they’d be " why we put him in?" I’m not even sure Melo and Amar’e have chemistry off the court. Our leaders not leading (trying to take over games is not leading). To parrot your sentinment, we suck (right now). But I’m staying tuned. Even if it’s in vain, I am always optimistic we figure it out. 3 – 4 more games and then I start worrying. A little. But I am curious about Melo and Amar’e. Amar’e just seems angry and all the time…is it just me?
This team has not improved since the Melo Trade
Because that’s the point when D’antoni decided to give up on getting an extension. He’s just waiting out his contract. The Knicks are playing lame for a lame duck coach.
The Knicks might as well start interviewing people like Ewing.
W/e
Just find a coach who knows how to handle 3 elite big men instead of a PG run game.
At the heart is the effort being put forth
People will be whistling a different tune when Davis comes back and DOES NOT significantly alter the effort put forth on the court.
If you seriously think anyone on this team other than Jeffries...
is playing up to their talent level then you need to stop sticking your finger up your nose so far
I think Toney Douglas and Landry Fields are not very good NBA players
and that it’s not possible to be a good ball club with zero starting-quality players in your backcourt, period.
Don't give me that BS
Fields was an All- Rookie First Teamer
TD may not be a starter but he has more talent than he’s demonstrating right now.
Rookie teams don't mean shit
Neither is a starting quality-NBA player on a good team, that much is inarguable
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_All-Rookie_First_Team
Just stop. You’ve lost and are making a fool of yourself.
i agree with flossy (for once)
fields kind of benefited from a good situation last year. he has a limited skill set.
Anxiously awaiting the day my username will be appropriate
Wait, did you really think I didn't *believe you* that he'd made the rookie team?
Or do you just not see that Landry was playing above his head for a few months, and his stats were the product of a system that we don’t play anymore? He’s barely a 2-guard at all much less a starter on a decent team.
You said that Rookie team didn't matter
I provided a list of all-stars who were once on rookie teams. It matters. Better judges of basketball quality have said so for DECADES.
D’Antoni’s system? Where are all the Suns rookies from his tenure there? Or Douglas? Oh – that’s right you really meant the horrifically overrated system built around Steve Nash.
Wow! You mean to tell me that future all-stars are often good as rookies??
You’re blowin’ my mind dude! But take another look at that list. Do the names Mike Miller, Morris Peterson, Darius Miles, Marc Jackson, Drew Gooden, Charlie Villanueva, Channing Frye, Jorge Garbajosa, Randy Foye, Al Thornton etc. etc. mean anything to you?
I’ll give you a hint, they are former all-rookie team players from the past ten years who, like Landry Fields, are not fit to be starters on a decent NBA team.
Landry started games last year ’cause our only other option was Bill Walker. He took advantage and thrived in a wide-open uptempo system by being opportunistic and getting a lot of rebounds. Now we play a slower game and have an actual center so his rebounding is not valuable and his lack of ball-handling or shooting ability and slow-footed defense are being exposed.
On any other team he would be coming off the bench, period.
The point was Landry Fields was an NBA player
Who is in very good company among all-rookies.
You’re trying to make a tangential point because you had no refutation of the original point. Try again.
i really don't think landry is a starting player in the nba
bad ball handling, can’t shoot (even worse, won’t shoot), kind of slow, not a powerful finisher.
Anxiously awaiting the day my username will be appropriate
My original point, that you refuted
is that Landry Fields is not a very good NBA player and is not fit to start on a good NBA team. He’s in the company of Channing Frye in the club of Knick rookies who made the rookie team but are bench players at best.
channing isn't so bad
he didn’t become tim duncan like half of knicks nation thought he would (i CERTAINLY did not) but he is alright.
Anxiously awaiting the day my username will be appropriate
Is he a starter on a good team?
I rest my case.
he is a rotation player on a good team at least
and maybe a starter depending on what type of big men he plays with (he spaces the floor very well).
landry, i am not so sure about. i don’t know if he’s a rotation player on a bad team. he might be d league material at this point.
Anxiously awaiting the day my username will be appropriate
that's the thing
they’re not three elite “big men” . . . more like three “elite” tall guys. this isn’t andrew bynum and pau gasol. this is tyson chandler and amare stoudemire. no post game to be found between the two of them. baron has more of a post game than they do, ha! it’s very hard to run a system with those two on the floor at the same time.
Anxiously awaiting the day my username will be appropriate
tell that to dirk nowtizki, pau gasol, andrew bynum, kevin garnett, paul pierce,
tim duncan, shaq, rasheed wallace, kobe bryant, hakeem olajuwon, and michael jordan
they’re all mighty good post players if you ask me. obviously some of them also play from the mid range and perimeter (mj, kobe, pierce, garnett, dirk)
Anxiously awaiting the day my username will be appropriate
Hahaha, um, Jordan and Hakeem done been retired for 12 years dude, that's my point
Rasheed Wallace, Dirk, Garnett, are or were basically jump shooters by the time their team experienced any success. Having one post move to fall back on (fallaway jumper) in your old age doesn’t make you a beast on the block. It’s obviously possible to be a dominant post player a la Duncan, and it’s also possible to consistently drop 30 point games on Tim Duncan as a pick and roll big man, a al Amar’e.
Pointlessly fetishizing low-post play will get you nowhere with this team, you have to play to the strengths of your personnel. If we’d signed Shaq or Duncan in their primes and then decided to play an exclusively PnR-based offense it would have been retarded. If we’d traded for Melo and decided to only run him off screens a la Reggie or Rip Hamilton, it would be retarded. The way we are using our elite big men right now—and they are elite at what they do—is idiotic.
there is a pretty consistent trend of post play winning championships . . .
i like steve nash as much as the next guy, and i do think that 2007 would have been his years if it hadn’t been for the BS suspensions, but there is a lot, a lot of evidence for post play being an integral part of a championship team. the 2007 suns would have been the exception, and they had one of the most incredible play making point guards of all time.
when you play in the post you draw double teams, freeing up your teammates and allowing for things like ball movement and player motion. so you not only score efficiently but you open things up for your teammates.
i understand that when d’antoni has the proper players for his system, the pick and roll kind of functions in the same way. but again, i do not think this is the roster for that system. it is the system for amare unless he starts to play in the post (and he HAS shown the capability to play back to the basket a bit in the past), but i think it would be best to move amare.
Anxiously awaiting the day my username will be appropriate
and i am of the opinion that you work the system to fit around your best player
not the other way around, but i know you disagree with me on that one
Anxiously awaiting the day my username will be appropriate
PnR does all of the things you ascribe to post play
Good teams need to incorporate both. Since Carmelo Anthony could easily get 25/game as a wing player in an uptempo PnR-centric offense, there is no reason to throw Amar’e out with the bath water because he hasn’t (and won’t, btw) morph into the second coming of Tim Duncan overnight. Carmelo needs to adjust his game for the good of the team.
i have said before
that if what ends up happening is baron brings amare back to life through the pick and roll and carmelo becomes mr. wing guy, i will live with it. that means amare and carmelo are thriving to some degree at the same time, and that’s a good thing. i understand that d’antoni is sticking to this system partially because amare is incapable of thriving in most others.
but i am not so sure that is going to happen. we will see we will see. baron is not known for his pick and roll prowess and he’s a total wild card, and we’re still a weak shooting team which affects spacing. if baron comes back and we still suck, i don’t think there can be much doubt the best option would be to move amare for a player who thrives playing next to carmelo.
Anxiously awaiting the day my username will be appropriate
I that case this team was poorly put together and the onus is on management
for wasting our past 3 years with pipe dreams
The onus is absolutely on the management.
ours must be among the worst in the league still. I dont know a lot about any other team’s management or ownership, but it must be
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