Toney Douglas is back at point guard for now.
by Seth on Jan 29, 2012 11:55 AM EST
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PrintFirst point of business: Baron Davis's rehabilitation-- the conditioning part, not the spinal part-- is taking longer than expected and he might not be ready for another week or two. Shame on us, I suppose, for buying into the hype generated by reporters* while Mike D'Antoni and Baron himself were pretty consistently broadcasting an air of caution. Anyway, that hopefully means that Davis will be closer to prepared for a full serving of minutes when he takes the floor, but one never really knows.
Meanwhile, Toney Douglas made a handful of useful dribble drives last night and looked to be a slightly superior point guard to Iman Shumpert. That's a bit like saying "this swarm of eels that I've knotted together nose-to-tail makes a slightly better belt than a bunch of paperclips", but it's still a meaningful difference. D'Antoni himself commented on his two young non-point guards:
"Toney’s been playing the point guard better than Shump,’’ D’Antoni said before the game. "I think that today his best position will be the 2 or 3. He did a good job guarding LeBron James [Friday]. He’s learning the league. We’re learning where to play him. The 1 spot is not a natural one. It’s too much.’’
Indeed, Shump's looked a lot better playing as a two or as a three in a small lineup, and has defended his counterparts at those spots better as well. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Shump is off the ball entirely from here forward. Mike Bibby's been healthy for a few games in a row (woo!) and Jeremy Lin finally got to spin last night and looked to be at about Douglas's level as a point guard-- perhaps slightly better at getting into the paint off the dribble-- so perhaps he'll continue to get minutes at the one as well. Shit, it wouldn't be surprising if he ends up starting at some point. Yes. Jeremy Lin.
Don't rush, Baron, but uh...don't dawdle either. We'll just have to keep being patient, I suppose. (Or keep hyperventilating and demanding that Mike D'Antoni be ground up into dog food. Whatever works for you).
*Update: I've been in touch with Howard Beck since writing this post, and he makes the fair point that D'Antoni himself suggested that as soon as Davis was good to practice, he'd be ready to get spot minutes. It was harsh of me to put the blame for the Davis hype on the beat guys, who are merely the messengers. Sorry!
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I suspect Lin gets D'antonied
And either sits the bench the rest of the season or plays some weird position like SF. He can’t shoot which is usually means no playing time on D’antoni’s team.
If he can contribute, he'll play
I don’t know if you’re watching the games and/or paying attention, but everyone on the team is shooting poorly.
Yeah D'Antoni has shown a tendency to not play guys this season....
Except for when he’s given every single player on our team to actually play some minutes on the team.
And SF? What are you talking about? When has D’Antoni played guys radically out of position when he’s had other options?
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If you haven't noticed hardly anyone can shoot on this team
the Knicks are one of the worst shooting teams in the league.
by Robert Curre on Jan 30, 2012 10:03 AM EST up reply actions
What is D'Antoni watching?
Douglas played pretty well against Miami, but even then he only made a good “PG play” like 3-4 times. Him playing well was him making shots (which he didn’t do that great, look at how many he took and missed). I agree Shump isn’t a natural PG, but I actually think he plays the position better than Toney. TD dribbles with his head down and never finds the open man. At this point I’d rather play Lin or Bibby at PG than TD.
by hvino on Jan 29, 2012 12:26 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
yes
Lin and Bibby are our only PG’s, let them play and see what the other guys do around them
2012 New York Mets, World Series Champions!
Agreed....
The 2 guard as 1 guard experiment should be over.
jesus
toney douglas back at point guard? are we sure they aren’t deliberately tanking so bad that the pick protection kicks in?
who do we start
shump cant play PG
Bibby is and cant do much
Lin just escaped the D-League… in fact he’s our most likely candidate at the moment.
This. Is. Sad.
Especially considering other than PG, i think the roster isn’t a bad team at all.
Heat also had Lebron and Wade.
I’m sorry, but Melo and Amar’e can’t compare, especially on the defensive end.
"Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."
LET'S GO RANGERS!!!
And on the Distributing/Ball Handling end
Both guys get 6ish (or more) apg, pretty effortlessly. Amar’e especially isn’t close to that, and Melo hasn’t shown the willingness or ability to do it either.
I'm not much of a Melo defender but I do watch the games and would hopefully give credit where do
I would like to somehow see the numbers of how many assists are left on the floor because a group of normally good 3 pt shooters suddenly can’t hit an open shot this season. He stops distributing pretty much at the time this team has, since last season, had trouble holding it together. Fom about the 4 minute mark in the 3rd quarter on. It just so happens to coincide with TD running the O. There are a few players on this team that can start hot but not maintain it. They tend to fade badly and fall apart when teams apply the pressure at the ends of games. We also tend to not be able to play a decent blend of inside outside game because we don’t have the playmakers on the floor to do the job nor the quality shooting to spread the floor. We can complain about taking too many threes but that is on the players settling because they can’t get the ball inside. And when they do they can’t finish.
Uh, Heat nailed Bibby to the bench in the playoffs
So if by “did alright” you mean “lost all his playing time to Mario Chalmers and Carlos Arroyo,” then yes.
I forgot by what measure, but Bibby was statistically the worst guy in the entire playoffs last year.
Also he was a spot up shooter and not their primarily ball handler. Watch more basketball.
So your argument is that the primary ball handler should be TD over Bibby?
And yes Bibby did alright on the Heat. So what if loses playing time to better players. Right now he is losing playing to TD???? Give me a break and stop rooting for the coach’s lapdogs Walker, Jeffries and TD. They’re all equally bad compared to other players on the team
escaped the D-League?
he went there for one game and owned
2012 New York Mets, World Series Champions!
Point Guard is easily the most important position on the court
especially in this system. and we don t have one.
I wish there would have been some way to keep Billups… I mean Chandler is simply the man so I can’t see where we could have made the sacrifice… but this is a team without a Quarterback. Receivers are just running routes with no clue what to do
No way
Center, PF and then SF/SG is. Go find me a championship team without a ridiculously good player at that position. I dare you.
Last year's championship team had a HOFer at PG
they beat a team with Mario Chalmers at PG. Do you just try to be wrong all the time?
Um, that team also had Dirk and Tyson and PF and C, the two most important positions he listed…
so, you are kind of proving his point in a way.
"Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."
LET'S GO RANGERS!!!
Pretty much every championship team has elite players
But there is zero chance the Mavs win the finals without good PG play.
if Center were the most important piece of a team
than the Magic would have multiple championships by now. If the PG wasn’t super important, then Boston would not have needed Rondo. Bron would’ve won in Cleveland. Only Kobe can win w.o a PG in today’s game
2012 New York Mets, World Series Champions!
http://www.iamagm.com/news/2012/01/29/sixers.inquire.about.trade.availability.amare.stoudemire?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
I just heard the Sixers inquire about an Amare trade:
My proposed Trade:
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=74m2nc6
Turner,Brand, and a 1st round pick (and maybe another pick) for Amare and douglas (will be willing to include walker to sweeten deal if neccessary).
We have to get a 1st round pick from the regardless. We can take brand and turner or lou williams and 1st for pick. We know the benefits for the knicks.
Sixers get Amare. Amare might play better for them with Iggy being a better and greater passer than Melo. Sixers get their first go to guy since my man AI (would love you on the knicks).
Line-Up with healthy baron, jorts and Melo:
Baron/Shump/Lin/Bibby
Turner/Fields/Shump/(Walker if here
Melo/Fields/Shump/Balkman
Brand/Jorts/Jefferies/Novak/Jordan
Tyson/Jordan/Jorts/Jefferies
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=6r4wq67
Another trade could be Iggy and Sweet Lou for Amare and Douglas (doubt we get a pick but would be okay if it was a second round.)
Sixers get their go to man in Amare and.. douglas. a guy who can score in bunches (when there’s a blue man). Willing to include walker for a second round pick or first. This also allows the sixers to use turner more.
Knicks get two good players in sweet lou and Iggy. Both a good passer. Iggy needs no explanation. Sweet Lou can score in bunches and run the offense at times.
Line-Up with healthy baron, jorts and Melo:
Baron/Sweet Lou/Shump/Lin
Iggy/Sweet Lou/Fields/Shump/(Walker if here)
Melo/Iggy/Fields/Shump/Balkman
Jorts/Melo/Jordan/Jefferies/Novak
Tyson/Jordan/Jorts/Jefferies
The first trade seems a lot more logical but the second one allows our backcourt to become a strength. There may be a problem with minutes for fields, iggy, sweet lou, baron, and shump in the backcourt. A problem I won’t mind having. Another problem is pf. I like Jorts but I don’t he can produce like Amare but then again amare struggles and jorts is a stretch 4. I recommend we do another trade with one of the five players in the new potential backcourt for a good cheap pf or first round/second pick. The first trade is okay though.
Unless its for an all-star
I don’t want to see a trade from the Knicks until the team crashes with someone other than D’antoni manning the ship.
I see.
I think the trade (especially the second one) does benefit the team. We get two capable pg players in iggy and lou. We need a pg and d’antoni is a pg whisperer.
true.
I still like iggy, sweet lou, and kmart if we can sign him over amare, walker, and douglas.
But I see the trade (if it goes down) being amare and douglas for brand, turner, and a first round pick. Hopefully we will use our heads and go after gilbert areanas or AI to play point/sg. I don’t care about their past and the knicks shouldn’t either. After all, they signed Shanwe Williams and his past.
Felton played better on the Nuggets?!
Can you pass whatever you’re smoking?
D'Antoni juice?
Felton w/ the Knicks: 16 points 8.5 assists per 36
With the Nuggets: 13 points, 7.4 assists per 36, and he had his playing time cut.
Per 36 is such a meaningless stat basis
His shooting percentage went up, his rebounding rate went up, and if given a full time on the court it is incredibly likely that he would have matched his assist and point totals. To be blunt: he was far more efficient on the Denver Nuggets.
No, it's actually the only way to compare production when a player's minutes flucate
His shooting percentage went up one whole percentage point, wow! Can you say small sample size? Can you say rebounding rate means fuck-all coming from a PG who gets a whopping 3rpg? He was so awesome that he was benched immediately in favor of Ty Lawson. So awesome! You’re so smart.
Actually by any statistical measure you look at he was almost exactly the same
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/f/feltora01.html
You seem to struggle with facts though..
Felton and Duhon were before nor after ever better than when they played for Mike
And you don’t need per to see it. Just watch the games. Look at Felton when he started with the Knicks and where he was when he left. He left a better player.
I tihkn Felton has more or less always been very good
I think if he was given a chance to get healthy, his numbers would have bounced back up to his November-December performance when he was here.
In Charlotte he always had the talent, but never the system, nor the teammates (for the most part).
In Denver, he didn’t start, but he was always on the floor at the end of games (if it was close, of course), and they had him out there to sort of mentor Ty Lawson.
And in Portland he’s doing really well even though his numbers don’t really reflect it
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I don't think his shooting has really ever picked up since being injured here
Pretty much like TD now…lack of depth is a killer. Fair points but I don’t think he’s better now. I have never thought exceptionally high of Felton either though.Good, but not very good.
and then he got traded
2012 New York Mets, World Series Champions!
A roster becomes deep and versatile.
Allowing us to go out with a iggy, fields,melo,jorts,and Tyson lineup sometimes.
the average hieght would be about 6’8/6’9
These trades would be awful for Philly
They probably offered Brand for Amare straight up to see if we’re desperate or stupid.
I think the Knicks FO has proven beyond any reasonable doubt
that it they are both desperate and stupid.
To be fair, the Knicks owner proved that
Otherwise, the last two years we’ve drafted very well, picked up Tyson Chandler which is still a worthwhile move in my opinion, and were able to Davis as a FA for the vet’s min. before Miami or LA got him.
The people in the Knicks front office weren’t really the ones that wanted to go through with the Melo trade as it came to be, which is what I assume you’re referring to
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Eh
I wouldn’t call the front office blameless. We’re done okay in the draft—Jordan Hill was a bust, Shumpert is still too early to call. They’ve found good value in low picks, but to the extend that drafting is a strength, they’ve negated it by trading away every draft pick possible. I think Donnie overpaid somewhat to clear cap, whiffed on LeBron, obviously the Melo trade was a fiasco though the blame lies mostly with Dolan.
Tyson Chandler has played well, but I think it’s too early too early to call it a good move. I actually think using our amnesty that early on Billups and spending all that dough on a center was definitely desperate and possibly stupid. Sam Dalembert was a free agent this offseason too and is giving the Rockets virtually identical production to Chandler, but on a 1 year deal for half as much. But signing Chandler for $14 mil per has locked us into a roster set-up where we can either have a good PG or good center but not both. And we chose a center. And oops, it turns out the team plays like watery shit without a PG. And we used our amnesty…
I think the drafting has been good
Fields is still a rotational player, if not a starter, Shumpert looks good and has already been one of the best players on the team, Harrellson looks like an NBA player too.
And c’mon, let’s be honest, there’s a difference between Tyson Chandler and Sam Dalembert, even if their production and stats might be similar, and I think we both know that.
As far as the PG goes, it’s the easiest spot to fill in the NBA. It just so happens the ones we’ve accumulated have all been sucky at it. But we’ll have the MLE next year, which gives us a shot at Steve Nash or Mo Williams or maybe Jameer Nelson. I mean, those guys for the most part aren’t world-beaters, but they’re certainly competent. Hell, I feel that Luke Ridnour could handle this shit right now, so I’m not worried about the lack of a PG going forward.
If really necessary, the pieces we have – our “Big 3” – are pretty easily movable. You might not get a package like the Nuggets got for Melo by trading any of them, but you could get some decent players to at least avoid a full-on rebuilding project.
I just think if it’s too early to call some things successful, it’s also too early to call ourselves damned
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I said the drafting has been okay
but this
And c’mon, let’s be honest, there’s a difference between Tyson Chandler and Sam Dalembert, even if their production and stats might be similar, and I think we both know that.
You think Tyson Chandler is twice as good as Sam Dalembert? ‘Cause he gets paid twice as much. More to the point, do you think Tyson Chandler and no PG is better than Sam Dalember and Chauncey Billups? Given what Houston ultimately paid ($7mil with only 1 year guaranteed) I’m sure we could have got him for the full MLE for 2 years, and kept an above-average PG.
I don’t think PG is that easy a position to fill—how long has it been since the Knicks have gone more than half a season with a decent PG? Jameer Nelson is not very good, Mo Williams will get more than the MLE, and I see no reason to assume Nash is coming, especially if we don’t re-up D’Antoni. Without an above-average PG this team is going nowhere…
We didn't have the full MLE
So Dalembert wasn’t even an option. We were looking at the likes of a center rotation of Turiaf, Jorts, Amar’e, Jerome Jordan, and Aaron Gray. Hell, I was beginning to talk myself into thinking a Turiaf-Nazr Mohammed rotation would suffice. And while I certainly do miss the presence of Billups as a real PG, if he were here, our defense would be absolute shit.
I don’t want to argue about the chances of getting certain players or how good certain players are, but I’m just saying that the MLE can certainly grab at least an average PG, which is better than anything we have now. Hell, maybe Baron Davis will be willing to accept it if he shows something this season.
Think of all of the good PGs there are in the league. The game has become guard-dominated, and with each season you usually see a point guard get some recognition for playing well and it’s usually just as a result of becoming more experienced and getting more time. Of course, a lot of it depends on luck – getting a good player to come here at all – but I don’t think we’re necessarily doomed in the department.
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Flossy you do realize that Watery shit is fluid.
which is far more than we can say for this offense.
by Robert Curre on Jan 30, 2012 4:39 PM EST up reply actions
Interesting trade, but...
That article is quoting a RealGM article. And that article was actually about how the Sixers inquired about Amare when he was with the Suns.
Also the Sixers have pretty much no reason to do this trade right now.
The ONLY way I even consider a trade with Philly
is if Jrue Holiday and some picks are involved.
Nay
against trades right now all together but if I had to take anything from Philly it’d have been Holiday/Speights, a first rd pick plus some filler. Speights aint around no more so that’s dead, Brand? I don’t trust him. I know his D has been good but if you insert him into this team defense which is still learning, I don’t trust his 6’8" stature, lack of length and vertical ability will mix well with larger opponents. I haven’t seen too much of Williams but from what I have seen of him he looks like the same type of shoot first PG we have now in TD. I mean he’s great now cause his shot is falling but as we see with TD, when it’s not falling, what are ya left with?
I could just be over thinking things but that’s how I feel about it.
sreh ladien e' ta janjia
by Lord Smackington on Jan 29, 2012 6:27 PM EST up reply actions
I'd take Thad Young
Dude’s a stud
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Have you guys watch the Knicks Now interview?
Lin has been given a chance to ever really practice with the team. He talks about this game being the first time ever being on the same team with Amare and Tyson. You have to give this guy some more credit than just being “a Toney Douglas pg”.
Some of these shots Lin may have been missed last night may have been because of his lack of understanding of his team (he may have wanted to pass first but don’t know who’s opened).
Lin can not shoot
Which is why he missed those shots.
No.
Lin can’t shoot. Then again neither can Rondo. Facts are Facts. And if you like D’antoni so much, you can go root for w/e team he ends up coaching in a few months. It won’t be the Knicks.
Lin can't shoot 3's, but he is better than last night
and he doesn’t have to. Just needs to find Amare n Tyson down low
2012 New York Mets, World Series Champions!
Why don't you just root for the Knicks, the team, regardless of who's coaching it
Some of us here are fans of the team, regardless of whether or not they’re winning, which has been the case for most of the past decade.
KNICKS NOW
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by WSD on Jan 29, 2012 7:43 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Sample size is too small to write off Lin as a shooter
He is currently shooting 44% and Douglas is shooting 32%. He has averaged 6 minutes per game and Douglas gets 24. His assist rate is also considerably higher than TDs.
Dump Melo
If that doesn't work dump Pringles
His turnovers are his achilles heal, especially on a team that is very good at turning the ball over
This isn't to say he shouldn't get burn though
I prefer guys get the lead out at game speed in real games and see what they have, just not when it comes to continuing when the player is clearly better served in another role such as in TD’s case. Problem is only having Lin as the only option behind Tony. Baron doesn’t count til he hits the floor.
It's way too early to really tell anything about Lin's game....
He’s barely played. When he has played he’s been trying too hard cause he’s more scared than a deer caught in the headlights. To see what he’s really capable of he would need a lot more meaningful minutes.
I agree here but I'm not sure he's scared as much as he's trying hard to prove himself
and forcing things that lead to missed baskets and turnovers…things that can be ironed out with time getting comfortable in the O
Yeah. I think it's probably both...
Trying too hard to impress as well as just nerves at playing in such a pressure cooked environment…
to be fair
its not like there has been a lot of practice time for him to get on the court with those guys.
last night was basically a pre-season game.
hopefully he starts to get some more burn.
I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."
Sigh
Here’s the thing. The player’s on this team are not at all the players needed for “D’Antoni’s system”. To be fair, there’s some players having bad shooting percentages that will most likely improve and revert back to their career shooting percentages. But we have no PG and a frighteningly small amount of shooters on this team ( the most heated discussion over here is whether to give TD or Jeremy Lin starter minutes. Seriously), so Pringles has to go back to the drawing board and start adapting to the personnel. We can fault the front office for screwing up, but what’s done is done and Pringles has to stop trying to force this team to play in a way that it’s not accustomed to.
I’m all for giving him this season to figure things out before playoff time, but people are going to be calling for his head if Carmelo and Baron come back and the team still sucks. Which is sad, really, cause there’s talent on this team. Yes, I think Amar’e and Carmelo can co-exist and yes I think this team will eventually make the playoffs.
New York Knicks = Sleeping Giants
This makes sense
Basketball math God Sebastian Pruiti ran some numbers and found that at PG, Shump has like a 1.01 PER, and a 23 PER at SG.
Also I do think Lin is a better shot creator than Toney.
His PER at PG is 7
at SG it’s 11. So it basically the difference between a super-sized shit sandwich, or just a large.
Toney Douglas is the worst qualifying point guard in the league with a 6.82 PER (.14 more than Jared Jeffries)
He is tied for second among all players in the “Estimated Wins Taken Away” stat with 1. He is shooting 32.3% from the field and 25.8% from 3 while averaging almost 11 shots per game, both figures worse than Shumpert. He has a 4:3 assist to turnover ratio that is more or less equal to Shumpert’s, but without causing turnovers like Shump does on the defensive end, while it. Jeremy Lin in his short time has also been superior in FG% and AST:TO.
by SweatbandProliferation on Jan 29, 2012 1:25 PM EST reply actions
Wow, this is friggin stupid.
Toney Douglas might be the worst player in the league right now and he get awarded his starter position back. D’Antoni is pissing me off. Ugh New York Knicks…we award Mediocrity.
You really think
Giving Lin is just garbage don’t you?
Of course Lin shouldn’t start, but Douglas start? Not again…
Iman should stay starter with possibly Lin taking Bibby’s minutes (whom Lin is a better version of Bibby defensive-wise, but less of a shooter).
Leonard Susskind, a plumber from the South Bronx
is now regarded as one of the greatest theoretical physicists of the last century. Curt Warner was dragged off the scrap heap of Arena League football and I think you know where he ended up. People fall through the cracks and then make it to the top in all walks of life all the time.
Dump Melo
If that doesn't work dump Pringles
No
all the time
Not all the time. Very, very rarely actually. Which is why the two anecdotes you mentioned are by far exceptions to the rule.
it's more rare in sports, though we could probably sit here and list dozens more
but it happens all the time.
2012 New York Mets, World Series Champions!
No, it doesn't
if it did, it would be unremarkable.
yes, people are unremarkable all the time
google people who came from nothing or people who were late bloomers and you will find some of the most amazing and influential people in the world. Not everyone is ready to be at their best by their young 20’s, doesn’t mean they won’t have a huge influence on the world or become great at what they do. You really can’t be serious
2012 New York Mets, World Series Champions!
except when there are so many exceptions to the rule
it kinda shows there is no rule
2012 New York Mets, World Series Champions!
tell me
about all the d-leaguers getting time in the league
"But when he saw it, he just put his hands up and they couldn’t give it to him. It just fell to the ground, I-I don’t, you know … So, that showed me he had great experience..." - Jeff Van Gundy
by Anthony Bonner's Subpoena on Jan 30, 2012 7:06 PM EST up reply actions
the comment was not just on sports, or NBA players who were once in the D-League (for one freaking game people!!!)
if it was, then I wouldn’t have said anything. It is on everyone, doing everything. How about a patent clerk whose University teachers thought he sucked, and who couldn’t even do the math for his own theory, yet got a nobel prize for the photoelectric effect and gave us General Relativity. There will always be stories upon stories of people who rose up from nothing to greatness.
2012 New York Mets, World Series Champions!
But seriously though, thanks for the lols
Choosing Albert motherfuckin Einstein as your example to illustrate the argument that stuff like that happens “all the time”… inspired. I tip my hat to you sir.
you said you wanted a physicist
let’s see – Mendel’s was a Friar and dad a farmer, Galileo didn’t have tools available to til his late 20’s, Johannes Kepler was Tycho Brahe’s bitch until he died and Kepler stole the data, Lamarck didn’t do anything til his late 30’s, Feynman and Penrose, who stayed inside during recess to catch up on work, were late bloomers, Nikola Tesla, Joan Birman went to grad school to become a mathematician in her forties, Terzaghi, Janet Rowley, Witten and those are just some of the best scientists off the top of my head who were either late bloomers and/or overcame poverty. We can talk about Shultz, Winfrey, Obama, Ford, Carnegie, Edison was a telegraph operator, Steve Nash was good but worked harder and became MVP at 30, both my parents were the first in their family to go to college and became pediatricians, I never studied a day in my life until after I ran away with a girl because I was nearly failing out of college and now I am close to getting a PhD in Astrophysics.
this list could literally go on and on and on, but I already wasted 2 minutes writing down those names, they weren’t hard to come up with. As YuckFou said, people make themselves out of nothing, or rise way beyond expectations, all the time
2012 New York Mets, World Series Champions!
That list is entirely besides the point
nobody is suggesting it is literally not possible to overcome odds, succeed late in life or what have you. You could list examples until you’re blue in the face. The overwhelming trend is that people don’t overcome those odds nor exceed expectations. That why those odds/expectations exist in the first place. For every dozen examples of successful scientists or Steve Nashes you can list, there are literally millions of anonymous failures. That is why those success stories are remarkable in the first place. Not because they’re commonplace. Because they’re not commonplace at all.
Back the the original point, people on this website have a tendency to fallaciously confuse the best possible scenario as the the likely outcome when evaluating scrubs. Draft Kenneth Faried, he might be the next Dennis Rodman! Play Jeremy Lin, he might be the basketball equivalent of Kurt Warner!
Only thing is
We’re speaking of giving him Bibby’s minutes. No one is saying he’ll be the answer and start, but something more useful than calling him a “d-league” caliber player and leaving him on the bench.
Saying he should get 3rd string PG minutes
is not quite the same as calling him a Kurt Warner-esque suprise.
Really, if you lose
it doesn’t matter by how much. You don’t get points for trying. At least with Lin playing more (no, not starting) you develop a guy how may, just may, become the 2nd best PG on the team.
already is the 2nd best PG on the team
if last night is any indicatiion
2012 New York Mets, World Series Champions!
Alright...
Cue yet another infuriating week of basketball. Baron, get up to speed….soon!
by robk on Jan 29, 2012 2:18 PM EST via mobile reply actions
how bout a Lin/Shump backcourt when Melo gets healthy
put Shump on the better or bigger guy of the other teams guards on defense and let Lin run the O.
Actually, I think Lin could help Fields a lot too. The only Knick who doesn’t need a real PG to score is Melo
2012 New York Mets, World Series Champions!
Sure why not
It’s just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. No team starting Jeremy Lin and Iman Shumpert is going to make the playoffs, so if Baron Davis doesn’t come back soon and kill it we can start Spike Lee and a Knicks City Dancer at the 1 and 2 and it won’t make a difference.
not expecting Lin to start, but if he plays similar to last night than he should back up capably
while BOOM rests his back some and gets his conditioning in order.
With Shump and Tyson playing solid D, Lin finding Amare on the PnR, Melo relied on less for the point forward, the Knicks would be at the 7-8 seed in this currently pathetic conference. Call me crazy, but I still believe in this ‘big 3’ of ours, we just need actual, close to the expected contributions from all 3 and right now only Tyson is performing that way
2012 New York Mets, World Series Champions!
I meant after BOOM gets back
a few more games leading the team in assists while playing 20 minutes and Lin will be starting if BOOM ain’t back
2012 New York Mets, World Series Champions!
Honestly
With Shump and Tyson playing solid D, Lin finding Amare on the PnR, Melo relied on less for the point forward
It took Raymond Felton, who is mediocre in the grand scheme of things but still a lot better than Jeremy Lin, a full preseason and weeks of games to develop PnR chemistry with Amar’e. And if you think Melo is going to hand over the ball to Jeremy freakin’ Lin so that he and Stat can re-focus the offense on the PnR, I think you are stone crazy. The only reason Baron offers a glimmer of hope, despite his many possible pitfalls, is that he has the talent and stature to truly run an offense rather than walk the ball up and hand off to Melo as Lin inevitably will.
in his first time on the court with Amare last night
Lin had a beautiful PnR to Amare in their short time out there
2012 New York Mets, World Series Champions!
One PnR in garbage time
is different than being able to execute that play game after game, against other team’s starters and when defenses are keying on it. Shump has had a few nice PnR plays with Amar’e too, yet he’s sucked at PG overall. Besides, I have serious doubts that Jeremy Lin has what it takes to actually orchestrate a whole offense, control the tempo, distribute shots and manage egos, etc. So PnR play is really the least of his problems.
Even Chris Duhon did well at PG under D'Antoni
I realize Duhon is a better player (which isn’t really praise) but as long as Lin doesn’t get any serious burn (10-15 minutes backing up Shump or TD) & doesn’t shoot much (I’m pretty sure I saw Lin throw a layup off the top of the backboard against the Kings) it can’t hurt to play him when Melo is sitting & Amar’e should be the focus of the offense. Running pick & rolls would be better than Amar’e trying to drive & turn the ball over as soon as the defense collapses on him or his teammates ignoring him to jack up contested 3’s.
If Lin sucks in extended minutes & against much better talent (which I have a feeling he definitely will) D’Antoni can banish him to the end of the bench & we all can go back to hoping Baron Davis will save this dumpster fire of a season (he won’t).
by DontShootToneyNOOO on Jan 29, 2012 9:46 PM EST up reply actions
Sample size is too small
You may be right but Lin should be given the chance to prove or disprove himself. 6 minutes per game is not enough time.
Dump Melo
If that doesn't work dump Pringles
I don't get where the evidence is for Jeremy Lin's suckage.
The guy was a really good player for an ivy league team, and was not highly rated out of college (kind of like Landry Fields). He was in the Warriors camp, and stuck. He was on a team behind Monta Ellis and Curry, didn’t get much playing time. Then he got dropped so that they could sign DeAndre Jordan to an offer sheet. Then, they tried to get him back, but the Knicks signed him.
When has Lin ever been given a chance to be part of a regular rotation? Douglas has been given several chances to prove he’s an NBA PG, and hasn’t. Why are you so sure Lin sucks? I sometimes think that guys that are first round picks are given 100 chances, and guys that aren’t can’t even get one.
Get The Frickin' Rebound
In the last 10 years, how many undrafted PGs have gone on to start on playoff teams?
or even get major minutes? Do you seriously think Lin is the answer for our severely messed up team? Honestly, I just think you have to look at anyone who was not drafted at all sucking until proven otherwise. I certainly hope he doesn’t suck but I’m being realistic, whereas a lot of people around here at all “Jeremy Lin!!” just because things look so dire right now.
when has there never been an exception to the rule?
2012 New York Mets, World Series Champions!
You must be kidding
I advise you to see my new favorite movie Moneyball. Practically the entire roster of the 2002 Oakland A’s was picked off the scrapheap. The movie makes some interesting points on professional sport’s talent evaluation.
We all know the stories of Curt Warner, Tom Brady, Carlos Boozer and others. Off hand I cannot think of a point guard but I certainly wouldn’t be surprised if Lin had a good measure of success. What I find more amazing is how many people are ready to dismiss the guy without giving him any chance at all.
Dump Melo
If that doesn't work dump Pringles
have you read any of my comments?
and did you understand what I said when I wrote that? Read again, I was implying that there are ALWAYS exceptions to the rule
2012 New York Mets, World Series Champions!
sorry, Of course you are correct
I just get worked up when I perceive injustice. At the very least Lin has earned the chance to fail. To write him off because of his draft position or because he was dropped by some other team, or played in the D League makes no sense to me. Why even have a D League if everyone in it is worthless?
I hate losing more than I love winning -- Billy Beane
I was going to say Rafer Alston
but it turns out the Bucks drafted him in the 2nd round.
But holy shit if anyone thinks Jeremy Lin should be starting or getting more than limited backup minutes. There’s a reason he was in the D-League & was riding the pine in GS. For a stopgap experiment at the point until Baron can limp into this mess maybe, but Jeremy Lin is lucky to be in the league at all, which says a lot about how screwed the Knicks are.
by DontShootToneyNOOO on Jan 30, 2012 12:05 AM EST up reply actions
Jeremy shouldn't be starting
Who would be idiotic to let an inexperienced pg start. but wouldn’t it be smart to give Bibby’s minutes to Lin and let him develop into a backup point guard which the Knicks can possibly use?
Yes, there was a reason he was sent to the D-League, for one game
MDA wanted him to get in a game before he started using him up here.
And there is a reason he was riding the pine in GS, two actually, their names are Stephen Curry and Monta Ellis
2012 New York Mets, World Series Champions!
Flossy are you a Knick fan?
One of the Knicks legacy, John Starks, was a undrafted guard. What ever happened to him?
Was one of the best Knicks 6-man and was even selected to the 1994 all-star.
But of course
That was more than 10 years ago…
I worry about him too, it is a SSS and he has flaws
My feelings this entire time have been that the PG situation sucks and waiting around for BOOM is not the best answer. I just hope that Lin is given the same opportunities to fail as others have, and even moreso hope that he can go out there, penetrate and dish or run the PnR will Amare/Tyson. I just gotta believe in something good coming out of all this rather than assume he sucks and write him and the team off. But look at my sig, that says all you need to know about me – I am the most loyal fan out there for the people/teams I love
2012 New York Mets, World Series Champions!
lin is FAR FAR FAR FAR more useful than bibby...
not even close. bibby does not provide leadership. nor is he hitting 3’s. nor does he play defense. nor does he settle down the team and dictate pace. nor does he… well, he’s just done.
lin, at the very least, will make the defense move, drive and dish, draw some fouls, grab some boards and push the tempo.
Agree, I think we may have reached the point
Where if Lin comes in and does well, D’Antoni looks like an idiot for not playing him sooner.
Dump Melo
If that doesn't work dump Pringles
Not because Lin is so great
Just because everyone else is really, really unqualified.
I remember Bibby in his early days, being more of a combo guard/sixth man, rather than a pure point.
Get The Frickin' Rebound
The Great Baron Tease trick . . .
I would say the majority of us predicted that a good portion of the season would be known as “The Great Baron Tease.” This is a clever little trick designed to give fans a little hope, ie., a light at the end of the tunnel.
Part of this trick is that once the “return” date approaches, then you make some BS reason to move it to a later date, then when that date approaches, you move it ahead some more, and so on. Lather, rinse, repeat.
We have seen this numerous times.
Perhaps we may see the slight variation of the “Great Baron Tease.” During this variation, Baron does actually take the court for a couple games, then of course his back or some other injury develops. Baron sits out, but the fans still have that hope he returns. He does eventually return, then reaggravates something, sits out, and the cycle continues.
If executed to perfection, the plan can perhaps save a coach’s job or stifle an irate fan base.
We are too smart for this shell game! Do not fall into their trap!
by TheKnicksAreBack on Jan 29, 2012 7:32 PM EST reply actions
WWTDD
SUCKS.
''Why would I want to help them win a title? They're not doing anything for me. I'm at risk. I have a lot of risk here. I got my family to feed.'' -LS the REAL#8
Charley Rosen sums it all up nicely
Still, Douglas is basically a grade-school level point, so, if Tyson Chandler is a huge plus, the Knicks emptied out their bench to procure Anthony, and they’ve done little to refill the vacuum. Despite the local media hype, unless more drastic measures are taken to obtain serviceable substitutes, there’s no way the Knicks could ever get past, Chicago, Miami or Boston in the playoffs.
Look for another frustrating season in the Big Apple, and for Mike D’Antoni to become the first casualty.
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