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Around SBN: Ray Allen Fighting Age, Injury And His New Role

Raptors 90, Knicks 85: "Seemed like video game basketball to me."

Folks tend to make video game allusions when basketball gets sublime, which means they must be considerably better at video games than I am. When I play a basketball game, I get bored and impatient and resort to emptying my bench, heaving rim-bound threes, neglecting defensive responsibilities, and slinging mistimed, misplaced alley-oops. Rubbercons must not game that capably either, because he had the same impressions in the post-game thread. The Knicks-- down some bodies in game five of a hastily mobilized season (I need to install a key that types out that whole phrase)-- relied upon the zaniest bunch of fellows imaginable, and those fellows played impulsive, hyperbolic basketball peppered with mere spasms of discernment. It felt precisely like video game basketball, and I say that as someone who wins video games rarely and only by accident.

This Knicks team is weeks away from being full-grown, but that doesn't mean it has to just languish-- nor play video games-- during its gawky adolescence. Hell, I think I saw glimmers of how this team might adapt to its situation right in this very loss. Take the jump.

Star-divide

- An outing that contains 35 three-pointers (45 percent of the total takes) gives us the full range of three-point looks. We saw some truly reprehensible, arrhythmic takes, we saw some noble misses, and we saw some buckets that were sure things at the moment of release. We're plenty familiar with the former kinds, but that last type deserves some attention. When the outside game really got rolling, it tended to emerge from plays that had at least crossed into the painted area. In the first quarter, when Carmelo Anthony was cookin' soup, and in the third, when Toney Douglas did what Toney Douglas do, baskets got assisted or hockey-assisted by passers who'd crossed below the free throw line and behind the defense. Shooters received the ball from the same direction as the rim, finding themselves already squared up for a quick, fluid release. That type of three-pointer doesn't bother me at all, even when Landry Fields and Josh Harrellson can't get it to drop. If it was up to me, I'd institute a rule: You can't shoot a ball that hasn't touched the paint. Kick-outs, secondary breaks, extra passes, and swings to the weak side all strike me as valid progenitors of a three-point attempt. Side-to-side dribbling and stagnation do not. So, while the "live by the three, die by the three" maxim is undeniable, (and could easily have been our headline) I'd assert that the ones that sustain the Knicks bear little resemblance to the ones that kill them.

- That said, Fields really ought to hit those and Jorts either needs to hit 'em or report promptly to the painted area.

- One good way to fulfill my rule about touching the paint is to get out in transition. There were a few plays in which folks threw snappy outlets off long rebounds and turnovers to cherry-pickers (I specifically remember Fields throwing one to Douglas) for easy baskets, or at least forays into the paint. It seemed to me that Douglas and company did exactly this to generate momentum in the third quarter, only to have it sapped when Mike Bibby entered the game and refrained from pushing the pace (although it's obviously not entirely on Bibby).

- Melo took some bad shots and hit a number of them. My only real objection to his liberal shot selection was when he occasionally squandered momentum with some impatient pull-ups in the second half. Then again, he hit a few of those, too.

- In my estimation, doubling a ball-handler works much better when there's a Knick playing goalie. It requires some timely footwork, but a play in which Josh Harrellson traps the ball-handler and Tyson Chandler stays right in front of the rim to deter any inside looks should the trap get busted seems to work. Or at least it seems to work a lot better than an all-out ball-swarm that leaves the rim unprotected. This was something we saw only in spurts.

- Transition D as well: Give up a jump shot if you must, but get somebody in front of the rim.

- And while trapping seems to work at the right time and with the right approach, I just can't comprehend the straight switches. Why Harrellson can be roped into an individual stand against Jose Calderon is beyond me, especially when it comes with nary a pick. It seems like every time two Knicks cross paths, they trade assignments. Eventually I'll just be inured to the mindless switching and it won't eat at my very being.

- Very video game-y: A couple of lobs for Tyson Chandler that got tossed without consent from said Tyson Chandler. It's encouraging to see guys thinking about the lob, but there's nothing like a ball sailing out of bounds four feet left of the backboard to remind you that the alleyman and oopman need to be in sync. The cohesion will come with practice (and, again, at least they're trying it), but tonight, some of the lobs looked borne of a stoned college student thumbing a greasy XBox controller. (Others were pretty excellent, like a Douglas-to-Chandler oop in the first quarter).

- After some struggles early, I thought Harrellson and Chandler did an adequate enough job on Andrea Bargnani. Barn-YAR-ni (<3 u Clyde) just hit some shots that only he can hit and drew some fouls that only he can draw.

- It was pretty cool to hear Dwane Casey gush about Chandler's presence on last year's Mavs during one of the pre-game interviews. The guy was just vomiting compliments.

- Meanwhile, in present day, Chandler needs to stay out of foul trouble. He's tall enough to make an impact without leaning or reaching.

- The Knicks, to my eye, ran a lot of useful weak-side baseline screens for Melo in the first quarter, then strayed from those later on. Or maybe the Ratpors did a better job of covering those screens.

- After an absolutely nauseating second period that saw lineups like Bibby-Douglas-Walker-Novak-Jordan and contained minutes-long stretches of emptiness, we learned that "this quarter was brought to [us] by Foot Locker", which strikes me as bad marketing. I may never visit a Foot Locker ever again as retribution for them bringing me such a horrid quarter of basketball. It's like sponsoring the bird shit on somebody's windshield.

- Man, even the Knicks' come back felt like a video game, now that I think about it. The way the Raptors kept coughing up the ball and rimming out easy shots seemed typical of a video game that's interfering with the action to keep the score close. New York played good defense, but still, there were darker forces at work.

- Not a terrible rebounding night, all things considered. Nice job drawing charges, too. Harrellson flops pretty nicely for a guy in jorts.

- By the way, have we entertained the possibility that Jorts is a never-nude?

- It's pretty harrowing to find yourself invested in a Mike Bibby/Steve Novak two-on-one fast break, especially when it ends with Novak, apparently magnetically repelled by the rim, zooming into the corner to brick a three-pointer.

- Had the Knicks come back to win, Jorts would have had the game's defining play with a blown trap-to-chase-down block of Amir Johnson's lay-up in crunch time.

- Because they lost, Harrellson's defining play was a routine dunk attempt that, if it weren't for a foul to muddy things, would have likely crossed through the rim from below. He didn't exactly nail the "gather".

That's really all I've got for now. This one felt so totally familiar that I didn't even get that worked up about it. I'm still fairly certain that this team, when fully staffed and fully steeped in each other's auras, will come into its own as a playoff-caliber entity. For the time being, bodies are scarce and the chemistry between them is lacking, but there are still proven methods of attack-- the inside-out offense and rim-conscious defense I rambled out above-- that might work even for an outfit populated by the likes of Steve Novak and Mike Bibby. These Knicks, from D'Antoni on down the line, aren't demonstrating the diligence to stick to those methods, and they're really playing like hogshit because of it.

Amar'e Stoudemire will hopefully be back soon and Iman Shumpert sounds ahead of schedule to the point that we might see him by week's end. Both, if their heads are on straight, have a lot to offer. The next game's on Wednesday against the Bobcats.

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Display:

On point as always - especially the hogshit line

With a frontcourt like this the foundation of the offense should be attacking the paint (just as the defense should be founded on defending the paint). Having that many 3 point shots is simply unacceptable. Long range shooting seems to work best when it occurs in the rhythm of a varied offense that not only provides open looks for good downtown shooters but also the confidence and flow necessary to consistently perform what is essentially the most finesse action there is in basketball.

by SweatbandProliferation on Jan 3, 2012 3:27 AM EST reply actions  

Gotta stay positive

Yes, this was a horrid performance. But this team isn’t the only one that looks out of sync, and when you think that they’d still be playing their last preseason game if it wasn’t for the lockout, things would be put into perspective. I’ll give them until mid-late February to figure things out. It’s going to be painful to watch at times until then though.

I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is that moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle - victorious.

Vince Lombardi

by moose35 on Jan 3, 2012 5:15 AM EST reply actions  

as much as I've called for d'antoni's head

as usual things are put into perspective once people settle down. I won’t give them till mid february though…

by PinoyKnickFan on Jan 3, 2012 5:56 AM EST reply actions  

Well, at least we got a good recap…

"Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

LET'S GO RANGERS!!!

by Moshe52792 on Jan 3, 2012 6:43 AM EST reply actions  

Stingy

I did a little quick dirty research, but posted it in the Game Thread.. Here it is in all of its horror:

“Being a 4th or 5th option

doesnt mean anything when his:

TRB% is HalF what it was last year. SSS, yes, but look at his Rebounds per month after the trade. (I couldnt figure out TRB% splits on BBRef)

114
103
96
66!!!
87

Those are his november thru march numbers, give or take the all-star game, those are the full months. Extreme regression

His turnovers stayed pretty constant… but his usage also went down. Not good.
His assists spiked in March, which is actually good considering the usage.

If you can find a way to say he is a good defender, I am all ears… Cause I just dont see it. He played a big role losing us this game down the stretch. Allowing Derozan to just go right to the hoop, and then the IDIOTIC foul on Bargniani on a contested shot. Really poor.

Proud die-hard of the NFC West Champion San Francisco 49ers!
Whose got it better than us??? NOBODY!

by MetsKnicksRutgers on Jan 2, 2012 9:24 PM PST up reply actions"

“Edit

the 66 Reb month was only 10 games, but…

In march he played 18 games and only had 87. November, December, and january he played 16, 13, and 15 games respectively, and killed it rebounding wise. Don’t get me wrong, last year Landry was a downright godsend… But, i rarely get to say this, but I saw the regressino coming in January, and it has continued through the beginning of the season. It is now the majority of his pro career. if last season was flipped and he started off like he finished, he never would have sniffed any PT. The guy has gotten a pass for a lotta bad play, and really when Walker is the only one who can back him up right now, what is there really to do? I would say we should go with a bigger lineup with Melo at the 2, and run a damn zone… But what the hell do i know

Proud die-hard of the NFC West Champion San Francisco 49ers!
Whose got it better than us??? NOBODY!

by MetsKnicksRutgers on Jan 2, 2012 9:28 PM PST up reply actions"

You know I like you man, it’s just a debate and nothing personal. I just see everything about him dropping, not just points per, TS%, and eFG%, but also everything else and I can’t give him a pass anymore.

Proud die-hard of the NFC West Champion San Francisco 49ers!
Whose got it better than us??? NOBODY!

by MetsKnicksRutgers on Jan 3, 2012 7:54 AM EST reply actions  

well, i'm not gonna convince you that fields is good

but he is. and i’ll try anyway. he’s a smart and talented player, a good teammate and an incredible value.

i’m also not gonna get wrapped up in those numbers. i’ve been trying to say that everything changed once the melo trade decimated our depth. it was tough for everyone to figure out, especially the rookie. who was clearly out of gas by the time we got to the all star break anyway.

this year, the team has played like a team for about 6 quarters of basketball. and our (hopeful) floor leader has yet to play in a game. fields bulked up, which tends to affect one’s shot negatively. it also has helped him contend with guys at the 2, because he is typically bigger, and now stronger.

nevertheless, he’s not a 2. he’s actually a natural 4! but could be utilized effectively as a back up 3. dziedzic can absolutely fuck off immediately. but looking up and down the lineup- i don’t see a better option. bill walker? nope, no chance- jumper might be better, but the dribble is shaky, the defense is all heels, and every time he drives he gets an offensive foul. shumpert? i dunno, seems too early to trust him, especially right now, coming off an injured knee (of all the things it could be, damn)! toney? sure, but that takes scoring-off-the-bench well… off the bench. and we still need to wait for baron to get back to shift him over anyway! so where else do we turn? bibby? lin? uhhhh, put novak in and shift melo down to the 2?? can melo stick with 2’s on defense?

ok- so you still hate him. you want to trade him. he makes the league minimum, and we are over the cap. what kinds of value will you really get back? furthermore, what type of chemistry issues will need to be ironed out afterward? really, just back to square one.

i dunno… i guess i’m not expecting the knicks to win a championship this year. but i’m hoping they can make some noise in the playoffs, get some valuable experience, test our mettle, make a few additions in the offseason. hey, maybe ray allen will want to hang out for a year. maybe steve nash. maybe money is not a concern for them.

if we can make it to the finals this year, i consider that a minor miracle. however, next year, i expect to be contending. and i would hope the management is smart enough to establish the continuity it takes to allow room for growth.

/// aighttho.com \\/// twitter.com/aighttho \\

by stingy d on Jan 3, 2012 10:11 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

i would hope the management is smart enough to establish the continuity it takes to allow room for growth.

Everything in there sounds like common sense to me but that there is the gem I think not enough people are picking up on. Continuity and Growth! They do make a difference and yet those are the intangible assets that get bartered with every trade we make both good and bad.

sreh ladien e' ta janjia

by Lord Smackington on Jan 3, 2012 11:02 AM EST up reply actions  

True dat

Continuity and growth. It really can do wonders. Works better with some real clear floor leadership though. When I lived in LA I joined a regular game, a bunch of guys that had been playing together a while. They were not super athletes but they understood fundamentals and played good D. They seemed to neutralize my game. I was totally lost for weeks. One week this guy was a captain for one of the teams, and he was just one of those point guard type of players. He picked me for his team and gave me some guidance and encouragement, helped me get to the right spots and do some good things on the floor, and from then on I think I helped my team. I think it’s similar to what Felton did for Fields. Fields hustles, he doesn’t pout, he’s not selfish, and he’s not allergic to D, and he has some skills. To me, he’ll flourish again when directed by a floor leader.

Get The Frickin' Rebound

by fuhry on Jan 3, 2012 11:37 AM EST up reply actions  

Felton <3

And yeah, Fields has already shown glimpses of improving from his poor second half last year. Dude’s gotta figure it out still.

But he had a great game against the Kings, and has shown about one solid quarter in each game of figuring it out. I have a feeling we won’t even be complaining once he gets that 3-ball rolling, because otherwise, he’s doing fine. We’ve already seen him drive to the hoop for some nice dunks and layups this season, he’s pasing better than last year, and his defense is at least average

KNICKS NOW
http://nyknicksnow.blogspot.com/ - check it out!

by WSD on Jan 3, 2012 12:12 PM EST up reply actions  

and the confidence is there

he doesn’t seem distraught by mistakes, because he is confident he will correct them. so despite a bad stretch when we really needed him, he hasn’t lost himself.

/// aighttho.com \/// twitter.com/aighttho \

by stingy d on Jan 3, 2012 12:18 PM EST up reply actions  

ill admit

That he is pretty damn athletic. If his open 3s start falling, he’d be fine. But it hasn’t been falling for a while. The fact he is so athletic is what is kinda disappointing. IMO his defense should be better, and I wish he was hitting the boards like he was the first 3 months last year. That could be an issue of fatigue much more than the trade.

Proud die-hard of the NFC West Champion San Francisco 49ers!
Whose got it better than us??? NOBODY!

by MetsKnicksRutgers on Jan 3, 2012 12:59 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I think it's also a result of game planning

His first couple of months in the league, teams didn’t know what to expect from him. He was rebounding like crazy, but opposing coaches obviously adjusted and game planned to keep him off the boards.

Get The Frickin' Rebound

by fuhry on Jan 3, 2012 1:05 PM EST up reply actions  

good point

real easy example

he used to sneak in to the lane on free throws a couple times a game, every game. now he can’t really do that.

/// aighttho.com \/// twitter.com/aighttho \

by stingy d on Jan 3, 2012 1:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Really

a 2nd round steal should be Melo’esque by his second year. Didn’t you get a memo?

Fields has gone beyond most fans expectations from his draft and because of that some P&T folks have given newer ones ?!?

Fickle.

Fields is a good player, better then he should be from where he was taken and salary. Most importantly he doesn’t need to hold onto the ball to contribute to this team.

I think what rubs me the worse way is people honestly believe that Walker is better…

My Wife is a Patriot's fan...

by Giantssincesix on Jan 3, 2012 12:03 PM EST up reply actions  

hey man, i got the memo

i think we should dump melo for rasual butler.

/// aighttho.com \/// twitter.com/aighttho \

by stingy d on Jan 3, 2012 12:09 PM EST up reply actions  

obviously didnt read

What I said. I stated he was a “godsend last year.” Do I expect somebody to improve? Well, from his numbers January on, hell yes I do. For a 2nd round pick, he is incredibly good, that doesn’t make him a starter. Many here are just blindly giving him a pass cause they like the Guy.

His usage has gone down yet

His turnovers are up… how is that possible?
His TS% is way down yet again with a lower usage. The more one shoots, the harder it is to keep that number up, the less someone shoots the easier.
His rebounds are way down despite more minutes and less time with the ball. Again how is that possible? Isn’t he supposed to be moving without the ball cuz he is such a heady player, and crashing the offensive boards?

We don’t have anybody better right now, but shump is probably an upgrade. Walker bibby td and Lin most def are not.

Lastly, I’d Landry wants 2/15 next year do you give it to him? I sure as hell wouldn’t. That’d be outlaw esque

Proud die-hard of the NFC West Champion San Francisco 49ers!
Whose got it better than us??? NOBODY!

by MetsKnicksRutgers on Jan 3, 2012 12:54 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

are you joking?

landry might get 3 or 4 million a year. MIGHT!

but look man, you’re harping on fields, but for some reason giving the team’s lack of ball movement a pass (no pun intended). fields is not much of a creator, obviously. but he is absolutely the kind of guy you want on your team.

is he the penultimate 2 guard on this team? no. is he the right guy for the job right at this very moment? yes.

/// aighttho.com \/// twitter.com/aighttho \

by stingy d on Jan 3, 2012 1:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Dude

Outlaw is a career 9/4 guy. 9 and fucking 4 on 43% shooting. He got 5/35/ Al Harrington also got 5/35. You are kidding yourself if a ROY runner up who made < 1 million his first 2 years isn’t gonna take the biggest deal offered to him. He will most definitely get at least 5 if he plays anywhere near how he played the first 3 months of 2010-11.

Proud die-hard of the NFC West Champion San Francisco 49ers!
Whose got it better than us??? NOBODY!

by MetsKnicksRutgers on Jan 3, 2012 7:27 PM EST up reply actions  

And there is plenty of blame

and harping to go around, but NOBODY gets a pass like Fields does. TD, gets destroyed by this board (despite the love he got last year), Melo gets killed for his performance last night. How was Melo torn apart yet Fields again is given leeway by the hivemind. The only person I think should get a pass is Melo. I feel bad for the guy, even last night when he didnt shoot well he got to the line so much that he almost had an efficient night when combined with his 3 pt. shooting. That dude is really giving it all, whereas Fields, sometimes I can’t tell if his head is in the game, what with the TO’s and porous D. Alas, Fields is most definitely not the only cuplrit here either, but he is rarely the one called out on it.

Proud die-hard of the NFC West Champion San Francisco 49ers!
Whose got it better than us??? NOBODY!

by MetsKnicksRutgers on Jan 3, 2012 7:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Dear MetsKnicksRutgers

You do not seem to understand usage rate. Usage rate reflects the amount of possessions a player uses to attempt to score. it does not reflect the amount of time a player has the ball. Using usage rate to correlate to a players turnovers ony really works for an extremely high usage player like Lebron, Carmelo, or Kobe and even then not perfectly. An explanation for his turnovers may actually be that he is being asked to do things that put him at more risk to commit turnovers.

As for his TS% you again cannot correlate that with usage rate, because all usage rate tells you is how often he looks to shoot and not the quality of shot he is taking. Fields’ TS% hasopped and will continue to drop as long as the Knicks do nt run an efficient offense that allows him to get high percentage looks. So it does not matter how many shots he takes but the quality of his looks. Now Fields has not been taking as many good looks as before.

As for rebounding rate, especially offensive rebounds, there is a concept in basketball called floor balance. When Gallinari played for the Knicks because he spent so much time not only at the 3 pt. line but in the slot he was available to get back which gave Fields more Freedom to chase after offensive boards. With the present line up Fields cannot and should not do that nearly as much because if he fails to grab the rebound the Knicks will give up 2 on 1s all game. So now unless it is a long rebound or he already finds himself under the basket, when the shot goes up he needs to get back to protect against a 2 on 1.

by Robert Curre on Jan 3, 2012 1:32 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Usage Rate

is any time a player ends a possession… Turnover, Pts or assist as far as i know

Proud die-hard of the NFC West Champion San Francisco 49ers!
Whose got it better than us??? NOBODY!

by MetsKnicksRutgers on Jan 3, 2012 7:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Usage rate according to basketball reference is the percentage of team plays

a player uses while on the floor. That is different than any time a player ends a possession. For example a player who does not have the ball in his hands can end a possession by committing a 3 second violation, or by committing a foul such as a moving screen. It is widely accepted that usage rate refers to attempts to score. That is what is meant by using team plays. If Landry Fields is attempting to feed Carmelo in the post and throws a bad pass, it is considered a turnover, but doesn’t go against his usage rate because technically he wasn’t using the play, but was just a facilitator in a play for someone else. Now if Fields is attempting to drive to the basket and commits a charge or dribbles the ball out of bounds then it counts as usage because it can be assumed he was attempting to score.

by Robert Curre on Jan 4, 2012 10:49 AM EST up reply actions  

Kinda close

Usage percentage is an estimate of the percentage of team plays used by a player while he was on the floor.

That is much more than just a player attempting to score. Its ending a possession. He is ending less possessions, but turning it over more in those. Rebounds and USG% may not correlate here, but despite this… his rebounds are nevertheless down. I’m kinda trying to figure out why that is. I don’t believe he is a bad player, but I really don’t think he is nearly as good as many here think. There really isnt much to defend him with anymore.

Proud die-hard of the NFC West Champion San Francisco 49ers!
Whose got it better than us??? NOBODY!

by MetsKnicksRutgers on Jan 3, 2012 7:25 PM EST up reply actions  

His rebounds are down because his offensive rebounds are down and those are down

because the personnel on the floor gives him less freedom to chase down misses. Gallo played small forward but functioned more like a 2 guard in the offense, this gave Fields more freedom to chase boards. he hasn’t had that since the Carmelo trade. It is called being a team player. If Fields was continuing to chase offensive rebounds his team would give up a fast break every time he failed to grab the board.

by Robert Curre on Jan 4, 2012 10:53 AM EST up reply actions  

How about you compare Fields' drop off

with Amare?

What if its worse?

Maybe the lockout and new teammates (yet again) has something to do with it?

My Wife is a Patriot's fan...

by Giantssincesix on Jan 3, 2012 1:50 PM EST up reply actions  

not gonna get wrapped up in numbers?

Like rebounds, turnovers and TS%? They are pretty basic and self evident. Not exactly WS48, strict counting stats with the exception of TS which is commonly accepted as the best state for shooting

Proud die-hard of the NFC West Champion San Francisco 49ers!
Whose got it better than us??? NOBODY!

by MetsKnicksRutgers on Jan 3, 2012 1:04 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

yea, not gonna get wrapped up in the numbers

its kinda no way for a rol player to get good advanced stats when the team at large is playing bad basketball.

/// aighttho.com \/// twitter.com/aighttho \

by stingy d on Jan 3, 2012 1:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Our bench

was poo. Really, really bad. Our starters were the only reason we hung in this game.

My Wife is a Patriot's fan...

by Giantssincesix on Jan 3, 2012 8:12 AM EST reply actions  

The last play

From berman today, this seems concerning. On the last play that douglas seemed to be a little out of sync on, D’Antoni said, “we forgot the play.” But,

When told D’Antoni said they forgot the play, Douglas was confused.
“It was get Melo the ball at the end of the day,‘’ Douglas said. "The play was to give him the ball. The game is so quick.’’

D’Antoni would not specify what Douglas did wrong when asked. Anthony didn’t know either.

“Coach told me to go quick,’’ Anthony said. “That was the shot we wanted to go for. I asked him a two or a three, and he said whatever I wanted to go for at the time.”

I mean, doesn’t that seem strange? That D’Antoni wouldn’t draw up a clearer play for the last possession, or at least make sure it was clear what he wanted? It seems like the whole game he was content to let the whole team stand around while melo worked. I don’t understand it.

by Jackaroe on Jan 3, 2012 8:32 AM EST reply actions  

Im glad you reminded me.

I was going to post about this until i had a brainfart last night. But yea. When Pringles wasnt yelling at Bully for fucking up a play or not shooting an open shot…the one other time that stood out to me was the ending play when he was getting on Toney. From the sideline I heard him say, “that wasnt the play Toney”. And at the beginning of the last timeout we took. He said “now run the damn play” while emotionally scribbling that same play that we were supposed to run of the prev timeout which resulted in a off rythem 3 pointer from melo.

Anyways..if that didn tmake sense. On the play your referring to, I believe Toney messed up from jump when coming off screens for the inbound pass. Which resulted in him getting the ball in a different position from w hich the play was drawn up. So from there he just got Melo the ball becuase like he said

"It was get Melo the ball at the end of the day,‘’

"they try to do what he do, and been where he's been, but they get folded in two.....he's the dude"

by semsemma on Jan 3, 2012 9:26 AM EST up reply actions  

Ah thanks

That’s clearer now. But I don’t know, it just got so painful watching 3-4 guys EVERY possession (except the third and some of the 4th quarter) literally just stand there, watching…I mean, aside from that being about energy level and effort, they just seemed clueless. Shouldn’t that be on D’Antoni?

D’Antoni said something else that irked me in the post-game…someone asked, “about how many 3’s do you want the team to take a game?” And he answered, “Oh, I don’t know, there’s not a set number, we want to make them all.” Which, just, I don’t know. He seemed to not understand a question based on the premise of taking a limited number of 3’s.

/This is not a fire D’Antoni rant.

by Jackaroe on Jan 3, 2012 9:37 AM EST up reply actions  

I do think D'antoni is more of a big picture guy

and tends not to get into specifics about who is supposed to do what on offense. He likes the players to figure it out from the general principles he lays out. This can lead to guys playing very free, with a great flow and great adaptation to defensive schemes. But it also can result in a team of guys who are used to more guidance standing around.

In short, I think D’antoni in particular needs a very headstrong point guard on the floor.

Get The Frickin' Rebound

by fuhry on Jan 3, 2012 9:41 AM EST up reply actions  

That irked you?

The question was a tad bit stupid. If a team takes 45 3s in a game and they hit 30 no one asked such a question. It is when a team doesn’t hit that the question is asked. Really the issue is not about the 3 point shots, but quality of shots and the execution of the offense as a whole. Actually had I been asked such a question by a reporter I would have ripped the guys head off and shoved it up his ass, so D’antoni should be given props for actually trying to answer what is basically a question that reveals how much said reporter doesn’t understand about basketball.

by Robert Curre on Jan 3, 2012 1:42 PM EST up reply actions  

I'll disagree....

Based on personnel, 3FG%, opponent’s defensive scheme, etc., D’Antoni should have some idea of how many three’s he would like to see. The reporter used this question as another way of asking whether the team seems to be trending toward taking too many three’s. The question as asked actually shows D’Antoni a little consideration, as it would be more blunt to say, “Do you think that the team is taking too many three’s these days?”

by chin8tao on Jan 3, 2012 8:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Dantoni wants them to take any and every three as long as they are open

do you think he knows how many times a game the opposing team plans to arrive late from help or get caught up in screens in order to give us open looks? Last I checked Miss Cleo wasn’t one of our assistant coaches but that might make a helluva tv show if she were!

sreh ladien e' ta janjia

by Lord Smackington on Jan 3, 2012 9:55 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

nice!

rec’d.

Get The Frickin' Rebound

by fuhry on Jan 3, 2012 10:53 PM EST up reply actions  

You do not play basketball apparently because if you did you would know that

there is no way to predict the number of 3pt shot attempts your team will take. Do you really believe that coaches say, No more than 15 3 point shots tonight fellas. If they did then after the shot the 15th the other team could just play zone and pack the paint because that team will not shoot even if open from 3. Basketball is not football, where offensive coordinators script out the number of running plays and passing plays they plan to call. If you have guys on the floor who can hit 3’s and the get one they believe they make they are going to take them. It is why even on a team that shoots a lot of 3’s like the Knicks can vary widely from game to game. And no it was not consideration it was trolling since the question was asked by Mitch Lawrence. Who has been a long critic of D’Antoni’s offense taking 3’s.

by Robert Curre on Jan 4, 2012 10:59 AM EST up reply actions  

You guys are WAAAY too literal.

All I am saying is that it is within D’Antoni’s power to urge the team to shoot the three either more or less frequently.

Also, it is D’Antoni’s job to analyze the patterns that the other team is exhibiting during the game. From those patterns, D’Antoni should be able to figure out whether the other team is TENDING to arrive late from help or TENDING to get caught on screens.

Analysis does not require psychic ability. It merely requires observation and thought – two things that are as lacking from this string of posts as they are from D’Antoni’s skill set.

Finally, just because someone is critical of the coach, that doesn’t mean he won’t show the guy some consideration. Trolling would be saying, "The team took way too many three’s today. Was that part of your gameplan? If so, why did you keep letting them do it when they clearly were off? If not, then why can’t you control your players?

by chin8tao on Jan 5, 2012 9:12 PM EST up reply actions  

I just got a feeling this team's gonna play .500 ball for the first month of the season

they’re just such a cluster fuck. I don’t mean to pat myself on the back, but that’s just the perfect way to describe everything about the Knicks…a cluster fuck. We’re the NY Cluster Fucks for the foreseeable future

Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows

by Rorschach44 on Jan 3, 2012 8:55 AM EST reply actions  

lol

I feel the same way.

My Wife is a Patriot's fan...

by Giantssincesix on Jan 3, 2012 9:47 AM EST up reply actions  

Im very impressed with Jorts defense.

Its like, hes less athletic than David Lee was ( yes not b/c hes white) , but knows how to position himself very well and DOESNT foul. He contests shots while going “straight up” and does it very well. I like him to remain as a solid part of the rotation when Jeffries comes back.

And Seth, I couldnt agree with you more on how you wrote about Novak being repelled by the rim. I was like…“why in the hell didnt he continue the fast break towards the paint???”

"they try to do what he do, and been where he's been, but they get folded in two.....he's the dude"

by semsemma on Jan 3, 2012 9:30 AM EST reply actions  

I actually think Jorts is deceptively athletic

He’s very good at starting and stopping.

Get The Frickin' Rebound

by fuhry on Jan 3, 2012 9:37 AM EST up reply actions  

he's very Jake Ballarad'esque

Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows

by Rorschach44 on Jan 3, 2012 9:50 AM EST up reply actions  

Nice

Thanks for making us a contender, Donnie.

by StarksMiddleFinger on Jan 3, 2012 4:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Melo was also noticeably tired

fairly early in the game. Shouldering the bulk of the offensive load, being asked to do additional rebounding and defending, possibly a little point-forward, and the trip from east to west and back again had him pretty worn down, I think.

There was a funky line-up on the court, but there were three players (STAT, Shump, Davis) there would have put those guys on the bench. It would be nice to win when three guys that should get significant minutes are watching the game, but it is what it is.

by rzor on Jan 3, 2012 10:14 AM EST reply actions  

Then he needs to get into better shape. This is what he came here to do, be the man.

Now he is in a set up to be the man, so it is time to show and prove. Scoring rebounding, playing defense, and getting shots for your team mates is called being a Superstar, it is why you get 80 million for 4 years in the NBA. Anthony was personally offended this off-season when that SI reporter told him that he ranked him as the 20th best player in the league. Well if he is the top 5 guy he believes himself to be then he should be able to handle all of the things a top 5 player should be asked to do, especially when a team is a tad bit depleted by injury. Not a criticism just stating a fact. Want the guy from SI to see you as the man, then be THE MAN!

by Robert Curre on Jan 3, 2012 1:48 PM EST up reply actions  

yo that novak-bibby breakaway

you can’t call it a fast break.

was just horrendous. it was as if novak wanted the defender to stay in the passing lane.

something thats killing me about this team right now is the way we force. its like- we SHOULD have some sort of advantage, but for whatever reason we don’t and rather than stop and set something up, we just jam it in. no bueno.

/// aighttho.com \\\/// twitter.com/aighttho \\\

by stingy d on Jan 3, 2012 10:19 AM EST reply actions  

yo bueno d'antoni

d,antoni hire was not a good move from the start.donnie walsh did a great job for the knicks though not perfect.2 moves he made i disagree with (1)hiring d’antoni was a big mistake (2)he gave up way too much for carmelo especially when he had the upper hand .as much as i want melo for this team i still wished we would have given up less for him.but anyway we will never win a title with d’antoni i hope he prove me wrong though.
how the hell do you have the team chucking up so much long shots one after the other and not put your foot down and tell them drive to the bucket.fire that idiot now cable king dolan.do any of u guys think we can really win with d’antoni

hustle and hustle with muscle

by bins12 on Jan 3, 2012 10:57 AM EST up reply actions  

lame

everybody is perfect all the time, everything anyone has ever done is always perfect without exception.

and it would be even more perfect to watch this team try to go against it’s perceived strengths to learn and un-learn another offensive and defensive scheme. we absolutely thrive on guess work and lack of continuity.

/// aighttho.com \/// twitter.com/aighttho \

by stingy d on Jan 3, 2012 11:20 AM EST up reply actions  

Guess Work

No one can know what would have been. That’s what makes these posts interesting – the idea that things would have been different, but for….

In that vein, my guess is that D’Antoni is the wrong coach for this city. As Robert Curre points-out below, maybe the Knicks didn’t have alot of choices back then. Well, now things are different. There is/will be an available coach that can make this team work in ways that D’Antoni cannot or will not.

As for continuity, I agree that it can be important; however, placing a premium on it is not always warranted. Continuity is a disaster when it means continuing to move in the wrong direction. Many will not agree, but I believe that the Knicks currently are moving in the wrong direction. Accordingly, continuity seems about as desirable as James Dolan in a negligee.

by chin8tao on Jan 3, 2012 9:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Who was the coach that was chomping at the bit to take the job back in 2008?

We were a 23 win team with a bunch of ill fitting parts, and a new GM who openly admitted to everyone who applied for the job, that he was gonna rape that guys winning percentage for the first two seasons. Personally I think D’Antoni screwed the fucking pooch by coming here. Rick Carlisle and Scott skiles told Donnie to kick rocks, Avery Johnson admitted that he was offered the job and basically told Donnie, HELL NO! Then there was Mark Jackson, trust me if Mark wants a long coaching career Donnie did him a favor. I still don’t have a clue why D’Antoni took this job especially since he could have had Chicago’s gig, and would have started out with a much better team. I wouldn’t have taken the job personally. Chicago was a year removed from makng the playoffs and only missed because half the damn team got hurt and they basically tuned out Scott Skiles (Who is really the son Demon Coach never had!) Now he didn’t know he was gonna have Rose but he was guaranteed to get no worse than like 4th which would have meant Westbrook at worst! I would have gone to Chicago, but I am not D’Antoni and I know more about the NY fan base and media than he apparently did.

by Robert Curre on Jan 3, 2012 1:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Chicago was slotted in at like the 9th overall pick that year

even though this is the Internet I haven’t looked it up, so I might be wrong. But I’m pretty sure their lotto chances were less than 2%.

by Dutchmarau on Jan 4, 2012 2:03 AM EST up reply actions  

The had the 2nd worst record in the league so we are both wrong it would have been

5th which means Kevin Love, which since Minny wanted Love they could have done the same trade and gotten OJ Mayo who really is more comfortable playing point guard. Again He had a team more suited to play his style and a fan base less trapped in basketball has to play one way. In chicago they don’t care how you play as long as you win. In NY not even winning and making the playoffs is good enough if it doesn’t come a certain way. It is how you win in NY not if you win that matters.

by Robert Curre on Jan 4, 2012 11:05 AM EST up reply actions  

"I'd institute a rule: You can't shoot a ball that hasn't touched the paint."

I’d love to see the Knicks adopt this rule. Sure, Amar’e was out of the game, but there’s no reason a team that’s so loaded in the frontcourt and weak in the backcourt should be shooting 45% of its shots from 3pt land.

by sisterray24 on Jan 3, 2012 11:37 AM EST reply actions  

Pretty soon

the other team will realize you have that rule, and exploit the rigidity. I actually dig D’antoni’s philosophy. I just think it needs a point guard.

Get The Frickin' Rebound

by fuhry on Jan 3, 2012 11:40 AM EST up reply actions  

Rigid?

D’Antoni’s philosophy is one thing. The current implementation of it is another.

For D’Antoni’s offense to work, you need a threat of penetration — that’s what creates open looks for the perimeter shooters. The Knicks don’t penetrate now, so they don’t get the open looks.

It is not “rigid” to play the game as it’s meant to be played: penetrate into the paint and, depending on whether the defense collapses on you or not, either drive to the hoop or hit the open man.

It is “rigid” to stick dogmatically to an offensive plan that’s not doing what it ought to. In this case, that’s chucking up the outside shot without having penetrated the paint, so that what should be your open look is just a contested longshot that you will miss. That rigidity is a reduction of D’Antoni’s offense to absurdity. And it’s D’Antoni’s failure to reset the offense here — despite the fact that everyone who’s watched a couple Knicks possessions sees what’s going wrong here — that makes his game so easy to exploit.

by sisterray24 on Jan 3, 2012 11:54 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

The Knicks are chucking too many out of rhythm 3's

But I think you’re assuming they are doing it because D’antoni told them to. I doubt he did anything of the sort.

From watching this team since D’antoni’s been coach, I think he tells them something like “Three point shots are good shots. If we can hit a few threes early, we can stretch the floor and create openings for efficient ball movement and dunks.”

I just don’t think it’s D’antoni’s style to be specific and to make rules like that. I think his philosophy is that if you let the players improvise, the offense will be less predictable and harder to stop. Which I think is cool, but it takes some time and a good floor leader.

Get The Frickin' Rebound

by fuhry on Jan 3, 2012 12:52 PM EST up reply actions  

also

everybody HAS to be ready to take the three, they gotta get it in their skulls. that way, when its all on the line, it should just come naturally to step up.

/// aighttho.com \/// twitter.com/aighttho \

by stingy d on Jan 3, 2012 12:54 PM EST up reply actions  

I think you have Dantoni nailed fuhry

I always likened his philosophy to Jazz in the sense that it was more freestyle and what mattered most was the big picture and end result of it all. I always cared to have more specifics and detail so whether that is a good or bad thing I’ll let others decide but I know no matter what style or system was implemented by whatever coach, the results would not be too far off from what they are now if not worse if you ask me.

Absolutely zero continuity this team has had.

So for any of you fawning over OKC or the Grizzlies or the Lakers, Celtics…etc…know that those guys are successful but have had cores that have had time to figure shit out and take their lumps so now they don’t have to.

sreh ladien e' ta janjia

by Lord Smackington on Jan 3, 2012 2:25 PM EST up reply actions  

How about Denver?

Is it the time they had to figure shit out that explains why they played well all last season and why they’re 4-2, despite playing the Lakers twice? Is that what accounts for their ability to play purposeful basketball instead of standing around waiting for someone to chuck up an unassisted, well-contested 3?

by sisterray24 on Jan 3, 2012 5:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Denver?

besides Anthony they didn’t part with anything they weren’t willing to lose already. They had already been grooming Lawson to take Billups spot so really with the exception of Anthony most of their core remained in tact.

Not only that but harvesting all our players made them incredibly deep as well.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Karl hand picked which Knicks players he wanted and started drawing up stuff before hand. I would have if it were me.

On top of all that, Denver didn’t jettison their starting point guard, hire a new defensive coach and try turning their forward into a point forward quite literally over night. I can’t be the only one to think those actions are all things that will need time to be adjusted to?

having said that, I don’t like the “three for all” going on either. Dantoni’s philosophy makes sense in principle but it looks terrible in execution for these Knicks. Now I’ve seen with my own two eyes the Knicks move the ball and create good looks for themselves and I don’t think I was hallucinating so I know they can do it. It just hasn’t been done consistently which is why practice, repetition and familiarity is paramount to this particular group.

sreh ladien e' ta janjia

by Lord Smackington on Jan 3, 2012 10:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Fair enough

All I’m saying is that time is not a necessary or a sufficient condition for making a team work. Denver tried 18 different starting lineups over the course of last year, but was still able to win 50 games. It’s not the time these lineups spent together that produced the wins; it’s the lineups themselves. Meanwhile, it’s fairly obvious that a stable team that has no talent or is thoroughly misconstructed is not going to improve significantly with time.

It’s certainly possible — indeed, likely! — that the Knicks will improve over time if they can figure shit out. But it’s not because of the time elapsed that they’d improve; it’d be because they have good, complementary talent, a good coach, and a good plan.

When Knicks fans complain about what we’ve been seeing on the floor over the first few games, it’s not because we don’t think the team has potential to get better with time. It’s because we’re not yet seeing much of the plan for how to improve just yet.

There are big questions still left unanswered: How can Stoudemire and Melo complement each other’s strengths instead of competing for possessions? Can the rebounding and interior defense be sufficiently improved from last year just by the addition of Chandler, or is more needed? Can D’Antoni adapt his offense to the reality of the team he has? What kind of basketball should this team be playing — the orthodox D’Antoni game he ran in Phoenix or the game played by the 80s Celtics or what?

As a fan, I’m thoroughly invested in these questions. While I understand that “time will tell” how they get answered, we should demand good prospective answers to these questions right away.

by sisterray24 on Jan 4, 2012 4:17 PM EST up reply actions  

There are only two ways to deal with these big questions

One: Making changes to the roster and/or coaches

or

Two: Coaching

That simple. You can use one method, the other method, or a combo of the two but that is what it boils down to.

I’m against method one, especially so early in the season but If it is a last resort then I’d co-sign. As of right now, I don’t see it.With the exception of a veteran team who can’t make it over the hump after several years of trying, I don’t ever see a reason why any team coming off a trip to the playoffs would want to shake things up unless it were absolutely certain a deal could be made that they could absolutely, undeniably make a move that would push them further.

In our case, are there better players out there beside Carmelo Anthony and Amare Stoudemire? Sure, not many but there are some out there. Dwight Howard for sure. Do we have any assets at all to pull off a trade and beat other teams offers? No. Even if we did is there any singular move that would replace one of our two current stars and automatically make us contenders? Again Howard is the only name I can think of that might come close to guaranteeing anything, not that it matters anyway.

So do we look at free agency? Well the best available name left on the market is probably Kenyon Martin sooooo, I mean he helped Denver so maybe he can guarantee we’ll get to the finals? I doubt it though.

Okay, So we fire Dantoni and get Phil Jackson to coach? Okay, If Phil even agreed to that I’m sure we’d still be going through the same shit now due to our players needing to learn a new sytem…which you know…takes time, the same time which right now apparently Dantoni doesn’t have so…If we fired Pringles and Phil turned us down? Then we’re left with Woodson who couldn’t do much with a pretty good Atlanta squad but he’ll be expected to manage the difficult, difficult mystery of getting Amare and Melo to work together…I mean unless that Dwight Howard trade goes through.

Method Two, is actual coaching which requires things like time for practices, time for evaluations, time to come up with strategies based upon those evaluations, time to implement said strategies and time to go back to square one if none of that shit ends up working.

Sure every team has these same time constraints but they don’t all have the same holes and problems that we have to fill in order to progress. The more holes you have, the more time needed to figure out how to plug them, especially when you don’t have the money or assets needed to exercise method one.

So we either make a change in the roster(not really possible) or you make a change in the coach (which is possible but doesn’t guarantee results, could actually make us worse) or you allow time to the current coach and current team to actually coach and play their way through their problems making adjustments as they go along, however long that may take. If we get to the half way point and it looks like we aren’t any better than we are now I understand calls for the coaches heads, trades and all the above but until then not only is it not practical, there’s pretty much nothing to do about it anyways.

sreh ladien e' ta janjia

by Lord Smackington on Jan 4, 2012 6:33 PM EST up reply actions  

No disagreement

I definitely don’t want to see another team-gutting trade, and I definitely don’t want to see D’Antoni fired midseason.

I would like to see the current talent we have make this team work. As you point out, that’ll be a gradual process over the course of the season. (Incidentally, that’s part of what makes watching the early games fun — seeing a premature team sort shit out on the way to becoming a playoff-caliber team.) But, as you also recognize, that’ll take more than just time: it means spending the time well, e.g. re-evaluating strategies, experimenting with new ones, faltering and learning from mistakes.

It’d be absurd for fans to demand a championship-caliber team on day 1. But it’s perfectly legitimate for fans to demand evidence that there are new strategies being implemented and that the team is learning from its mistakes all season long. So far, we’re seeing a bunch of bad mistakes get repeated a lot. Lessons like “an unassisted, well-contested 3 from 27’ out is not a good Plan A for an offense” should be getting learned over the next few games. That’s all I’m saying.

by sisterray24 on Jan 4, 2012 7:10 PM EST up reply actions  

you're absolutely right

I mean I hate the fact I can’t look away from these shitty train wreck games but like you said seeing these preemi teams sort shit out and develop is part of the appeal of me watching sports in general.

I never thought Dantoni was a genius but I don’t exactly think he’s a bum. I can’t even comprehend these rally cries for Phil Weber and Mike Woodson but I do think this coach needs to tighten the leash. I don’t know what that might entail, maybe he does need to sit someone to make an example, maybe he needs to throw some furniture, I don’t know but I’m like everyone else in that the sooner these guys start playing together the more comfortable I’ll be.

sreh ladien e' ta janjia

by Lord Smackington on Jan 4, 2012 11:14 PM EST up reply actions  

No assumptions made

D’Antoni could tell them to stop taking shots that everyone can agree are terrible, such as unassisted, well-contested 3s. If players refuse to listen, he could bench them. But he doesn’t. They play on, and continue chucking up terrible shots, to the dismay of fans and critics alike. D’Antoni must be held responsible for that.

Yeah, a properly running D’Antoni system does involve a lot of improvisation. But it doesn’t take much to see that this is not a properly running D’Antoni system. It is the most predictable basketball in the league, and has been extremely easy to stop (though, even the defense didn’t bother to stop it, it’s unlikely that it would produce positive results). That D’Antoni can’t contemplate asking his players to do something different — e.g. running a pick and roll, or passing to the inside, or cutting from time to time — reveals a stubbornness on his part, an inability to cope with reality. D’Antoni must be held responsible for that.

by sisterray24 on Jan 3, 2012 5:05 PM EST up reply actions  

So he's really a world renown con man who's in the midst of having squeezed

the NBA, Euro’s and Olympic committees for millions while peddling the script for the NBA version of Chuck. You mad bro. Here’s a thought. Maybe the onus is on management. You hire a coach with a specific system with the all in idea of completely blowing up the roster for new players and stars. The smart management thereafter blowing up the roster would then seed the roster with players that fit the system that allow the coach and system an opportunity to succeed.

Some 2 seasons later we’re still waiting for a finished product. Some people need to stop over rating the quality of depth on this roster and fit of its overall parts, which have not had the time to gel. It’s different when you have set players and bring in a coach that can get the best out of those players, We did the exact opposite. I’ll even say last season we had a developing point guard but were missing the Center/defensive leader. This year, in a very haphazard and very short season so far, we have a defensive leader/stopper but are missing the playmaker and Melo doesn’t count. Whether Baron Davis is the answer remains to be seen. But I think alot of posters either haven’t watched the games, the turnover, the lack of continuity or over the years of MDA or just don’t care cuz Marc berman tells them otherwise.

by screamedia on Jan 3, 2012 10:19 PM EST up reply actions  

I'll agree.

Management share much of the blame. At the end of the day, it is the coach that has to adapt his system to the players. That’s the difference between Pat Riley and almost every other coach that ever has been.

by chin8tao on Jan 5, 2012 9:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Dantoni will be held responsible come contract time

if he doesn’t get these players to get their shit straight, to me there is no doubt about that. The problem is that it is contract time and as much as he probably wants to bash in heads, we’re not incredibly deep in talent after our starting line up. I mean my god, where relying on Mike Bibby for a contribution here people! We might want Dantoni to pull some of these guys but Dantoni knows he can’t afford to pull starters out and/or alienate them during a year his contract needs to be renewed.

If he pulls TD for Lin, and it goes terribly wrong you don’t think he’s gonna get called into the office? The best thing for Dantoni to do for himself is not panic, let them get healthy and Iron out the wrinkles in practice hoping shit sticks come game time.

You may be cool with that or maybe not but if you’re not and the Dantoni vultures get a hold of his corpse then that Phil Jackson Hail Mary had better pay off because who else is gonna coach this team and be successful? Don’t give me no Mike Woodson of Atlanta Hawk lore.

sreh ladien e' ta janjia

by Lord Smackington on Jan 3, 2012 10:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Who else, indeed....

Fuck Phil Jackson. He can’t operate unless he has the best player in the league.

As I say elsewhere though, things can’t get much worse. That means that change will at least keep us where we are, so why not?

by chin8tao on Jan 5, 2012 9:18 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm not even opposed to shooting a ton of threes

I’d just like them to be better quality threes over a semi-collapsed defense.

by Seth on Jan 3, 2012 12:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Right

The problem is that these are unassisted, well-contested 3s. If the defense wants to go all-in on preventing points in the paint, then sure — let the frontcourt rack up a bunch of assists by connecting to the open 3pt shooter.

by sisterray24 on Jan 3, 2012 12:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, the threes have to be in rhythm

If you can get 30 in-rhythm 3 point attempts in a game, go for it. But if all you can get is those crappy, awkward, semi contested ones, try something else.

Get The Frickin' Rebound

by fuhry on Jan 3, 2012 12:55 PM EST up reply actions  

You are right seth but that means that a team has to have a point guard who realizes that he

has to execute an offense consistently and Toney Douglas does not have the experience to get a team settled down when things get frenetic. Does anyone here realize the guy has fewer than 30 starts in his career at point guard. He doesn’t seem to have that internal monitor that says, “geesh we have had 4 straight trips where we just jacked up shots, let me settle this thing down, get the guys into a set and run a damn play.” More than breaking things down off the dribble and making pretty no look passes, that is why you have a point guard on the floor. Douglas doesn’t seem to get that yet.

by Robert Curre on Jan 3, 2012 2:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Not to knock on Douglas

but I’m not sure he’ll ever get that. He played the point in college, in fact, he transferred from Auburn becuase the coach at Auburn wouldn’t play him at the point. So he’s played at the point plenty. He was an efficient scorer in college, a top defender and not an attitude problem, quick and strong, yet he lasted into the 20’s in the draft. Why? Probably because scouts watched him play and saw the same thing we’re seeing.

Any college player under 6’5" knows they have to play the point if they want to get drafted and get a shot in the NBA… but really, I think Toney is one of a bunch of guys that would be better off as a slightly undersized 2 than running the point. That said, the Knicks probably don’t have a better option at this moment. But when Davis can play, I’d like to see Douglas at the 2, learning how to succeed there. I think he’d be more effective.

Get The Frickin' Rebound

by fuhry on Jan 3, 2012 2:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Melo and Leadership

Last night was a night for Melo and Chandler to work on their picking-and-rolling. Instead, we got the Melo show: 31 FGA despite shooting a mere 42%, and a USG% of 42.6%. Melo undoubtedly had the best game of any Knick on the court, but he was doing it alone — again.

The Knicks need a leader on offense who can lift up the team as a whole. TD has yet to show even the potential of being that guy. Amar’e and Chandler shouldn’t be getting the ball early enough in the possession to have that kind of impact. Shumpert is too new to all this, and Baron Davis is still weeks away from his Knicks debut. That leaves only Melo as a potential leader on offense.

Like it or not, Melo’s going to have to learn how to be a point-forward. Until he does, this is how many a game is going to go, at least until Davis recovers and pulls this team together (if he can).

by sisterray24 on Jan 3, 2012 11:40 AM EST reply actions  

I am never shy about getting on Melo for being a ball-hog, however...

Due to injuries, there is only one other starting-caliber player ever on the floor with him (Chandler, who picks up fouls like its his job). At best the rest of the roster is bench fodder and many of the people coming off our bench right now are lucky to be in the NBA still.

You’ve gotta wonder if Melo ever regrets forcing a trade when he finds himself on the floor with the corpse of Mike Bibby, Bill Walker, Josh Harrellson and Steve Novak getting absolutely hosed by the Raptors. Surely things will eventually get better but these line-ups are so fucking whack that if I were him I’d chuck up shots too. He scored more than the rest of the Knicks combined in the first half, that’s how shitty the rest of the team is right now.

And look, Melo is just not a point guard. He can make a nice pass, but he’s first, foremost and forever a gunner. I have no faith that he’ll ever be the kind of player who consistently sets up his teammates first, controls the tempo of the offense, reminds people to move without the ball and/or get to their spots etc. etc. He’s just not that dude. Nor should he be, really.

As I’ve written elsewhere, the Knicks are going to totally blow until we get some key players back, and at best they are going to muddle through until (if??) Baron Davis comes back strong to take the reigns.

by flossy on Jan 3, 2012 12:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Davis, back, strong! Flossy you just made a funny!

Where is the praise for D’Antoni for giving every healthy body burn like it is fucking church league? I haven’t heard any when is________ gonna get burn cause they all are getting spin! If D’Antoni wasn’t playing Novak there would be someone on here acting like Novak was a cross between Dirk and Tom Chambers and demanding he get burn. Well he is and everybody else for that matter. where are all the Jerome Jordan is a beast posts? None, why cause D’antoni is playing him and dude kind of sucks! Like I said before D’Antoni is doing everything that posters and toasters of all stripes want. Play slow The Knicks are 13th out of 30 teams in terms of pace and do not play fast enough to score 100 points unless they shoot and hit a ton of 3s. Preach defense, The knicks do not even spend practice time on offense and it shows. Virtually all film time and court time goes to Woodson and the defense. Play a deep bench, Jerome Jordan, Bill Walker, and Novak all see regualr court time, case closed. For the Melo boys we got, “run the offense through Melo,” well most games it looks like Melo is the only one allowed to touch the damn ball. So really folks need to chill. The Knicks will look shitty until they actually get some players back and playing on a regular basis.

by Robert Curre on Jan 3, 2012 2:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Currence, you sir

you are fucking hilarious. Don’t ever change.That’s kind of a harsh assessment on Jordan though. I’m glad he saw some floor time but the poor kid has barely played enough to make any kind of bold declarations on his talent or lack there of.

But I absolutely know what you mean and are totally right.

sreh ladien e' ta janjia

by Lord Smackington on Jan 3, 2012 2:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Lin is a beast!

If only D’antoni were playing him!

Get The Frickin' Rebound

by fuhry on Jan 3, 2012 2:40 PM EST up reply actions  

I've seen the light on Lin

Six minutes of playing time is more than enough spin to see his many problems.

New signature coming soon.

by YuckFou on Jan 3, 2012 4:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Honestly

I think it’s a little tragic that Novak, Jordan, Bibby et all are getting burn and Renaldo Balkman isn’t.

HOWEVER, I don’t really care. Because this team would still suck regardless of whether Humpty replaced Novak or Jorts in the rotation.

And yeah I agree Jordan does kind of suck. Like I said, everyone aside from Melo and Chandler kind of sucks. Toney and Landry have their moments. Josh Harrellson sometimes looks like a professional basketball player I guess. We’re missing four of our better players right now and yes that includes Jared Jeffies [throws up in mouth].

by flossy on Jan 3, 2012 2:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, he's gotta become that player

Melo’s offense already controls the tempo. And he’s already getting double- and triple-teamed consistently. And he’s already getting the ball at the beginning of almost every possession. So he just has to become a player that can set up his teammates.

Does he have to be the guy reminding people to move without the ball and get to their spots? No, not if D’Antoni is doing his job and his teammates have functioning ears to hear with and legs to run with.

I also wonder if Melo occasionally regrets that he demanded the trade so he could get that extra couple million. But the Knicks are the team that they are, and they have to learn how to play to their strengths, which are considerable.

Now it’s possible that, even if they play smart and they play hard, they’d still be a mediocre team (though I don’t think that’s true). Even so, though, they’d be a hell of a lot more enjoyable to watch than they are now, playing weak, lazy, and stupid.

by sisterray24 on Jan 3, 2012 5:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Melo’s offense already controls the tempo. And he’s already getting double- and triple-teamed consistently. And he’s already getting the ball at the beginning of almost every possession. So he just has to become a player that can set up his teammates.

Everything you wrote was true all throughout his tenure in Denver and he never became that guy.

by flossy on Jan 3, 2012 7:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Point still stands

All I’m saying is that, for the Knicks to play well, Melo needs to learn how to set up his teammates. Until he does, we can expect a lot of outings like this.

by sisterray24 on Jan 4, 2012 4:21 PM EST up reply actions  

I HATE the fact that he didn't just wait til' free agency.

We would have still had Felton (if he weren’t flipped for Paul) and I’m sure we’d look much better on offense now but that’s kinda easy for us to say not to take the money and become a free agent. The dude didn’t earn the money selling crack or fleecing investors so I don’t fault him for it despite not liking the move but I had already prepared myself for our team gutting since his wedding.

sreh ladien e' ta janjia

by Lord Smackington on Jan 3, 2012 11:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Recap

- After an absolutely nauseating second period that saw lineups like Bibby-Douglas-Walker-Novak-Jordan and contained minutes-long stretches of emptiness, we learned that “this quarter was brought to [us] by Foot Locker”, which strikes me as bad marketing. I may never visit a Foot Locker ever again as retribution for them bringing me such a horrid quarter of basketball. It’s like sponsoring the bird shit on somebody’s windshield.

Seth, that was absolutely hilarious!

by WCF10 on Jan 3, 2012 11:40 AM EST reply actions  

i'd also like to point out

to the folks getting real upset over this loss-

the raptors are basically the same team they were last year. so they should be pretty familiar with each other. the knicks are not. also with the exception of like… jerryd bayless, the raptors core players were healthy and in the game. the knicks were not. and lastly, the raptors haven’t been winning so much (same record as the knicks, now thanks to this) they have really pushed some teams to their limits. bargnarni is really learning to be their main guy, and derozan is figuring out how to contribute. and calderon is getting back into being a great floor leader.

its not like we were playing the nets out there. this team plays well, and they play together, and they outworked us. don’t get bent out of shape over this one.

/// aighttho.com \\\/// twitter.com/aighttho \\\

by stingy d on Jan 3, 2012 11:54 AM EST reply actions  

the raptors lead the nba in assists.

ad they have slowed down their possessions per game to boot. so, they are playing well together.

/// aighttho.com \\/// twitter.com/aighttho \\

by stingy d on Jan 3, 2012 11:55 AM EST up reply actions  

Agreed

Their defense looked much improved too.

I’m not really that upset, I kinda saw this loss coming. And I’m not upset that we lost to the Raptors cause they’ll probably surprise a lot of teams this year.

It’s really just baffling how long of stretches this team plays where they don’t even look like NBA players. Like, they look really, really bad a lot of times. I don’t even have an explanation or anything. They just look like shit

KNICKS NOW
http://nyknicksnow.blogspot.com/ - check it out!

by WSD on Jan 3, 2012 12:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed...

There were periods in the 2nd quarter last night where they looked like they had no idea what game they were playing. Their lack of movement and enthusiasm had me thinking I was watching a baseball game.

Still not too concerned with this loss as it was basically Melo vs the Raptors as far as our offense is concerned. It just really showed our completely lack of depth.

by robk on Jan 3, 2012 12:51 PM EST up reply actions  

i'm saying

as fans we get really wrapped up in each game, and i’m certain the players want to win every game too, but they have a much clearer sense of how much work they are going to put in and things like that.

this game, sad as it may seem, might just not really matter to them. and its not a lack of passion or camraderie- which is the good thing, its just a collective ‘man, if we just had everybody it would be easier to leave everything on the floor’.

but you know- criticize me for that line of reasoning if you must.

/// aighttho.com \/// twitter.com/aighttho \

by stingy d on Jan 3, 2012 12:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Bayless being hurt

is probably a plus for them.

Get The Frickin' Rebound

by fuhry on Jan 3, 2012 12:57 PM EST up reply actions  

well he sorta helps the team when calderon is getting a rest

thats been their trouble spot so far.

/// aighttho.com \/// twitter.com/aighttho \

by stingy d on Jan 3, 2012 1:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Full disclosure

I dislike Bayless because a lot of people were whining that the Knicks should have picked him instead of Gallo.

Get The Frickin' Rebound

by fuhry on Jan 3, 2012 1:47 PM EST up reply actions  

i think it’s entirely possible that jorts is a never-nude. there are literally dozens of them!

by frilly on Jan 3, 2012 12:35 PM EST reply actions  

I really hate being that guy who makes excuses... BUT...

We were without 4 rotation players and when your team isn’t very team that’s a huge loss. Especially when one of them is by far your second best player and the team is so top heavy. Hopefully Amar’e and Shump do play Wednesday. We haven’t heard anything about Jared, but he was supposed to be back before Shumpty, right? Baron will be probably around a month and we can’t really solely depend on him… but Amar’e and Shump are very important, hopefully we have a strong game against a horrible Charlotte team.

by hvino on Jan 3, 2012 5:29 PM EST reply actions  

Then don't make excuses

the team is playing terrible team basketball and that is what the problem is. Injuries are never an excuse.

by Robert Curre on Jan 4, 2012 11:13 AM EST up reply actions  

Bibby+Novak

on the floor together? why not just spot them 10 points

You're not a diehard fan if every now and then your team doesn't try to kill you

by Bigknickle on Jan 3, 2012 11:23 PM EST reply actions  

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