Bobcats 118, Knicks 110: "Defense is terrible. Just awful to look at."
by Seth on Jan 5, 2012 12:48 AM EST
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PrintI'm totally on board with the excuses being offered for the Knicks' early struggles. They're new, they haven't had time to mesh, they've been injured, and their likely starting point guard is sidelined. At this point, these facts all serve to excuse, to some extent, the Knicks' tentativeness and inconsistency.
None of the above explains why the Knicks lost tonight, though. Take the jump.
- We've talked plenty about the switch-everything defense, but...holy shit. How does this keep happening? How, after reviewing film of the last game, is even the opponent's intention to set a screen grounds for a full switch? If this is a team short on chemistry, then why employ a defensive scheme that absolutely depends on cohesion and communication?
- A little verbal diorama to illustrate the above: Tyson Chandler is defending D.J. Augustin at the top of the arc. Toney Douglas is also kind of defending D.J. Augustin at the top of the arc, but he's thinking about switching on to Chandler's man but he's not sure. Amar'e Stoudemire is on the sideline, defending a trash can. Boris Diaw is wide-open on the elbow lining up a three-pointer. Mix and match a few characters, (like, say, make it Byron Mullens shooting a long two instead of Diaw shooting a three) and you have about half of the Knicks' defensive sets against Charlotte. Bigs guarding smalls, smalls guarding bigs, and Amar'e Stoudemire guarding inanimate objects and/or figments of his imagination. Like moose35 said in the thread, the defense was eye-searing. I don't know whether the switching emanates from D'Antoni, Woodson, or the players themselves, but I feel pretty confident that it is an abject mistake.
- Just to drive this home: The Bobcats, who had registered the league's third-least efficient offense through the first week or two, shot 55 percent from the field, hit 7 of 11 threes, assisted 27 of 47 field goals, turned the ball over 13 times, and scored 118 points.
- (To be completely fair, the Bobcats hit some tough contested shots. Gerald Henderson was cookin' soup, even with defenders' hands, like, in his mouth. I'm pretty sure Diaw hit a no-look hook shot. Still.)
- Toney Douglas ran a few nice pick-and-rolls early, (including one gorgeous behind-the-back feed to a dunking Chandler) but was otherwise uninspiring. Iman Shumpert, though he pretty uniformly failed to exploit available passing lanes, was considerably more impressive with the ball, and I'm not really talking about the pull-up jumpers. It was cool to see Iman sink those, but they're likely an unsustainable source of offense. What pleased me was seeing him push the pace and Shump his way to the basket with ease. What pleased me even more was seeing him chase his man through screens, decline the opportunity to switch, and force a few turnovers with his quick feet and long arms. He VASTLY outplayed both Douglas and Landry Fields on both ends of the floor.
- And guys: Come on. Amar'e, that's Boris Diaw putting you in the spin cycle on his way to the rim-- the same Boris Diaw that has probably at least considered purchasing a girdle. Tyson, that's Byron Mullens snaggling tip-slams over your head-- the same Byron Mullens that probably fills his bong with Mountain Dew just to see if it tastes different.
- On that note, the boos for Douglas when he reentered the game were pretty upsetting, but not unwarranted.
- Amar'e Stoudemire and Carmelo Anthony both finished the game with solid-looking offensive lines. Neither was that solid. Stoudemire did well to get after rebounds (twelve, three offensive) and clean up around the rim, but didn't return from injury having regained his jumper, and didn't see much action rolling to the basket off screens. Melo recorded the least useful 22-point fourth quarter ever.
- Lots of lobs for Tyson Chandler early, less lobs for Tyson Chandler later.
- One great thing about Shumpert: Even when he does switch on defense, he's big enough to not completely surrender against a forward or center.
- Oh, and the leg pain we all saw him suffer was apparently just a cramp and not a re-injury to his recently healed knee. Still, Gerald Henderson needs to stay the hell off Shump's legs.
- Clyde on one Stoudemire missed three: "He almost missed the floor."
- Clyde on the Knicks, coming out of halftime: "The Knicks should be down double digits the way they've been playing." Breen: "Well, they're down twelve..."
- I believe I saw a whiff of match-up zone in the final five minutes. I'm still in favor of the "Hey, what if we each just try to guard a person and if they get by us then perhaps that center we just signed for $56 million could lend a hand." defense, but zone might be worth a shot. Anything beats Chandler defending a 5'11" bro on the perimeter and Stoudemire-- who can't even track a single portly Frenchman-- being responsible for switching and helping and stuff.
- I think it was Tommy Dee that first drew my attention to this: the Knicks seem to fare terribly in situations in which momentum hangs in the balance. Specifically, when they've made a few stops or buckets to cut into a lead, they always seem to bungle that third or fourth consecutive play. Right when the crowd is ready to go nuts and the opposition looks like they need a timeout, the Knicks manage to give up some sort of flukey basket or settle for a shitty pull-up jumper or something.
That's pretty much all I've got besides a pounding headache and a desire to get in my bed and curl into the fetal position. Again, I understand that the Knicks are beset by circumstances that are either beyond their control or dependent on the passing of time, and I can tolerate the consequences of those circumstances. I can't tolerate an unsound defensive approach, carelessness, and spotty effort. And by "can't tolerate" I mean one of my eyelids hasn't stopped quivering since the final buzzer and I think I might be peeing out of my ear. I really hope the Knicks find that stuff as intolerable as I do. Everybody should be peeing out of their ears after a game like that one.
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This is the most Knicks thing ever
- I think it was Tommy Dee that first drew my attention to this: the Knicks seem to fare terribly in situations in which momentum hangs in the balance. Specifically, when they’ve made a few stops or buckets to cut into a lead, they always seem to bungle that third or fourth consecutive play. Right when the crowd is ready to go nuts and the opposition looks like they need a timeout, the Knicks manage to give up some sort of flukey basket or settle for a shitty pull-up jumper or something.
Yeah, you'd think the Knicks would realize, "Hey! We've got 'em on the ropes. Let's lock down on D, execute on O, and put the squeeze on these cats."
But nope. The Knicks realize nothing. As a matter a fact, I honestly think this is what’s going through their heads…
"We’re on a 10-0 run! This other team is panicking, the crowd is roaring… oh yeah… time for a heat check… make that 3 heat checks in a row.
Thanks for making us a contender, Donnie.
by StarksMiddleFinger on Jan 5, 2012 8:35 AM EST up reply actions
This.
will be my signature for a long time. I mean, can you do that? Can you quote another person on P&T in your signature?
GANG GREEN ALL DAY!
I put God first! Anything else comes a distant second, next to a cross-country third.
Being that I'm Nigerian, being a Jets' Fan only comes natural... it's all about that old Green and White.
You see, it's not about how you won the game, it's about how you played the game.... there's a difference. If you don't understand this, then you're losing big time.
This team needs a rule
that if you hit a 3, you do not attempt another for the next 2:30. Our guys get crazy overconfident. They hit one 3 and they launch another arrhythmic one on the next possession that almost always misses. Of course, such a rule could never be instituted on a D’Antoni team…
Anybody who says the pre-Melo Knicks had a better future than this years Knicks is crazy. Stop it.
Having said that……..oh god, when do we play the Nets.
oh yea of course they're crazy...this team has a great future now
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
Excellent recap
This isn’t working, plain and simple. When you lose back to back home games against two teams like Charlotte and Toronto, well, that speaks volumes.
Compete with Chicago/Orlando/Miami? Please. Out of the question. And the lame-ass “we need more time together” excuse is already really old. Yup, Toronto and Charlotte need more time together, too.
I’m ready for a new head coach – he’s not getting it done. The one silver lining is if the Knicks self-destruct this season, we’ll have a new coach soon. What a tremendous let-down. No heart, no effort, no W’s.
I needed a team so I wouldn’t turn into one of the eighty million pink hat-wearing Bud Light-drinking mulleted idiots at Fenway.
Excuses are getting old quickly
Pringles’ days are numbered if losses like this start to pile up. His in game coaching blows. We don’t use our size well at all. Bring the Coach Woodsen era.
...driving and mesmerizing
by mwu56 on Jan 5, 2012 1:08 AM EST via mobile reply actions
again with this Woodson shit?
Woodson was on the sideline in charge of defense. What makes you so sure he’ll coach this team any better than Dantoni? Really, I’d like to know because his coaching career thus far hasn’t been any more successful than Dantoni’s. Would you really risk making the team possibly worse because you can’t stand Dantoni that much?
sreh ladien e' ta janjia
by Lord Smackington on Jan 5, 2012 1:16 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Nothing is worse than Dantoni trying to coach these parts
...driving and mesmerizing
by mwu56 on Jan 5, 2012 2:33 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
woodson is coaching the defense
and the defense in that game was absolute shit. yeah, of course, make him the head coach! that makes a whole ton of sense! /sarcasm (just in case you can’t spot the blindingly obvious)
Thanks, I got it.
...driving and mesmerizing
by mwu56 on Jan 5, 2012 3:34 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
glad you're so confident
Guess people around here just have short memories but we’ve been down this road before. I know I’ve seen worse before. TRUST ME.
But what do I know?
sreh ladien e' ta janjia
by Lord Smackington on Jan 5, 2012 9:50 AM EST up reply actions
Ha! Holy shit!
I hated Z-Bo when he was on the team. If we complained about Nate, or Al Harrington, or Melo being a ball-stopper, Z-Bo was the WORST! Literally a black hole
KNICKS NOW
http://nyknicksnow.blogspot.com/ - check it out!
by WSD on Jan 5, 2012 2:55 PM EST up reply actions
exactly the type of thing I'm talking about
now he’s an NBA in Memphis with a few critics predicting the Grizz to go to the finals yet I’m sure more than a few heads imagined him just as easily getting fat and playing himself out of some other teams rotation until he played his way out of the NBA.
If the book on Z-Bo’s career ended in new york then we’d be left with an incomplete story.Nobody can tell what so and so player is going to be like a year from now. Even if it’s a knucklehead like Zach.
Sometimes you gotta give things the time and patience to develop.
sreh ladien e' ta janjia
by Lord Smackington on Jan 5, 2012 3:34 PM EST up reply actions
now he’s an NBA *darling* in Memphis
sreh ladien e' ta janjia
by Lord Smackington on Jan 5, 2012 3:35 PM EST up reply actions
yep
they just traded to get that kid Speights from Philly to try and replace him.
sreh ladien e' ta janjia
by Lord Smackington on Jan 5, 2012 4:59 PM EST up reply actions
Greanted they were essentially pick-up games
But Speights played well in some of those games over the summer
KNICKS NOW
http://nyknicksnow.blogspot.com/ - check it out!
by WSD on Jan 5, 2012 8:26 PM EST up reply actions
speights has it all
he’s just kinda slow footed, uninterested on d, and supposedly has a bad attitude.
if that doesn’t spell a young zach randolph, nothing does.
/// aighttho.com \/// twitter.com/aighttho \
Two-Headed Monster
As you know, I have had it in for D’Antoni from the beginning.
My read on the current state of things is that too many coaches spoil the team. It’s either that, or Woodson is deliberately sabotaging D’Antoni, because Woodson knows he’s next in line.
All things considered, mwu56’s observation seems right. Things can’t really get any worse.
i mean.... woodson ran the most iso heavy offense in the league
and it pigeon holed the hawks. because they were so very easy to defend. they were a solid defensive team, not incredible. btu they also hit the boards.
these knicks suck at iso-heavy offense. sure carmelo will get his, maybe baron can. and maybe shumpert. but the rest of the players will never thrive in an isolation offense.
BUT LOOK, THE KNICKS ARE NOT WINNING A CHAMPIONSHIP THIS YEAR
why dump d’antoni before seeing if he can make us respectable? trust me, woodson is not the answer. he’s just a shiny toy that will break if you use it too much. and doesn;t even seem to really work as advertised anyway.
/// aighttho.com \\/// twitter.com/aighttho \\
the answer is to give mike D the year
and if he falters get Phil in here and change it all up.
I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."
yea i mean
a shiny toy by Big D standards. see what i’m sayin?
/// aighttho.com \/// twitter.com/aighttho \
Respectability=Failure
This team was built to contend, not to be respectable. Something is seriously wrong if these guys can’t at least get to the Easter Conference Semis. The most obvious answer would be that they have the wrong coach.
I’m not saying Woodson is definitely the answer. I’m just saying that D’Antoni probably isn’t.
Great recap Seth as always.
“no look hook shot” was hilarious and I’d be laughing if I weren’t so filled with fiery rage.
sreh ladien e' ta janjia
by Lord Smackington on Jan 5, 2012 1:19 AM EST reply actions
Nothing was more funny than "Amar'e Stoudemire is on the sideline, defending a trash can"
nor more true. And nothing was more humiliating than watching 4 Knicks stand flatfooted flanking the basket waiting for a rebound, and watching a ‘Cat come flying down the middle of the lane to stuff said alleged rebound. They just had a whole lot more situational awareness and hustle than us, and we allowed them to get a rhythm to the point any stank shot dropped when they needed it. I wonder if Amar’e found what he was looking for in that trash can.
defensive notes for game against Bobcats
sreh ladien e' ta janjia
by Lord Smackington on Jan 5, 2012 1:28 AM EST up reply actions
I like D'Antoni, but...
if things keep going like this, we’ll be hearing the “fire D’Antoni” chants soon.
and the problem is, there really isn’t anyone that seems any better that’s willing to step in.
hopefully, this is just a shitty start like last season and a little more time (plus a little more Shump and Baron Davis) will help them improve.
shump clearly improves the team
by a shit ton! a healthy baron davis will improve the team as well, no question about it.
also, amar’e will always be the slowest reactor on defense, but he won’t be a lame on offense forever.
/// aighttho.com \\/// twitter.com/aighttho \\
I don't care about these early games at all
And so this reaction is going to seem like an underreaction to the rest of you, but the only reason why the Knicks lost this game is because the Bobcats had three bros get blazing hot from every range, so they hit a bunch of jumpers, contested or not.
The defensive effort was fine. The rebounding was fine. The offense was rather excellent, albeit not quite at maximum potential. The defensive scheming was mediocre, yes, which led to some awkward mismatches and shenanigans.
The only genuinely negative thing that I have to say about this game is that Tyson Chandler needs to attempt many more weak-side blocks than he does. I mean, Tyson Chandler has given this team literally 0 help defense so far. Even Amar’e is, in my opinion, a better paint intimidator than Tyson “I don’t block shots by people who I’m not guarding” Chandler. Communicate all you what, Chandler, that’s fine, but for the love of god, help a teammate out after he lets his guy blow by him. Please?
Laugh all you want but Jeffries at least rotates out on shooters and tries to help teammates
The whole Jeffries is a good defender thing is taken the wrong way. As a one on one defender he is adequate, he is not a lock down defender. But he is good and doing the things in the team defense that help limit points. This team does a poor job of helping each other. Everything I have seen is fixable but it takes effort and buy in from the players and I do not see that it is there.
by Robert Curre on Jan 5, 2012 10:10 AM EST up reply actions
jeffries in a way
is the anti-amar’e
I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."
How is he supposed to block shots when D'Antoni's schemes leave him marooned on the perimeter against guards on every possession?
Should he start jumping at jump shooters? I’m pretty sure that’s a recipe for fouling out.
Thanks for making us a contender, Donnie.
by StarksMiddleFinger on Jan 5, 2012 8:39 AM EST up reply actions
What D'Antoni schemes? You do realize that this Mike Woodson defense.
I have it on good authority that Mike Woodson is more like a defensive head coach than an assistant. When the Knicks go over defense in practices and in film sessions, Woodson runs the show. He does all the talking, and my understanding is other than asking a question here or there, D’Antoni mostly is off to the side taking notes. Woodson decides the schemes, develops the game plan, is the one who addresses the team before games concerning defense and makes all in game adjustments. The only thing it is apparently still in D’Antoni’s purview is he gets to call the time outs when shit goes bad defensively. So in years past we could say D’Antoni’s this and D’Antoni’s that concerning defense. Now we have to put the blame where it goes. D’Antoni did what was demanded of him. hired a defensive coach and got the fuck out of the way. D’Antoni slowed the pace of his offense to accomodate his defensive coach. He has given the defensive coach unlimited access to practice time to coach defense, and full autonomy to make defensive decisions. Woodson even has the authority to change D’Antoni’s rotation for defensive reasons. If Woodson wants a particular player on the court for a match up or whatever, he gets it. Now what is apparent is whatever Woodson is doing is not working and D’Antoni clearly needs to step in and take things over.
In fact the defense has been so bad I am starting to wonder if it is not intentional. If the Knicks continue to lose games at this rate, D’Antoni will be fired. Who will be named head coach when he is fired, Mike Woodson. Now from everything I have ever heard about Mike W he is not like that, but I am starting to wonder as Jeff Van Gundy said when he was offered a job on his brother’s staff, once you had the lead chair on the bench it is hard to go back. And with Mike D in the last year of his deal, Mike W may see the fastest track back to the lead chair as over D’Antoni’s dead corpse.
by Robert Curre on Jan 5, 2012 10:45 AM EST up reply actions
Is that why Woodson is
running D’antoni’s ‘switch on every screen’ defense from last year?
Get The Frickin' Rebound
Woodson ran switch on every screen defense in ATL
It is just that he is not D’Antoni that people claimed he knew what he was doing and pringles doesn’t!
by Robert Curre on Jan 5, 2012 11:08 AM EST up reply actions
you mean to tell me...
that sometimes critics are wrong and it’s not always accurate to trust mass perception!?! Color me shocked!
sreh ladien e' ta janjia
by Lord Smackington on Jan 5, 2012 11:13 AM EST up reply actions
nah son
Dantoni sux because ESPN and the bloggers say his defense sux so he needs to get canned immediately because anything is better than this and as long as he’s gone that surely ensures us a winning basketball team!
sreh ladien e' ta janjia
by Lord Smackington on Jan 5, 2012 11:07 AM EST up reply actions
Keep on apologizing
You and a handful of irrational believers in the D’antoni system will be all that remains if the team keeps losing like this.
Nothing is stopping D’antoni from going to the Front Office and saying I need to fire this Woodson guy since he’s running the defense. Where there is smoke there is fire — and it looks like someone is either lighting D’antoni’s farts or he’s burning himself alive. Either way he’s lost control of the team.
geez
Nothing is stopping D’antoni from going to the Front Office and saying I need to fire this Woodson guy since he’s running the defense.
except basic common sense.
Its one week into a new season with new plans and very little prep time. Geez dude, you would make the worst manager ever.
I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."
that's where you're wrong buddy
You and a handful of irrational believers in the D’antoni system will be all that remains if the team keeps losing like this.
I’m not a Dantoni believer, I didn’t even think he should be hired, I thought we needed a tough nose defensive minded coach.
I just happen to believe more in not making decisions after only a weeks worth of basketball, especially after coming off a trip to the playoffs.
sreh ladien e' ta janjia
by Lord Smackington on Jan 5, 2012 1:00 PM EST up reply actions
no.
I meant it how I said it.
Considering the year before we were even worse and thinking about the playoffs would have solicited laughs. You seem to want instant gratification, which would be cool. I’d be down for that, it’s not very likely though. Gradual progress is better than no progress.
sreh ladien e' ta janjia
by Lord Smackington on Jan 5, 2012 1:06 PM EST up reply actions
Let's see Woodson was roomates with D'Antoni's boss in college
was handpicked for him by Dolan and Grunwald. And by the way no one loses control of a team in 6 games! geesh shouldn’t jerk your knee so hard it could lead to arthritis!
Except Westpaul
Though I guess that was a long time comin’.
The defensive effort was reeeally not fine.
Nor was the rebounding. Both featured both Chandler and Amare standing around unawares and getting caught with their pants down repeatedly by BJ Mullens and the fat Frenchie.
Criticizing Chandler seems like a bad idea.
There’s plenty of blame to go around, but I would say that Chandler has been at least as good as advertised.
he's wearing a Nuggets jersey in that
and look at all that spacing.
that video made me feel worse.
I know amare isn't 100%
but it’s still no excuse to basically let the defender around you…sure he probably can’t block defenders or w/e but he doesn’t even take a step and try and get in their way, which is the least he can do. I know he brought the knicks alive last year but holy shit this year between the crappy shots to the invisible defense, i actually wish NO took the CP3 Amare deal…
Hurry the F up
and get better Jared Jeffries.
The biggest problem seems to be a lack of pride on the defensive end, if you’re guarding a man, you stick with him on the whole play. D’antoni and Woodson need to instill a no switching mentality, sure it’s not perfect, but it’d be a damn sight better than the car crash defence we’re witnessing now
OMG! We are in full panic mode. We are actually hoping for Jeffries to get back and actually play! LOL
Relax, this will get straightened out to at least bareable.
by Robert Curre on Jan 5, 2012 10:48 AM EST up reply actions
Hurry the F up
and get better Jared Jeffries.
The biggest problem seems to be a lack of pride on the defensive end, if you’re guarding a man, you stick with him on the whole play. D’antoni and Woodson need to instill a no switching mentality, sure it’s not perfect, but it’d be a damn sight better than the car crash defence we’re witnessing now
Ok I was @ the game 2nght & 2 thoughts
TD needs to be replaced @ PG IMMEDIATE LY. He does not have half the court vision of Shump Shump. Second!, Laundry needs 2 b replaced IMMEDIATELY. He’s lost out there.
And hey could anyone guard the baseline? But I blame most of that on TD. Other than that I think we are progressing nicely. And I hate my iPad with it’s BS type ahead.
The biggest issue to success is TD right now. Right guy wrong position.
by I know smart people on Jan 5, 2012 2:54 AM EST reply actions
to be fair
Landry is more effective on the floor when we have an effective point guard to direct him.
Sorry for the.2x post.
Fucking iPad.
by I know smart people on Jan 5, 2012 2:56 AM EST reply actions
Shump 2nite was everything u
Want in a Knick guard in a Dantoni O. Interesting to see Dantoni shorten the rotation too. I guess he is trying to find some synergy and consistency.
Did I mention how much I hate the type ahead on my iPad?
by I know smart people on Jan 5, 2012 3:06 AM EST reply actions
i know that it's early
but amare situation is really worrying me right now. his jumper, money last season, is completely off. now i don’t know if its the extra 20lbs of muscle, or as clyde was speculating playing pf, but it is very concerning. i love amare, and he really led this team brilliantly last season, but we need him to be beasting amare, not this horrific imitation that can’t shoot for shit, or get to the line consistently for that matter.
obviously a proper pg will help, in terms of running the pick and roll with him but he’s pretty ineffective out there.
it also doesn’t help that everyone (including shump so far, who looks great otherwise) seems to be allergic to passing him the ball. does he have cooties or something?
He is fine, it is how Amare is being used that is the problem.
Imagine being a pitcher with a 100 mph fast ball and an ok change up, and then being told by your manager that he doesn’t want you to throw the fastball but only change ups. Sure before your change up was an effective pitch because if fed off your fastball, but now if all you are throwing is an 82 mph pitch, well you are gonna get tagged. Same with Amare, his jumper was developed to supplement his inside game, not to be his game. Remember Amare when he came into the league was sort of like Dwight Howard. He relied solely on post ups and pick and rolls to score and couldn’t hit a shot outside of 10 feet if his life depended on it. He worked on the jumper to have something to fall back on when teams shutoff the pick and roll and doubled him in the post. Now he is being asked to use his back up offense as his primary offense and it is not working because he is going with his second best stuff. Amare needs to live in the paint. And D’Antoni needs to figure that out and figure out how to get him the ball in the paint.
by Robert Curre on Jan 5, 2012 10:56 AM EST up reply actions
Totally agree
What bothers me is I’m not sure how fans can see this but D’Antoni doesnt?? It’s pretty obvious what Amare’s strengths are and hanging out at the 3pt line is certainly not that. Very frustrating
Its political Friend.
Whose face is presently hanging all over MSG right now. There is a big push inside the organization to Make Melo the man here. And D’antoni has zero leverage to contradict that, unless he can first prove it does not work. In a half court set the ball should run through your big, if you have one who can score like Amare. Your perimeter guy should rule in transition, and down at the end of the clock. The Knicks should be feeding Amare in the middle of the shot clock and allowing Melo to bail out possessions when things break down. Essentially Amare has been told to get the fuck out of Melo’s way. And because he is trying to be a good soldier he is forced to get in where he fit in. Sort of Like ewing in his last days with the Knicks. When his teammates said they couldn’t beast because he clogged up the lane on offense. So what happened, Ewing spent most of his time hanging out at the 3pt line setting screens. The team was supposed to be Sprewell’s and Houston’s and Ewing was supposed to get the fuck out of the way.
I believe it will get better
but the one thing I don’t expect is for Stat to become a better defender. Scrubs will always outplay him and look like superstars. He can drop 20 or even 30 but won’t help when a scrub on the other end has a career high and the other team outscores you. If JJ hickson and scrubs like Diaw can look like stars against Stat, it only means it will always be this way. We will just have to wait and see when things become better and hopefully other players like Chandler will make Stat look better.
Chandler's been a joke thus far.
He seems like he’s taking cues from STAT on D instead of it being the other way around. I must have counted about ten different occasions where Chandler looked at a rebound fall into the hands of the opposition despite not even being blocked out and another ten times where he watched Bobcats dance into a lane that he created for an uncontested layup…..Fucking disgusted….no, really.
Jared (oh, please, no!) Jeffries
great recap
It’s frustrating to go through this every season, but I am trying to figure things out from watching the interviews and then I also have to form my own opinions based on what I see, hear and think. I think there are several factors and issues with this knicks team and I will try my best to put it out. I am not going in a specific order but it’s something of the following:
we have new players on a team who have had no training camp and no preseason(except those silly 2 games). We have brought in players to change the culture of this team and become dominant on defense. Now this will take even more time than anything because that is not easy unless you you have a bunch of good defenders on a team. We have Stat who has never coexisted well with a center who gets in his was offensively. Stat likes to have space so he can abuse whoever is guarding him but that’s not possible with Chandler since he doesn’t stretch the floor. He will have to adjust his game to fit more well next to Chandler and do that at least when they playing in same line up. Then we have Carmelo and Stat who are both scorers but who play two different styles. I can’t remember who said it on here but these two players are made for different systems yet they have to adjust and learn to play together. They can make it happen but it will take some time since they have had no real training camp and those important preseason games. This is not a two week project but takes longer than that.
I would expect the same thing to happen in Miami if Wade and Lebron came together this year and without training camp and preseason. If they were crying last year, imagine what they be doing right now. This will take time as we have more than just one problem. We are talking about a major change to a team like this and can’t expect it to happen overnight. Out of all the things that bothered me about the Melo trade last year was how late into the season it went down. This trade should have happened in 2010 when Melo first made clear he wasn’t gonna take the extension from Denver. If the trade had gone through then, we would at least have gotten rid of the two playing together.
On top of all the above, there are also injuries which always suck. I try to remain patient and hope the boos and negative writings on blogs, and espn will inspire the Knick players to try even harder. I am sure there is more to mention but these are just some of the things I can think of right now.
Let’s see if we can make progress against the Wizards and hope Rashard Lewis or Turriaf(if he wasn’t injured) get their career highs against us.
I'm with you on the patience thing...it's just that
to excuse the defensive EFFORT….now I don’t know that I can do that.
Jared (oh, please, no!) Jeffries
Chandler is the most handicaped and USELESS center in the NBA. C’mon guys, Knicks gave him max 14.5 milion a year contract for for WHAT? He can’t shoot, he doesnt jump, he is USELESS. 90% of the centers in the NBA, good, bad and worst can shoot, the only one that didnt shoot as i can recall was Mutombo, but boy he played some D, unlike Chandler. And forget his time in Dallas, they were a team with 4 guys in the starting line up who can SHOOT, so he was perfect fit there with offensive beasts like Dirk, JK, JT and Marion. In the Knicks line up, well, the opponents need to concentrate on Melo and Stat only, the remaining starters like Chandler, Fields and Toney are USELESS so they dont bother with them, they just close Melo and Stat and there you go, job done. IMHO, we should trade Stat/Fields/Bibby/Toney for DH12 and Chandler/Bibby/Toney/Fields or even B Davis for CP3, and then we can talk about BIG 3 in NY, right now, there is “big” 3 with one “big” offensively handicaped and 2 defensively handicaped… And yes, if possible, K-Mart would be good addition for this Knicks team… But please, get rid of Toney and specialy Landry!
Wow
So your definition of an amazing center is one that can shoot? Better go give last night’s hero, Boris Diaw, a call. He’ll truly give us the big 3!
Yes, Chandler does play defense. Don’t expect him to swat everything that comes his way, especially since this is a new team he’s playing for.
And yes, let’s clone Bibby, Toney and Fields. Then trade them for Dwight Howard (I’m guessing we want to be fair to Orlando and give them the originals.) Then take the clones with Chandler and trade them for CP3, who L.A would be more than willing to give up after trading for him just now.
And, lest we forget, get rid of the guys we’re trying to trade for superstars. Because a bad start to the season is indicative of how well they’ll play going forward.
New York Knicks = Sleeping Giants
I guess Mark Eaton is your definiton of center, judging from what u have said… And if u use your brain just a little bit you would have avoid that “cloning” sentence… To make it simple for you, i was talking about combination of the guys that imho should be traded out of NY. And acording to your managerial/scouting/player development abilities Fields, Toney, Bibby and co. will get better, right? No my man, if u have it, you have it, see Shump. If you dont, you dont, see Landry and Toney. And if u r happy with the Knicks making the playoff appereance its fine, but the Knicks fans want the title, not the 1st or 2nd round exit… And im sure im not the only one that doesnt see this Knicks team as a potential title contender. As i said, the BIG 3’s are in Miami, Boston, Dallas… We dont have big 3 and the 3 we have certanly dont deserve to be OVERPAID like they are. Just tell me, why would you pay a center like Chandler max 14.5 mil a year? For what? His presence? for 0 ZERO attempts in the offense? And total of 5 def rebs per game? On his best nights he’s 10 and 10, enough said?
No my man
My definition of a center would be Tyson Chandler. I was going by what you said. And yes, we overpaid for him slightly. It was at a position we absolutely needed though, so I’m fine with that. If we overpaid for Jamal Crawford, I’d be angry. Not with Tyson.
No, I don’t have any player development abilities. But If you’re ready to ship Landry and TD out of town because of a poor start to the season, then you my friend, are the one that’s wrong. Why on earth would you trade 2 good rotation players that will come off the bench when Davis and Shumpert get back to full strength? What is the logic in trading away a player who makes amazingly little and barely affects the cap? What would you get in return? Bibby’s trash, but he isn’t supposed to be our 6th man. And I don’t know if you noticed, but he didn’t play much last night. He isn’t supposed to be playing as much as he’s playing. None of these guys, except for maybe Landry who I believe will turn it around, are.
And yes, I’m fine with the Knicks making a 2nd round exit this year. Not much else could have been expected. You seriously thought they’d contend for the title this season? I’m fine with you or most of the fanbase not seeing them as title contenders, because they’re not. Not yet.
But you still fail to see the point. You want instant gratification, and that’s why you’re ready to trade away the whole team, start again, because the team isn’t firing on all cylinders. Continuity and chemistry are what’s missing on this team. We aren’t playing as a team. And no amount of trading will fix that.
New York Knicks = Sleeping Giants
Im a Knicks fan for 20+ years, been suffering and suffering for a looong time but will never give up on them. Im just tired of bad moves by the management, thats all. I can’t see this team going anywhere simply coz its assembled very very bad, i mean, you have a starting center that is way overrated, you have Stat that NEVER plays D, you have Melo that NEVER plays D, and those 3 take 90% of the salary cup. On that you add the fact that Stat is prone to injuries and the bench… well i think this is the worst bench in the NBA. Where is this team going? Chemistry? What chemistry if you font have PG in the team? Dont expect wonders from Baron… Defense? Is there anyone outhere hoping that Melo and Stat will learn D? Or that they are willing to do it? So in the start you have 2 out of 5 starters that dont play D. What future you have with them? Add on that Toney and Landry, they both suck in D and offense as well, you have no money left to acquire decent players to support the “big” 3 so u have to work out other solutions, the first is you would have to sacrifice one of the big’s, and as the things seem, Stat is first on that list. Thats why i said Stat+ peanuts for DH12 and Chandler+ peanuts for CP3, he didnt sign the extension… Or Chandler for any good PG outhere. As we stand now, without PG, SG and Melo and Stat 0 D we are not going anywhere… They dont and never will play D. And without D, this is not NY basketball. Period.
I don't doubt that you're a fan
And it’s hard to look at. But you have to try and see the bigger picture. I don’t know what your definition of overrated is, but Chandler definitely isn’t. He’s might be making more money than he should (even though I doubt that, especially since rookie players and stars are the most undervalued players in the NBA), but that doesn’t mean he’s underrated. He’s probably the 2nd best defensive center in the NBA, and if you think the defense is bad now, try to imagine the team with Amar’e at the 5 and Jorts at the 4. It wouldn’t look that great.
Amar’e is the only defensively deficient player on this roster. Melo plays great defense, when he’s motivated to do so. He played a decent defensive game last night as well. And rosters like the Bulls or Celtics don’t have other-worldly defenders at every position. They simply place an emphasis on defense, value it higher than offense, have been together for a while and have a coach that knows what he’s doing, and does it well. D’Antoni doesn’t.
And no way in hell we trade Amar’e and that contract for Dwight Howard without offering up a significant part of our roster. What you’re also forgetting is that we already have Chandler. What good would Howard do? Backup center?
Toney and Landry don’t “suck”. They lack the talent to be consistent starting players, mainly TD. They should be coming off the bench. Anytime you have a bench player getting starter’s minutes consistently, something won’t look right.
And there’s a lot of pretty good PG’s that will be available in the offseason. Without a PG, this team won’t play well offensively on a consistent basis, and Amar’e will look terrible. That and chemistry is the missing link. If we didn’t amnesty Billups, this team would hit the ground running to start the season. But we did, and now we’re suffering through a slow and painful to watch start. The potential on this team is so much higher than it would have been pre-Melo or pre-Chandler. It’s just going to take a while.
And I never got the whole “NY basketball” thing. We had good defensive teams in the past. The team has to adapt to it’s personnel, I don’t get why we have to be the Bulls or Celtics at all costs.
New York Knicks = Sleeping Giants
Coz the defense wins the championships, coz we played those 2 NBA finals with Houston and Spurs thanks to the defense, coz no team has ever won the championship without defense, thats why. And my thought was trading Amare’e for D12 and Chandler for GOOD PG, if possible CP3. At the end of the day, whats the point having big 3 that is not actually big 3 without even having a chance of playing the Eastern final, not to mention the big final? And whats the point keeping those big 3(that u clearly overpaid) with no room for building around them coz they simply take 90% of the salary cup. That is the funniest thing, if funny at all….
You can't trade Chandler just yet.
The Knicks just signed him to a contract from what I have seen you can’t trade someone who signed a contract at the beginning of the season, there is a waiting period. So Chandler and CP3 are gonna be playing where they are playing for some time.
You are suggesting Amare/chandler and some mediocre role players for the top center and pg in the league? Also those mediocre role players are bench players on any other team. C’mon man get real. No way would ORL do a trade for Amare and peanuts, thats a rediculous statement/suggestion!!!! The Knicks would have to send cash and picks and probably get a 3rd team in the mix.
Unfortunately, you are going to have to be realistic and patient.The Knicks are still a few pieces away because of the original mess Isiah Thomas created. Walsh was able to get them on the right path. It will take some time to clear some cap space(which they tried when they amentized mr big shot) and get some more good draft picks. A 2nd rd exit from the playoffs wouldn’t be a bad thing seeing how they made a 1st rd exit last year.
And you lost them thanks to having no O!
Since your fandom only goes back to the Riley era martian I will give you a pass. But the actual Knicks teams that one shit were balanced, getting to the finals and not winning means you still lose. Getting to the finals and losing is like getting a super hot chick to give you her phone number and then accidently flushing it down the toilet. Winning the championship is like getting that phone number, calling her up and being invited over, and once you get there she and her equally hot roomate tell you that their biggest fantasy is to have a 3some with you! See both are nice, but there is a big difference.
by Robert Curre on Jan 5, 2012 11:04 AM EST up reply actions
I would change that up
Getting to the Finals is like getting the phone number, getting invited over, but then she makes you change the batteries in her smoke alarms or something, and then sends you home. You still got the number, you got there, but the end result was pretty shitty
KNICKS NOW
http://nyknicksnow.blogspot.com/ - check it out!
by WSD on Jan 5, 2012 3:03 PM EST up reply actions
Go play a video game man.
Chandler was the starting Center and defensive anchor for a championship team. I’m frustrated too, but I’m not going to start yelling at management because they didn’t get Dwight Howard and CP3 in here. Those guys play for other teams.
Neither one of those guys ever won a championship.
The Ewing-era Knicks didn’t win one either. The last Knick team to win a championship was terrific offensively as well as defensively.
Get The Frickin' Rebound
I would like to correct something
coz no team has ever won the championship without defense EXCEPT for the 2000-1 Lakers.
My Wife is a Patriot's fan...
by Giantssincesix on Jan 5, 2012 12:00 PM EST up reply actions
2006 Heat played mediocre defense
They’re the only team to win it in the last 10 years without a good defense though.
Go comment on Berman's articles man.
You’re getting hysterical. What’s the alternative, to have a 36 year old Chauncey Billups at PG and an injured Turiaf not playing center?
I don’t agree with all of the teams moves, but they are WAY better than the knee-jerk, quick fix moves Isiah or Layden made.
I know they looked awful last night on defense, but this team needs a point guard and time to gel before we can go jumping to conclusions.
Get The Frickin' Rebound
ive been saying this ad Nauseum.
You know how Spike Lee’s film company is called 40 acres and a Mule
Our Mantra should be 20 games and Baron Davis.
I have no idea what the correlation between those two are.
Fish Fingers give me a break.
by GAx on Jan 5, 2012 1:37 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Ehm
1) Melo is a much, much better shooter than LeBron
2) LeBron went to Miami, so what’s the point of salivating over him?
New York Knicks = Sleeping Giants
I was just joking, but the fact stands that you cant compare D12 and Shaq with Chandler, just as you everyone would like to have Lebron over Melo in their team, as much as i hate Lebron and his talents :)
But ok, i should have put it this way : Steve Kerr is much better shooter than Michael Jordan :D, fair enough? :D
Seth
This was pretty dang funny. Thanks for the laugh this morning =).
I’m expecting it to be like this for a while. We didn’t have a real training camp or a preseason and our bench is not very stellar.
We have a bunch of individuals playing out there most of the time instead of a team.
My Wife is a Patriot's fan...
:(
I know i will catch hell from my Knick Hating freinds, thanks alot you overpaid lampposts. But seriously how hard is it to play defense. Stay in front of your man, put a hand up and grab rebounds. Forget Woodson and just focus on that basic concept.
You're probably right
Got a little too complicated. Knicks should have been able to play straight up man D against that team.
Get The Frickin' Rebound
i dont think they were booing TD so much
as they were booing the fact the as Shumpert was showing us SHUMPtin’ then gets taken out the game, just to be put back in 2 min later!
by blackhova on Jan 5, 2012 7:03 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Yeah, true
But Toney just took the ball up court and starting looking for the first person he could pass it to after that. They could have starting chanting Shumpert, not booing. I liked the fact that they booed, but not there. Kind of cold hearted.
New York Knicks = Sleeping Giants
I thought they did switch
from booing to chanting “We Want Shumpert” pretty quickly.
I fondly remember this exchange, as the booing started:
Breen: Toney Douglas checking back in.
Clyde: Not for Shumpert he’s not!
Alas, it was so. A few bad possessions later, D’Antoni called timeout and returned Shumpert to the floor.
i'm going to the game on friday
DC’s bout to get SHUMP’D. seriously. i’m a transplanted knicks fan, been watching the wizards here for years. as bad as last night was, this really is as bad as it gets. nobody loses to the wizards.
I'm hearing a lot of people talk smack about Tyson Chandler. Why?
How dare anyone blame Tyson Chandler for not providing the interior defense that he was famous for in Dallas.
Mike D’Antoni has not been allowing Tyson Chandler play on the interior on defense! That’s the problem. He can’t block shots, intimidate, or rebound very well when he gets marooned on the perimeter against guards on every possession!
Seriously, stop whining about him sucking and being overpaid, and realize that in Dallas he actually could defend the middle because that’s where he physically was on defense. I doubt that a man who was consistently hailed as one of the best defensive centers in the league after Dwight Howard (by both critics and supporters) really sucks on defense.
Thanks for making us a contender, Donnie.
by StarksMiddleFinger on Jan 5, 2012 8:49 AM EST reply actions
because we're losing
and when we start losing like this sometimes Knicks fans just say shit to say shit and when we start winning they act like they never said that shit in the first place
sreh ladien e' ta janjia
by Lord Smackington on Jan 5, 2012 9:55 AM EST up reply actions
I do place a little blame on Tyson
At a certain point he needs to realize that it’s better for him to take a step back and let the guy take a jumper than to leave the paint totally unguarded
I'd agree that the matchups are a problem
But even when Chandler was in position to defend last night he looked deep into the offender’s eyes and did nothing…he watched rebounds into other players hands and opened up lanes that weren;t there..tehn watched as the offender took a lay in.
Jared (oh, please, no!) Jeffries
Defending the Pick & Roll
is it me or are we the only team that gets KILLED by the P&R? It always seems like our guy is glued to the man setting the screen. I personally think it looks this way because our PGs do not know how to properly use our own screens but I could be wrong.
http://wetalkfantasysports.blogspot.com
by WeTalkFantasySports.blogspot.com on Jan 5, 2012 9:02 AM EST reply actions
The switching D
is just killing us. If we can remedy that, I think we’ll be OK.
D’Antoni is not inspiring confidence early on, though.
"But when he saw it, he just put his hands up and they couldn’t give it to him. It just fell to the ground, I-I don’t, you know … So, that showed me he had great experience..." - Jeff Van Gundy
by Anthony Bonner's Subpoena on Jan 5, 2012 9:17 AM EST reply actions
Balkman does it best!
Great D tonight from Renaldo
“If this is a team short on chemistry, then why employ a defensive scheme that absolutely depends on cohesion and communication?”
Seth, is it possible that, with a shortened season, they’re trying to get this in place for the playoffs? I’ve missed most of the games this year, with the exception of Boston and a few minutes of each of the last two, so that’s a legit question, not a rhetorical one.
A reasonable question
Sort of a “you go out there and keep embarrassing yourself until you figure shit out, winning games be damned” approach? Perhaps!
Sort of my theory as well
I think before the season D’antoni said it would be a couple weeks before he’d consider really changing the line-up, which seemed to be a signal that these first couple weeks were going to be written off in regards to wins/losses. A lot of players that usually wouldn’t get significant playing time have been on the court for some painful stretches. He’ll get to see who is and isn’t ready to go for a big playoff push now, find out which offensive and defensive strategies DON’T work, and then hopefully have a vetted gameplan ready to go at the end of February.
NEW COACH!!
Fire D’Antoni…plain and simple. Boy do I miss the old days of Charles Oakley putting his body in harm’s way on every single defensive possession. We need a coach that embraces that type of thinking. Hey~anyone know what Oakley’s doing lately ??
Yeah, plain and simple
That’ll fix everything, good call! It’s great that problems with NBA teams are so easy to fix, huh?
I'm not panicing at all. But I'm not excusing it either.
But somethng does need to change or this team needs to wake up. The Knicks are 2-4 right now, which is fine until you consider that our last 2 games were against the Toronto Raptors and Charlotte Bobcats. Both of those teams are universally considered bottom dwelling teams. And the Knicks didn’t just lose to them… they have been thoroughly outplayed by both.
See, it’s early in the season and even in a condensed 66 games, this first month of play isn’t the determining factor in who makes the playoffs.
But it would be much easier to accept some of these losses if they were against good teams. But they are not.
While the Mavericks started their season up against teams like Miami, Denver and Oklahoma City (amongst others), the Knicks have lost to Golden State, Toronto, Charlotte, LA (a very different team strugling to find it’s own chemistry).
I understand our own shortcomings like Seth does (injuries, etc.), but this is a team who’s natural talent is certainly able to compete with the worst teams in the league.
So what is the deal?!
"Madison Square Garden is the ultimate basketball stage. That's where I belong. That's where I live. That's the home of the New York Knicks." - Amar'e Stoudemire
by Chris Child's Fist on Jan 5, 2012 9:52 AM EST reply actions
Yeah...
the first two losses were different… against an ok GS team and the Lakers out west. But these last two have been awful. Playing two poor teams… at home!
Listen, I understand about the lack of chemisty and various injuries while waiting for our real PG to get healthy… but c’mon. One of the biggest reasons we’ve lost these last two is we’ve been outplayed. Period. By two bad teams. At home.
Energy is something that shouldn’t have to be taught. And Toronto and Charlotte both showed much more energy than we did over the course of a full game. At home. I don’t understand that. Yep, we’ve shown good energy in stretches… but it looks like in so many cases we’re getting outhustled.
So I understand the chemisty issues and agree we’ll be a MUCH better team by season’s end. But if we wanna compete with the better teams, we somehow have to show consistent energy, hustle and desire on both O and D. And that part is what has me worried since energy should be a given each and every night.
I don't think the results of these games is the issue
It’s how clueless they look. On defense, on offense, on the boards. The effort and focus just aren’t there.
It doesn't make me feel any better but it's useful info anyway
BJ Mullens in 6 games is stroking the shit out of the ball shooting better than 50% right now and shooting at least 70% in half of those games.
We still gave up the most points to him but still, he’s shooting lights out right now.
sreh ladien e' ta janjia
by Lord Smackington on Jan 5, 2012 10:02 AM EST reply actions
true indeed
sreh ladien e' ta janjia
by Lord Smackington on Jan 5, 2012 11:10 AM EST up reply actions
Getting Chandler's not enough
It doesn’t really matter how good your interior defender is if your perimeter defenders are absent. Chandler (and Woodson) need to change the entire culture of absenteeism on defense before they can start focusing on doing their own thing.
The Silver Lining
The bad start is weeding out a lot of bandwagon fans.
True
and they’ll say they were here all along
by The Monsieur on Jan 5, 2012 11:05 AM EST up reply actions
Woodson
Woodson seems to be interested in exploring this ‘higher level’ defensive concept of the trap and fluid switching. It’s been a disaster. Not that there’s no place for this stuff, but the Knicks are so utterly lacking in defensive fundamentals that this other stuff just exacerbates the problem. I mean, if you can’t stay in front of your own man, how are you going to be able to stay in front of the man you’re switching to?
Woodson should be able to see that the Knicks are not ready for this higher level stuff yet. He needs to start over with the basics and build up from there.
also
atlanta was basically 5 guys that were between 6’5 and 6’10… so the matchups never really brought about drastic mismatches. but in new york it does.
this may well be a ‘get back up and try again’ few weeks tho.
/// aighttho.com \\/// twitter.com/aighttho \\
Thanks!
That’s helpful background. I feel like that explains where Woodson’s coming from, to some extent.
Still, it doesn’t take a “defensive specialist” to see that the Knicks don’t have even the most basic defensive skills down just yet. If you don’t know how to stay in front of your man and keep your eye on the ball, I don’t know what defensive scheme is going to work out for you. I’m not opposed to what Woodson’s trying to do, really, but it just seems like he’s got to re-teach these guys the fundamentals before he can insist on implementing this higher level strategy.
Now, it’s quite possible that the current Knicks roster is just incapable of learning the fundamentals. But I just find it too hard to believe that anyone, let alone an entire roster, can be that inept at defense.
i hear ya
and i basically agree.
but those same hawks went from like 15 wins to 50+ wins in a few seasons. and woodson’s offense was what basically showed him the door. the hawks just ran iso plays every game all game. and it rarely worked to perfection. they were able to get critical stops and critical buckets, thats how they won games.
woodson is known for being a player’s coach, well liked, and a constant source of support for his guys. that type of thing can’t be measured, but when our backs are agianst the wall- could make all the difference.
and basketball is funny man… you can be playing and doing what your coach wants you to do and just never get it, and then suddenly the light switches on, and you get it. i think that will happen here. but we gotta get fucked up by the bobcats a few times first.
/// aighttho.com \/// twitter.com/aighttho \
That's where Shumpert seems a better fit than Douglas.
If he gets switched on to, say, Boris Diaw, it’s not the end of the world. He can totally guard Boris Diaw.
its only a matter of time
toney is not a starter’sminutes kind of guy. and everybody knows it.
/// aighttho.com \/// twitter.com/aighttho \
I want to see Toney concentrating on being a shooting guard
Without having to worry about running the team.
Get The Frickin' Rebound
He would be great as a scoring guard off the bench
He could take his shots without taking so many away from the big guns
I keep seeing people write that about TD
He’s taking shots from Amar’e and Melo. He’s averaging 15 shots a game (which is a lot for almost any player), Amar’e is averaging 15 as well, and Melo is averaging 19 shots a game.
Nobody is really losing their shots. If anybody, I think I’d like Landry to shoot a little bit more to get some more confidence
KNICKS NOW
http://nyknicksnow.blogspot.com/ - check it out!
by WSD on Jan 5, 2012 8:36 PM EST up reply actions
so glad you said this sisterray
It seems like people are more content to just spout off shit they hear these radio callers spew and don’t actually watch the games
if you can’t stay in front of your own man, how are you going to be able to stay in front of the man you’re switching to?
so simple but so brilliant a statement. It’s appreciated because it seems like people are content to sum up our problems with “our D sucks” and “Dantoni needs to go” without actually understanding any of these concepts and why these things won’t easily be fixed without hard work.
sreh ladien e' ta janjia
by Lord Smackington on Jan 5, 2012 1:21 PM EST up reply actions
Is one the causation of all other problems?
Isn’t the main complaint that D’antoni doesn’t 1) have a developed concept of defense 2) Hold his players accountable for their defensive shortcomings?
Unfortunately, unless MDA shows otherwise (unlikely) he will be gone at the end of this season, he won’t be fired, but he’ll be Phoenixed for a coach who is more of a leader and holds players accountable on both sides of the court.
no
not necessarily…supposed Dantoni did those things, they’d still have to go out and practice those concepts and not dog it. They’d also have to execute while on the floor. Dantoni can do neither of those things for them.
But that doesn’t mean I don’t think that Dantoni should hold them accountable and develop concepts as well.
sreh ladien e' ta janjia
by Lord Smackington on Jan 5, 2012 3:49 PM EST up reply actions
Phew
I almost bet on the knicks to win this one. No need to panic, but I really hope they get it together sooner rather than later.
by Kupe on Jan 5, 2012 11:12 AM EST via Android app reply actions
sometimes it takes a crisis to bring different people together. I know it sounds like a cheesy 80s movie plot.
Maybe the Knicks should watch Revenge of the Nerds Part II and then theyll start playing like champions.
d'antoni said the team is talking about it
and thats always a good sign, they got each other’s backs. and they are dedicated to working it out. time will tell.
and our backs are starting to be aginst the wall. lets see how we fight.
/// aighttho.com \/// twitter.com/aighttho \
So the Knicks play bad for like 20 games and there are excuses that you need to wait, and it's not enough games
But Shumpert has 1 good game and it’s obvious he should be starting? I don’t get these arguments. Blind optimism.
by mindfeck on Jan 5, 2012 11:37 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Actually
Shumpert has had 2 good games, plus 2 good pre-season games. Not that going 3-13 before getting injured, as he did against Boston, is something I’d advocate he try doing again soon. But even in that game he looked confident and capable — two things that can’t be said about any other guard on the Knicks active roster right now. And at both ends of the court too!
No doubt, Shumpert has a long way to go before he reaches his ceiling. But he’s already looking better than the Knicks’ starting guards — and better than some of their other starters as well.
he trumps toney
his nature to push the ball and apply constant pressure on offense and defense is exactly what the team needs.
also he can keep his dribble alive. something toney just can’t do. shump pushes and is in the lane with like 20 seconds left on the clock, if he has a lane, he can take it all the way, if he doesn’t- he can keep his dribble alive and pull it out.
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I mean Landry was good before last February. You could hold out hope that he reemerges. But comeon there is no way you should be defending TD as a starter. If anything MDA should slot in Shumpert over TD against the lowly Wizards. He won’t though because he’s working this “philosophy” of his.
douglas is clearly a stopgap starter
its gonna be davis.
one thing that i think would be totally amazing tho is a toney and shumpert backcourt off the bench. the energy and activity they have on defense would give second units nightmares.
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Right now we need Shump off the bench
He brings scoring, enegry and leadership. Douglas could theoretically do these things, but Shumpert looks to pass even less than TD, who is at least trying
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Its painfully obvious that we need defense more than ball movement. TD needs a punch in the mouth too — he’s become complacent.
No!
We need defense AND ball movement!!! No team can go anywhere if they have to decide whether to show up on the offensive or the defensive side of the court on a given night.
You’re not disagreeing with me. So stop trying! TD just isn’t going to provide enough of either as a starting guard, so why not try someone who will at least provide energy and defense and the possibility of ball movement?
???
looks like a disagreement to me, unless you had a typo you said we need one more than the other which is borderline crazy because we look like hot garbage on offense when we don’t move the ball and we’re just as likely to lose a game because of our poor offense as we are due to our poor defense if the past six games are an indicator.
You said it yourself:
we need defense more than ball movement.
I disagree also but maybe you had a typo or something
sreh ladien e' ta janjia
by Lord Smackington on Jan 5, 2012 1:33 PM EST up reply actions
Right now we need Shump all game long.
No other guard is producing anything. TD has been a good bench player and a terrible starter. The absence of scoring, energy, and leadership in the starting lineup has meant that the Knicks look lost from the get-go.
Shump has to work on his passing, but, even as is, the ball just moves better when he’s on the court. TD’s weak perimeter passes don’t count as “trying” — it’s just passing off responsibility to create a play. Shump creates plays by moving the ball and getting into the lane, breaking down the D, i.e. doing what a PG is supposed to do.
Call me crazy
But I’d start Shump and Toney right now, then bring Landry and either Bibby or Lin off the bench.
Get The Frickin' Rebound
Eww
Bibby or Lin? Why not bring the hot dog guy out of the stands as well. Both these players are cut-worthy. Landry has some high IQ and ability to penetrate/defend, which is more than can be said of TD.
OK
but if you just rotate TD, Shump, and Landry in the 1/2 spots, TD will spend some minutes at the point. Is that better than Bibby or Lin?
Get The Frickin' Rebound
OK.
I can agree that’s probably true. To me, fi you start Shump and Toney, you get your best defensive backcourt out there to start the game, and I think that’s a smart thing to do if Amar’e and Melo are also starting.
I’ve long thought it made sense to start the game with your best defensive squad. This seems counterintuitive, but it’s very important to knock the other team’s confidence down right off the bat. The Knicks literaly can’t start the game with their best defenisve squad unless they’re going to have Amar’e coming off the bench, which they won’t do. But they need to have their best defending backcourt.
Get The Frickin' Rebound
Maybe
I’ve been considering that too. I do think Landry’s been playing even worse than TD, so it seems like the “just” thing to do to take him out before TD. And if the problem has been a lack of playmaking, then getting all 3 of your playmakers (Melo counts too) on the court at once may be worth experimenting with.
But then you’re asking Landry to come into the game with even worse guys running the point, and he’s a guy that still needs a lot of direction (as well as a confidence boost) if he’s going to produce anything. At least until Davis checks in, the Knicks are weak at the guard, and I think it’s more prudent to spread out the assets they have than to concentrate them all into a backcourt that might be able to play basketball and a backcourt that definitely cannot.
Let's not forget
that Shump, coming off an injury, played 30 minutes last night, which was more than Landry Fields played. D’Antoni said later that it was, in part, because Douglas was in foul trouble, but he seems on track to receive big minutes whether or not he starts.
stop that!
d’antoni doesn’t develop rookies properly and he plays a short rotation and doesnt know when to put the right guys in!
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About the whole switching thing
It’s almost purely a Mike Woodson strategy. For some reason I actually watched a good chunk of the Atlanta Hawks’ games from the 2009-10 season and they switched on EVERYTHING. But they did for a couple reasons.
At times, it helped mask poor defenders like Mike Bibby and Jamal Crawford. But the main reason is for when they would put out any lineup that consisted of Crawford, Mo Evans, Joe Johnson, Marvin Williams, Josh Smith, Al Horford, or Zaza Pachulia. Those dudes all have height, so basically they could afford to swtich a center onto a SF, or PF onto a guard. It worked because they were all mostly capable, versatile defenders.
The Knicks don’t have that, except for maybe Shumpert and Chandler (who defended Augustin admirably I thought). Theoretically, Melo and Amar’e could guard forwards, centers, and maybe even guards because of their athleticism. But they actually suck at defense, so it doesn’t work.
This team absolutely needs to employ a zone
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The Knicks did this last year a bunch!
For the same reason – undersized but athletic big men. Woodson did not bring this to the Knicks unless he was consulting them last year.
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He didn't necessarily bring it
They did switch a bunch last year, but not to this extent.
On a whole I have a problem with switching because of the message it sends to players. It’s kinda like taking the easy way out, and it makes dudes relax on defense. I once heard Kevin McHale talking about defense and he said it’s all about covering your man, and helping others out. Help a teammate out and sprint back to your man. There’s no easy way out; you sprint and hustle for the whole 24 seconds until you get the ball back
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by WSD on Jan 5, 2012 3:16 PM EST up reply actions
i'll get the treatment
but jeffries is a beast in a matchup zone/switching defense.
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I'm personally excited for Jeffries to get back
He brings stability on defense and he’s a good communicator. He also does little things like take charges, dive for balls, and tip rebounds back out, which this team could use.
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by WSD on Jan 5, 2012 3:13 PM EST up reply actions
i'm excited too
more than anythign i want the full team to be healthy and i want to see what they can do with 15 games.
apparently thats too much to ask, but i feel like its premature to draw conclusions about this team without that sort of sample size.
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Here's what I think
The Knicks developed this ‘switch on every pick’ defense last year because they had the athletic bigs and strong guards to do it. It’s actually kind of ingenious because it kind of takes away the other team’s pick and roll game.
And, say what you want, they haven’t let up a huge number of points this year, until this game.
But I think that the Bobcats watched film of this, they were ready for it, and they figured out a way to exploit it. They have big guys that can shoot from the outside, and that helps. And it confused the fuck out of Amar’e in particular, and led to a lot of easy buckets, and then the ’cats confidence started soaring. So even in the 4th quarter, when the Knicks adjusted and started playing better, Henderson was hitting step back fadeways from all angles and distances.
I think the ‘switch everything’ defense can be something they employ, but now that they have a guy like Chandler, they don’t necessarily have to do that all the time. And it may help to simplify the defense for Amar’e, who has some physical defensive skills but is a little dopey on that side of the ball.
Good things: Shump really changed the dynamic on offense, and it showed on the scoreboard. And, the Knicks did not give up a ton of offensive rebounds.
What I am seeing is that they are doing some things well and some things terribly each game and they haven’t put it together in 4 out of their 6 games.
I happen to think that
Get The Frickin' Rebound
Amare. Landry, and TD
Sure is interesting how they all suk now, on the post-Melo Knicks, when last year they were early MVP, Rookie of the Year, and 6th man of the Year candidates, repsectively, and we all loved them.
All of their collective skills just completely eroded simultaneously in less than a year. Obviously, whatever disease they caught, is quickly rubbing off on Tyson Chandler too. Man, his championship jewelry is even turning to cubic zirconia. Amazing!
Maybe they all just don’t thrive in a stand-around and watch Melo chuck it up offense with no true PG?? Aren’t “Star” players supposed to raise the levels of their teammates play?
Have at it, Melo-lovers … The ceiling for a Melo-centric team is a season record a few games over .500 and an early round playoffs exit. The floor is finsihing right above the Nets.
That's not true at all with respect to TD
He really started stepping up AFTER the trade. We lost a bunch of bodies and his playing time went up, and that’s when he started taking more shots. His scoring average was much higher in March and April than it was prior to that.
I do agree that Landry and Amare were both thrown off by Melo’s arrival though, and neither has learned how to play with him yet.
Maybe they all just don’t thrive in a stand-around and watch Melo chuck it up offense with no true PG?? Aren’t "Star" players supposed to raise the levels of their teammates play?
I’m sorry cause that is exactly what Deron Williams has been doing in NJ since he got there, and he is one of the stars being discussed to remedy our shit like some miraculous savior!
sreh ladien e' ta janjia
by Lord Smackington on Jan 5, 2012 11:05 PM EST up reply actions
Well...
Two points regarding your recap (couldn’t agree more Seth):
-Zone makes sooo much sense. The zone was used in Dallas and Phoenix to cover both Dirk and Amar’e respectively. With most of the players we have it makes a lot of sense. We have Tyson who might be the best center for a zone (outside of Dwight). We’ve had two huge problems with defense: switching and the PF spot. Switching is just a game plan that has to be emphasized (to not do it so much!) but the PF spot is more because for some reason Amar’e loves letting scrubbing PFs have great games. I’m confident it’s all mental, but that’s something he NEEDS to fix.
-Also, the whole momentum thing is something I’ve noticed too. I’m pretty sure it’s because every single player on this roster keeps going for that “homerun” play whenever we start to gain momentum. I’m talking about big 3s usually and the culprits are TD and Melo. A made “double” is better than a missed “homerun.”
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